GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Lyttelton Times, Volume IV, Issue 189, 19 August 1854, Page 8

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

{Debates continued from our lasi Number.'] HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Monday, June 5. The House met at eleven o'clock. notices of motion.

Mr. Macandkew, with permission, would make au addition to his notice of motion relative to the Colonial Bank of Issue, which stood for Friday, the 9th instant. He then] renewed his notice as follows :—

For a return shewing the even profits of the Colonial Bank of Issue ; also, the even expenditure connected therewith, since' the commencement, also, the amount of its notes in circulation on the 31st of December in each year, and on the 30th of April, 1854, the amount of Coiu in the coffers at these dates, and the amounts invested and where; specifying the number of transactions which have taken place (during any one month that may be selected) at every branch of the Bank ; also, the names (if practicable) of the parties who have deposited or withdrawn sovereigns from the Bank in the course of the said monthly operations.

Mr. O'Neill begged leave also to amend his motion relative to certain resolutions of the Auckland Provincial Council, so as to confine it to the subject of the Waste Lands only. He then gave notice that on Wednesday, the 7th instant, he would move—

That the Speaker be instructed to communicate with his Excellency the Officer administering the Government, prayingthat as soon aspracticable there be sent down to this house a Bill embodying so much of the resolutions relating to the Waste Lands, as was agreed to by the Provincial Council of Auckland on the 2nd of February last.

Mr. E. G. Wakefield gave notice that should the motion before the house be carried, he would on Tuesday move-

eesponsible government,

The adoption of a respectful address to the Officer administering the Government, praying that amongst the objects which this house desires to see accomplished without delay, both as an essential means whereby the General Government may rightly exercise a due control over the Provincial Government, and as a no less indispensable means of obtaining for the General Government the confidence and attachment of the people, the most important is the establishment of ministerial responsibility in the conduct of Legislative and Executive proceedings by the Government.

Order of the Dat. Responsible Government.—Adjourned

Debate,

Mr. Carleton said, —Sir, I can perceive that the debate is drawing to a close ; that the subject has been almost entirely exhausted by those who have previously addressed the house, and that there is a growing impatience to divide. I had intended to have addressed you at some length upon the question. I had been prepared with a long array of arguments in demonstration of the necessity that exists for establishing the principle of Ministerial Responsibility, by introducing a certain measure of it, however small, into out- Colonial Executive without delay. But in nearly all of these I have been forestalled, and shall therefore restrict myself to the examination of points which have been incidentally raised in the course of the debate. It might be expected, indeed, that as seconder of the Resolution moved by the hon. member for the Hutt, I should first render cause for the faith that is in me. I will therefore do it in the fewest possible words. I give my unqualified suppoit to the introduction of Ministerial Responsibility, not from perceiving insuperable difficulties to passing bills through the house without it— though I admit that they are grave and numerous—not because of any such practical inconveniences, but because the principle is English. I would model New Zealand upon England. I would reproduce, to the extremest verge of possibility, the noble institutions of the mother country. I would cany out the Constitution Act, not alone according to the letter, but according to the spirit in which it is framed. This, Sir, is my main object; but I have also a collateral object. I wish to relieve the natives from the injustice and corrupting influences to wlucH they hare been subjected up to the present time, by placing them at once under the protection of their best friends, the settlers.

For T maintain that almost every difficulty with the natives has originated with the Government. It is the Government that has precipitated every catastrophe. It was the Government that organized and led the fatal expedition to the Wairau. It was the Government that ordered the silly, but mischievous, bravadoing at Tauranga. It was the Government that quarrelled with Heki in the north. It was the Government that, through ignorance of native custom, and in spite of solemn warning, caused the first murder at the Hutt. It was the Government which provoked the Wanganui war, by hanging a Wanganui native —a prisoner of war, at Porirua. Nevertheless, in spite of these facts, Governor Grey had the effrontery to insult the settlers at Wellington, by declaring that if any share of the management of the natives were entrusted to them, they would foster war for the sake of profiting by commissariat expenditure. Here is misgovernment enough. Let us now turn to the corrupting influence of irresponsible Government upon the natives. Would it be credited elsewhere than in New Zealand, that the Government deliberately hold out an official premium upon native immorality—that the Government confiscates the land of a native woman who shall have been lawfully married to a European subject of the Queen, but suffers her to retain the land where she lives in concubinage with a European ? But the hon. member for the Northern division objects to Ministerial Responsibility, because, forsooth, it would relieve the natives of such guardianship as this. Would it be credited, elsewhere than in New Zealand, that the Government, almost from the date of Governor Grey's arrival, has been striving to break down that natural instinct of honour—of scrupulous adherence to agreement, by which the natives were once so remarkably distinguished; tempting them by money—not always without success, to repudiate the sales of land which they had made in early times ? But the hon. member for the Northern division objects to Ministerial Responsibility because, forsooth, it would relieve the natives from such guardianship as this. Would it be credited, elsewhere than in New Zealand, that a native, owing money to an European, able and willing to pay in real property, but not able to pay in coin, is liable to be cast into jail; lam not putting a fancy case ; if the hon. member for the suburbs were in his place, be could depose to what has taken place with regard to Ruinga, of Waiheki. But the hon. member for the Northern division objects to Ministerial Responsibility because, forsooth, it would relieve the natives from such guardianship as this. lam indeed astonished that "the great hobgoblin fallacy" put forth by Governor Grey—himself the sole and only breaker of the treaty of Waitangi—should be seriously put forward by one who in former times had lent such effective aid in overthrowing the delusion. To pass from this to another subject. The hon. member for the Northern division has spoken of" the great benefit which his Excellency, in defiance of all personal considerations, had conferred upon the colony by calling the house together," and of " the assurance that his Excellency might rely upon the honour and generosity of hon. members, who, from these motives, would be very careful in the exercise of the powers conferred upon tbem, to abstain from every act that would tend to increase the difficulties of his Excellency's position." Sir, I confess myself unable to perceive those difficulties, or to appreciate the grave responsibility which is supposed to have been incurred. Let us give his Excellency all due credit for the course he has pursued. Whatever may be his shortcomings on other matters, in this he has done his duty as a man and a soldier, and it will assuredly be remembered to him. But where are the difficulties ? where is the responsibility ? His Excellency had no choice but to adopt the course be took. Would the hon. member suppose the possibility of his Excellency breaking the law? Would Governor Grey's "breach of the law, in neglecting to summon the Assembly, have been excuse for Colonel Wynyard's continuing to break the law? Far from incurring responsibility, he has saved himself from the gravest responsibility. Those who praise him so inordinately for complying with the law, seem to entertain but a dim and oblique view of the difference between right and wrong. Indeed, Sir, his Excellency has already been treated with the greatest confidence by the House of Representatives. Instead of quietly

passing the Bills provided for by the Constitution Act—bills in answer to the 24th and, 72nd' clauses—theonetaking possession of the revenue the other of the land—instead of passing these bills immediately on art-rival, and then, having secured the locus standi, the hbs ttow arm of Archimedes, raising the cry of Ministerial Responsibility, instead of playing this more politic part, they have resolved upon foregoing the manifest advantage that might have been thus obtained, and on throwing no difficulty in his Excellency's way beyond that of collision with the representatives of the colony committed to his charge. I shall now pass to another argument put forward by those who object to the resolution under consideration of the committee. They do not oppose the principle—not they ; for it is the fashion to affect liberality now-a-days, which is perhaps the reason why I, a staunch couservative, am so much out of fashion. They do not oppose the principle, but would rather see the practice postponed for a while. They wish—borrowing a favourite phrase with Governor Grey, for " gradual introduction." Now, I myself was at one time something touched with that delusion. When Lord Grey's foolish and impracticable Constitution of 1846 was received in New Zealand, I took strong part against it; in fact, I had the honour of leading off the ball. I took this part mainly on account of its inherent absurdity, and of the breach of treaty contained in the instructions; but partly because I thought that the colony was not yet ripe for representative institutions. But I was young in the colony then, and have learned a lesson since—or rather have been taught a lesson by my very keensighted friend—the present superintendent of Wellington. The Wellington members will recollect the time when Dr. Featherston made his memorable declaration to Governor Greythat " the longer the colonists were kept without Representative institutions, the less fit they would be to enjoy them." Time has proved the truth of the assertion ; and I also will say, iv a parallel case, that the longer the colonists are kept without Ministerial Responsibility, the less fit will they become to exercise the powers conveyed. I will now bestow a few words upon a question which appears to have seriously affected the minds of some of my Northern colleagues. Sir, I should be deeply grieved to see the seat of government transferred from Auckland to another province. Such transfer would be a breach of distinct agreement. Settlers embarked their fortunes here upon the pledge that Auckland was to be the permanent capital of New Zealand. They absolutely bought and paid for the capital. At the very first day's land sale, £24,000 was paid for town allotments—to say nothing of large sums afterwards poured in—upon the faith of the promise made by Government. The money, as usual, was squandered, and Auckland was nearly ruined. For the settlers had drained themselves, under the allurement of the name of capital, of the greater portion of their available means. Auckland was at the last gasp, when she was recovered by Governor Fitzroy's remedies, waiver of pre-emption, and the issue of debentures. Both these measures may have been of noxious nature in themselves, but they suited the occasion ; they acted like stimulants administered to a sick person in collapse. Auckland recovered, and has now waxed strong and flourishing ; but she bad not the less been upon the point of extinction through having paid too dearly for a name. The change of the seat of government is a deeply important question ; but I am really unable to perceive any direct connection between such change and Ministerial Responsibility. An indirect influence indeed, in hhe long run, I am constrained to admit. New Zealand will be governed from the residence of the Governor, wherever that may be; and the residence of the Governor can scarcely become a ministerial question. It appears to me that he will be able to please himself. But admitting the direct connexion of the questions—admitting that the seat of Government must be changed if Ministerial Responsibility be introduced, there is yet another point to which I would call the attention of my Northern colleagues. If we oppose the introduction of Ministerial Responsibility on that ground, let us well consider what we are contending for. Not for the seat of Government—that would be a prize worth fighting for, —but for one or perhaps two years' tenure of the seat of Government. For Ministerial Responsibility must be ; it cannot be kept back beyond a certain time; and then, according to

the hypothetical argument, away goes your seat of government. Better admit the introduction of Ministerial Responsibility at once, and have the satisfaction to feel, that though losing one year's tenure of a name for the Province, you have acted rightly for the colony. I have now to touch upon a more delicate subject, in which I crave the indulgence of the Committee. I have seconded the resolution proposed by the hon. member for the Hutt, and was much gratified at being asked to second it. But I wish ,to guard against being supposed to coincide with all that had been said by the mover, in the masterly argument in which he had introduced the question. The hon. member for the Hutt, speaking in that spirit of conciliation which invariably distinguished him, had used these words:—r" That we should not think of ripping up the past —that we should act unwisely in looking into past transactions—that byegones should be byegone—and that we only ought to consider the business of good government for the future." For, indeed, he feared the opposition of those who feared the exposure of past delinquencies. Now, Sir, I cannot suffer this to pass. The honourable member must surely have forgotten that there are good and worthy men, whose characters have been traduced, who are stillfunder a cloud, in consequence of the falsehoods contained in the despatches of Governor Grey, In this matter, every member of the New Zealand Legislature has a duty to fulfil, not to be pretermitted from motives of expediency. They are bound in honour to use every endeavour to elicit the truth with regard to past transactions, and never to relax their efforts until these men, one and all, shall have been amply and definitively vindicated from the calumnies with which they have been assailed. I have touched upon this most important point but lightly, being aware that the occasion is premature ; but feel that I should have failed in my duty had I suffered the observation to pass entirely without remark. Neither would I hold out promise of compensation as an inducement to cease from opposition. If we are to win the question, let us play the highest game. Let us win it upon its own merits, not by way of bargain with officials. When the time came, the house will do them justice. I have already stated that in nearly all the arguments which could have been adduced in direct support of the resolution, I have been forestalled. One alone remains to me, and that is merely of secondary force. I find Representative Provincial Government provided for by the Constitution Act. Should a superintendent transgress his powers, or otherwise give cause for censure, the remedy is at hand— he is at once removable by petition of his Provincial Council. For a wrong there is an immediate remedy; all, in fact, that Ministerial Responsibility is expected to give. Why, then, is not Ministerial Responsibility equally provided for the colony ? in order, as |I fbelieve, that the colony should take it. The less important machinery has been provided by the framers of the Act—the more important they have invited the Colonial Legislature to make provision for, lest the machinery contrived by themselves should prove ineffective Fto its end. They indicate a principle; they lead the way ; it is for us to follow it up. Indeed, they could not but have perceived how much less necessary was the check upon the Superintendent than the check upou the Governor. For the Superintendent is supposed to be the man of popular choice, with whom the Provincial Council is almost sure to agree; for Council and Superintendent are of similar origin. They are twin brothers, the offspring of the people. But there is no security of harmonious action with a Governor ; and we have been taught by years of misrule and illegality, by bitter experience, that a check is imperatively required. The framers of the Act must have intended that we should adopt the principle of Ministerial Responsibility to our peculiar circumstances. They never could have so far stultified themselves as to send us out a complicated piece of machinery, without sending the key to wind it up, and set it in motion, unless they wished that we should forge the key for ourselves. Representative institutions, without Ministerial; Responsibility, would indeed be the play of Hamlet without the part, degenerating" from drama into farce (cheers.)

Mr. Ludlam said—Sir, I think it would be extremely unwise in this house to adopt the course recommended by the honourable member for the Northern Division in the amendment he has brought forward to the effect of

referring the question of Responsible Government to a Select Committee of this bouse, for their report would at least be to cause considerable delay, and, in my opinion, be the means of shelving the settlement of it over this session, particularly when I find in the latter part of the honourable member's amendment a recommendation to this house to proceed in the meantime in legislating on questions of the most vital importance to the colony. Sir, if by referring this question to a Select Committee any new light'could be thrown on it, it might be a wise course; but after the many able speeches that have been delivered by honourable members, I do not think that any more calm or deliberate plan could have been adopted than that of discussing it in a Committee of the whole house. With this opinion, I shall certainly vote against the amendment of the honourable member. Sir, with regard to the resolution brought forward by my honourable friend the member for the Hutt, I can only say that, after his able and explanatory speech on the principles and working of ministerial government, be has left little or nothing to be said in its support; but I feel it my duty as a member of this house, as well as my duty to those I represent, that I should state my opinions in support of the vote I intend to give on this question. The question of Responsible Government will be admitted by all to be the most important one that will ever be discussed within the walls of this house—and upon its satisfactory settlement much of the future good working of our new constitution will depend. We are met for the first time under a new system of Government, so far as regards New Zealand. We have a house of Representatives purely elective, and one of our first acts should [be to devise some means whereby this house may work in harmony with the head of the Government. The honourable member for the Hutt has submitted to us a resolution for establishing Ministerial Government as the best means of procuring that harmony. No one doubts that the system is a good one—and that if the Government were represented in this house by some of its Executive Officers possessing the confidence of the house, that harmony between it and the head of the Government would exist. The objection to its present adoption in the minds of a few honourable members is, that we do not possess the materials in this country to carry it out. It will be remembered by some honourable members of the Province of Wellington that when the question of Responsible Government was debated in the.Council of that Province, I expressed a fear that there was a want of men to carry such a system into successful operation ; but although I had those fears I did not feel myself justified in voting against it being tried. The system has been tried in that Province, and our honourable Speaker has told this house that it answered the expectations of its supporters. It answered so well, that all my fears of want of men have long since been dispelled, and I am clearly of opinion that it is the only system on which Representative Government can be effectually carried out. The honourable mover of this resolution has told the house that he would be content with a small beginning, so long as it was a real one. I perfectly agree with him. If \y e begin on a small but good system, it will grow with the colony, and we shall find plenty of good men willing to serve the country; and I am sure, from the tone of the debate, that the members of this house will be ready to give every assistance in their power to bring into satisfactory working the system they now ask for. Several objections have* been urged against its immediate introduction. One that the 56th clause of the Act giving power to the Governor to send back Bills with amendments for the consideration of the house, would be a bar to such a system at present. But those honourable members must forget that in Wellington, where Responsible Government is fully at work, that clause 27 of the Act, giving the same power to the Superintendent as regards Bills passed by the Provincial Council, has not been found to interfere with the working of the system. The power is not used, because the Superintendent has responsible advisers. The honourable member for the Northern Division seems to think that the interests of the natives would not be taken care of if Responsible Government was introduced.

Mr. Forsaith : No, no. Mr. Ludlam: I am son-v that the honourable member should have brought forward that as an objection, for it seems to imply that we should treat the natives with injustice. That

has ever been the cry against the settlers of New Zealand. As an old settler, I deny that there ever was any injustice practised by the settlers towards the natives. I have ever said, and shall ever say, that if the Government bad left the natives and settlers alone, we should never ha\e had any of those unfortunate wars. To show the feeling that exists on the part of the members of the Provincial Council of Wellington towards the natives, I would mention that one of our standing rules is to the effect, that any petition in the Native language shall, at the request of any member, be translated into English by some person authorised to do so by the Clerk of the Council. This does not show a wish to get rid of the Native interests. I believe that the sooner the two interests are merged into one, the sooner the natives will take an interest in our proceedings—they are beginning to do so now. As an instance of it, I can assure this house that a petition was presented to the Council at Wellington, signed by four white men and fifteen natives, praying for a sum of money to make a road to their farms which they had bought of the white men. It appears to me that if a system of responsibility is notintrodtc ?d, we shall soon get.into difficulties, and be constantly at variance with the Executive. As an illustration of what may be expected to occur under the present system, I will narrate, as nearly as I can recollect, what came under my own notice in one of the West India Islands, in the year 1838, just after the negro emancipation. The Government of that Island was composed of a Governor, Legislative Council, and an Elective house of Assembly. It was found necessary to pass certain laws for the good government of the Island, which was done by both houses. The Governor referred them home, where they were disallowed, and certain orders of Council sent out to be submitted to the Assembly. The body refused to consider them, and re-enacted the laws that were disallowed; upon which the Governor put on his veto, and dissolved the Assembly. Great excitement took place at the elections, which terminated in the return of members hostile to the Government. They passed the same laws as had been done by the previous Assembly, stopped the supplies, and adjourned. After many months of hostilities, the Governor gave way to the wishes of the people. Without responsible advisers in this bouse we should perhaps have to do the same, and get into hostility with the government. Another important reason for obtaining Responsible Government had occurred to me, but was so ably noticed by the honourable member for the Christchurch District that I shall only say a few words. The effect of an irresponsible Executive on those Provinces that have adopted a responsible system would render it difficult for them to continue to work well, if their laws were liable to be disallowed by an irresponsible Government. There can be little doubt from the debates in the adjoining colonies, particularly New South Wales, that they intend to introduce that system with their new Constitution. Itis a grave question for us to decide whether we will graft part of the old Government on the new, and allow it to grow up ; if so, we may find it very difficult in after years* to get rid of it. I am in hopes that if the resolution is carried by a large majority, that his Excellency the Officer Administering the Government will deem it his duty to acquiesce with the wishes of this house. If such should be the case, he will be entitled to the thanks of the country for striking out so bold a course, and I believe would receive the full support of this house. If, unfortunately, the contrary should be the case, I fear no good will arise from our being assembled, and" the sooner we go home to look after our farms the better. Most of us have come here at personal sacrifices, iv the hopes that we might permanently settle many questions of the "utmost importance to this Colony. The honourable member for the Pensioner Settlements, said that it was bis opinion that the Land Fund of the Province of Auckland should be exempted from liability to the New Zealand Company's debt. I wish it to be understood that I do not pledge myself to that opinion—and I Juiav say many Southern members concur in this with me. I am sure that when this question shall be brought forward, as it will be, that Southern members will give every consideration, with a view to justice, to the claim of the Province of Auckland to be exempted. Having given my reasons, it only remains for me to' say that I shall vote for the resolution of the honourable member for the Hutt; aud that, if Responsible Go-

vernment is introduced, I will give my best consideration to any measures that may be introduced by the advisers of the Governor. (Cheers.) [To be continued in our next.']