Provincial Council.

Lyttelton Times, Volume V, Issue 278, 30 June 1855, Page 3

Provincial Council.

Wednesday, June 27. Present — the Speaker, Messrs. Brittan, Packer, Fooks, Sewell, Hall, Ollivier, Westenra, Bhodes, Oookson, Dampier, Bray, Simeon, Thomson, J. Bealey. On the motion of Mr. Hall the Christ College Corporation bill was read a third time and passed. . ' The house then went into committee on the affairs of the Canterbury Association. Mr. Brittan said it would be iv the recollection of the Committee that in the resolutions which the house had recently passed upon the affairs of the Association, there was one which had reference to-the amount to be paid in order to secure the transfer to the Province of the 'property of the Association, in which the sum was ]eft blank. He proposed to take the discussion upon the several parts of the account which would enable them now to fill up that blank. He had laid upon the table of the house a paper which defined the liabilities of the Association under several heads. He proposed to take the items of that account seriatim. The first was an item of £17,905 13s. 5d., being the excess of expenditure up to June 30, 1853, which had been admitted by the Committee appointed last session to investigate these accounts. He would therefore move the adoption of that sum. Dr. Baukeu rose to second the motion, although he arrived at the conclusion that this settlement became desirable from a very different course of reasoning to his hon. 'friend. He believed the association had a claim in honour upon the province, but iie was prepared to dispute that claim in law. The Association had incurred a needless expense in their attempt to make private property of the reserves. They had by such means endeavoured to secure an estate in the colony which they, could not hold. They thought to obtain certain property against the grasp of the Crown, but no one ever yet heard of the Crown exercising control over those necessary reserves for the purposes of ro.ids, public buildings, churches and schools. He hoped that if the province acqui- ! red these reserves, they .would be held and dealt with only as town lands. He complained that they had been treated with great distrust', as it seemed to be the desire of the house not to enter into their past grievances he should refrain from opening up the question now. The shortest way was to take the amount as they found it, to accept the statement of the account as it was submitted to them by the agent of the Association, and pay the money. In the adoption of this course they would be acting, liberally and generously. If investigation was to be had, there were many sums iv those accounts which he should be compelled to object to. The vote was then agreed to. The next item in the account was the sum of £825 4s. Bd., being the excess of expenditure upon the supplementary account to December 31, 1854, which was'also agreedlo. Mr. Brittan then moved "a vole of £10,000 for the mortgage on the miscellaneous property. A desultory discussion ensued upon this item, but the vote was ultimately agreed to. On the^question that £2*,228 J2s."6d. be voten as interest for" money advanced for the uses of the Association, Mr. Hall said the committee had reported against this charge, and he wished to know why that recommendation was to be rejected. Mr. Thomson said there was no doubt that the principal was due—if so, so also was the interest. It might be said delay had been inter---posed in the settlement of the accounts. He would not pause to ask by whom, nor was it a matter of importance for them to consider whetner it w;is so or not. At any rate the Province was a gainer by it; for had these aff.iirs been settled last session they would now be paying 6 I>er cent, interest upon the deb', whereas it had hitherto been but 5 per cent. This motion was also agreed to. The total of these sums amounted to £30,959 10s. 7d., from which there was deducted a sum of £2020, which had been transferred by consent to the Ecclesiastical Fund, leaving a gross total of £28,939 10s. 7d. A discussion arose upon certain items which the Committee had proposed to deduct from this amount, as follows :— .' Further overdraft on Ecclesiastical £ s. d. *unds .. ... ... ... 974 12 6 •second commission on Emigration teceipis ... „. ... 939 06

Payments to New Zealand Journal 125 8 0 Petty disbursements to Mr. Felix „ Wakefield ... 85 12 0 Advances to Mr. F. Wakefield ... 162 10 0 Purchase of 200 acres for Quarantine ground. ... ... ... 500 0 0 Total... 2,787 3 0 Mr. Bhutan proposed to consider first the commission on Emigration receipts, £939. os. 6d. and, argued that although the committee had withheld their sanction to this item, he thought there was no doubt the money had been spent by the Association ; it was not now worth their time to enquire whether wisely or not; he would suggest that the amount should be admitted by the Committee, that they should take an enlarged and liberal view of the matter, and pass the vote. Mr. Barker thought they had agreed not to question these items, but to pass the.accounts lor the gross total they had arrived it. Mr. Sewell said he desired to explain how this item had grown up. It would be evident that in carrying out the extensive operations of the Association, it was of all things essential to employ efficient shipping agents. Mr. Bowler had been employed by the Committee of the Association to transact that business, but when he was on the eve of leaving England, it became necessary to engage another person, and Mr. Young was selected ; subsequently for reasons which were known only to the committee, they were induced to retain the services of that gentleman for a longer period, and that gentleman's services were given to the Association at great personal inconvenience. Whether they had acted wisely in doing so was another matter; he thought they had, hence the item in the accounts before the Committee. It was an item that could be defended with propriety. Capt. Simeon said he could bear testimony to the efficient discharge of the duties of the shipping agents of the association ; he was at that time Chairman of ihe Council ol'Cjloiusls, and could confirm the statement of the learned gentleman..

Mr. Packer . said as chairman of the Committee of investigation of these accounts, he 'thought there was but one course for them to pursue. It was to scrutinize these accounts with the minuteness of all commercial transactions; and in doing' so, they had rejected those items as objectionable. Having made their report, and assigned their reasons for the course they felt it necessary to pursue, their duty to the public ceased, it now became a question of expediency. He thought they need not reopen an inquiry into these accounts, that it would be far better to lake a magnanimous view of the case and pay the whole. The real state of the accounts was fairly before them, they knew the extent of their liability, they knew what benefits they had derived from the operations of the Association, —that they were in a prosperous condition, fully able to meet this liability,— therefore he would urge them to pay the account. Mr. Thomson moved, as an amendment, that the blank in die resolution alluded to, be filled up by the insertion of the figures £28,939 10s. 7d. Mr. Barker seconded the amendment. Mr. Dampier objeced to th« amendment because the.sum iucluded an amount which strictly belonged to the Ecclesiastical.Fund, this ought to be transferred to the proper account. He hoped to hear some satisfactory explanation of this item, as satisfactory as that in relation to the commission paid to the shipping agent. - Mr. Hali, thought they were bound to go into the accounts ; he urged it, as much as an act of justice to the Association as to his constituents. They ought in deference to the opinion of the committee of investigation to go into the accounts, and ascertain it there was sufficient force in their recommendation to justify their striking out these items from the accounts. The Association was in the position of Trustees for this settlement, and they had now to enquire if they were justified in these disbursements. It was in the nature of things almost impossible for that Committee to judge of the propriety of all these items from the difficulties surrounding them, in obtaining the necessary explanations of the circumstances which called for the expenditure, and for this reason they'had sanctioned many items in the accounts which were of great magnitude ; their objections were raised only to those subjects which ought never to have found their way iuto that state-

ment at all. These we?e the items on the paper now before the Committee. He had heard for the first time of certain confidential reasons for the retention of Mr. Bowler's services. He thought these reasons ought to have been assigned to the Committee by the agent of the Association, nor should he feel himself justified in sanctioning the vote until such a statement had been made. Mr. Hall proceeded to object to the other votes, particularly the sum of £500 for the purchase of the quarantine ground. He concluded by saying that he was not less sensible than other members of that house of the debt of gratitude they owed to the founders of the Association, but it was because of that sense that he felt the investigation to be necessary. It was, he was confident, the most satisfactory course for them, to pursue, alike for themselves as for the Association. After a few words from Messrs. Barker, Ollivier, and Thomson,— Mr. Sewell thought it would be probably a more satisfactory course if he afforded the committee what explanation was in his power upon the items under consideration. Having disposed of. the question of commission to the Emigration Agent, he found next in order the payment to the "New Zealand Journal." There had been no connection between the Association and the proprietors of that paper, beyond a contract for a limited time to take 200 copies of the paper. The Association had been assailed by the conductors of the "Australian and New Zealand Gazette," which was hostile to the interests of the Association. At that time an effort was made to revive the "New Zealand Journal," and while it had defended the operations of the Association, it also became a vehicle for communicating to the public thejproeeedings of the colonists. It was, therefore, deemed fair to extend to it that amount of support, and the papers so purchased were distributed through I the country. The committee, however, shortly afterwards agreed to discontinue this support, ■and the result was a personal loss of £16, in consequence of his continuing the order in defiance of the resolution of the committee. Next came the payment~to Mr, Wakefield. He believed that charge was a fair one ; it was com posed of various small sums, which in commercial parlance would be designated as petty cash disbursements. They were incurred in the inirmediate services of the Association, and were justly payable. Then as to the sum of £162. 10s. Mr. Felix Wakefield, they were aware, was employed in commission as their agent for land sales. He was to receive o per cent; the Association having undertaken to effect sales to the extent of £100,000. This contract continued in force for a time, when a new arrangement became necessary, consequent upon its inability to complete its engagements with the New Zealand Couinany. Mr. Wakefield had received a sum of £500 on account of commission, bur in consequence of a correspondence which he ad with Lord Lyttelton, it became necessary to get rid of him; unfortunately, there was this over draft of £162. 10s., on account of commission." The removal of Mr. Felix Wakeh'ald was deemed to be a matter of importance, and they determined therefore to sacrifice this sum rather than continue their engagement. If the com-

inittee ot the Association felt this step to be so essential, surely it was not now a. subject to be reopened and objected to by the Province. Then again, as to the purchase of the Quarantine Ground ; the J Association had made this purchase in England upon representations of its necessity received from the Province. How were they then to judge of its necessity? They followed their instructions; bat suppose it to be altogether objectionable, where had the money gone to, to what purposes had it been applied? Of the £500, £200 had passed to the Emigration Fund ; £200 to the Ecclesiastical Fund : and £100 to the New Zealand 'Company and oth.ur purposes. It was manifest, therefore, that the Province was only injured, if injury there was, ? to the extent of the latter sum. As regarded the' Reserves: if the extreme views which had been taken to their operations in this respect, were all founded oira sufficient data,he would then only . ask them wherein did the difference really exist, whether they obtained control over these reserves through the instrumentality of the Government at home, or through the functions of the Association ? At least it was theirs through the agency of the Association, and they would hereafter deal with them as Town Lands, unfettered by any liability to the New Zealand Company. Lastly, he would offer a few remarks upon t the "sum objected to as au amount strictly be-

louging to the Ecclesiastical Fund. He had been urged by the- Church-"Trustees to furnish a statement of the-amount which would pass to that account. Owing to the discovery of a wrong appropriation of certain portions of the ■revenues of the Association, he desired however to postpone doing so, until some agreement had been come to with the Gorernmentin reference to this property, and. when the whole accounts would be gone through. This course had beenobjected to, and, therefore, he had agreed to fix the amount as it stood in his own statement of accounts. The Trustees had a right to say they had closed the account, and therefore to decline reopening an investigation into the i items which formed it. Cast this item of £974. 12s.6d.A>ut, and where was he to look for a paymaster ? He would, however, shew the committee that it was not fairly chargeable to the Ecclesiastical Fund. Tt was composed of several small items, that had been weeded out of the •general account, comprising charges for salaries payable for the performance of other duties besides those of attendance to thai department, of, discounts and such matters, all of which were " fairly debited to the Miscellaneous : Account. Mr. Sewell, having enumerated several items, and urged that upon as close an investigation of the Ecclesiastical Fund accounts it would no doubt appear, that there were sums charged there, which in equal strictness were not chargeable to it, he thought, therefore, the one might be fairly said to balance the other. A division was called for, and the amendment was put by the Chairman, and carried by 10 to 3: Mr. Sewell having retired previous to the division being called for. The house then went into committee upon the Waste Lands' Bill. The several clauses ware finally read through .by the Glerk, and verbal alterations made where necessary. The only feature of interest in the discussion being a motion by Mr. Thomson to ' omit the clause which proposed to give land scrip, to persons who had paid their passage' money on emigrating to this Province. A very animated discussion arose upon the subject, in which the Speaker, Messrs. Thomson. Sewell, Bray, Barker, Hall, Rhodes, Ollivier, Dampier, and J. Bealey tock part, but for which we have no space. The clause was lost on a division being called for, the Nos. being 5 for it and 7 against it. The Speaker resumed the chair. The Waste Lands' Bill was then brought up by the Chairman of Committees and ordered to be printed. The bill will be read a third time on Tuesday next. After several notices of motion the house ;tdjouined at half-past eleven o'clock.