STATE FORESTS AMENDMENT BILL.

Hokitika Guardian, 28 November 1919, Page 4

STATE FORESTS AMENDMENT BILL.

(Hansard.)

The Right Hon Mr Massey (Prime Minister). —Sir, this Bill has been rendered necessary by the setting-up of the State Forests Department. It is well known to the majority of members of the House that there are .very large areas of forest land administered under tire law dealing with national endowments, with the result that the best cannot be obtained from these forest lands under existing circumstances. It is intended by the Bill to plfice the administration of such forest lands under the State Forests Department. Provision will also be made for the reafforestation of such lands where it is deemed possible and - desirable. Such lands will not be interfered with in the matter or purpose of settlement. An Hon Member.—You will ihave power to lease some of these lands for the purpose of settlement ? The'Right Hon Mr Massey.—-Where the land is suitable for settlement this Bill will not interfere with it. The land will only be provisionally, set "apart for State forests, and if it be under the control of the State Forests Department it will again revert, where necessary, to the Department of Lands. So far as revenue is concerned, half of the profits w'ill go to the National Endowment Fund. I move the second reading.

Mr Seddon (Westland).—Ther.e are one or two questions I should like to bring before the Right Hon the Prime Minister in connection with this Bill. The first is in reference to subclause (2) of clause 2, regarding the matter of revenues. I should like to point out this: When reserves were set aside under the Forestry Regulations of last year, a situation arose which has placed the sawmillers and the local bodies of "Westland in a curious position. The effect .of the Timber Regulations gives a setback to the sawmilling industry and to settlement in Westland. Before the regulations came into force the sau’millers had to apply to the Warden of the district for their right to mill, sawmilling being regarded as a mining privilege, and certain revenue went to the local bodies through the sawmilling industry. Under the regulations which came into force last year these local bodies have been deprived of that revenue, and there is nothing this session placed on the statutebook, nor any proposal before .the House, to give them the revenue w’hich they should have got unde.r the exist-, ing legislation. The Right Hon Mr Massey.—You speak of mining districts ? Mr Secklon.—Yes, because they are the only ones affected. The procedure was this: The sawmillers applied to the Warden’s Court, and they received their licenses to cut, and then the local bodies received a certain amount of revenue. This matter has been represented to the Right Hon the Prirne Minister and the Minister in charge of the Forestry Department; and, 1 think, in this Bill some provision could be introduced to ■ place those local bodies in the same position that they were in before the coming into operation of the F'orestry Regulations. There is also this other matter which I should like to mention to the Prime Minister—l refer to the position in which the Forestry Regulations have placed the sawmillers on the West Cast. The licenses to mill are mining privileges. Under those privileges the sawmillers have got licenses to cut timber in certain places. And in addition to these licenses they have reservations, Since’ the coming into operation of these regulations these saw'millers do not exactly know what their position is, nor has the legal position been set out. I think the Prime Minister could make a statement to the Rouse letting us know what tlieir position is going tq be. For instance, the sawmillers on the West Coast, assuming that the condition of affairs was going to prevail which prevailed ‘until the coming into operation of these Regulations, went to the expense of putting in big plants, purchasing expensive machinery, and putting down Ram-lines to their mills; and then, all at once, the Timber Regulations came down. It would be a fair thing to ask tjhe Government to give an assurance to these saw'millers that they could go on until those reservations were cut out, and until those areas in respect of which their licenses were granted were also cut out. I did not know' that this Bill was coming up just now, but I ask the Right Hon the Prime Minister if he w’ill take this into consideration, or ; give some assurance to the sawmillers that steps will be taken this session to remedy the unfortunate position in which they are placed. This matter was brought up before the Prime Minister the other day, and these two points were stressed. I particularly yvislr to find out what the position of the local bodies is going to be as far as their revenues are concerned, because Rom these licenses they derive a good amount of revenue, and there is nothing in this Bill to show that they are going to get anything from this. The Right Hon Mr Massey.—No; it does not affect them at all.

Mr Seddon. —They are affected by this Bill in that, by the coming into force of these regulations referred to in the Bill, the revenue from the timber royalties is taken away. The Right Hon Mr Massey. But they are pot affected by the provisions of the Bill.

Mr Seddon. —This is t|ie Bill wherein provision ought to be made, and there ought to be some assurance from the Government that these people are going to he placed in a fair position. The position they are in now is a very unfair one, and has been brought about by the introduction of those regulations. The other question is this:The sawmillers of tho West Coast, coming under the operations of the Mining Act and going on with the assurance that that Act would continue to control them, suddenly found these regulations introduced after the passing of the Act of last session. They had no idea what those regulations were going to be. It is another case of regulations governing the carryingon of an industry in New Zealand and the House having no idea of what those regulations are going to be. These think these two matters—of which the Prime Minister is aware, since they have been represented ho him— are matters regarding which he could give some assurance to the House, especial-

ly to members representing sawmulers, | as to whether lie will take their position into consideration and adjust it this session. I have an assurance that it will be adjusted after the session. The Right Hon Mr Massey:—lt is adjusted by regulation, not by legislation. Mr Seddon. —It cannot be adjusted by regulation. I just want to submit one or two other points to the Premier for his consideration. Already in the Westland County there are 900,000 acres set aside for provisional State. forests, and if the Premier looks at the State Forest Regulations he will see that the regulations framed under the Bill of last year evidently have for their object the conserving of conditions which the sawmillers contend will keep back the sawmilling industry. The regulations are restrictive and embarrassing,, and, instead of facilitating the working of the industry, will retard milling operations. In addition to that, this Bill provides that the Government may by regulation take up certain endowment lands and ch.ll them State-forest lands, and use them, although they are Government endowment lands, for forestry purposes, thus destroying the distinction between national-endowment and State-forest lands. That is going a step further than was contemplated by the former regulations, and is going to be resented in the Westland District which, as I have already pointed out, provides 900,000 acres for State-fores-try pur-poses. While we recognize that there should be some conservation of our State-forest timbers in New Zealand, we also recognize the fact that the regulations should fall as evenly as possible on the different districts in New Zealand. We do not say that settlement should be restricted. We recognize that the regulations will be framed with a view to much forest territory being taken up for settlemest purposes, and that a good deal of supervision has to he gone through before settlement can take place. Not only that, but I would point out that the Premier himself contends it will not keep back settlement. The Right JEIon Mr Massey.—Settlement will not be kept back by the Bill. Mr Seddon.—But, Sir, this Bill gives the Government power to increase the amount of State-iorest land and the taking-in of endowment land. Now, in Westland we have 900,000 acres of forestry land already, and you are going to take some of these nationalendowment lands for State-forest purposes, and put all these lands under the State Forest Regulations. The Right Hon Mr Massey.—'Only provisionally. * Mr Seddon.—Well, it is bad enough as it is, and we do not want any more reservation. Here is one of the regulations of March, 1919: “ I.—lt shall not be lawful for any person to sell any timber standing on any public or private land of any tenure, or to grant a license to cut any timber standing on any such’land, except pursuant to a license issued in that behalf by the Governor-General in Council. “2.—Any license issued by the Go-vernor-General in Council under these regulations may he in like manner revoked.” The Right Hon Mr Massey.—“ Revoked”; that is an important point. Mr Seddon.—There is the possibility of it being revoked. That is to say, you may do it conditionally, and we do not want any more of these conditions. Then the regulation goes on: — , “3.—Every person who sells any standing timber or who grants a license to cut any standing timber contrary to the provisions of these regulations, commits an offence against these regulations, and shall be liable for each offence to a fine of £iso.” There you have even on freehold land these conditions inflicted, and the owner—it does not matter what the tenure is—may find it impossible to do’ anything with his land without a license being issued. The vaunted privileges of the freehold are restricted and curtailed by these all-powerful regulations. You are going to inflict on those few freehold people down there and throughout New Zealand these separate conditions. We find on the West Coast that it is difficult enough to get people to go on the land, without saying that they shall not mill their. timber or do what they like with their timber. In some out-of-the-way places timber-mills have been made for cutting timber for the purposes of building homes and farm buildings;; and. if you impose these conditions it will mean that settlement will be retarded, and the sawmilling industry receive another setback. I would like to point out to the Prime Minister that the timber interests on the. West Coast are governed by the Mining Act. The timber licenses are regarded as mining privileges. I would refer the right honourable gentleman to section 148 of the Mining Act, which says,— “All rents, royalties, and fees received in respect of timber-cutting rights shall be deemed to be goldfields revenue in the case of rights granted within the Warden’s timber areas, and territorial revenue in the case of rights granted within the Land Boards’ timber areas: “Provided nevertheless as follows: “ (a) In the case of timber-cutting rights granted in respect of land which, pursuant to the contract between Her late Majesty and the New Zealand Midland Railway Company (Limited), was set apart as reserves for mining purposes, the rents, royalties, and fees shall be deemed to he goldfields revenue, notwithstanding that the land may be within the Land Board’s timber areas. “ (b) In eveiy case where, under any provision of this Act or any other Act, any Harbour Board or person is entitled to the rents, royalties, and fees received for mining privileges in respect of any land, such Board or person shall also be entitled to the rents, royalties, and fees received for timbercutting rights granted in respect of such land; and the same shall, in the prescribed nifinner, be paid oyer to such Board or person accordingly, and shall not h e deemed to • he territorial revenue.” I think the Prime Minister will remember a deputation that waited upon him from the local bodies on the West Coast. The deputation pointed out that the local bodies had not got the proportion of the rents and royalties which they shpujd have received; and they also pointed out the injustice that had beqn imposed upon them. And I think the Prime Minister will also re-

member that in 1913 lie assured a deputation that if any alteration took place in respect to the. allocation of rents and royalties they should .be informed of it. They did not realize u'liat the regulations were gbing to be. When the Bill was’ put through last session it left the matter over to be dealt with by regulations. In fairness to the local bodies I would like to point out that W'hen the Minister in charge of the Forestry Department visited the West Coast to discuss the matter, pf the position in which the local bodies would be placed, that position w’as put before him; he said that as far as the question of revenue to local bodies was concerned, that must be adjusted; and from that remark rye inferred that the matter w’ould he adjusted this session. I think I am not breaking confidence if I read an extract from a letter which I received two days ago from Sir Francis Bell, Minister in charge of the Forestry Department. He says,— “With regard to the local bodies’ revenue, I have always conceded that local bodies must have that matter dealt with by legislation on a basis which will prevent undue loss of income to them; but it has been obviously impossible to establish a new finance in that respect during the present session.” Ido not think that is fair. Ido not see why a special subclause could not have been put through in order to put these people right, and in order to give them an assurance that they. are in a safe position. I think the Government should take into consideration the conditions .under which the sawmillers on the West Coast have taken up these areas of land—tlieir sawmilling-areas. The matter was regulated under the Mining Act, and the whole thing has been so involved and intricate that those principally concerned and interested do not think the question should be dealt with under the Timber Regulations drafted last session.

The Right Hon Mr Massey.—lt is so involved and intricate it cannot be dealt with in a session like this.

Mr Seddon.—l do not agree with the Right Hon the Prime Minister, because the matter has already been before the Minister in charge o.f the Forestry Department, and I do not think the matter is one that would delay or perplex the House at all. The sawmillers might be put in a fair position by a very simple addition to the Act, which could be' made even now. These sawmillers have had licenses granted to them under certain conditions and regulations • whioh were made under the Mining Act. Regulation 108 is one, 109 another, and 110 another. I will read only one. Regulation 110 says—

“When making his application for ‘ the license, or at any time thereafter during the currency of the license, rue applicant or licensee may, by application in the form numbered 67 in the First Schedule hereto, apply to have reserved for him one or more additional areas of not more than 400 acres each, adjoining each other, reserved for his’ exclusive use. The total areas’ so granted shall not exceed the following: Where the necessary outlay to erect mills, sidings, tramways, etc., does not exceed £I,OOO, 400 acres; £2,000, 800 acres; £3,000, 1,200 acres; £4,000, 1,600 acres. ...” I should like to stress" the point that , under the conditions prevailing here all the sawmillers on the West Coast covered by the Mining Act have spent a considerable amount of money constructing their mills and plant, laying clown tramways, and doing other things, and they want an assurance that the rights they have taken up will be safe-guarded; and if we can get. that; assurance from the Right Hon the Prime Minister or the Minister in charge that will be satisfactory. The, Minister in charge of the Forestry Department says, “With regard to the reserved areas for sawmillers, I will refer the questions with which you deal for reconsideration by Cabinet after the session.” But after the session has closed there will be no one here to reply to any conditions which may be laid down by the Government, and I think the Right. Hon the Prime Minister should in the House to-night make a promise to me on behalf of the sawmillers that they will not he unfairly dealt with, but give me an assurance that the conditions of their licenses shall he fulfilled.

The Right Hon Mr Massey.—There will be no unfair dealings with them, l can tell you that. Mr Seddon. —But what I want to know is- that the timber can be milled under the conditions on which the millers took up their licenses. They have milled .under those conditions, and they want to continue to work their areas under the conditions which prevailed before the regulations came into force. Ido not think there is a, question of compensation, but the leases are somewhat complicated and involved. These men bona fide have taken up the reserves on tlie licenses, and their rights should be safeguarded iuntil the areas are milled, and not be hindered by a number of new and needless regulations. I should like an assurance that these matters will be dealt with this session.

Mr Hudson (Motueka). —I wish to make two or three remarks in connection with this. Bill; and before doing so I should like to congratulate the honourable member who has just resumed his seat (Mr Seddon) on the very clear and full 1 * manner in which he lias brought forward the position with regard to forestry matters on the "West Coast. The position is very similar in my electorate not only on the West Coast, but also on the east coast, and particularly in Collingwood County, which has suffered very severely indeed by being deprived of the royalties on timber granted under the Warden. The. position is to them very extreme. The county is a poor one, and there is a considerable mileage of cartage in connection with the timber. From the mills to the sea is between fifteen and twenty miles, the roads are considerably cut up, and the county is in no way compensated. I have had this matter before the Commissioner of State Forests for several months, possibly a year, and he lias given me) somewhat similar replies to that which the honourable member for Westland has received. I am very much disappointed to hear that legislation is to be further postponed in connection with granting relief. I hayc had vague promises that the county, although they do not derive revenue directly from the timber royalties, would be compensatect. in other ways, but nothing has been 1

done as far as I kndwj I join with the honourable member in requesting tne Prime Minister to do something during the present session, if it is possible, to make some definite arrangement for the compensation of counties which are suffering in this way. -It is a particularly serious matter to the county to which I refer, and they have been obliged to arrange for the raising of a 1 loan to enable them to finance the county at all. I should be very sorry to see relief postponed beyond the pre* sent session. I hope the Prime Minister in his reply will give some assuiance that relief in this matter will be granted.

Mr tR. W. Smith (Waimarino). —Sir, this Bill provides for the setting-aside of endowment lands as State forests. I do not know that we need Object to that, because in the event of too much land being set aside as State forests the time will come when the restrictions will have to be relaxed. If we have the®timber standing in New Zealand and the people require it, it is easy to 6ee that the restrictions will will have to be lifted and the timber made available for the public. Sir, I wish to refer particularly to a grave injustice that wa s done in connection with the gazetting of the Timber Regulations, to the millers of tlio Most Const. A little time ago a deputation waited on the Prime Minister in connection with the matter. We hoped ,to have Sir Francis Bell present, as he is Minister in charge of the Department, hut unfortqpately be was unable to be present. Many years ago, and from time to time, the millers on the West Coast have taken up milling-rights, and have been led .to believe that the reservations held for - them would l>e millable under the same conditions as existed when the rights were granted. As was pointed out by the honourable member for Westland, many of the millers have been led into a false position, because they decided, on the area of land they took up, as to the class of mill they would erect. In addition, they had also to decide on the class and quantity of tramways they would put down.’ Added to that, they had, with the bigger mills, to erect more workers’ cottages, and in every way they have been led into expending a larger sum of money than they would have spent had they .had any suspicion that the conditions under which they were to mill the timber were going to be altered. As pointed out by the member for Westland, when the millers took up the areas they were led to believe that the whole .of the area over which they had reservation would be available to them under the same conditions ps- the smaller areas they wjere then actually cutting. Like a thunderclap, without any notice, came the Timber Regulations, and one of the conditions is that in the areas set apart as reservations the millers are to have no right to export the timber therefrom. I do not hesitate to say that that is a complete breach- of the contract that was made with the millers on the West Coast. Fortunately, it does not apply to the millers in the North Island, so that'l c a n speak quite freely about .it. <Sir, it is an absurd restriction to make, for this reason: that the same body of men w ho made ! the restrictions also decided that the amount of export of timber from New Zealand should be restricted, and today millers have to obtain a-license for every foot that is exported. I am not: complaining about it; I recognise that New Zealand’s requirements should be considered first. But. this is the position : To-day the millers have the right to export a. given amount of timber; but the regulations prevent the millers of the West Coast from exporting timber, though allowing the millers in tlie North' Island to export their timber, and what is going to happen is this: that, whilst the regulations have provided that only a given number of feet of timber shall leave New Zealand, they have put the millers on the Coast in the position that although when they took up milling-rights years ago they were led to believe that they could export timber, they had been stopped. Now, if this “no export” condition is insisted upon it will result in the millers from the North Island exporting their timber from here. The timber from the Main Trunk line will go to Wanganui, Wellington, or Auckland, and will be. shipped from there to Australia, and timber from the West Coast —the export of which the regulations prevent—will be carted from the West Coast mills to the seaboard, from there to Wellington by boat, and from Wellington by train up the Main Trunk line. Is that, Sir, a businesslike proposition? If the authorities have decided that New Zealand . shall export only a certain amount of timber, then let us be businesslike and export the. timber that can be got away most cheaply. Do not let us overlap in connection with the freight on timber. I do ask the Minister to take this suggestion of mine into his most serious consideration. We are not asking that the amount for export shall be exceeded, but are asking that the millers who are milling in a district where there is no sale for the timber should have the right to export; That would conserve the timber that is milled in other districts for those districts. But as sure as we are alive, if these restrictions are insisted upon—and I say this again at the risk of tedious repetition—the timber from the West Coast will be sent from there to the North Island, whilst North Island timber will be sent down to the seaboard and shipped away to comply with the contracts made outside. I do therefore hope the Minister will give this his personal attention and liave the matter rectified. There is just one other point I would refer to. We are all anxious to conserve the timber we have in New Zealand, but at present no encouragement is given to people who hold timber. Timber today is rateable just as if it were land, and the people who hold it for milling are paying to the local bodies rates upon it just as they do upon land. That, condition of affairs should be remedied, because if we want to conserve the timber that we have we should not allow the local bodies to continue collecting rates upon it. I know of an instance of people paying rates to the extent of 4jjd in the pound on standing timber. If the miller carts his timber by road the local bodies have the right to make him repair the roads; hut -I am safe in saying that nine out of every ten millers do not cart their timber on the roads, because it would not pay them to do so. You cannot convey it profitably by road, and therefore yon. must tram it, although, there may be a good metalled road to the railway-Btation at

which the timber is to be loaded. Thus it would not pay the miller, except in very odd cases; to cart his timber by road. He puts down a tram and the whole of the timber from his mill goes over it and therefore does no damage to the road. But notwithstanding this, year after year the local bodies continue to collect rates upon the standing timber. It is a gross injustice, I suggest to the Prime Misister that he look into the position and arrange that people holding timber for milling purposes are made exempt from paying rates to local bodies. The local bodies, as I have stated, have the right to make any one carting timber over the roads - pay for any damage they do, and surely that should be sufficient security for tlio local body. They have the right to prohibit it, and in the Waimarino County they have done so during winter months. That-being so, surely it is unfair to those who are doing their best to conserve timber that they should be called on to pay rates on timber just as if it was land. Now, so far as the appointment of a Chief Forester is concerned, I hope that those in authority will see that every encouragement is given to qualified people of the Dominion to apply for this position, but I think that when the result of the applications is known it will be found that Mr Hutchins will become Chief Forester. I sincerely hope I am wrong, because he is the most impractical man I have ever beard discuss New Zealand forests.

Mr Thomson.—He is a good writer on the subject. Mr R. W. Smith.—Ho may be able to write on the subject; but I do hope, before he is appointed, that those who are going to appoint him will sit down before him for an hour and get him to lecture to them on Nerv Zealand forests and forestry. If they do that I am quite sure what the result will be. The Right Hon Mr Massey (Prime Minister). —Mr Speaker, I want to refer briefly to one or two points that have been raised during the debate. One matter is in regard to the appointment of a forester. That is necessary in connection with the Department. I do not know whether we have any suitable man in New Zealand trained sufficiently for the position; if so, let us have a New’ Zealander. So far as lam concerned, if we can find a man in New Zealand suitable for the position that has to be occupied we shall not go outside. If there is no one suitable here,. then we will have to go to another country where w r e can find one. With regard to the local bodies.’ revenue, and especially the revenue of the local bodies on the West Coast, the matter, as indicated by the honourable member representing the district, is an exceedingly complicated and difficult one, and it has become more difficult as time goes on. I do not think it Is possible to deal with it this session. I know how difficult it is; I have looked into the matter on tw r o or three occasions for myself, and on each occasion I got up against a dead end. I was not able, to get the information I wanted, and I think it will be necessary to set up something in the nature of an official inquiry to go to the .very bottom ofwhat the existing trouble is, and what ; has been tlie cause of it. I admit that the local bodies must have revenue, and I think they should get a share of the timber revenue. How it is going to be done I am not able to say, but if ; you ask me to give directions to the Law Draftsman what to put in a Bill to make it right I am not in a position to do so. The sawmillers should have justice, too. As a matter of fact, this Bill does not affect them at all. It sets apart more timber for use, which in course of time will be utilized by the sawmilling industry and will reach the public through them. Mr Witty.—lt is more for planting than cutting ? The Right Hon Mr Massey.—Yes, partly. It is for future generations as .well as for the present generation. It was suggested that what was being done by the new Department would probably interfere with settlement, and was interfering now. I want to assure the House and the country that nothing of the sort is intended, nor will it have the suggested result. We certainly shall not utilize land for reafforestation when w r e require it for settlement, and especially so seeing that we have huge areas of land that will grow timber particularly well, and whioh is not suitable for either agricultural or pastoral purposes. Nothing will be allowed to interfere with the development of settlement.

Mr R. W. Smith (Waimarino).—l should like the Minister to look into the “no export” clause provided under the new regulations. I am not suggesting that the amount should be increased, but that the timber shpuld he taken from suitable points.

The Right Hon Mr Massey.—Yes. We are all working at very high pressure—Ministers, heads of Departments, and Draftsmen —and to an extent never before experienced. Bill read a second and a third time.