Provincial Council.

Lyttelton Times, Volume V, Issue 276, 23 June 1855, Page 3

Provincial Council.

Thursday, June 14. Present —The Speaker, Messrs. Brittan, Packer, Fuoks, Bray, Ward, Barker, J. Bealey, Hall, Sewell, Thomson, Westenra, Rhodes, and Ollivier. Mr. Hall brought up the report of the committee appointed to inquire into the bill for granting corporate powers to Christchurch College, Canterbury, which was read by the Clerk, and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Oixivier rose to move that the house proceed to the consideration of message No. 5, ofgHis Honor the Superintendent, in reference to a pecuniary acknowledgement, to the Chaplain of the council. He said the subject was one of great delicacy. It involved a very large question, in which there was great danger that they might fall into an unprofitable controversial discussion. -The house had agreed to a respect- ■ ful address to His Honor in recommending the subject to bis notice, but the answer they had received in the message before them involved principles from which they could not escape without a.reply. His Honor states that his compliance with the request of the house would involve the vrecognition of a state religion: that it opened the way for persons of other creeds applying for civil aid. He was altogether at a loss to understand where this connection existed. A state religion comprehends matters of a vastly larger scope than were comprised in the duties of the chaplain to that house. It involved creeds, doctrines, and endowments which were altogether irrelevant to the subject under consideration ; nor 'could he see why, having unanimously agreed that upon their deliberations the Divine Blessing should be invoked, and that, therefore, a minister of religion should be appointed; that in seeking to acknowledge the, services of that reverend gentleman, by a pecuniary payment, they were necessarily opening the door for further demands upon the civil power from ministers of other sects. What were the facts d{ the case ? The council, when first convened, had determined upon the appointment of a chaplain, and placed that appointment in the bands of the Speaker. , The office was provided for in the standing orders, but so soon as that appointment had been made, the chaplain became not the officer of the Speaker, but the officer of that house. And how had his services been acknowledged ? By votes of money, noj by votes of thanks, no; and yet he would say that no lion, gentleman had been so punctual in his attendance. Day'and evening sittings, through sunshine and storm, he was always at his post, discharging his duties with a regularity and zeal which must commend itself to the house. It was he felt most fitting that in a deliberate assembly such as theirs was, their proceedings should be opened with prayer, and there was abundant piecedent for it.' He believed there was scarcely an instance on record in which there was an exceptional case. But he would contend for such an appointment by reason of the oiigin of their settlement. , This province was founded by those who intended it to be a Church of England settlement, and should they, here of all "other places, ignore that first and chief duty. The eyes of those who had done much for them in England were upon them still, and they would watch with interest the developmentof Christian' principles. He would not touch further upon the subject. He hoped that it might be dealt with as much caution as possible; that while the discussion was kept within bounds free from a controversial character, so also it should be freed from personal asperity. He should have preferred the message of His Honor had it simply rested the case upon the absence of funds, but as it had been otherwise, it was to be regretted. He would Tead the resolutions, and leave them for the house to deal with :— 1. " That the council feels called upon to record its dissent from the opinion expressed in His Honor's message, that'a pecuniary acknowledgement for the services of the Chaplain would involve the recognition of a state religion. In adopting the resolution to which His tHonor refers, the council had no intention of W asserting such a principle, nor can it admit that this construction is one which the resolution will fairly bear. 2. "That the desirability of appointing a chaplain to the council, with a view to opening its proceedings with prayer,'was, after ample discussion, admitted by the council in its first session, and has been acted upon ever hince. lnat the council sees no v reason why the chap-

lain, any more than the other officers of the council, should be culled upon to render his services gratuitously. 3. '• That an acknowledgement for the services of the present chaplain is eminently dne to the regularity and the zeal with which, under every circumstance, those services have been rendered. 4. "That this council feels itself unable to agree in the opinion of His Honor that the appointment of a chaplain to the.council, for the i purpose of inaugurating its proceedings in a | fatting manner with prayer, involves the api pointtnent of a chaplain to the Superintendent. The council sees no analogy between the circumstances of the two cases. - • 5. " That this council, after careful consideration feels itself called upon to adhere to .the respectful request contained in the address of the sth inst., that His Honor be requested to place upon the estimates a vote of money, as an acknowledgement for the services of the chaplain to the council." , Mr. Haxl seconded the resolutions. They were temperate, firm, and dignified, and contained neither more nor less than the citcumstances of the case called for. The house is asked by His Honor's message to reconsider its vote, and the resolutions were the result. If they adopted any other courss, it would be tantamount to saying that their original decision was r a matter of form. The council had agreed to j open their proceedings with prayer, hence the appointment of a chaplain. 'It was a mere accident that bis services were gratuitous, but because they were so, they ha 1 no right to look for their continuance upon such terms, particularly in a colony where time was so precious. Nor should the house forget the amount of zeal which the reverend gentleman had shown in the discharge of his duties. It was not now a question whether they were to have a chaplain or not. , He could not agree however with the hon. gentleman that this was a Church of England settlement. It was to be regretted it was1 not; but whether it was or it was not, he should not feel disposed to advocate the maintenance of a state religion, such an union was not to" the advantage of religion. But it was nevertheless expedient that their deliberations should be opened by prayer. The assemblies of the United States were all opened by prayer, possibly by ministers of different persuasions, but that did not alter the fact; yet there it was not thought to be a" recognition of a state religion, it was there held to be merely a recognition of the principle that upon the deliberations of a legislative body the Divine Blessing" should be sought in a solemn and decorous manner. With regard to the resolutions themselves they were framed so carefully and were in atone that rendered it impossible to provoke offence. He thought the house ought to assert its opinions, even though they differed with His Honor, with firmness and decisiou, and he hoped there would be no hesitation on the part of the council in voting for them. * Mr. Bbay said he did look upon the vtote as an'afßrmation of a state religion, |if it could heir any other construction he should not have given it his support. He thought it most consistent with their Christian profession that in all their deliberations they should recognise the overruling power of an Almighty Being. It was in assemblies of that character that the passions of men were frequently developed, and therefore they needed that wholesome restraint which Christianity afforded. His Honor said 'that if the council claimed its chaplain, the goverument, hereafter, might also ask for a similar officer, —possibly it might; nor should be he a party to its refusal. If the Superintendent needed the services of that officer, :m arrangement might be made by which both departments could be served. Mr. Thomson thought the resolutions were both firm and temperate, and, therefore, he should support them. He agreed with the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hall) that.this setllementwas no longer a Church of England settlement, and he regretted it; but he could not see how far ils being so or not had any direct connection with the subject before the house. The question was that most simple one, whether, having a chaplain, they should acknowledge his services. It had been very truly said that his duties were discharged with a punctuality and zeal which was in the highest degree commendable. This then was the sole matter to consider. But as regarded the affirmation of a state religion, if he could see the smallest pretence for the supposed junction of chinch and state iv the motiou before

them, he should oppose it; but be could not. Mr. Beittan felt it was a matter of considerable pain that in a case of the kind before the house, his personal comfort was to be sacrificed to what he considered a public duty. If it had been a simple question of whether they were to have a chaplain or not to discharge this duty, there could be no-doubt of the answer. But hie could not shut out from his mind that in tin* instance there was an identification of the Governing Body with a particular sect: the question arose, therefore, was it wise ? They could not escape from the fact that there was in it, the recognition of a certain form of religion. The interference of the State had at all times been a fruitful cause of division, and he feared it might be so again, not immediately, but hereafter. He would suppose the Speaker should be a member of the Presbyterian church, or a Dissenting '.body, Fand* in the exercise of his power appointed! a minister of bis own persuasion. How would the case stand then ? It was the prayers he considered, not the minister uttering them. He should be perfectly willing to bear those prayers read by any one, but there were'many hon. members who he knew entertained ivery different opinions, , and therefore he should feel himself compelled to vote against the resolutions. He thought the public money ought not to be applied to such a purpose.' There was a means by which they might testify their esteem for the reverend gentleman, and still preserve themselves from any | collision upon the subject. He meant by private subscriptions. It had been said that it was not a recognition of a State religion, but it would be so looked upon out of doors, and knowing how sensitive men were on these subjects he would be no party to raising the cry. His hon. friend, the mover of these resolutions, says he sees no analogy "between the cases of a ' chaplain to the council, and a chaplain to the Superintendent. He feaied he had hardly looked at the question with that care which it needed, or he would have seen that His Honor was an estate in himself, as much or more so than the Council; surely if it was proper that the council should have such an officer, it was equally not less necessary for the other estate also. He feared the house was entering upon a course that would sooner or later involve them in religious controversy and discussion, which could only result in disunion and endless heartburnings. The message had been condemned because it had needlessly opened up these points for discussion, but he agreed withf His Honor that it was not sufficient that the vole of this house should be met by a simple negative. His Honor felt it to be his duty to place his opinion on the subject on record. Mr; J. Bealey said he thought the gist of the hon. gentleman's speech was to the effect * that an unpaid chaplain was not an acknowledgment of a State religion, while a paid officer was. The aigunients were mainly iv favour of prayer, but the objection was to the payment. To be consistent, he, thought the , objection should have been raised on the first (lay of the session. He was as stiongly opposed to a Slate religion as any one could be ; be thought they should be content to allow the question of sect to rest on its own merits ; at least, so he would have the Church of England tried. He oelievecl the Superintendent to be sincere in bis desire to advance the cause of true i elision, he had shewn this, he thought, in Auckland, nor had he leasori to change bis opinion. At die same time, he thought be bad taken a wrong view of the intentions of the house, and because he believed there was no disrespect intended in the resolutions befoie the house, he should sapport them. Mr. Packer thought the house was venturing upon very dangerous ground. He entirely agreed that their deliberations should be opened by prayer; yet he thought there was a mistake in the appointment. Peismially, he had the I highest regard?for the leveiend (gentleman, but his duty to the public demanded that he should protest" agaiust it. The proceedings of the house were closely watched out of doors, aud thcie was -already a string manifestation of feeling upon the "subject. The argnmeuts of hon. "gentlemen had proved to him that they would nut respect the appointment of the Speaker if inimical to ttieir own views. One hon. gentleman (Mr. Bealey) 'hinted Uiat the house would reveise it. This convinced him at once that it was fraught with danger—that it would be ultimately productive of endless strife and heartburning. He fully conemved in the opinion that this house had no higher light to ap-

point a chaplain than had the Government, but he should suggest the adoption of the course alluded to by his hon. fiieud, Mr. Brittau. If the house would hare such an officer, the best course was to pay him, not out of the public purse, but out of their own private funds. They would then have an opportunity of testing their sincerity. Dr. Barker said there was a wide difference between the cases of the Government and the Council. There was the duty of a private individual, and the duties of a public body. In the latter case, he held that the employment of a chaplain was a public recognition of "their duty, and subjection to an overruling Providence. The public had nothing to do with the appointment; it was a matter of'personal feeling with members of that 'house. All the public had to do with the matter was to satisfy ■themselves that their deliberations were influenced by a Christian principle. There was a iride'difference between the recognition of this principle, and the establishment 'of a State religion. » Mr. Oixivieb briefly replied. He was as much opposed to the establishment of a state religion as any hon. gentleman in that house. He thought the case was, as his hon. friend, Mr. Thompson had said, a very simple one. They had a chaplain—they received his services, and he was not remuneiated for his time. It was not a question of the appointment of that"officer, if it had been, he could understand the foice of much that h.id been said. The hon. gentlemen conducting the Government have said that there is a strong feeling on this subject' out of dpois. He was at a loss to understand the occasion for it; he had no reason'to believe that any man out of that house would hold to the principle that the^' labourer was not worthy of his lure." When he came into that house, he found the reverend gentleman discharging the duties of the office, and' he naturally asked upon what conditions? He thought v was not becoming the dignity of the'house to accept services of that character which were unacknowledged, and that was the reason why he had brought the subject before them. It was due to the reverend gentleman to say that no previous communication had been made with him upon the subject. His (the Chaplain's) first intimation of the intention was the notice on the orders of the day. The resolutions were then read by the Speaker and agreed to. After these resolutions, had been adopted, the House went into committee on the*. Waste Lauds' Bill, Mr. Tooks in the chair. Several clauses were agreed to. Upon the clause refeiring'to the question of pre-emptive rights being put by the chairman," there arose a very animated, but very desultory discussion, in which the members generally took part. On the suggestion -of- Mr.- Bray,'ah amendment was suggested, and another by Mr. Sewell. Ultimately, the "chairman suggesting an amalgamation of, and alteration "to, both, a series of- resolutions were piepared, which were left over for consideration until the follow? ins day. The Chairman reported progress. The Speaker having resumed, the house adjourned. ' Friday, June 15. Present, the Speaker, Messrs.' Brittan, Packer, Sewell, Westenra, Thomson, Barker, Pthodes, S. and J.-Bealey, Ward, Hall, Ollivier, Bray. Mr. Oxmvieb proposed that His Honor the Superintendent be requested to place a vote of £25 upon the estimates as an' acknowledgment for the services of the chaplain. ' :" Mr. Hald seconded the motion, which was agreed to without discussion. - The Christ College Corporation Bill was reada second lime on die motion of Mr. Hall. The house'then went into Committee of Supply, Capt. Westenra in the chair. Mr. Brittan rose to ask the sanction of the house to several sums which- had been expended during the past year in excess of the estimates-, enumerating several-. The house passed lnnn Votes m Oiie Sllin > "mounting to about The Provincial Council amendment Extension Ordinance was then read a third time and ' passed. The house went into committee on the Waste -Lands Bill, and was occupied the greater part oi the day in the consideration of the amendment on the clause having reference to the question of pre-emptive right. The clause as amended was ultimately passed. The

effect is to give to runhulden 250 acres of pre-emption upon .tlit homestead, and 50 acres upon all spots where improvements are , made. These rights can only be bought entire, but the occupier has the privilege of purchasing in blocks of 20 acres at a time if he chooses. The spot upon which pre-emption is laid down, is to be defined in writing, and recorded in the Waste Lands' office. Other clauses were then agreed to, when the chairman reported progress. The Speaker resumed. Mr. Bhutan stated that he should on Tuesday be piepaml to submit certain resolutions in reference to tlie'affairs of the Canterbury Association, an outline of which was as follows:— 1. That its powers be transferred. 2. That its property be conveyed to the Provincial Government 3. That provision be made for its debts to an amount of £- 4. The necessary sum to be raised by. debentures at 6 per cent. 5. An address to His Honor the Supeiintendent to send down a bill embodying these resolutions. Mr. Oliivier gave notice to move for leave to introduce an amended Fencing Ordinance. Tiie house then adjourned! Tuesday. June *19. present.— ; The Speaker, Messrs. Brittan, Packer, Fooks, Ward, Sewell, Simeon, Hall, Olliviei, Cookson, Barker, Hamilton, Thomson, Westenra, J. & S. Bealey, Bray, Blakiston, and Tancreck A message from his honor was read transmitting an impression of a seal for the use of the Province. fit A message from his honor was also read consenting to the resolutions of the Council to place a vote of £25 on the estimtes in acknowledge^ rnent of the services of the chaplain. t And also in refeience to a communication from Mr. Watson of Akaroa. * The Christchurch College Corporation Bill, haying passed through committee, was read, a third time. Mr. Olwvieb rose to ask leave to introduce an amended fencing oidinance. The existing ordinance "was insufficient, and only provided for the construction nf fences as between adjoining properties, and that, only imperfectly. There, had been considerable dissatisfaction felt by the announcement from the Government office in reference to this subject; the public wpre for- , bidden to continue the piactice heretofoie exist; ing of constructing their ditches upon the roadside.' A piactice which he was given to understand was jnstifiednot only by. custom, but had the sanqtion in the days of the early settlers of the authorities of the Land office. It was reasonable Jliat peisons should turn to the law so soon as this prohibition was issued, and,, there seek for insinuation as to the couise they ought to adopt, and having done so, t they found only a regulation which would apply, to adjoining i privatp properties, the inference from this be- i came natural, that the law which bound rae,n in their relations to each other, was of equal force as between individuals and the government which represented a collection of individuals, and hence the practice as regarded the system of roadside fencing. But he would contend that there was a public advantage in the construction of the ditch on the voadside. It was the first step to the construction of an efficient road, and was the most effectual means of draining it when made. Reference was now ordered to be made to the Provincial Engineer before any other works of the kind were to be permitted upon the public mads. He had heard, he could not say upon sufficient authority, that the engineer contemplated the construction of a footpath along side of the bank, then to allow a deep dyke between the path and the road, and the soil or sods taken from the dyke or slant might be used in the construction of the bank. He could not imagine this to be possible, for of what use for the purposes of protection against roadside trespass, was a bank alone, of 3ft. Gin. high. The only security against trespass was in the ditch and bank together. It was then to settle this vexed question, "thai hedesired leave to introduce an amendment to the existing ordinance, and to justify the construction of fences upon the public roads. Mr. Bray seconded the motion. The question was one of great importance to the occupiers of land'in the rural districts. A footpath alon«-------the road would be of little us,e, either to the public or to the occupier, if separated from the road by a watercourse. A ditch on the oiher

hand had the double .advantage of being an efficient protection against trespass, and an effectual drain for the adjoining land ; it was too the- first step' towards the construction,of a road. Under the existing ■ arrangement,^the engineer had.a perfect control over the diaina^e of the road by these ditches, but it would not be so if-those ditches were placed upon private properties, leave would then have to be obtained and compensation giveiv A large number of the roads already in existence had beeii made hard, and passable for drays by the-construction of those side-drainsalone. . Mr.' Bsittan would not interpose any objections to the motion, he believed the- measure to be very "desii able.- He hoped the hon. gentleman would be prepared1 to state what was tbe practice of the neighbouring provinces upon the subject, in order thai they-might make their ordinance as perfect as possible. He would'explain to the house the circumstances .which 'called for the interference of the government- They had found great encroachments upon the public roads, ditches of an inordinate width; ancl turf cut from the road without discrimination, and seiiously detrimental to the public interest ; to check this practice it was thought that the best course was-to submit these works to the decision of the Provincial engineer,"-in order that lie might bring matters to a satisfactory issue. Mr. J. Bealey said the practice was to grant permission to take theditchfrom the high roads which were a chain wide, but the prohibition intended to apply only to the roads of half a chain in width. Mr. Ham/ concurred in the great importance of-the subject which the hon. gentleman1 had introduced to the house. He would' suggest however lhat in framing the amendment to this ordinance, that the question of costs should' be considered as between adjoining properties. The ordinance required that,the right as between private iidividuals should be more clearly Aefined in reference to the option of constructing the ditch or throwing the soil on either, property. He thought gieat practical-inconvenience would result from the obligation to consult the Provincial engineer upon the subject. His- engagements were already beyond his power of con tTol, and.yet there was t<» be imposed upon him a task which if-propeily attended to would engross nearly the-whole'time of one individual, the engineer having' ruled that before any system of roadside draining should be'attempted, it was necessary to take the levels' of the country". People-required to know what the' law. allowed or disallowed, not what the Provincial engineer was prepared to sanction. The engineer thought there ought to be a'Bft path for pedestrians, and to accomplish this he would cut' off by a! water course, all access to the high road, he thought such a practice highly objectionable, the proper place to diain^the road Was the ditch'against the bank. Mr. Hamilton defended the course adopted by the Government in its announcements. Mr. Packer said the hon. .gentleman had undertaken a work of some difficulty ; he hoped the question would not be treated as.one having reference only to the iural districts,; any amended oidinance ought-to be made to', apply equally to the towns. He feared that if the soil to make ditches was allowed' to be taken from the road, there might be great difficulty, hereafter in recoveiiug for "the construction'of a footpath. Mr. SeweiJi. thought if any law was to be made which would apply to the" 4 Waste Lands of the Crown they ought to introduce a clause to that effect in their Regulations. After a few words from , Mr. Cooksox , the question' was put and leave given to introduce the bill. Mr. Packer brought up the 2nd report of.the afiairs of the Canterbury Association, which was read by the clerk. • ' [The debate on the introduction ,of the bill for settling the affairs of the Canterbuiy Association is postponedftill Wednesday.]