ELECTIVE UPPER HOUSE.

King Country Chronicle, Volume VI, Issue 506, 5 October 1912, Page 5

ELECTIVE UPPER HOUSE.

THE PRINCIPLE DEBATED. PREMIER'S RESLOUTIONS CAR- ' • RIED. [IIY TKLKGKAI'U. I'BKSS ASSOCIATION.] Wellington, This Day. Yesterday afternoon in the House of Representatives Mr Massey moved the motion of which he had previously given notice to the effect that it is desirable that an alteration in the constitution of the Legislative Council shall be effected by the present Parliament; that the alteration be from appointment by Government to election by a direct vote at the polls of electors qualified to vote at a general election for members of the House; that the election be upon the proportional system and therefore by largo electoral divisions; that the number of elected members other than Maori bo 40, of whom 20 shall be elected at each genera) election for the House of Representatives, every member to sit for two Parliaments; that an electoral division for the Council shall be made co-terminous with tho aggregate of a number of existing electorates fur the House, and that provision be made for preserving to the House exclusive control of all matters of finance, and also for cases where Council and House ultimately fail to arrive at any agreement on any proposed legislation. He stated that Sir George Grey had always advocated an elective Upper House, which was one of the planks of their platform on which they had won the elections. He believed reform would be brought about by them. He pointed out that a large number of members of the Council had voted for the Bill introduced there, which showed that they affirmed the principle. His resolution did not alter the present franchise. Some of the country's wisest and ablest men had expressd the opinion that the Council should be elective. The system, which obtained now was absolutely wrong. From the point of view of Parliament and people they could not get good results. They were not wedded to the principle of each island being an electorate. He believed they would have to divide the country into four electorates returning 40 members. They heard a lot of the proportional system being complicated. It was nothing of the sort; it was more simple than the present system, and if put into operation he was convinced there would be less informal votes than at present. Tho system would do away with parish pump politics and the professional politician. He hoped that when the time came some of the present members of the Council would be candidates, and would be "elected. Provision would be made for the election of two Maori members. The Council would not be able to initiate any legislation dealing with finance. If the Council met the House in conference on any matter, and no agreement was arrived at the Governor would bo asked to grant a dissolution. He believed in time the system of proportional representation would apply to the Lower House. They had promised the reform of the Upper Houße, and that would be put before into effect before next election. He felt sure the resolution would be carried by a huge majority of the House.

MR RUSSELL'S AMENDMENT. Mr Russell said the carrying of the resolutions would bring about a huge revolution in the Government of the country. He moved as an amendment to omit all words after the word "that," and to insert the following in lieu thereofln the opinion of the House it is desirable the Government should state its proposals for eectoral relorm of the House of Representatives (as indicated on page 15 of the Budget) prior to a discussion of the proposals for the alteration of the constitution of the Council, the two questions being inseparably connected. He held that the reform of the method of election of the Lower House should preceed reform in the Council. The Opposition had for years fully recognised the necessity for the reform of the Council, but the real question was whether there was any necessity for a second chamber. Mr Sidey said he should vote for the resolution against the present system. When the House resumed at 7.30 the Hon. J. Allen continued the debate on the Prime Minister's motion regarding the Legislative Council. He contended that whlio Mr Rudsell's amendment was in direct challenge to a policy measure of the Government, it did not challenge the Government's principle. in his opinion everyone who voted for the amendment voted against the proportional representation system Cor the Upper House. The Premier had given his word that before this Parliament ended he would introduce a measure dealing with an alteration of Constitutionof the Upper House. He did not think the time had arrived for the abolition of the second chamber. He said the second ballot had to go, and in its place would be

put a different measure the contents of which ho was not prepared to put before the House that evening".

Sir Joseph Ward believed ono of the most fatal mistakes the House was going to make was to have both Houses elected by the people on the samo franchise. Even if one was elected on largo electorate;' in a few years the Council would become the dominant House.

The largo electorates would either play into tho hands of the wealthy or into the hands of the party which with the best organisation. The man with a lot of money would got tho best results. He thought tho system .Much as outlined in tho Governor's Speech in February would give the besl results. Logically there should bo only ono House under the proportional system.

Tho Hon. F. M. K. Fisher quoted figures to show that at the last Victorian Senate election the Labour men swept the whole IS seats, showing that tho seats were not won by tho wealthy class. Ah to the si'/.o o( the electorates; largo ones would elimi-

nate the parish pump element. Mr Hanan objected to both Houses being elected on the same franchise. Mr Robertson said if people had one truly representative House on the proportional system there would be no need for a second chamber. .His party would support tho resolution:* because they aimed in the direction ol proportion representation which was a prin-

ciple they advocated. Mr Ell considered it was a dan

gerous position to constitute a socond chamber, which would regard itself as equally powerful with the representative chamber.

Mr Atmoro said he could not support a law which favoured rich men to tho disadvantage of the poorer classes. Mr Witty contended it was tho Government's duty to give a lead to the House instead of asking for tho opinion of the House. Mr Veiteh contended Iho elective Upper House would not work out satisfactorily. An Upper House in accordance with the House of Representatives would be a superfluity. TOE PREMIER'S REL'LY. After midnight the Prime Minister replied. He said there was scarcely anything to say, as nearly every member of the House had spoiton in favour of the proposed system of election of tho Upper Jlou.se. The j'Govc.rnninnt was not on a fishing expedition. They had already introduced the Rill in the Legislative Council. Tho proposals in the resolutions wore liberal, progressive, and democratic, and those who voted against them would be neither libera), progressive nor democratic.

Mr Russell's amondment was negatived and Mr Massey's resolutions were carried, after three clauses had been challenged.