Provincial Council.

Lyttelton Times, Volume III, Issue 145, 15 October 1853, Page 9

Provincial Council.

THURSDAY, October 6th. The Speaker took the Chair at 4 p.m. The Protection of Members Bill, and the Government Gazette Bill, were read a first time. Mr.HAMii/roN moved that the Standing Rules be referred to a Select Committee. Mr. Dampier seconded the motion. Carried. GRANT OF USE OF COUNCIL-ROOM TO TREEMASONS. Mr. Tancred, in movingl that the application of the Freemasons of Christchurch, for the use of the Provincial Council Room to inaugurate their Lodge, be refused, said that he entertained a great respect for the Freemasons, although not one himself. But he thought the granting of this application would be a bad precedent. If an exception were made in favour of any one body, it would be invidious to refuse any other. A similar application might come from the Foresters, of whom he happened to be one Mmself. The room might then be applied for to give balls, and for other similar purposes (hear, hear). And if an application were made for the room for a ball, he was quite sure no gentleman would like to refuse it (hear, hear, & laughter). He hoped the Council would determine on adopting the principle at once, that the Room was to be used for no other purpose than their meetings. He moved a resolution to the effect that the granting of this application would afford a bad precedent, especially during the sitting of the Council. Mr. Bowjen seconded the motion. Mr. Hall, though he thought there would be no impropriety in granting the use of the Council Room to the Freemasons, objected to the establishment of a precedent by so doing. He considered this room as intended for too high and important a purpose to be open for other meetings, and perhaps for balls, &c. Mr. Packer thought the question of precedent was carried rather too far. It was well known that there was a project for building a Town Hall in Christchurch, which had been first brought forward by His Honor the Superintendent; and part of the plan was, to let the Hall out for many public purposes,—among others for the Sittings of the Provincial Council if they should see fit to hire it (hear). It was contemplated to hold the 'Assizes, and to give balls and public dinners in the same room. Freemasonry was an institution which bore a very high character. He thought it savoured of too conservative a feeling altogether to deny the use of this room, which was not consecrated after all, to such a body for an especial occasion, when it was considered how limited accommodation of the kind is in this town. They were a most respectable body, and the grant, as applied for, would be a gracious and popular measure. He moved an amendment to the effect that the room be granted for this occasion only, but without creating any precedent. Mr. Hamilton remarked that one question had not been brought before the Council. How were the Speaker or Clerk, who were responsible for the safety and integrity of original documents of great importance, to be held safe, if the House were to be occupied for a- time by gentlemen who would exclude from it those responsible officers? He imagined, too, that the room was much used by the Clerk as an office for the performance of his multifarious duties. Would the Freemasons provide the Clerkwith a suitable sitting-room during their meeting? He threw out these suggestions as to details ; but as he understood that there was no room suitable for the purpose, and the Freemasons were, he believed, the only secret society recognized by the law of England, he would not object to grant their application, if it were well understood that no precedent was thereby established, either in favour of the Masons or any other body. ,On that understanding he seconded the amendment. Mr. Hall was of opinion that, however you might word it, a resolution in favour of this application would afford a precedent. Other bodies were quite as respectable as the Freemasons, and might make similar applications. In that case it might be just possible that violent political harangues should be made in this room in the morning, and the Council meet here to discuss the same questions in the afternoon. 4 s to the argument that granting this application would be a gracious and popular measure, «c thought that principle was radically wrong

(hear,hear). He thought this Council had to decide on what was best for the good-of-the country; and that if its decisions were to be governed by the intention to do only that which might be called gracious and popular, he should deeply regret that representative institutions had been conferred on the colony (hear). Mr. Dampier remarked that the documents were not so bulky yet, as to occasion any difficulty about their custody for one evening. He did not wish to see a precedent established for holding balls, dinners, &c, in that room: but he thought for one special occasion only there would be no harm in allowing so respectable a body as the Freemasons the use of it.

Mr. Tancred, in reply, said that he was in no way opposed to the Freemasons. But he did not wish to see a precedent established. Many bodies, quite as respectable, would probably like to use the room too. The Christchurch Colonists' Society, of which he had the honour to be chairman, would, he had no doubt, very much 'like to use this room for their proceedings. How could the Council refuse them, if they granted it to the Freemasons ? That Society would think themselves slighted, if they did. It would be much more unpopular and ungracious to grant this boon to one body of people, and refuse it to others, than at once on principle to refuse it to all. As to there being no other room, he had himself heard, from a high officer of the Masons, that there was another room in the place available, but with some objection to it, which he himself, not being a mason, could not understand. The question was then put, as on a former day, according to the form used in the House of Commons, as to whether " the words proposed to be omitted do stand part of the question." After the voting had proceeded, Mr. Tancred said he thought the question, as put from the Chair, had been misunderstood, for Mr. Hamilton, the seconder of the amendment, had voted against it—(laughter.) The question was re-put, after explanation from the Speaker, when the votes were:— Ayes 5 Noes 4 Mr. Tancred's motion was thus carried. Address to the Superintendent. On this adjourned debate, the Council went into Committee to settle the wording of the Address, Mr. Bowen in the Chair. Mr. Hamilton said that he thought there would have been some inconsistency, after praising His Honor for expending money constitutionally, in adverting in any way to the Governor's financial arrangements. He had no doubt but that Sir George Grey's measures, were in accordance with the spirit of the Constitution Act, if not with its letter, and that the General Assembly would be ready to put its seal on all that His Excellency did in the matter. The Council, however, did not commit themselves to approbation of those measures : they had no official knowledge of them ; therefore of course they did not regret them: they were free to take any course on a future occasion. In fact, the Council hardly knew what its relations with the General Government were. He moved several verbal alterations and omissions, which were agreed to, On the House resuming, and the Chairman bringing up the report, it was agreed that a Deputation, consisting of the Speaker, and Messrs. Packer, Hall, and Cass, do wait upon His Honor the Superintendent with the Address. After a few notices of motion, the House adjourned. FRIDAY, Oct. 7. At 11 o'clock there were only present just enough members to form a quorum of the House, viz.: the Speaker, and Messrs. Hamilton, Packer, and Hall. The Limitation of Patronage Bill, and the Executive Government Bill, were both read a first time. Scab Amendment Bill. On moving the second reading of this Bill, Mr. Hall said that he did not overrate the importance of the measure when he asserted that the fate of the pastoral interests of the Province hung upon the decision of the House with regard to this bill; for unless some very stringent measures were adopted without delay, the whole Province would be overrun with this ruinous disease. The law at present left the careful, industrious stockowuer virtually without protection ; one idle or negligent individual could frustrate the efforts of all his neighbours to keep their flocks free from disease ; they were

quite at the mercy of any reckless speculator who, for imaginary private gain, would peril the prosperity and welfare of the Province. The experience of neighbouring colonies should not be thrown away upon us : the Wairau was overspread with scab ; in Van Diemen's Land it had vow obtained such a firm hold that in all probability it would never be eradicated ; and in Port Philip the disease was at this moment spreading like wildfire, —it seemed hopeless to attempt to arrest its progress. We should be placed even in a worse position than any of the districts he had named, for the scarcity of feed, the absence, for the most part, of any natural boundaries, and the difficulty of obtaining labour, would encumber any attempt to cure this disease, with almost insuperable difficulties. The stockowners and the public at large weve fully alive to the importance of the case, and had at a public meeting strongly recommended the adoption of prompt and. energetic measures. The difficulties attending sheepfarming in this Province would, under the most favourable circumstances, be greater than the uninitiated had any idea of; the hi^t rents, more than double those paid in neighbouring colonies, the scarcity of stock, the high price of labour, the greatly enhanced cost of every material which entered into the formation or maintenance of a station, presented obstacles which it would require the utmost energy, prudence, and economy to overcome, and he had no hesitation in stating that if to these were added an extensive spread of this loathsome disease, a great portion of the present race of sheep-far-mers would be overwhelmed. He trusted he, had said enough to induce the. Council, by reading the bill a second time, to lay down the principle that this was one of those few cases in which a due regard for the public safety required and justified an interference with private property. More than the assertion of this principle he did not now ask; the details of the bill would be open to revision in Committee. He concluded by urging upon the Council that this was a measure of greater importance to the welfare of the community than any yet introduced. The bills laid on the table by the Government might constitute a most perfect machinery of Government; but if the wealth producing powers of the Province were compromised, it would only govern an impoverished people and an unproductive country (hear). Mr. Hamilton asked for further explanation, and suggested the repealing of the old Ordinance altogether. Mr. HaluTl explained some of the clauses at greater detail. The old Ordinance contained some restrictions on landing scabby sheep, which, if repealed, might perhaps not be within the power of this Council to re-impose, as interfering with the regulation of Customs. When he first introduced this measure, he only intended it to meet the pressing emergency: but he had since that time received several valuable suggestions for additions to it, from a Committee of stockowners. He trusted that the Council would assent lo these additions in Committee, as this, being a measure of police among the stockowners themselves, must be of benefit if agreeable to the great majority of them —(hear, hear). During a conversation as to the forms necessary in reading Bills, between the Speakek and the different members, Mi*. Cass entered the room with his hat on, and was called to order by the Speaker for so doing. The Bill was then read a second time. Advance of Money Ordinance. A message from the Superintendent was read, returning the Advance of money Bill sent up for His Honor's approval, with a suggestion that it should be intituled au " Act" or an " Ordinance," as soon as passed, instead of a Bill. Mr. Hamilton would move that the Standing Orders be suspended, in order not to delay this important measure by requiring the necessary notice of motion. Mr. Hall said the House was not competent to entertain such a motion. 24 hours' notice was necessary of a motion to suspend the Standing Orders; and very properly too, for otherwise a member or two might smuggle some Bill through without their colleagues knowing any thing about it (hear, hear.) The Speaker confirmed Mr. Hall's view. On the motion of Mr. Hamilton, the Council went into Committee, Mr. Cass in the Chair, on the suggestions of His Honour, and the title of the Ordinance was duly settled. On the House resuming, due notice, was

given of motion for reading a third time and passing the Ordinance to-raorrow (Saturday.) SATURDAY, Oct. 8. The House met at noun, for the special purpose of finally passing the Advance of Money Ordinance. No other business was transacted. TUESDAY, 11th October. The Speaker took the Chair at 4, p.m. WASTE LANDS. Mr. Tancred, in moving the resolutions of which he had given notice, said that it was essential that the Provincial Government should have the administration of the Waste Lands. But as this Council had no power to deal with them, or to enact with regard to them, they must prooeed by making their wishes known to the Governor and the General Assembly. The resolutions were then read by the Clerk. Mr. Packer objected to them. He thought it was premature to move the General Government in this matter, before the Executive Government of the Province was even constituted. He thought the resolutions more like expostulation than address. The Speaker reminded the Council that the motion given notice of was to go into Committee on these resolutions. After some conversation in which Messrs. Tancretl, Dampier, and Hall took part, it was resolved to adjourn the consideration of these resolutions till Thursday. In putting the motion and an amendment for further postponement," the Speaker again used the form of the House of Commons, and some of the members had to ask for special explanation of the question put, before they could understand which they meant to vote for. EXECUTIVE GOVERNMENT BULL. In moving the second reading of this bill, Mr. Hamilton dwelt on the importance of establishing by law the machinery of Government, and not leaving it to the arbitrary arrangement of a Governor or Superintendent. The time had not yet come for throwing the responsibility on the Heads of Departments alone, since in the infancy of the colony they were obliged to perform a great part of the duties of permanent clerks, which could not be taken up by their subordinates. But it was advisable that the Superintendent should have some persons on whom a certain amount of responsibility should fall, for their advice as to his measures. Therefore this" BUI constituted an Executive Council of from 3 to 5 persons, to be named by the Superintendent, but not necessarily heads of departments. That Council would act as a check on the hasty or inconsiderate initiation of measures. He had heard that the acceptance of a seat in the Executive Council would necessarily involve a sacrifice of independence. He differed from this view, because it was clear that the Councillor could resign, as soon as he found he could not independently co-operate with His Honor. He went on to explain some of the other leading features of the measure. It provides for the establishment of a Public Seal <br the Province: for the appointment of a Provincial Treasurer, Auditor, and Secretary : but the business of the latter office may be performed by the Superintendent in person. It also provides for the appointment of a deputy by His Honor in case of absence, such as in attending the General Assembly. Mr. Taxcrbd seconded the.motion. Mr. Dampieb, though not wishing to opppose the motion, would mention his impression that this Council was incompetent to constitute a new form of government. He imagined the Superintendent and Council could only make such laws as the Act especially authorised them to make. He thought this bill a great stretch of the powers of the Council; and he disapproved of shifting tiie responsibility of government from the Superintendent to the members of this House called an Executive Council. If, moreover, Government officers were appointed from among the members of the House, its freedom would be seriously affected by the ab- . straction of 3, or perhaps 5, members beside, to be Government advisers. He thought this was an effort to change the constitution of this House from the intention of the Constitutianal Act. He would put it to the gentlemen who had charge of the Government measures whether they had obtained legal advice on the ri<jbt of the Council to constitute a Government, sufficient to justify them in proposing this measure ? - Mr. Packer said this Bill involved prin-

ciples which required most serious consideration. The Superintendent was to be authorised by it to name not more than 5 persons as Executive Councillors. If he should name the whole 5, as well as the paid officers of the Government, from among the members of this Council, consisting of only twelve persons, he would have a majority at once, and complete control over the legislative as well as the executive branch of the Government. Although the Executive Councillors were not to be paid, yet such an appointment was very apt to affect a man's independence ; once in, a feeling of pride might'produce reluctance to be turned out again,lest one should be described as " not a friend" of the Superintendent. Now if such a control over this Council were obtained by His Honor, the minority might as well pnt on their hats, and walk out. He trusted time would be given to consider this very important measure. Many of the Members were, like himself, very new at these subjects : but he for one felt that this Bill was the found-ation-stone of all their proceedings, involving much good or evil for the future, according as its provisions might be more or less wisely settled, and therefore requiring most deliberate and careful consideration (hear).

Mr. Hall would fully concur, if this Bill stood alone, in. the feelings of the preceding speaker with regard to it. It would be possible that 5 members drawn from this Honse, even with no salary, as Executive Councillors, should acquire an esprit de corps leading them to sanction measures originated by their advice. And if the paid officers were also taken from the Council, Government would at once secure a majority out of the twelve. But he would draw attention to the Limitation of Patronage Bill, introduced together with this Bill, which would enable the Constituencies to reject any member who should accept a paid appointment on such terms as to forfeit their confidence. Even with that safeguard, he felt that the present Bill involved some danger to the independence of the Ho use : ; and he should like to be informed by gentlemen advising the Superintendent whether any Bill was in contemplation for extending the number of members of this Council? He trusted there was (hear). As to the legal power of the Council to constitute a Government, on which doubts had been thrown by the honorable member for Lyttelton (Mr. Dampier), he would read in the words of the Act, what had been justly termed the Charter of the Province, the clause empowering the Superintendent and Council, to make (except on 13 specified subjects) " all such laws and ordinances as may be required for the peace, order, and good government of the Province," provided they be not repugnant to the law of. England. Unless, then, the subject of legislation trench on any of the 13 prohibited subjects, it was clearly within the jurisdiction of the Council. This Bill related most especially to the good government of this Province (hear).

Mr. Hamilton replied—After the precedingspeaker's clear maintenance of the legal power of this Council to enact tbe Bill, he would only on that point express his own opinion that the measure was one especially required fur the " order and good government" of the Province. It was absolutely and clearly essential to establish legally the machinery for carrying on the good government of the Province. A legal opinion on this point was scarcely necessary (hear, hear). As to the remarks which had been made on the probable result of abstracting members of this Council to advise the Government, he thought those remarks were a slur on all its members, whether friends of the Government or not. On the part of his own constituency, and of himself, he would assert his thorough independence, and his determination not to support the measures of Government unless he were satisfied that they were sound and good (hear, hear). He was convinced that this Council was assembled to do all things for ihe good of the Province, whether proposed by His Honor or not: and if he were not satisfied with any measure proposed by His Hono>-, he would resign his seat in the Executive Council at once (hear^. As to paid officers not being independent, lie believed that if his constituency were not convinced that his salary would not fetter his independence they would not have elected him. He would strongly repudiate the opinion thut because a man is paid for valuable services he has no conscience, or sells it. He would ask, how were Bills to he carried through this House if there were nobody to take charge of, and forward them ? It appeared to him that

Mr. Packer approved^ru^^JTJ^rlishmg an Executive Government Tint «v■ b" to the details of this measure ThLt^f be altered in Committee. There wa ? a ? lght this safeguard, that if members were Jot fied with the establishment of such a To f ment, they need not vote the supplies fi,/\" practical working. Time was asked for earful deliberation on every measure- and ™, the necessity for it he cordially agreed • but iV Bill had been more than a fortnight on tl table, and perfectly accessible to Member? This measure only proposed to establish by W such a Provincial Government as the Governor had by mere word of mouth done for the dp funct Provinces. He himself did not receivo ' and was not likely to receive, any salary f rom v " the Provincial Government, and was therefore independent of, and not bound to, the Superin- ' tendeut; but acting from having at heart the interest of the settlement. It was easy to criticise and oppose measures, but not so easy or pleasant to bring- them forward and be responsible for them. Practically, if the present Superintendent could not obtain the approval of a majority of this Council to the measures proposed by him, he would, of necessity, resign the Office : and then another Superintendent would be found whose measures would meet with the assent of a majority (hear, hear.) The motion was then put and carried unanimously. GOVERNMENT GAZETTE BILL, Mr. Tancred moved the second reading of this bill. It was to provide a formal channel for notifications by authority of the Government. Mr. Hamilton seconded the motion, which was carried. LIMITATION OF PATRONAGE BILL. Mr. Hamilton said this measure was an answer to the arguments used against the Executive Government Bill. Its substance is, to forbid the Superintendent from appointing to any place of emolument, or entering into any public contract with, any member of the Council, unless he shall have first resigned his seat in the same. The Constituency would thus be able to approve, or condemn, the appointment, or contract, by their choice. He moved the second reading of this bill. Mr. Tancred seconded the motion. Carried. PROTECTION OP MEMBERS BILL. Mr. Tancred, in moving the second reading, explained that this bill contained more than its title indicated, and he proposed to amend the title in Committee. Its main provisions were: Ist, to secure freedom of debate by exempting members and witnesses from action for libel in consequence of anything said in the House; 2nd, to make the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents compulsory; 3rd, to punish contempt of tne Council and its officers ; and 4th, to make the records of the Council legal evidence of its proceedings. He briefly explained the necessity for such provisions. Mr. Hamilton seconded the motion, and instanced the recent refusal of a public officer to furnish information relating to his department, as a proof of the need of such a law. Motion carried. PAPEES LAID ON THE TABLE. Mr. Tancred laid on the table the following documents: — 1. A correspondence between the Civil Secretary, the Superintendent, and Mr. Sewell, relating to the liabilities of the Association; to the effect that the Provincial Government is ready to receive a proposal on. the subject from Mr. Sewell. 2. A correspondence between the Civil Secretary and the Superintendent, relating to the Supreme Court. His Honor objects to having the travelling expenses of the Court charged on the Province. 3. A correspondence between the Civil secretary and the Superintendent, respecting Hemp'leman's claim to land at Akaroa, representing to the Governor the objections to the claim, and the Commissioner's award in respect ol it. 4. A letter from Messrs. Wigram .and bons, of London, offering to undertake the Immigration Service of the Province. EXTRA CLERK. Mr. Hamilton moved, and Mr. Dampier seconded, an address to His Honor representing the want of further clerical assistance. Carried-

NOTICES. OF MOTION. jlr. Ham. gave notice that he would on Chursday as,k the Government-members whether they contemplated introducing a Bill for ncreasing the. number of. members of this Council; and also, whether the power of giving Jnsh Licences had been deputed to the Superuteiident. Post-Office. Mr. Hamilton asked Mr. Hall if he would ;xplain the object of his motion for a return on his subject. The men of business in Lyttelton irere alavmed at the notion of an intention to emove the Post-Office to Christchurch. A eply from Mr. Hall might set their minds at est (laughter). Mr. Hah, although not allowing the princile that it was obligatory beforehand to explain lie ultimate object of a motion for returns, ould not refuse to remove this cause of great larm to Lyttelton. He had great pleasure in splying that his object was to procure a Post)ffice at Christchurch, and better postal comivmication betsveen the two, towns. He felt ther hurt that the Lyttelton people should ire thought he could entertain so absurd an ea as that of removing the whole Post-office Clmstchurch (laughter). Standing Orders. The Speaker communicated the approval by ie Superintendent, of the additional Orders jlating to Election Petitions. • The Council adjourned at half-past six.