LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Lyttelton Times, Volume I, Issue 29, 26 July 1851, Page 9

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

We resume our summary, from the-reports in the Wellington papers, of the sayings and doings in the Legislative Council. Wednesday, July 2.—Duties of Customs Bill.—Mr. Hickson presented a Memorial ■ from merchants and others in Wellington, praying that the spirits now in bond, be allowed to be taken out of bond during the next month, - at a duty of ss. per gallon, and that all spirits «*i.mported after the passing of the bill, be subject *h*e}*he hi b " " rate of duty. A * The Council then \vcnt into committee on the Duties of Customs Bill. Mr. Hickson, adverting to the previous discussion on the duty on flour, said that the duty was retained under the impression of protecting the agricultural interest, but he would shew that the agricultural interest received ample protection in the freight and other charges on flour from the Australian colonies. The lion, member stated these charges to amount to 41. 2s. 6d. per ton of flour, exclusive of damage by sea water. Under these circumstances, he would move for a total repeal of the duty. Motion seconded by Col. Cleverly. Mr. Cautley moved his former amendment for the remission of the duty for one year only. Mr. Hickson said the lion, member appeared to consider Nelson the whole of New Zealand ; lie had advocated the repeal of duty on tobacco for sheep washing for Nelson -, he had also proposed the repeal of duty on agricultural implements for Nelson; but he wished to continue the duty on flour, because Nelson does not import flour. The committee divided on Mr. Hickson's motion, and the numbers being- equal, the final decision of the question was postponed to the following clay, the Governor declining to vote. The committee then adjourned. Marriage Amendment Ordinance.—The Council went into committee on this bill. The amendment proposed on the three first clauses having been withdrawn, the clauses were agreed to ; the committee then adjourned, and the report was brought up and adopted. The Interpretation Ordinance was read a third time and passed. Address to the Ceown.—Mr. Cautley observed that, seeing an attempt had been made by the Canterbury Association to encroach on the Nelson settlement, leaving it therefore to another member to move a general address, he would move the following resolution: " That this Council having reason to believe that it is the intention of the Canterbury Association to endeavour to obtain an extension of the limits of their present territory, a committee be appointed to report whether, looking to the principles on which the Association has been founded, and the position of the land adjoining to that territory, such extension would tend to promote the interests of the whole colony, in order that, if they be of a contrary opinion, an address to the Crown should be prepared by them to that effect, and should be submitted for the consideration of the Council on a future occasion: and that the committee do consist of the Hon. Colonial Secretary of New Munster, Mr. Bell, Mr. Cautley, and Mr. Hickson." The motion was seconded by Mr. Hickson. The Colonial Treasurer thought it would be better that the address should be framed on general grounds, as otherwise it might appear as if directed against the Canterbury Association, rather than against the principle of that Association to which their objections applied. Mr. Dillon said that a positive evil was inflicted by this encroachment. He believed the settlers at Nelson were unanimously opposed to it.

The Colonial Secretary of New Minister proposed that there should be two separate addresses, one referring to the peculiar injury caused by the operation of the principle complained of, the other on general grounds, he would therefore move:—

" That an address be presented to Her Majesty praying that, in order to enable the settlers of New Zealand to engage with security and confidence in j;he various pursuits connected with the occupation yof land, Her Majesty will, in accordance with the course so beneficially followed by the Crown on a "brraex occasion, in sanctioning the enactment by Parliament of the Australian Waste Lands Acts, be ;raciously pleased to direct the adoption of some me simple and uniform system for the original disposal, in the first instance, of waste lands by the j,t'rown, whether, to individuals or associations, for th\ purpose of founding settlements on j 'eculiar systems, with divers modes of disposing

subsequently of such lands, and to cause such uniform system to be rigidly adhered to for the future."

Sir George Grey said one difficulty presented itself to the motion in its present form, that the Canterbury Association was not the only Association.

The council then divided on Mr. Cautley's motion. In favour of the motion 7 ; against it -6 ;—Carried.

The Colonial Secretary's motion was adopted, and be was requested to prepare the address. On the motion of the Attorney-General of New Zealand, the Municipal Elective Franchise Bill was read a third time and passed. The Council then adjourned.

Thursday, July3.—Customs Bill.—On the motion of Mr. Hickson, the council went into committee on the Customs Bill.

Mr. Hickson moved as an amendment, that the duty on flour be permanently taken off. The Collector of Customs said this was not a question of freight or of value, but the object being to tax as few articles as possible for the purpose of raising- a revenue, the question was what articles should be taxed.

The Colonial Secretary of New Munster said the duty on flour was easily collected, and being an article of general consumption, pressed more equally on all classes than any other duty.

Mr. Bell said tins was a tax on one of the necessaries of life, and pressed upon the poorer classes.

The Colonial Secretary of New Munster wished to know who were the poorer classes ? Such an argument might be applicable in an old country, but he did not believe there was such a class here.

The committee then divided. For Mr. Hickson's amendment 6 ; against it 5 ; —amendment carried.

The Collector of Customs proposed a further amendment on the repeal of the duties on all articles of corn, meal, and flour, which was lost.

Mr. Bell wished, as they had reversed the decision they had made a fortnight ago, by repealing the duty on flour, they would reconsider the duty on another article. He would propose an additional duty of one shilling a gallon on spirits, to make up for the loss of revenue by the repeal of the duty on flour, a loss which would be more considerable as population increased. Mr. Hickson could assure the council if the duty on spirits were raised to seven shillings a gallon, the amount of duty would be, less than what was received at present. The committee divided. For the amendment 5 ; against it 7.—Amendment negatived. The committee then, adjourned, and the report was brought up. The Attorney-General of New Zealand gave notice he would move the following amendment on the Naturalization Ordinance :-r-

And whereas there are certain other persons resisident at — whom it is expedient to relieve from the liabilities to which aliens are by law subject, but whose names and description have not been accurately ascertained. Be it enacted that all and singular the persons who shall be declared to come within the operation of this Ordinance, by any Proclamation to be issued by the Govemor-in-Chief, shall be deemed and taken within the Islands of New Zealand to be natural born subjects of her Majesty, as fully to all intents and purposes as if their names had respectively been inserted in the schedule hereunto annexed.

Mr. Dillon moved for certain returns connected with the New Zealand Company's Land Claimants Bill.

The Collector of Customs said he hoped, when the new scale of duties came into operation, that all parties would be treated alike; if a difference was to be made in favour of those who had spirits in bond, an undue advantage would be given to mercantile houses here.

Mr. Bell thought the postponement of a month, in imposing the additional duty on spirits, would occasion a considerable loss to the revenue.

Mr. Hickson said it would make very little difference to the revenue whether the increased duty came into operation in a few days or a month, as in the interval, however short, persons would raise money to take spirits out of bond.

The Collector of Customs moved that the bill be recommitted; seconded by Mr. Bell. The Colonial Secretary of New Zealand was of opinion, as the intention! of the legislature was known in tins settlement, the advantage of a previous notice should fee given to the other settlements., ' - -

Mr. Bell thought there were fair grounds for recommitting the bill, as during the absenceof the Collector of Customs, two important previous decisions of the committee were reversed.

The Collector of Customs said, when he first proposed a date at which the bill should come into operation, he had no idea any difference would be made between goods in bond and those imported.

Col. M'Cleverty was of opinion the mercantile interest would gain by any delay in imposing the higher duty at the expence of the levenue, as they would obtain the spirits at the lower fluty, and charge the "additional shilling a gallon to their customers.

Sir George Grey desired, after what had passed, to see the bill recommitted, to obtain further information on the subject. In the first place, the present bill was intended to be a permanent measure, and would form the basis of considerable future modifications in the tariff.

Mr. Bell was of opinion that the bill should

come into operation the day after its passing, in Wellington; and at all other ports of entry in the colony the day after it was received.

Mr. Hickson observed that no alteration had been made in the duty on tobacco, except that used for sheepwashing. The increased duties on wines would considerably exceed what had previously been collected. Wine had been entered for duty at the average value of bl. the quarter-cask, which at 10 per cent., produced a duty of 10s. A quarter cask contained 26 gallons, and, at the rate fixed by this Act of Is. 6d. per gallon, would pay a duty of 395.

Sir George Grey said there were several points that had not been touched upon. If the amount of spirits in bond were supposed to be 5,000 gallons, the total profit in saving the additional duty of one shilling per gallon would amount to £250; to obtain that, a risk would be incurred of £1,250, the amount of duty paid at ss. pec gallon ; for if any accident occurred on spirits in bond, occasioning loss, the duty was not charged on the spirits so lost; but if any accident occurred to them out of bond, the whole duty was lost.

Mr. Bell said tlie spirits now in bond in this settlement were estimated not to exceed ten weeks' consumption ; taking into account the discount on the money required for the payment of duties, it would still leave a considerable profit to take the spirits out of bond at a lower rate of duty.

The Lieutenant-Governor was in favour of passing the bill as printed for two reasons, first, that even if the revenue should suffer by the spirits being taken out of bond at the lower rate of duty, it would be better to fall back on the general increase of revenue produced by the alterations now made; and secondly he thought that due notice should be given to the public of so important an alteration.

The committee then divided on the amendment. In favour of the immediate operation of the increased duty on spirits 10; against it 3. The committee adjourned, and the report with, the alterations was brought up and adopted. The Collector of Customs moved that the standing orders be suspended, and that the bill be read a third time.

Mr. Hickson moved that the Council be adjourned, as he considered the suspension of the standing orders to be an extraordinary proceeding.

The Colonial Secretary of New Zealand seconded Mr. Hickson's amendment, and considered it unseemly and unusual that the bill should be passed with such precipitancy. Mr. Hickson could not conceive what emergency existed for requiring such haste in passing the bill.

Mr. Bell said it was necessary to prevent the operation of the bill being frustrated. The Colonial Secretary 2T. M,, observed that all the reasons which apply for the delay of one month apply for one day. Sir George Grey objected to the proposed course for the following reason. As the bill stood yesterday, it was not intended to come into operation for several days, the 7th o[ July having been fixed as the period for its coming into force.

The committee then divided. For the suspension of the standing orders—9; against it 4. Mr. Hickson said the proceedings had taken, such an extraordinary turn, that he must decline to take further charge of the bill. The Collector of Customs moved the third reading of the bill, which was seconded by Mr. Bell; the bill.was read a third time and passed. The Attorney-General of New Zealand, gave

notice that he would, at the next sitting, move the third reading of the Provincial Councils Bill. The council then adjourned.

TcESDAr, July 8.— Building Societies Bm.: —Mr. Bell said he rose with great pleasure to move the second reading of the Building Societies Bill, which he believed to be a measure that would confer a very great benefit on a large portion of the community; and, as was usual on the second reading of bills, he would shortly explain the general objects and principles of the societies which it was proposed to establish. Before doing so, he wished to remind the council that he was not asking them to sanction any new idea, or to establish anything which had not been tried before. In England, building societies had been formed in many places, and with very large success; and their success was thought of so much advantage that parliament had some years ago passed Acts for their especial protection and encouragement, and Lad regulated their management in the most careful ■way. Large numbers of the working classes at home had so associated themselves for the common advantage, and very large sums had been raised and invested in property by them. In the case of one society alone, he had been informed by a gentleman who had had considerable experience in these matters, no less a sum than 27,000£. had been so raised out of small savings periodically laid by, and expended by the members for their own benefit. But if societies of this kind had worked successfully in England, and had contributed to the comfortable establishment of thousands there, it was obvious they would be infinitely more advantageous in a new country, where wages and profits and the interest of money were so much higher than at home; and where, consequently, it was much easier for a working man to lay by some of his earnings, and by association with such societies either to obtain real property, for which he would otherwise have to pay high rents, or rapidly to accumulate his savings upou a comparatively high interest. Now societies of this sort embraced both those objects. In the first place they offered to their members the opportunity of acquiring property on easy terms ;in the second they provided an accumulating fund fox- members who preferred that way o£ investing "their savings. Without troubling the council with many details as to the capital employed by various societies of the sort at home, he would briefly say that it had been calculated (and from careful examination he believed the calculation was correct) that a society established under the proposed Ordinance, would work well and successfully, if it started with 300 shares at 100/. each, that, in point of fact, was the proposal of a society which had been already formed in Wellington, and which would proceed to work if the ordinance were passed, as the greater number of the shares had actually been subscribed. It was of course an essential point in these societies that their existence should terminate at a fixed period, when the accumulated fund, or such part of it as had not been lent to members, should be divisible. The Wellington society was intended to terminate in ten years, but as the calculations had all been based on a scale of interest and profit much below ■what was current in the colony, he believed the society would be able to terminate successfully and profitably in less than ten years. Now, as he had before said, there were two classes who were, as members, to be benefited by societies of this sort; and he would proceed to explain what benefit they would respectively get. A stock being formed as above stated, of 300 shares of 1001. each, a subscription of 10s. pelmonth, amounting to 61. per annum, was payable on each share. The members were divided into, first—those who allowed their subscriptions to accumulate for ten years, that is, till the end of the society ; and secondly—those who received their shares in advance, or in other words borlowed from the society. The first class paid 10s. per month on each 1001. share, and so in ten years would have paid only 601.; but each subscription accumulating at high and compound interest, would have realised in ten years or less 100/.,0r the full amount of the share they had to receive. The second class, on the contrary, consisted of those who, also paying a sub"scription of 10s. per month for the ten years, were willing to take considerably less than 100/. for their share if they received it at once. The process was simple. As fast as money came in, the society would lay it out in paying off the shases of members^YbQ desired to realise; and the

calculation was that during the first yeav the society could give 55/. for each shave so realised, and of couvse a higher price every year, as shares became more valuable by reason of the subscriptions paid on them. Thus, as at the end of the first month 150?. would have been received in subscriptions on 300 shares, the society would be able to pay off nearly three shares. But as there would of course be many members desirous of receiving their shares in advance, the maximum price of 55/. which the society can give is, so to speak, put up for sale in the same way as Government loans are put up in Europe. That is to say, the question is asked,Avhich member,, agreeing to pay during the ten years Ins monthly subscription and interest for the advance made him, and able to give ample security to the society, will take the least sum for his 100 Z. share ? Now the competition among members will probably induce the holders of three shares to accept 501. on each share, or probably less. At the end of the first month therefore the society will, with the 150/. subscriptions, pay off three shares, taking ample security on real property from the parties to whom the money is paid. At the end of the second month it would have another 1501. of subscriptions, and repeat the process. And so on every succeeding month in the same way, the subscriptions ..being continually increased by the amount of interest paid by the parties who had received their shares in advance. Thus, at the end of the first year the society would have received and lent 1800/. ;at the end of the second year 2000/. more, or about 4000/.; at the end of the third year 6000/., and so on. So that by small savings periodically made, large sums would soon be lent among and for the benefit of members alone. Now the council would see what advantages such a scheme offered to persons of small means but industrious habits in the acquisition of property ; and in drawing their attention to instances of such advantage he was sure similar instances would: immediately come to the recollection of any lion, members who had had dealings with real property in this country. There were numbers of persons in the occupation of land on lease for which they were paying more or less rent, and on which they might have expended years of labour. At the end of their term, unless they had the money ready to buy the land, they either lost all their labour, or were driven to take tip money on mortgage at an interest of from 15 to 25 per cent., and frequently more. Even if they had the money, they lost all the rent they had paid. He knew a case in which a working man had been for years in occupation of a piece of land, had brought it to high cultivation, built his house, and estimated altogether the value of it to him now at 250/. Having what is called a pnrchasing clause in his' lease, he could make the land his own for 501. If he raised that amount on mortgage he would have to pay an extravagant interest, and still at some day have to find the principal: but by becoming a member of the society, he could at the end of the first month receive the 501. he wanted on the security of his land, and all his liability would be the payment for ten years of a subscription, perhaps less by half than the mere interest he would pay a mortgagee. Again, let the council look at the case of a person commencing a tenancy now. He would have to pay rent for some years, and then find money to buy the land or house. The society enabled him to buy them at once,, upon his paying an annual subscription that in most cases would be less than the rent alone he would otherwise have paid. When, therefore, the society had been some time at work, and was better understood, it was probable the number of shareholders would become very greatly increased, especially among the working class. He had now, he thought, explained the objects and principles of the societies which the bill was intended to establish, and shew the advantages they would confer; and as he had already trespassed too lon 0" on the indulgence of the council, he would only* detain them by briefly stating that every possible precaution was taken to prevent fraud or mismanagement. It was enacted that the Eules of any society should be subject to the assent of the Government; that all trustees or persons receiving the society's money should give security ; that magistrates should have the power of deciding summarily in cases of fraud or dispute; that where necessary a Judge of the Supreme Court should interfere for the society's protection ; and that full accounts should be periodically published. With such safeguards, he'bei Ueved the proposed societies -would vrorkmost

profitably and advantageously, and largely promote the prosperity of the colony, by the encouragement of industry and frugality, and by the facility afforded for the acquisition of property.

The Attorney General of New Zealand, seconded the motion, and the bill was read a second time.

The Council then went Into committee on the bill.

On the title being- read it was suggested by the Attorney General of New Zealand that thetitle " Benefit" instead of " Building Societip"^ would be more expressive of tb" "iijects p*!jf posed by the bill. Consideration deferred. *"**' ■ In the first clause.Sir George Grey suggested the omission of the words " of European origin," to allow the natives, if they pleased, to avail themselves of the advantages offered by these societies.

Clauses 1 to 12 were considered^ and committee adjourned.

Naturalization Bii/l —The Council went into committee on this bill. The Attorney General moved as an amendment that the Governor-in-Chief should be enabled to add, by proclamation, the names of other aliens who might desire to be naturalized, the object of the amendment being to allow the settlers at^Akaroa to avail themselves of the provisions of the bill. Sir Geo. Grey suggested that the proclamation should only have force to the next session of the General Council, so as to render it necessary for the Governor-in-Chief to resort to the authority of the General Legislative Council to sanction what he had done. The Committee then adjourned, and the report was brought up and adopted.

Census Bill.—The Colonial Secretary of New Minister suggested a slight alteration in the schedule of the Census Bill in the column of "Age,." which he proposed to divide in seven columns. The alteration was agreed to, and the report on the hill brought up and adopted. The Attorney General of New Zealand gave notice of his intention to move for copies of any correspondence between Her Majesty's Government and the Canterbury Association, on the subject of the appointment of Justices of the Peace, and other officers for the settlement of Canterbury. The Council then adjourned.

Wednesday, July 9.—The Council met at the usual hour , aftev prayers, on the motion of the Attorney General of New Zealand, the Provincial Councils Bill was read a third time and passed.

The Attorney General of New Zealand moved for the correspondence between Her Majesty's Government and the Canterbury Association, of which he had given notice yesterday. The correspondence was laid on the table.

Building Societies Bim,.—On the motion of Mr. Bell, the Council went into committee on the Building Societies Bill. Clauses 32 to 16 agreed to with one or two; slight amendments.

It was suggested by the Attorney General of New Zealand that the latter part of clause 17 should be struck out,'as its effect would be to bring the Society before the Supreme Court in forma pauperis, which, forth c character of such societies, it would be desirable to avoid.

Mr. Bell explained that the intention of the part of the clause referred to was only to enable a petition, which was more a matter of form and did not require much to do, to be carried before the Court without expense to the Society. After some further discussion, the latter part of the clause was struck out.

The Committee then adjourned,

We are happy to be able to state, on the authority of a private letter received from the Bishop of New Zealand in the course of the last week, that his Lordship intends to revisit this settlement in the month of November, in the schooner " Border Maid," which has been recently presented to him by the clergy and laity of the dioceses of Sydney and Newcastle. The Bishop of Newcastle arrived at Auckland, in the ' Border Maid,' on Whit-^un-day,and their Lordships were preparing, at the time the letter was written, (June 24,) to start in the course of the following week, on board the samg, schooner, for a missionary visit to-New Caledonia' and other islands to the north. The Bishop 6 New Zealand has addressed a pastoral letter to the members of the Church/in his diocese, oh the sub ject of .Australasian missions, for the furtherance c which object, an Association has recently bee: formed at Auckland. jWe are happy to add, thl the Bishop intends to bring Mrs. Silwyn with hi? at his next yisit to this Settlement/ ■■ I ■