Provincial Council.

Lyttelton Times, Volume IV, Issue 210, 4 November 1854, Page 3

Provincial Council.

Tuesday, Oct. 31. Present.—The Speaker, Messrs. Hall, Buwen, Dampier, Cookson, Packer, Cass, Bealey. The Spkaker read a message from his Honor the Superintendent, requesting the Council would receive him at the council chamber, at 4 o'clock. His* Honor arrived shortly'after 4 o'clock, accompanied by the new members of the Executive, and proceeded to deliver the address, which appeared in our Wednesday paper. His Honor then retired. Mr. Hall rose to move that His Honor's address be printed. He said that hon. members would recollect that he had informed the Council, that His Honor had calledjupon him to form an Executive Council. The task was as unsought for by him, as it was unexpected by them. Had he consulted his own wishes, he should have declined the responsibility, but finding the necessary consequences of the non-formation of an Executive would be an immediate dissolution of the Council, and the postponement of several important questions, especially the co?nplete measure for the enlargement of the Council, and the question of the Waste lands, he was induced to persevere. He had now the satisfaction of informing the house, that he had succeeded in obtaining the co-operation of his friend the hon. member.for Christchurch. He had also been able to induce Mr. Gouland to join them. That gentleman's official experience rendered his services especially valuable, and he felt sure the Council heard with regret that it was his intention shortly to resign the office of Provincial Secretary. In addition to these gentlemen, he had been fortunate enough to secure the services of Mr. Gresson, a gentleman who although recently arrived in the colony, was well known to many of them for his legal acquirements. It was however due to the hon.

gentlemen opposite (Mr. Packer) especially on account of the prominent part he had taken in the passing of the bill which had brought about the crisis, to invite biro also to afford them the benefit of his practical knowledgeand experience, and he (Mr. Hall) thought that the hon. gentleman would have accepted office in common with those hon. gentlemen he had named; he had thought also that there would have been some benefit arising from the infusion of another class into their councils, for at the time he spoke to the hon. gentleman, but one class was then

represented ia the Executive Council. He (Mr. Hall) was however satisfied that they were influenced by but one motive in all their acts, and that the promotion of the general interests of the colony. He regretted to say that he was unable to induce the lion, gentleman to leave his snug corner; he supposed that there was something peculiarly soft and endearing in'the seat he occupied ; he seemed to have a strong antipathy to the hard ministerial bench; and all his efforts were unavailing, he was deaf to all his representations, but no doubt the hon. gentleman would justify to the Council the course he had chosen to pursue. He would pass to other topics. His Honor's speech spared him the necessity of going into the policy by which they were prepared to be guided. Their responsibility was attached only to the latter portion of the address, that referring to events which occurred subsequent to the formation of the'newExeeutive. He would state at once, that they did not entertain precisely the same opinion in reference to the mode of carrying out, under our circumstances, the principle of Ministerial Responsibility, which their predecessors had done. In older countries there exists a regular organization of parties; votes are more frequently given in support of a party than with reference to the measures under consideration, and one or two defeats indicate that the opposition is strong enough to carry on the Government. The parties then change places, and upon the late opposition devolves the duty of forming1 and carrying on the Government of the country. Here, there had been hardly any such thing as party-voting. He believed that measures had been judged of in that house entirely by their intrinsic merits, and he sincerely hoped that system might continue, but he could not shut his eyes to the fact that parties even here were forming and sooner or later would grow into importance. Until, however, such was really the case, he believed they would act most for the benefit of the Province, if they somewhat relaxed the regulation prevailing in older countries upon the occasion of adverse votes. If the Executive was to resign

upon every adverse vote, they must, under their circumstances, carry this resignation to the point when no Government could be formed, and they might then be bringing the very principle they so stoutly contended for into disrepute. There might be occasions when the differences between the advisers of His Honor and the Council would be so marked as to render it improper for them to retain office. Their resignations should of course immediately follow so soon as it was found that they did not possess the confidence of the Council, (and they could not carry the general policy which they considered best for the Government of the Province ; but short of this he thought that the resignation of the Executive ought not to be too hastily tendered, and indeed that it would not be approved of by the house. He felt it his duty to state these views distinctly at the outset of their ministerial career, lest they should be charged with undue tenacity of office, and because it was a fundamental principle upon which they ought at once to know whether they were at issue with the Council. There was another position to which he desired to draw the attention of the Council, the position of the Superintendent. At present, the voice of the people was not solely represented by that Council, it was also represented by the Superintendent, also elected by the people, as the man best qualified by talent, character, and experience in political matters, to stand at the head of the Government; it seemed, therefore, inconsistent that he should have no voice in the determination of the policj on which the Province should be governed. He would not now go into the question of whether the elective principle was a good one or not, in the case of an office like that of the Superintendent; it appeared to him alien to the spirit of the English Constitution, and there was a republicanlook about the place which did not, he confessed, commend it to his favour. The consequence of this arrangement, however, was that it became the duty of his advisers, not only to consider what policy would be acceptable to the house, but what measures would be agreed to by His Honor. So long as the office of Superintendent was elective, that officer must have a voice in determining the policy of the country, and inconvenient results could only be averted by the practice of great forbearance and moderation both by the Superintendent and by the Council. Mr. Plall then proceeded to notice briefly the measures alluded to in His Honor's address. In reference to the time at which the Waste Lands' Bill was to be brought forward, he stated that he had formerly expressed the opinion that the Council should first be enlarged, but this was not because he agreed with those who asserted that it was never intended to delegate the control to the Provincial Councils as at present constituted. He remembered the pledges given both by candidates for the General Assembly and for the Provincial Councils, and they were nearly all to the effect that they would advocate the immediate delegation of this control to the Superintendents and Provincial Councils. The enlargement of the Council, however, would give them the benefit of many shades of opinions now unrepresented, and prevent the probability of important decisions being arrived at by an exceedingly 'small number of members. There were also other reasons. Other opinions were, however, entertained in many quarters, and it was argued that there must necessarily be a delay of some months before the enlargement of the Council could take place, and that such a serious postponement of the Waste Lands' question was undesirable ; he thought it would better that they should at once place their plans beforejthe people, and if they were of opinion that they ought to proceed with it at once, he should be prepared to do so. With regard to the new bill to which His Honor had alluded, it was intended to meet the event of a dissolution. It was possible that when His Excellency received the Provincial Council Extension Bill, he might ..prefer to dissolve the house. In that event, it would probably be desired by the electors of the Christchurch Country District that fresh elections should take place according to fresh electoral dsitricts. The reasons for an alteration in the electoral districts would forcibly occur to every lion, gentleman present. If, however, no immediate dissolution took place, the enlargement of the Provincial Council must be under the Extension Bill. Mr. Hall concluded by stating they sought no favour if there was any fundamental difference of opinion between the Council and His Honor's advisers ; He hoped, 'however, that they might proceed

without a factious opposition, and that th measures they proposed would meet a fair an< impartial consideration. Mr. Beamy seconded the motion that Hii Honor's address be printed. At the request of Mr. Hall,, the Speakei read a message from His Honor to the eflecl that he had returned the Provincial CounciJ Extension Bill with certain alterations attached to it; they were marked in red ink, and to which he prayed the consideration of the Council. Mr. Packer rose to move that His Honor'j message be printed : it was necessary that he should do so, pro forma, before he could go into the question which had been raised by the hon. gentleman at the head of the Executive. The hou. gentleman has said that in all other assemblies they vote by parties, but that this house had hitherto been without party feeling, and if this be so, he has advanced a strong argument against the policy^rhich has been pursued by His Honor. TheTSill for the extension of thii Council was supported by as large ji number of members as are ever seen assembled in this house ; there was a great amount of discussion upon the subject—much reason adduced for the change—and a very considerable degree of warmth too ; and throughout all this, there wai but one alteration suggested in the measure. He hoped, therefore, the hon. gentleman correctly represented His Honor's views. Mr. Hall : I don't attempt to do so. Mr. Packee : Much sooner would he see a King Log or a King Stork than such a state of things that allows and justifies the overruling of a measure agreed to here, and then suppressed by the exercise of some unknown and unseen power behind the scenes. They were told that His Honor has suggested amendments to the Bill, but why were they kept in ignorance of them ? Why was not the Bill sent up to the Governor ? It would have got rid at once of the difficulty of considering the question of the Waste Lauds in so small a house, and it need not have interfered with any subsequent alteration in the electoral districts. Had the objection been as to the numerical addition, merely whether the house should consist of i*B or 24 members, it would have been easily overcome, and it would have been perhaps a step-ping-stone to more fully considering the question. Now they were to have a BUI which will necessarily involve them in petty warfare, and it seemed like shelving the Bill in order to allow of the introduction to the house of His Honor's own opinions, and unless something unusual was contained in it he should feel that it was an opposition to the voice of the people. It was for these reasons he refused to take part in tho Executive; he would not consent to stultify his vote by sanctioning the shelving of a measure which the house had unanimously agreed to. He believed that the Bill would accomplish what they so much needed—the introduction amongst them of various interests and shades of opinions; he had been accused of holding views antagonistic to the wool interest, but he had always endeavoured to regard all measures for their intrinsic merit, and not to allow party influences to operate with him ; if he was called upon to say what interest predominated in the house, he should say it was that of the stockowners. (No, no.) ;^He (Mr. P.) said Yes, yes, and the hon. geutlemau implied that he did not desire that the control of the Waste Lands should be delegated to this class. That BHi would have checked that influence: it might happen that it would lead to dissolution; at any rate, it was intended only as a preliminary measure. He hoped that* the amendments would justify the course which the hon. member had pursued. Mr. Packer then proceeded to comment upon certain points in His Honors address, and dwelt upon the suggestion of appropriating a member of the house to the office of Provincial Secretary, as well as upon the formation of his Executive Council: lie regretted that His Honor had not confined himself to those who had been long resident among: them, calling to his Council a~"gentleinun who was an entire strauger to them and to the colony, and could know nothing of their exigencies. Mr. Hall seconded the motion, and briefly noticed some of the points which had been raised by the hon. member for Christchurch. It had been objected that be had not stated the nature of the amendments proposed by His Honor. If the house desired it, he would read j them: it was intended to add one more member i to the Christchurch Country District, uiid to :

take one from Akaroa, and he believed that this alteration would be a fair representation of public opinion. The Speaker then read the resolution, which ■was carriedMr. Hall then rose to present a petition from the owners and occupiers of land on the Lower Lincoln Road, praying the Council to take intoj its early consideration the dilapidated slate of the road. He could bear personal testimony to the growing importance of that district, and he thought that every nerve should be strained to afford the relief the petitioners needed. It must entirely depend upon the condition of the exchequer. He would move that the petition be read by the clerk. Mr. Bealet seconded the motion, and the petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Dampieb. rose to propose a resolution— " That this house having received from Captain Muter a present of a new chagt of the countries of Birmal and Turkey shewing the seat of war with Russia, the thanks of this house be communicated to him. " Mr. Hall seconded the resolution. NOTrCES OF MOTION. Mr. Hall to move that on the adoption of a motion that a Bill be read a first, second, or third time, the title only of such Bill shall be read. Also, to move that the Council do now resolve itself into a Committee of the house to consider the Provincial Council's Extension Bill. Also, that leave be given to introduce a Provincial Council's Bill. Also, to move the appointment of a Library and Printing Committee. Mr. Hamilton to move for copies of any correspondence between the Provincial Government and the Registrar of Deeds relating to any complaints made against that officer for not completing the Registry of Deeds deposited in his office. Also, for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Auctioneers' Licensing Ordinance. Also, for a return of Revenue and Expenditure of the Provincial Government from the 1st October, 1853, to 30th September, 1854, distinguishing the different branches of Revenue, and the Expenditure of the several departments, under the head of Salaries and Incidents. Also, for a return shewing the liabilities of the Provincial Government at the end of the past quarter; also, the probable amount which will be required to meet all engagements now incompleted, but entered into since the 1st of October, 1854, distinguishing ordinary and current expenses from those of an unusual nature. Mr. Hamilton also gave notice that he would, upon an early day, put a question to the Government relating to the Civil List and its expenditure on the Maories. Also, that he will ask whether any steps have been taken to lay out new road lines in this Province. Also, what steps have been taken with regard to the Rakaia Ferry. Also, to ask the Government whether any steps have been taken, or are in contemplation, for producing better accommodation for lunatics, or whether it is proposed to remove them to Wellington Asylum. Also, to move that the Council do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole house to consider the necessity of amending Standing Order No. 60-that the Sounding Orders with reference to the passing of Bills, shall not be suspended unless the Speaker and six members be present, and vote on a motion for their suspension. Wednesday, Nov. 1. Present—The Speaker, Messrs. Hall, Bealey Dampier, Cookson, Packer, Hamilton, and Bowen. Mr. Hall moved that the house go into Committee to take into consideration the amendments suggested by his Honor the Superintendent in thetProvincia! Council's Extension Bill. Mr. Dampiek rose to object to that course. It w;is a subject of far greater importance than would at first sight appear; it was in fact a question involving and perilling the rights and privileges of this house, and he now thought our rights and privileges should be most jealously maintained. His Honor, for the reasons he hiid stated in his address, although declaring his Ail] concurrence in the extension-of the council, had in fact arrested the progress of this bill, ami now sent, it back to the house for

amendment. This was a course whichjhis Honor, ifintendedasan exercise of right,had nopower to do,thebillbeing of that class(theextensionof our Council,) which by the 27th clause of the Constitution Act was expressly taken out of his control by the last proviso in that section ; the previous proviso in the same section, authorizing the Superintendent to make amendments such as he should think needful or expedient, be (Mr. D.) conceived related to that class of eases only in which the Superintendent, by declaring his assent, would give operation to the bill in the province until disallowed by the Governor, an inference which whs decided from the words in that section, "upon declaring his pleasure in regard to any bill so presented to him:" the last proviso making it imperative on the Superintendent to transmit such bill, expressly declaring that it " shall be so reserved as aforesaid." If therefore his Honor had a right to send back the bill for amendments as often as he should think proper, he would virtually have the power to disallow the bill altogether by proposing amendments ad infinitwn, which evidently was not intended by the 'Constitution Act, which expressly directs that such bills passed by the Provincial Council, should be reserved for the Governor's assent. He concluded therefore it was a question of privilege and not of right, and he protested against the asumption of such power by the Superintendent as a matter of right, and particularly in bills of this character which were questions lying between the Crown and the People. He was willing however to receive and to treat the message in virtue of their privilege, and so to consider the suggestions of his Honor, for it might be that the council had made some gross blunder which they would be as anxious as his Honor to correct; but such a question should be first vindicated by the whole house, and the several amendments considered seriatim in Committee, if the house determined on the propriety of again discussing them. Mr. Dampier then observed upon the amendments themselves, and found them to consist of two only: the first, of a mere technical character, altering only the phraseology of one of the clauses; and the second, for restoring the number of new members assigned to Christchurch country district, and to Akaroa respectively, to that which was originally proposed in the bill as brought in by the hon. member for the town of ■ Christchurch, Mr. Packer, which in this respect was after very mature, deliberate, and full discussion, amended and passed as the bill now stood; expressly in order to maintain the bill on principle, without assuming to vary the existing principle of representation in the absence of evidence or inquiry, the entering on of which would defeat, the entire object of the bill, that being the immediate extension of the Council without embarrassing the Government; and to be brought into operation before these most important questions were to be discussed, and which were of the most vital importance to the colony, and in the consideration of which the country and the Council desired to have new blood and new minds. He (Mr. Dampier) had expected to find some other more important amendment, such as the extension of the Council from 24 to 36 members, and this he should have been prepared to support, leaving it to the Government at the proper time, and when they should have had the opportunity of well considering the division of the whole known country into districts, to have brought in their great Reform Measure, in regard to the distribution of suchjrepresentation. which at best can now be only very partially effected, and would be much better'considered in a Council of 24 than of 12. The amendments suggested have already been most carefully considered in this Council,"and maturely deliberated, and the principle of the Bill having'in its present j form been, he might say, unanimously adopted by the House (for the only dissentient had declared his approval of the measure itself, though not the mode of passing it) ; he (Mr. D.) feltcsiljetl ' upon to propose the resolution which he should now submit to the House, and which he read as follows :—

"This Council having taken into consideration the message of His Honor the Superintendent, dated Oct. 31, 1854, No. 3, returning lo them the Provincial Council Extension Bill with amendments, for their consideration! Itesolve, that it is inexpedient under the circumstances to alter or amend the Bill as suggested, and that an address he presented ;to His Honor, urging that he will

immediately transmit; the bill to His Excellency the Officer administering the Government, for his assent, in order to briny the bill passed into immediate operation in the Province, it being imperatively provided by the Constitution Act that all bills of this nature passed by the Provincial Council shall be reserved for the Gover-

nor's assent."

Mr. Packer rose to second the amendment. He had heard no sufficient reasons assigned for the course His Honor had pursued in retumin"this bill. Had His Honor sent for him, his first question would have been, what has been done with the bill? and he would not have been a party to its being withheld. Neither could he consent to sit in council with those who had ignored the proceedings of the House in reference to that Bill. They had established a dangerous precedent, and he feared too'that its effects would be pernicious. It was a proceeding which he could only consider as being far from creditable; he would not pretend to go into the legal reading of the act, but taking a common sense view of it, he was of opinion that the Bill never ought to have come back to them.

Mr. Cooksos said that he fully agreed in the opinion that had been expressed'upon the strict legality of the course which His Honor had pursued ; notwithstanding this, he felt that the House had expressed its opinion strongly upon the question, and he should support the'amendment.

Mr. Bealkx stated that the chief point for consideration was the legal difficulty which arose out of the Constitution act. He contended that it was impossible to put such a construction on it as would justify the charge which had been preferred against His Honor of having kept back this bill contrary to the power vested in him, and he was borne out in this opinion by the advice which had been given by their legal adviser. The original defining of the electoral districts was based upon numbers, but in the measure before the house that principle had been departed from, and he could see nothing to justify giving 4 members to Akaroa.

Mr. Hall read the 27th clause of the Constitution Act, and proceeded to comment upon it. There were two points to consider—the legal right, and the propriety of the act. If the legal right to return the bill was admitted, there was an end to the question. The propriety of the act might be discussed when the Bill was in Committee. For his own part, he believed that His Honor possessed the legal right to return the bill, he thought they had no right to call in question the propriety of the .act, as for that act he was responsible to the people at large, whom he represented. It had been said that he appeared to evade the responsibility of the retention of this bill. He had already stated that the steamer had left and the bill was retained when he was called to His Honor's Council. He had, therefore, no responsibility whatever in the matter, and the hon. gentleman, the member for Lyttelton, must have heard this statement.

(Mr. Dampier said if he made use of the word " evade" it was with no intention to offend, he should rather have said, the hon. gentleman repudiated the responsibility). Mr. Hamilton said he congratulated the hon. gentlemen on the ministerial bench for having adopted opinions so nearly identical with those of their predecessors in office. He hoped they would continue the course they had begun, and they might then rely upon receiving their support. He felt no doubt whatever of the Superintendent's power to send back the bill. They were not all lawyers, and all they could do was to read the Act, and to bring a common sense interpretation to boar upon it. If he entertained a doubt upon the subject he should give it in favour of the Superintendent, who, being the elected of the people, stood in the position of an Upper House, and had a duty to perform which belonged to the whole body. If he exceeded the powers deputed to him, they had a remedy by appeal to the Crown to remove him from his office.

Mr. Dampier, in reply, stated that it was of the utmost importance Unit they should proceed with consistency, and in strict obedience to the law. Ho believed that the returning ofihe bill was contrary to law, as it was in violation of their Standing Orders. No. 55 of these Orders provided that when a bill had been passed by that house, it could not again be introduced into that House during the Session. (Cries of •' Order" and "Question.") The Spkakbu reminded the hon. gentleman that he should confine himself to the task

upon a numerical basis. Had this course been

I rightly pursued, Aknroa, which had a constitu- £ ency of 58, would only be entitled to 2 meni- , beis, the proportion being- one representative to I every 30 electors. He did not consider there '»{ was anything in the position of Akaroa which justified so large a departure from the plan ki which appeared to be laid down for their quits dance. Akaroa could put forth no claim either £| upon the gTound of its superior intelligence or |Jt the position of its inhabitants to sanction so H much larger a share in the representatives than j/s the Christchurch Country District, which would j]> possess only 8 members with an electoral roll k \" exceeding 300 voters.

Mr. Bealey seconded the resolution. He agreed I" in what had heen said by his hon. colleague; he T thought that the great preponderance proposed to f be given co Akaroa, was an evidence of that hasty g legislation of which there had been so much comII plaint.

>r Mr. Packer suggested that as the hon. gentle- || men hud taken upon themselves the responsibility I of altering the bill, he could not understand why * they had not acted upon the numerical principle I, they were contending for. If it was right to shut if out Akaroa from the doubling principle, why not at $ at once retain to Akaroa two members, and give to | the Christchurch Country District ten members. Mr. Hamilton agreed in the suggestion of the hon. member for Christchurch, but he complained that they were attempting to legislate without investigation. Why had not the Electoral Roll been produced? The principle laid down in the bill before the house was simply to double the representation, and this was all they had to consider. He was not disposed to accept any hearsay evidence; he should require the production of the Electoral Rolls before he came to any conclusion based upon them. They were most unsatisfactory, and he believed there were many qualified to vote whose names did not appear there. He was of opinion, that from first to last the whole measure had been pushed forward with indecent haste ; and if there was no intention to act with caution, they should at least be careful to confine themselves to the principle which they had already affirmed. Something had been said about the apathy of the representatives for Akaroa, but would the hon. gentlemen consent to hold their sittings there, or would they do so at Lyttelton then? If so, he believed they would find that it was not quite so convenient even for the hon. members for Christchurch to attend to their duties. He would support the bill as it was originally sent up, and for the simple reason that a proper measure was promised to them. Mr. Dampier said he should vote against the alteration.

Captain Simeon had not been in a position to |record Ms opinion upon this I>i 11 before. His colpeagues had stated t!ie reasons for tlieir resi;;iuition, Ibiit he had nut been able to io so. lit: agreed in

the principle, but he would have opposed the bill altogether, because he thought that upon a measure" involving so large a change the opinion of the people should be taken by means of a dissolution. He had always advocated that expediency should never overcome principle, and the bill before them did so. He agreed in the opinion that in the framing of such a measure there should have been a full investigation of the Electoral Roll. If the numerical system was intended to be adopted, it should have been adhered to closely, lie feared that if four members were to be given to Akaroa now—while under the new Bill which they proposed to introduce,^ there would be but two,—it would he a great indignity. He disapproved of the Bill genprally, but should support the resolution. Mr. Hall replied he had listened attentively to the speech of the hon. member the Collector of Customs; he had made a forcible address to them, and called for enquiry, but he could not understand what he required. Great stress had been laid upon the injustice done to Akaroa ; in his opinion greater injustice would be done by giving 4 members instead of 3. As it seemed to be the dtsire of the house to obtain further information, and to have an opportunity afforded it of investigating the Electoral Roll, he should move that the Chairman report pro-

gress. The Chairman put the question,—"That the Chairman report progress," which was negatived.

The resolution was then put to the committee, which was also negatived.

The Speaker having resumed the Chair, Mr. Hall moved that leave be given to introduce the Provincial Government Bill. He stated it was not his intention to go fully into the merits of the bill. Supposing, however, the Provincial Council Extension Bill to be sent to the Governor, it was possible that His Excellency might not think fit to allow it; and be might, determine upon a dissolution of the house. It was not expedient that a General election should take place upon an arrangement so utterly inefficient as had existed under the old bill. The Bill before the House was drawn to come into operation only in the event of a dissolution, and it was intended to send it up to the Governor with the other measure.

Mr. Bowen seconded the motion, which was carried.

Mr. Hall moved the appointment of a Library and Printing Committee, to consist of Messrs. Hamilcon, Bealey, Dampier, and Hall.

Mr. Hamilton gave no.ice of a motion upon the subject of Auctioneers' Licenses.

The House then adjourned,