PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Weekly Times, Volume 2, Issue 76, 15 June 1868, Page 1 (Supplement)

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

, Wednesday, June 10. The Speaker took the chair, at 3. o'clock; Present-All the members except Mr. Carlyon.' Loan Appropriation. Mr. -Buchanan, pursuant to notice, moved—- ’ For - ’a return ■of -the sums’ expended since the passing of the Loan Appropriation Act,. Session 8 No; 4, for the several purposes therein set forth, stating the amounts charged respectively to annual votes "of Council and to the appropriations made by the said Act; the outstanding charges or liabilities (if any), and- tbe totals in each case. —He thought it desirable that the Council should have this return before proceeding with the consideration of the Loan Appropriation Amendment Bill, or of the estimates. 1 Mr. M‘Lean , in seconding the motion, said that-tlic Government had no objection to laying this information before the Council. Agreed to.

Educational Statistics. Mi\, Wood, pursuant to notice, moved — that His Honor the Superintendent be requested to lay otr the table a return, shewing 1. A list of educational endowments within the province, aud the annual rental derivable from each. 2. A list;of schools within the province, showing in what proposed educational district they are situate, and what aid each lias received from Government during the financial year about to end. . 3. An estimate of the number of rateable householders witbiu each proposededucatioual district, and the estimated amount to be derived in each such district from the collection of rates. 4. And, generally, such other statistical information as may serve to guide members in considering the Education Bill now before the Council. —The object of the motion was so obvious that he considered that no time need be taken up by explanation. Agreed to. Allowance to Country Members. Mr. Buchanan, pursuant to notice, moved: — That the number of days for which country members sh.-ill be entitled to draw the customary allowance for attendance during the present sittings, shall not exceed fifteen ; or. in the event of His Excellency the Governor’s arrival delaying the Council business, eighteen. —ln these days of economy, when reductions were being made in the salaries of Government officers, and necessary public works had to be suspended for want'of means, he thought it would be only proper for the Council to set their own house in order—to bring their reductions nearer home by restricting the honorarium, they had hitherto received, and thus showiug that their desire for economy was real and disinterested. He thoughttlie proposition was perfectly fair .and reasonable. The motion not being seconded, the Council passed on the consideration of the next notice.

Provincial Institutions. Mr. Buchanan, pursuant to notice, asked— Whether the Superintendent has had in his consideration (lie question so prominently engagitig the public mind in New Zealand, as to the. <let>ii ability of contiuuiug the provin cial system ; and if lie intends laking the opinion of tin's Council on the subject duriug tbe present session. —This,question had engaged the attention ot the public all over the colony; and no -doubt, had. been well considered by his Honor the Superintendent. As it was peculiarly a Government question, it was the duty,of the Government to bring it under the notice of the Council. His Honoe said that the public mind was at present much engaged with this question; and, as far as-the Government were concerned; they would be happy to invite an expression of the opinion of the Council on tile subject. . He should like that opinion tp be in such a form that he and his, colleague might bring it under the notice of. the General Government in the Houseof Representatives. Educational Reserves. Major Lambeet, pursuant to notice, moved.-- « : That his Honor the Superintendent will cause ' to be laid on the table a return of all the lands-in the Province seiaside for educational purposes, shewing.' the acreagg, where - situated, and the rental; 1 if any,: derived from •- such lands, with the name of: the tenants.' . —His- object was ; to elicit information: wMcßmightAssist members in considering the .proposed 'Ediication Act. . The ' member for Havelock almost taken the x wmd' ; outf ; qfi-hisiisailsf; .biit no, harm would 'be done-by laying- the : return* on thb table; > Agrced-to-v \ ' v: Wednesday, June 10. Orders. Mr. Febaed, pursnant to notice, moved— That upon Standing -Orders be ve*appbintod;-,to consist of the same .membersfM laßb eesßion,and that the Standing Ordera’ recom mended by them for the adoption ; of TheVGoahoil be referred to them- for further " ednstderatiohi axid that it; be. an instruction to

them to alter proposed rules 11 and 12, as tending to throw doubt upon the right of thiß Qouucilto choose its own Speaker ; to expunge all orders purporting to control the Superintendent' in the exercise of - his office; to lake especial care that the Standing Orders as t-o summonsing witnesses'and preserving order, bo in strict accordance with the “ Privileges Act 1856” ;• to recommend Standing Orders as to election of a Chairman of Committees, as to the election and duties of a Clerk, and as to the appointment of Standing .Committees to superintend the printing and library of the Council, and to recommend orders for the guidance of such committees.

—ln the proposed standing orders it was ordered that the election of the Speaker should be confirmed by the Superintendent. This was contrary to the New Provinces Act, which provided that the election of a Speaker by the Council should bo at once valid and effectual. There were powers granted to the Chairman of Committees, and no provision for his election; there were also allusions made to the duties of the clerk, and no provision for his appointment. There .were many other errors, which the select committee could best rectify. Mr. A’Deane seconded the motion pro forma. He could see how the errors originated. The standing orders had been taken principally from those of the House of Representatives and Provincial Council of Wellington, the committee forgetting that the Province of Hawke’s Bay was constituted under a different Act from the old Provinces. ' Ho hoped they would not be deprived of the valuable assistance of the mover of the motion before the house, and would therefore move as an amendment that the name of Mr. Pcrard be added to the committee.

Mr. Febaed objected on the ground of want of experience. Mr. Tannee would support the amendment. The member for the town had evidently given the matter very careful consideration.

Mr. Obmond suggested that Mr. Ferard’s name might be substituted for his own. He would not be able to attend on the committee.

Lieut.-Col. WniTMOEE would rather that Mr. Fcrarcl’s name should be substituted for liis. His other duties would quite forbid his attendance.

Major Lamb uet proposed' that an entirely new committee should be appointed, As one of the old committee ho objected to sit altogether. . Mr. W ood, as one of the old committee, Would wish his name struck off*. It would be simply impossible that he could attend. He thought the suggestion of the mc.mber for Waipukurau worthy of attention. Mr. Buchanan" thought the old rules aud orders had worked very well for several years, and a new code could well be deferred for another session, if there was ever to be another. He had warned the Council last year that the preparation of new standing rules and orders was no trifling task. Major Lambeet proposed that the name of the Speaker should be added. He considered the presence of the Speaker in a committee of this nature as of vital importance. The Speaker said that pressure of business would quite prevent his attendance. He would therefore avail himself of his privilege, and decline. Major Lambert hoped tlic Speaker would reconsider his decision. The Speaker said lie could not. Major Lambeet would propose the name of a member of the Government, Mr. Kennedy. . Mr. Kennedy was very sorry, but be would be quite unable to give proper attention to the subject. Major Lambeet thought the house should insist on tlie compliance of some members. He should propose as a committee, Messrs. Ferard, Buchanan, Tanner*, and’ Carlyon. Mr. Buchanan f May I remind the member for Waipukurau that under the present standing rules and orders a motion for a committee must include the name of the mover ?

Major Lambeet : I think I will withdraw the motion. Mr. Tannee moved that the whole question should be referred to the Provincial Solicitor. The pamphlet should be taken as a whole,. and submitted to that gentleman’s opinion. , Lient.-Colonel Whitmore would support the last amendment. He saw nothing in it derogatory, to, the dignity of the Council. - : ,

Mr. Buchanan would support.; the last: amendment, as it would give such an- excellent instance of the .practical working‘of. the new standing , rule.' He hoped the Provincial Solicitor would find the book very instructive and pleasant roading.

. Mr. Febaed hoped the amendment would not pass; It would; be utterly unbecoming for them to refer to the Provincial Solicitor the rules by which their proceedings were to be conducted. That officer would no doubt say, Conduct 'yoursblYeb: like? gentlemen;”: ;■; . : Mrf Rhodes thought The, rules imight very well be submitted to the Provincial - Solicitor; They -would he quite safe with him; - i'- ■ -

After some , further debate of a desultory nature, the question was postponed until after the rest of the business had been disposed of. Loan Appropriation. Mr. Oemond, pursuant to notice, moved— For leave to bring in a bill to amend tho “ Loan Appropriation Act,” Session 8, No. 4. Thcmotion was agreed to; the Bill was read a first time ; ordered to be printed ; and the second reading ordered for Tuesday. Address to his Excellency. Mr. M‘Lean brought up the report of the committee appointed to prepare an address to his Excellency, and moved that it be read; The report was read and adopted. Post Office and Telegraph Reserve. Mr. LocKe, pursuant to notice, moved — That, in the opinion of this Council, the Government, reserve bounded by Emerson-streat, Tennyßon-strcot, and Hastings-street will be a more eligible site for the General Post Office and Telegraph Station than the sile at present intended; and that the Superintendent be requested to offer to the General Government a portion thereof, in lieu of the land lately conveyed to them. —He had presented a petition on this subject, largely signed by the townspeople, and had very little need to supplement it with any remarks. The Government buildings’ enclosure was tbe only public square in the town, except Clive square, aud tbe idea of adding another building to it was not favored by the people. The proposed site had also many advantages which this had not. Mr. Rhodes seconded the motion. Mr. A’Deane would oppose tho motion. It of course arose from the petition on the subject which had been presented by that member. He did not believe that petition expressed the views of the great body of tbe electors of Napier. Out of 279 names on the roll, there were only 70 on the petition. There was, too, a wider question involved than the wishes of tho inhabitants of the town—there was that of public convenience. In the old.country the spirit of the time was to have the public offices as near to each other as possible. Ho believed, however, it was now too late to interfere with the site, as the tenders had been already sent in. Mr. Rhodes said that he could not agree that it w*as the spirit of the age to have the public buildings all together. He did not know of any single instance where this was the.case. In Wellington the post office anil government buildings were at opposite ends of tbe town. As for the facilitation of business, he did not believe it would matter much whether it was at the Spit or the end of the White-road, or any where between. So far as the plea of economy was concerned, the post and telegraph office being built on tho site named by the petitioners would so enhance the value of the remainder of tlie reserve as to be a considerable gain to tlie province. Mr. Tannee would support the motion. He thought the town residents were the best qualified to judge in the matter. Mr. Sutton considered that the petition was in a manner a secret one. Many of the electors knew nothing of it.- His opinion was that the site proposed by the Government was the best in Napier. A great many of the signatures were those of nonresidents, and the greater part of the residents signing it were on the Whiteroad and some eight or ten from tlie Spit. He would oppose the motion. Mr. Febaed thought the site fixed upon by Government would be more convenient to” the merchants at the Spit, who would principally use it, than the one proposed in the petition; but as the opinion of the public seemed to be otherwise, he should support the motion.

Lieut-Col. Whitmoee would oppose the motion, as the site suggested in the petition was the market reserve, which he thought should be applied to the purpose for which it was intended. Mr. Wood said that it was difficult for a town resident to divest his mind of his private interest in this , matter. For his own part he was one of those who would have most occasion to use the telegraph and would like it to he near his office; but; apart altogether, from this motive, he considered that'the site proposed in the petition was the true one,, as the.town was rapidly extending in that direction. Major Lambeet could appreciate the: difficulty felt by Town members in divesting their minds of; personal interests. It was quite true that in. the old country all The public offices were being concentrated, at A vast expense, and it was bad to inaugurate the contrary system here. .. The .site proposed:by the petition was not the centre ofibusiness./, The mercantile establishments were all at The, Spit, and, until recently, one ; of the Banks had been halfway between .it. and the town. He did not think the public feeling was very strong in this matter. ’ Twenty-out of eyery fifty people: would; sign i almost any petition. iHe would vote againstThe.motion; Mr;,JßucjQLANAN_.said the general;gist of the accusations. aga.inst.Tho,; petition was that it-was .a liolerand-corncr proceeding;

This was hardly consistent with fact. The number of electors signing it, seventy, was a large proportion of a constituency where the largest number who had ever voted was 120. There had been no counter petition, although plenty of time had been afforded for one, and at present this must be taken as representing the views of tbe inhabitants of Napier. He would support the motion. Mr. M‘Lean said this question had been raised rather late, as the land had been surveyed, marked out, and conveyed to the General Government, and adverisemonts for contracts, issued, for which tenders had already gone in. A deputation, however, had afterwards waited upon him, expressing a strong conviction that the site proposed in the petition was the best, and he felt there was much in favor of their argument. He promised to refer the question to the Provincial Council. The motion was then put and carried on the following division:— Ayes, 8 Messrs. M‘Lean, Rhodes; Locke, Wood, Ferard, Buchanan, Weston, and Tanner. Noes, Q —Messrs. Sutton, Dolbol, Whitmore, A’Deane, Lambert, and Parsons. Hampden Road.

Mr. A’Deane, pursuant to notice, asked— Why a sum of £2OO, voted by this Council for the road to Hampden from Napier has not been expended in improving that road. —He brought the subject of this road before the Council last session, and with great difficulty managed to get the sum of £2OO placed on the estimates for repairing it. This had certainly not been spent, and the road was now in such a state that the draymen preferred making a detour of some twenty extra miles to travelling on it. Mr. M‘Lean said that the sum of £4O had been spent on the road, which was now in very tolerable condition. The whole sum appropriated would have been spent, but for absolute want of funds. Standing Rules cmd Orders. On this subject being resumed, Lieut.Colonel Whitmoee moved the following amendment:— That the Select Committee appointed last session to prepare new standing orders be reappointed, and tbat Mr. Ferard’s name be added thereto, and that it be an instruction to them to revise the proposed standing orders printed by order of the Council, and to place a draft standing orders in the hands of the Superintendent, with a request that he will be so good as to submit the same to tbe Provincial Solicitor, with a request that he will point out any provision which it is beyond the powers of this Council to enact. Major Lambeet seconded the amendment, which was agreed to. On the motion, of Mr. Rhodes, the Council then adjourned.

Thuesday, June 11. The Council met at 3 p.m. Present, all the members except Mr. Carlyon. Petition. Mr. Wood presented a petition from certain Roman Catholic inhabitants of Na-., pier, objecting to the provisions .of The proposed Education Bill, and praying the Council not to pass it without mature, consideration. Petition read and received. Committee of Supply. On the motion of Mr. Osmond the Council went into committee of supply. Mr. Osmond made his financial statement. He said that the estimated revenue for the year ending 30fch June, 1868, was £36,305, which had not been realized. The actual revenue or rather actual receipts for the year was £25,751, leaving an apparent deficit of £10,554 on last year’s estimates. This deficit, however, did not actually exist, for a sum of £5,171 had been x*eceived by the receiver of land revenue on account of territorial revenue; which had been impounded by tbe General Government on account of the permanent charges against the Province, such as interest on the old land purchase loan; Wellington debt, &c., so that the actual deficiency of revenue as compared with the estimate was £5,453. In a paper which ho would lay on the table would be found a detailed comparative statement of the estimated and actual revenue, the estimated receipt under each item being placed, in one column, and the actum amount received in . another. From this it would be seen that the deficiency occurred chiefly from the estimated territorial revenue not having been realized. There was an item of £2,714 on account of land purchases against the Province of Auckland, which had not been realized. The Superintendent of that Province fully admitted the liability; but had been quite unable to find funds to meet it. Again, under the head of miscellaneous, the levies of the toll-bar had only realized £l9O, in place' of £2,000; as - estimated.- This was in consequence of the delay which, from unforseencircumstances, had oceuried in bringing the “ Toll-Bar Actf’intooperation. The acoounts had been made up to the end of the last month, with l the stuns estimated as, outstanding -added. He had now shown the deficiency of revenue as compared with the; estimate Tor

tiio year ending J une 30th, 1868. He would wow have to. make a short explanation whiiek would inform the Couucil as to the estimated position of the bank account July,, 1868. Out of the £2o, 7 51 which he had mentioned as being the actual receipts for the year, must be deducted £4BO, which, though due this month, and therefore necessarily appearing under this head in the Provincial 1 reusurer s books, they did not expect to get, thus reducing the sum to £25,271. lo this had to be added £B2B, the sum that was in the hands of the Provincial Jtngiueer as an advance on the Ist July, 1867, making the entire sum that had and would accrue as revenue, £26,099. The statement of expenditure showed the dis- , bursemonts during the. same period to be £28,513, or, in other words, £2,404 more than the receipts. This sum of £2,404, then, represented the estimated overdraft tor the year. The statement of expenditure he would lay on the table would fully show the heads under which the various amounts had been expended. Now for the coming year, from the Ist July 1868 to the 30th June, 1869. Ho would first lay on the table the estimate of revenue for the commg year. The ordinary revenue which the ex P e cted to receive was £10,430, £B,OOO of which would be the piovincial share of the consolidated revenue, and the remainder sheep assessments, publicans’ licenses, harbor dues, &c. One thing worthy of mention was that tho ordinary revenue last year exceeded the estimate, and he believed that this was almost the only province in the colony where this had been the case. The • territorialrevenue was estimated at £6,000, ““ceUaneous, including rent of toll-bar, Papakura and Hikutoto rents, &c., £4,548; the sum total being £20,973. O.t this, £1,500, revenue, under the Tollgate Act, had already been appropriated to a particular purpose by that Act, leaving the revenue actually at the disposal of tho Council during tho ensuing year, £19,473. He would now proceed to the expenditure. In the preparation of the estimates a different form of arrangement had been followed from that adopted hitherto, and members would now more easily ascertain the expense that was incurred for tho different branches of tho provincial service. In framing these estimates the Government had mado every reduction they • thought possible, without abolishing some of the departments altogether. They thought- that, if the existing departments were to be retained at all, they could not be conducted at a less cost than ■jvas estimated. All salaries, with one or two exceptions, above £250 per annum had been reduced 20 per cent.; those below that sum had not been meddled with. The • ■ total- estimated expenditure for the year ending June 30, 1869, for all the different* services, including the administrative departments ; judicial, including police, ckari-. table, miscellaneous, &c.; and also including the permanent charges,, which were estimated for the year at £6245, was £16,119. To this had to be. added the overdraft at the Bank, £2,404, making £18,523, and leaving only £B2B available for public works and undertakings during the year. The sum total of expenditure was thus • £19,351 approaching very closely to the amount of estimated revenue, which, without the toll bar dues, was estimated at £19,473. He had now concluded the explanation he had to make as to the monetary position of the province and the proposals of 1 the Government for the. ensuing year. The Government had endeavoured to reduce the expenditure to the lowest possible amount, and they believed that no further reduction could take place unless whole branches of the service were dispensed with. The Government were, however, most desirous of meeting the views of the Council, if they deemed further reduction possible, and invited their assistance to that object. He, for his part, could not but feel that, when the resources of the province were so reduced that only £B3B was available for public works and immigration, that the time had come, when the main objects Tor the promotion of which provinces had been established, were placed beyond their power to further. For the ensuing year, and, possibly, for a year after that, money could be found out of the remainder of the £60,000 to keep open the main lines of road of thq province, and to do a little towards immigration; but this was only possible; if the unexpended portion of the loan were devoted, as it must be, to these .objects. He, trusted.. he . had. made the: statement he had just completed,, and which he had purposely confined, to as brief limits as possible,, plain and intelli--1 gible to the Council., He would now ex- ; plain to them the position of the £60,000 loan. Referring back to. the accounts for the, year ended June 30, 1867, members • would recollect that an expenditure out of , the loan to the extent of £7,691 had taken place. He upon the table a . statement of the expenditure under this , head, to the end of the year ending June ,30, 1868, which showed an expenditure : of £24,156 —: making the total, sum expended; to the termination ofthe present . financial year £31,847,. andldaving.unexr pended-a balance of about £28,150. Tins . balan.ce .the Council would be, asked to.reappropriate by Act during*; the, present session, and,he;would not forestall.the explanation ho would then have to. give as

to the objects on which the Government proposed it should be expended. Before; sitting down, lie would refer to a subject which was. worthy tho attention of tho Couucil. Members ‘ were aware that, under tlie present arrangement of the colonial revenues, certain charges, known as proviucial charges, .and which were appropriated by vote of tho Ifouso of Representatives, were taken out ofthe share of the consolidated revenues of the colony, nominally given to the provinces. Those Sroviueial ehargos on account of Hawke’s ay amounted, for the year ending the 30th Juue, 1868, to the sum of £6,342105., and were on account of the following services :

£0342 10 —His object in bringing this subject before them was to invite, on the’ part of members, an enquiry into the expenditure under these heads, and he believed he was correct iu saying that tho present premier of the Colonial Government had himself invited enquiry by the Provincial Councils, iuto the expenditure on account of provincial charges. At any rate, whether his recollection on this subject was correct or not, one thing was certain, that tho sum abovenamed of £6342 was actually abstractedfrom the share tlie province gets of the consolidated revenues; and if that sum could be reduced, the share coming to the province would be increased by the amount of such reduction. It was clearly a question of interest to the province, and one on which an expression of opinion from the Council would have proper weight. He believed he had now touched upon all the questions he had intended, and would move that the committee have leave to sit again on Tuesday next. The chairman then reported progress aud obtained leave to sit again on Tuesday next. .Finance Committee. Mr. Buchanan, pursuant to notice, moved—

That the estimates be referred to a Finance Committee, with instructions to report in two days. Such Committee to consist of Messrs. 31‘Lean, Ormond, Lambert, A’Deano*aud the mover.

—He thought tho course he now proposed was the one which would be most satisfactory to all parties. Mr M‘Lean. said tlie Government considered that the most convenient course would be to consider them in committee of the whole house. The question was one in which the whole Council was deeply interested, mid lie thought the desired end would be best attained by following that course.

Mr. Wood considered that it was peculiarly the function of a finance committee to consider such matters as the reduction or abolition of departments, such as had been referred to in the financial statement. It would be a more pleasant course for members than considering such things in open council, as well as be a great saving of time.

Mr. Oemond could not agree with the member who had last spoken. He thought this was no time for thiiiskinnedness, and was fully prepared to take his share of the obloquy which might fall upon the Council for the action they might take in reducing salaries or abolishing offices. Ho liked to work openly, and saw no advantage to bo gained by a small committee, which, after all, would have to come back to the Council with the result of its work. The Council would of course exercise its privilege of free discussion afterwards. If he saw that tho motion would, do any good he would support it. Otherwise, ho considered the committee proposed was as fair a one as possible; in fact, he thought the member opposite had taken all pains to have it perfectly impartial. Mrf'TANNEB said that the constitution of the proposed committee showed that the mover was not actuated by party feol r ing. If the object were to have the business discussed privately, a select committee would fail* as the whole matter would have to bo re-opened in Council. This object could be easily attained by the exclusion of the public during the discussion. -

sr Mr. Feeaed could not agree with the idea of private discussion in Council. He thought all its proceedings should be entirely public, if it was to have the confidence of the public. Members of a select ■committee might have motives of private spite imputed to them; which would be quite obviated by public discussion. He clid not like to see the salaries of hardworking officers reduced. He. would rather see the : money come out of tho pockets of the public.' He would oppose the motion.

. Lieut.-Col. W hitmoee thought that the public would be dissatisfied if they ,were excluded from'the debates of the Councilj and that it would be better if these matters wero discussed openly. . ; . Mr. Wood wished to explain; The conclusion that some members had drawn

from.his remarks—that ho wished to have anything secret about the discussion on the estimates, was. not a true one. Of course the report of the committee could be diseussedto any extent in the Council afterwards; but almost allcouncils had lately referred, in the first place, the subject of retrenchment to a select committee. Major Lahbebt wpuld support the motion, as ho believed- it would be a great benefit to the province. There could be no secrecy iu the matter, tho estimates were now lying on the table; they would be canvassed iu committee, and the committee’s report would be discussed in the whole house. Now, his experience of years in the Council had shown him the difficulty of making reductions in salaries; It was a singular fact that the moment the subject was mentioned a number of members were unexpectedly called out of the room. Another advantage of the committee would be that the estimates would bo more carefully gono_ through. Tho Government always hurried them through at such a dreadful rate that the members had really no time to consider them, and they were in consequence very carelessly gone through. [No, no, from Mr. Ormoml.] If there had been anything secret or unmanly in this suggestion he would have had nothing to do with it. There wore some people who thought it was unmanly and un-English to vote by ballot. These ideas were great stuff'. He thought the composition of the committee could nob be challenged. He should be sorry to see the public excluded from tlie debates of tho Council. Mr. Buchanan said that the main objection urged against the motion was that it was in a manner a secret proceeding. Novv, however excusable this objection might be in a member unacquainted with the forms of the house, it did not come well from the member for Porangahaa. Mr. Oemond : I spoke entirely witb reference to the remarks of the member for Te Aute. Mr. Tannee : I would remind tho member for Porangaliau that I did not speak until after him. (Laughter.) Mr. Oemond : It was the member for Havelock, then, who suggested that tho proceedings should be private. Mr. Wood : I said nothing of tho kind. Mr. Oemond : I remember a member saying that if this mailer was discussed in public certain members’ feelings miskt be hurt.

Mr. Buchanan would waive this point, as he could see that there had been a misunderstanding. He would take up tlie general question of secrecy. A select committeo was not necessarily secret, it might open its doors to the public, and this was very frequently done. It might evidence, and examine officers with reference to their duties. Of course a committee of the whole house could do the samo thing; but the sj'stem was so cumbrous that the work was usually left to select committees. He had no desire to shirk the responsibility of difficult questions, for if any member had brought obnoxious questions before the house) it was himself. He had. moved for reductions when not one member in the house would listeu to him. As for the charge of spite, ho was sorry that any member should give utterance to so low an opinion of the Council.

Mr. Feeaed : I said the public miglit think the committee actuated by private spite. Mr. Buchanan said that the whole proceedings of a committee were noted down, and printed with their report, and that the public had full and free access to them. He thought that, had such committees been appointed earlier, it might have prevented tho Government from lapsing into such a system of extravagance as they had carried on. It was now certainly time, as he bad said before, to set their house in order, and to go about financial reform iu a more extensive spirit than the Government had done. They had reduced the estimates to the full extent of their power, and had said that they were prepared to take their stand upon them; but there might be a section in the Council who thought they had not gone far enough. He did not see the force of the plea that the whole house could do it better, for he had always found two or three work better than a larger number. In tho construction of the committee he had not sought advico of auy single member—he had put down the names which appeared to him most suitable. He must press his motion to a division.

The motion was carried on tho following division : Ayes, - 7—Messrs Buchanan, Wood, Weston, Parsons, A’Deane, Dolbel and- Lambert. Noes, 6 Messrs M‘Lean, Ormond, Rhodes, Kennedy, Whitmore, Ferard. Standing Orders Committee . # Lieut.-Col. Wjutmobe, pursuant to notice, moved— That his name bo expunged from Standing Orders Committee, and Mr.- Buchanan's substituted. ' '

Mr. Feeaed opposed tho motion. He objected to, placing oh the committee the name of a member who had stated his belief'.that the old standing rules were sufficient. ;. said , the .remarks of the last speaker wore very true. He thought the present rules were more than suffi-

cient. Ho would join tho mcmler for Napier in this matter and" do as he did last year, when he voted against his name being placed on tho committee. Lieut.-Col. WriiTMOEE, then; .with the leave ol the Council,- divided liis motion aud moved that his name ho -expunged from the Standing Orders Committee. Agreed to. ;.. . .. Lieut.-Col. Wiiitmoke moved that Mr. Buchanan’s name bo added to the Standing Orders Committee. Agreed to on division, Messrs. Buchanan, Weston, and Ferard voting against the motion.

Waijpawa Telegraph Station. Mr. Tannee, pursuant to notice, moved—

For further information from tho Government relative to tho establishment of a Telegraph Station at Waipawa.

, —He wished to know whether tho practically unanimous resolution of the Couucil had been sent to the General Government, and, if so, whether auy reply had been received ; so that members might form an idea of the manner in which resolutions of Council, and public petitions wero received by the Government. Mr. A’Deane, in seconding the motion, said that his constituency complained of being out of reach of the telegraph, through the wishes of the Couucil not having been complied with.

.Education Act. Mr. Rhodes, pursuant to notice, moved—

Tho second reading of the Education Act. —Seeing the great diversity of opiuion that prevailed on this subject, ho thought the best course would be to refer the matter to a select committee.

Mr. Feeaed opposed the second reading of tho Bill, as he considered it utterly objectionable in principle. He did not at all approve of tho system of the Government levying a general rate, to be confined in its operation to the district where it was raised, as what would bo ample in one district would be to tally insufficient in another. This Bill would destroy the whole system of education at present existing in this province, aud as he considered it radically bad he would oppose it oil principle. Mr. Wood would oppose the second reading. The necessity for an Act on this subject was admitted on all hands, but it was to be regretted that the Government had not given the subject more consideration, and produced something less crude than the measure before the Council. In fact tho Bill as it stood was utterly unworkable. Although Napier would be by far the largest payer of rates, this Act did not apply, to a single school in it. Its provi-. sions wereapplicable only todistrictsehools,' as shewn by the proviso that local boards could enter'into possession of all schools, and to no denominational school. Then as to country districts, the fact of each district being expected to supply its own requirements, would, in many sparsely populated districts, be tantamount to shutting up the school altogether; The Act would be inoperative alike in town or country. Then as to the rate, he observed that a uniform rate 011 houses was contemplated, but he questioned tlie justice of imposing the same tax upon a low valued, as upon a high valued house. He was very desirous to see an Educational Bill passed, but could not assent to the principle of this one. Ho would however he favorable to referring to a select committee the preparation of another measure.

Mr. A’Deane opposed flic second reading. He consitlered that the best course would be to place the matter in the hands of a committee, which, he had no doubt, could frame a thoroughly workable Education Act, ono which would be a credit to the province.

Lieut. rCol. Whitmobe opposed the second reading. He believed that an Education Act was necessary, but considered that it was a shameful thing that there were such a number of teachers in. tlie province receiving Government aid, many of whom had. only three or four scholars. It was the same all over the country, the. Government paying for schoolsand schoolmasters with no scholars; their money -positively thrown away, till the office of schoolmaster had become a kind, of refuge for the destitute. The fault was in the parents not sending their children to school, and he .trusted that, whether they were active or passive in the matter, they would be soon mado to pay. He thought the bill before the house would.be totally unavailing, and that an entirely new one should be framed. Ho believed.tkat the rate should be applied to a school for indigent .children in . some central part of the Province. Parents were usually so indifferent about; their children’s education that, the present system was virtually subsidizing schools for tLe benefit of two or three.families. He sLould support a till for compulsory education as well as compulsory, payment, as ho believed that education was the general duty of all; ' ..... . The second reading was ultimately postponed till Tuesday.

Toll~gateActAm<mdmvent. \ Mr. Sutton* pursuant to notice* move—

The secondreading of theToll-gatoAmend-rneat Act;• ! *

After some discussion, the motion Was lost on a. ; division." ' ' - ’

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