MR. STAFFORD'S ADDRESS

Hawke's Bay Weekly Times, Volume 2, Issue 73, 25 May 1868, Page 125

MR. STAFFORD'S ADDRESS

TO ' : ‘ THE NELSON ELECTORS.

• : vrf ‘ LFr°m the Nelson Examiner, 7th May.J -. .The Hon. B. W. Stafford met his consti- • the . electors of Nelson, in the Provincial. Hall, onSaturday, the 2nd May. j.Th® meeting was one of the largest ever j. Nelson* parts of the : building .being vrell filled-; and among the au- . dience were. a. a timber of ladies. Mr Stafford entered the Hall at half-past 7 'o’olock. , . On the motion of DrIBViNE, his Honob f ,:'the Superintendent took the chair. The Chajbman, after stating the object of the meeting, said he was quite sure the • large, audience would follow the customary course, adopted by. a Nelson audience, a course , wliich he had frequently benefited hirhselfj.that of giving to a speaker a ; *air, patient, and attentive, hearing. Mr Staefoed, who was received with cheers mingled with some hisses; then ad- . dressed the meeting,, as followsMr Chairman and Gentlemen-—ln taking the ..chair, his Honor the Superintendent referred, with honorable recognition, to the reception which, as & public man, had / .been accorded to him on occasions when he addressed the electors. Prom none more than myself is due a full recognition . similar receptions experienced by me from the people of Nelson, extending over the long period of fourteen years. (Hear, hear.) Although some hard things have been said by some of the people in my absence, yet I have always found, when the opportunity has been accorded to me Of meeting you all face to face, that you baye treated me fairly on receiving explanations yvith; respect ,to matters not previously understood,' and always accorded mearenewal of that confidence which it is a pleasure, for me to think that I have so, long,.enjoyed. It is with particular .satisfaction that-1 have now an opportupity of meeting the electors of ithis city. Xhaye ever considered it to be not only a duty to the electors, but an advantage to their., representative,'that periodical interviews, should take place between them ; and I. am especially happy to have an opportunity of addressing you at the present moment, as I, am aware’that there has been, a good deal of misapprehension, and, I may say of* misrepresentation also, res peoting; the conduct of the Government, whiph I hope now to be able to explain to the satisfaction' of this large meeting. (Hear, hear.) But before entering on general questions, I find myself compelled to refer, to matters which are* specially personal to myself. I had hoped that on the preseqt .occasion I should .have been able to aVoid all. allusion to matters of a merely personal character; but, in view of this meeting to-night,- there have- appeared ih both the local papers certain remarks which compel me to allude to them. I shall first refer to the Colonist, published yesterday. I find that the Colonist, in a leading article on the past and the future —which could have no other effect than that of prejudicing the public in anticipation of any explanations which I might offer this'evening—says it did not want to hear explanations of the past ; that, in fact, it was “ too late” to refer to the past, and that members, ought - merely to state beforehand what course they intend to pursue in. the future. Ido not know whether or not it occurred to the Colonist that if it were “too late” to refer to the past in terms of praise or explanation, eurely, in justice, .it was also “too late” to do so in termß of censure. "But I a® pot content to accept that position, and notwithstanding the opinion of the Colonist, I shall refer to the past. The Colonist also-selected a most unfortunate illustration,. ih instancing the- “Public Debts Act” as one to which it was- now too lafo to refer, and in .asserting that no intimation had previously been given that it , was intended, to submit it to the Legislature,as this, act was specially announced . beforehand.. The Colonist could not therefore have chosen a more unfortunate illustration than _tbis act j . for if the public was ever distinctly informed as to any one question, more than another,it was informed thatthe Government intended to propose. to. guarantee the .provincial- loans. I wrote A despatch to Mr . Ward before he left for England,; indicating the intentions of the Government, which- despatch was printed m. the local journals, including the .Colonist, (bl ear, bear.) How coiild the Government, have more clearly indicated ite.intehtiqhs, if I had, as suggested by the Colbnistj Communicated the fact viva voce to the electors.?;-It may be Boid possibly, that this, dispatch did not:give in detail the nature of the measure. (Hear, hear.) “* It .is imppssible to anticipate the exact shape in which any measure will pass, and in this instance-the-bill was. brought- into the House in one shape and passed in another. ...There were only . 'two. '*> political measures submitted to the Legislature last.session, one being the bill to conephdate the., provincial debts, and the - other lhe, ,Government Bill. „ Public attention had been directed to both , questions. The first had been recommended ih the Bpeeoh' of' the 1 Governor on opening Parliament: for . threesuccessive - sessions; the other had been -announced in the ■ bif the previous,- ;session and.threieof my colleagues in the Ministry, k /-Mr. Major Richardson, and Mr Bichspeeches,..stated thattheGovernment intended to’ brihg ih l a uwagarh. ph the subject, (Hear, hear;)

I could-^qfr.ha^et^^^.^Cthing' more than was as to these two great question s~/yiofc. i a word more could have been said &o”'far as. regarded the intentions of the Government. "So" much for what has been said by the Colonist. ‘ I shall now quote from the Examiner of this morning. Speaking of myself, it says:—

. When last elected; he was regarded as the c’ ,'npion of economical government—the enemy of extravagance in. public affairs in any and every form. Mr Stafford has not realised the expectations then entertained of him, and he will this evening have an opportunity of explaining what needs explanation in his conduct, and of justifying the course he has adopted.

—Now, although this does not directly say that I-was. elected under false pretences, yet a legitimate conclusion might be drawn from these sentences that such was the case. (Hear, hear.) That “ hear, hear ”is an evidence that my interpretation of the language is no£ incorrect. Now the Nelson Examiner—as.are all the leading papers of the colony—is furnished with the statistics, Gazettes, Parliamentary journals, and all public accounts, and, before making such a statement, it might-have taken the trouble to refer to the volumes on its own shelves to arrive at the facts correctly. I did not intend going so far back .as that statement now obliges me to do, but in self-defence I must refer to documents .which are open to every man in the room—printed documents, to be found, in every public library in the country. Special allusion has been, made to a statement made by me before I last took office, to the. effect that the Government might •be carried on. for some £240,000. less than- was proposed by my predecessors in the session of 1865. Well, I did Bay so. I may have expressed-a difference of opinion as between £240,000 and £280,000, but I said I believed that £240,000 could certainly be saved. • At th? time I made that statement I gave no promise—as it has been termed: no such promise was required.. I merely advanced an opinion, as any member might do; and I ask the meeting to mark the time when that statement was made in the House. It was in August, soon after the financial statement of the Colonial Treasurer, when Mr Eitzherbert proposed that £1,586,907 should be appropriated for the service of the year. I expressed that opinion before the complete estimates were brought down. Only the ordinary estimates were then laid on the table, the estimates of the extraordinary expenditure were not then in the possession of the House; but when they did come down, the gross amount asked for was less than had been originally proposed, making a total of £1.414,102. Before these estimates were voted Mr Weld’s government resigned, and I succeeded to the government, subject to no condition; pledged to nothing; but urged by many members to take office and carry on the government. This was on the 16th Oct., after nearly four months of the financial year had expired, leaving me only about eight months of the year in which to effect any saving. The session was far advanced, there was no time to frame new estimates, and I took those of my predecessors, and altered them in accordance with what I thought would suffice for the requirements of the year. I only asked for £1,158,183. which was a reduction of £255,919, as the estimates will show. I hold in my hand the estimates of Mr Weld’s and of my Government, and anyone can satisfy himself at this moment, and oaa refer to public documents for the figures. But beyond this there was an actual additional saving, as during the period £46,000 less wasspent than was estimated. I thus effected the saving indicated without having made any* promises at aIL (Hisses.) I hear some gentleman hissing. That implies, I presume, distrust of my statement; but here are the documents—let him come and examine them. He has an opportunity now of proving the accuracy or otherwiso of my statement, and it would be far more manly and honest to do that than, by hissing, to give me the lie, for that is the virtual meaning of such expression. (Applause.) A Voice : What about the stamp duty? Mr Stastobd : I will come to that presently. I come here to speak fully, and I am not going to let you off. .(Laughter.) As for the Stamp Duty, I told the electors of Nelson, when I last addressed them here, before the last general election, that it was exceedingly probable that I would propose a Stamp Duty and an Income Tax—that both would, in my opinion, be necessary, and no one took exception at the time. (Hear, hear, some interruption, and a hiss.) I beg that I may not be interrupted. If anyone wishes to speak, or to take exception to what I say, he will have an opportunity when lam done. (Hear, hear.) Any question that anyone may wish to put to me I shall be glad to reply to when I have concluded. (Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding that the Colonist thought it too late for me to refer to the “Public Debts Aot,” I mean to do it, and at somelength too, especially as I have - received from the' committee of the Financial Reform .League a list of queries, the first of which refers to that Act. As. that subject is the most important, and will take up, the’longest time, I staff postpone ity and-notice the others first. The Financial Reform League asks—

In the event of the moiety of the Consolidated Bevenue accruing to .a province ,(deductions mo/ia for General Govemndent departmental expenses), together with its ; territdrial revenue, being insuffi-meet-the charges bn its debts, oufrof what fund will the, deficiency he made good; and, in particular, will the Land Fund of the other provinces he: liable; under the thirteenth-clause of theEublio Debts Act?:- -t . : .- •

-—ln answer-to this, I have to say that tlie Land J’updrnf any -one province is pot Hakile for,.the/debts ofranother province. l By seotion 46 "of “ The.PubUo Revenues Act/’

it is enacted that when the-ordinary reveupe an y - province failsi to provide, other things, for .interests and sinking fuud v of, its debt, the. land revenue shall, be impounded to meet its liabilities But no law renders tlie Laud Fund of the other provinces, liable for such defaulting province. The next query is— What amount .of annual burden may fairly be expected to. fall on the taxpayers oh account of the engagements as to' pensions to whioh the Civil hervioe Act has committed the colony, and what additional liabilities would be incurred under this head; werq the Provincial establishments absorbed into the General Government service ? -

“It'is impossible to answer this question with precision. Indeed, any member of the League Committee would be able to answer it as well as I can, as the same sources of calculation are open to them as to me. The sum of £I,OOO was placed on the Estimates of the present year for pensions under the Civil Service List. In a few years it may amount to £3,000 or £4,000, or perhaps to £7,000 or £B,OOO a year ; I do not think it is likely to exceed that sum, as officers retire after sixty years of age, and as the number of officers is beiug reduced, the Dumber on the pension-list at. the same time is not likely to be very large. That is thy opinion ; but, as I' have said, any member of. the Reform Committee may answer the question for -himself. The next subject referred to on the committee’s list is one respecting annual loans:—

What probability exists of the cessation of the custom of contracting annual loans ?

—I think that question is not very credit- , able to the committee. A League started * with such pretensions, and whose objects were so large and important, might be presumed to have made itself acquainted with facts, and with what was the actual custom. There are no annual loans. The Loans contracted by the General Government are only three in number. One in 1 1856, for half-a-million, to meet old lia- ' bilities which existed when the Constitu-. 1 tion Act, came into, operation, and to raise < £IBO,OOO to extinguish the native title in the North Island, thereby, relieving the 1 land fund of the whole colony from the liability which the Constitution Act had 1 imposed, of being taken to purchase native 1 land. The next loan was in 1860, for i £150,000, to provide for the cost of the i Taranaki war. The last loan was in 1863, < for. £3,000,000, to meet the expenses in- i curred in the native war, which had been i entered into by Imperial offioers during ’ the recess, without the Colonial Legisla- : ture having been consulted, but the cost of which' ie'waacompelled to. provide for, owing .tatheJLarge engagements which the Legislature found, when it next met, had been entered into. Instead, therefore, of annual loans being the custom, but three —or at most four—if the £260,000 authorized, to enable the full amount of £3,000,000 to be received by the Treasury, is reckoned 1 as a separate loan—have been contracted by the General Government. The provincial loans are, nominally, twenty in number ; but one is merely a renewal of a former Wellington loan, so that nine provinces, in fourteen years, have contracted nineteen loans, or rather eighteen, inasmuch as one is of a special character, for the purchase of the Manawatu block, which ! land is.hypothecated to pay it off, and the loan is not a charge, on the general revenues. There are. thus eighteen loans divided amongst the provinces in-fourteen years, which does not show an annual custom of borrowing. In fact there have been but two loans since 1863, one being, as I : have already stated, merely a renewal of a former loan for the same amount, and the other the Nelson Waterworks Loan, to meet which special' rates are levied. In respect to the future, it is for Parliament to say what-, from time to time, shall be borrowed. At the present time there is a strong feeling against additional loans; and only the other day the present Government refused to advocate next session, a small l<J&n for Otago, which was asked for to make good the damage caused by the recent large floods ih that Province, which is considered the richest, and most important in New Zealand. (Hear,, Hear.) If at any time a. Province was,justified in effecting a loan, it would be when the roads and bridges to its agricultural districts had suffered from such a calamity as the recent flood; but the Government did not think fit to anticipate the action of. Parliament. - While refering to the questions of loans and finance.l may observe that while the Government receives a good deal of oensure for what are deemed its faults—often very unjustly—it, but rarely receives credit for anything .it maydo., The .present Government Haß voluntarily tied., its .hands in a way that no,other Government was. restricted, by the appointment of the Comptroller of the Revenue. ;By ,the institution, of, this office, the Government. positively, cannot Bpend a single shilling of the revenue without the sanction of the Comptroller, and'the public funds are thereby safely guarded from all misappropriation. Yet to this great fact in relation to the finances of. the polony I do not remember to have seen one solitary allusion made,in terms of praise, except.by.one of the Canterbury papers; although if this had heen law a few years. ago, it .would havei prevented the. spending of' a large: portion of the Three Million Loan, which was greatly misspent,'.anA’wquld consequently .have lessened f He. burdens! which we - now .bear. The nekt question asked by the. Committee • Is the revenue, .for, thecurrent financial year (now in its fourth quarter) likely to fell short of the requirements’Tor the same term; ifso. to.what extent; and,how is it .proposed to supply tbs defl■dency? '■ ...

—I am glad to be able to say that the revenue has hitherto been sufficient roS! our requirements. (Hear, hear.) Wh have, paid our way, and we have handed to the provinces what .is due to them; and although the Customs receipts will possibly Be from £60,000 to £BO,OOO under the estimated amount, yet the Government. has saved so much by economising within the estimates, that we hope to be able to meet all demands, while the requirements of public. service will be fully met. (Applause.) In tho event of deficiency, there is, by the Public Revenues Act, a permanent authority to raise a sum not exceeding £60,000, to meet sums appropriated by tho Ligislature; but no such power exists to raise monies for any expenditure not duly authorised by law. I now come to the most important question of the Committee, on a subject to which I bad intended to refer at some length, even if the Committee had not alluded to it, namely, tlie Public Debts Act:— Whether the assumption by the colony of the liability for the interest and principal of the provincial loans, conferring as it did an enhanced market value on these debentures, might not have been so carried out as to yield a corresronding pecuniary advantage to the colony or the provinces, rather than to the debenture-holders?

—Before I notice this question I may remark on certain inconsistencies on the part of those _who object to that Act, When the Province of Southland was unable to meet its engagements, the colony undertook its liabilities. The colony well understood that it dare not let its credit be injured by permitting Southland to be a defaulter. Southland owed between £400,000 and £500,000, and its principal creditors were two foreign banks, the Bank of New South Wales and the Bank of Otago. Well, Acts were passed by the General Assembly in 1865 and 1866, which pledged the colony to pay the debts of Southland. Tlie action taken by the General Government and Legislature, with respect to the debts of Southland, received a good deal of praise from some quartors, and no objections were made to it. “O, but,” said Mr Arthur Collins on a recent occasion, ' “that is a very different question, the cases are not analagous.” And he was right,the cases are not analagous; for while, in the case of the Southland debts, the colony undertook to pay the debt in full next December, in cash, with six per cent, interest, and as security impounded only the land Revenue of that province; in the case of the other provinces all thtft the colony has by the Public Debts Act, undertaken to do, is to guarantee that the interests of their debts shall be paid annually, and that the bonds, when they shall become due years after this, shall be taken up, and as security not only the land revenue, as in the case of Southland, but also the whole ordinary revenue of the provinces was made liable. The colony guaranteed that for every pound’s worth of debentures iasaed, twenty shillings should be paid when they become due, which will not happen, as to some of the debentures, for many years, in some cases upwards of thirty years. So far by way of comparison between the two transactions, which, although not dissimilar in spirit, have been very differently common- , ted on. In 1866, when Southland was in difficulty, every man ’in New Zealand knew perfectly well that the colony could not dare to allow the creditors of any province to suffer by its default. Neither honesty nor wisdom would have warranted such a proceeding; and honesty and wisdom can never be dissociated iu such a matter, if, indeed, they ever can be. (Hear, hear.) I will notice the objoctions that have been made to the action taken in the matter. Amongst others reference has 1 been made to the United States of America ; and the Mississippi and Pennsylva- 1 nian bonds have been instanced to show that New Zealand was not liable for the debts of its provinces. There could scarcely have been a more unhappy reference than to America, for if America bad not allowed Pennsylvania to repudiate, she would not recently have had to pay 36 per cent, premium for gold to carry on her war. (Hear, hear.) Nor would she have had to raise her-loans mainly within herself, but could have, gone into the money markets of the wtfrld. (Hear, hear.) But even if America had been a. successful example,. which it is not, the circumstances are quite different. It is not . the same ease at all. . The several States of the United States Republic are absolutely soveieign Slates, raising their own revenues, and regulating their own debts, with which Congress cannot interefere in the least degree,—it has no power to do so. The interest of the; debts of the individual States is not paid out of the revenue of the United States, but from the separate revenue of the, borowing . State itselfj over whioh revenue the Legislature of the United States has no control. Here, then, is the.key to the solution of the whole question. The individual .States of America are in matters, of .finance totally distinct sovereign powere, with separate legislatures and governments, and with distinct debts and revenues. In direct contradiction to the position of America, the revenue oi New Zealand as a Colony, and of the Provinces, is one and the some. The residuum of the revenue of the Colony, after defraying the charges imposed by the General Assembly, forms the revenue of the Provinces. So much is this the case that there is. nothing whatever to prevent ' the Assembly from appropriating,—and no : one can. say that/ it. may. not soon appro- [ priate,—the whole uf the ordinary revenue of the Colony colonial purposes.

from Sir D. Monro and amd a hiss.) And not only is tifo/gsytioi/ of the revenue which is given torae-Pro vinces subject by the Constitution Act to tne controll and appropriation of the General Asssembly, as being actually Colonial revenue; but in addition, every debt of the Provinces has been contracted with the consent and by the joint action of the Government of the Colony; and the signature of the Governor, given, with the advice of his Ministers, representing the General Assembly, to each Bill, whioh, authorised the debt being incurred. This fact alone made the Provincial debts in good faith the debts of the Colony. Every member of the Legislature knew that no loan of the Provinces could be raised without the concurrence and joint action of the General and .Provincial Governments.

Reference has also been made to Corporation debts, and it has been said the Imperial Parliament docs not guarantee these. Neither has the Colonial Parliament. Take the case of the Corporation of Dunedin, and other Corporations which have got deb f s which the Assembly has not guaranteed. Corp oration debts are charged on special local r jtes, not on the General revenues, which are not in the least liable for any of them. They are debts with wh'cli the General Government has nothing to do, and therefore it very wisely does not take cognizance of them. Then, again, I saw a letter lately from Mr Sewell, in which, amongst other things, he refers to the Bill for securing Provincial loans, brought into the House of liepreseutatives by the Government of which he was a member, and compares it with the Publio Debts Act of last session, as taking better security from the Provinces. But I am not aware that the security he proposed was better or very different from that whioh the Public Debts Act provides. He talks of Waste Lands and Railways ; and the Public Debts Act and the Public Revenues Act, taken together, although not mentioning Railways, pledge the whole ordinary and territorial revenue of each Province to meet its debts. I refer you to the 44tb and 46th sections of the Public Revenues Act. Nothing could be more carefully guarded than that the whole income of each Provinoe should be liable tor its debts. The Colony was a party to' the loans, and the Colony dare not refuse to guarantee them. When people in good faith purchased bonds which promised to pay 20s. iu the pound, the Colony was bound to guarantee that twenty shillings in the pound should be paid when due. There is not a man of fausiuess in thi« room who could' continue in business and retain his credit if he refused to take up his acceptance in fall, when that acceptance came to maturity, no matter how his signature may have been obtained, no matter how the money was appropriated; there is the document negotiated and due, and he would not dire to refuse payment; ha could not do it and remain in business. It has been advanced as a reason for not paying in full that some of the debentures were sold below par. Well, what then ? You promise to pay so much by a certain day, and if the discount is against you, if you pay a high rate for discounting jour paper, that does not lessen tho amount you have promised to pay when the bond foils due. (Hear, hear.) There has been a great deal said about the Bank of New Zealand, and the large profit which is supposed to have been made by that body. The truth is simply that the Bank of New Zealand held about one-tenth of the whole amount of the Provincial debentures. At the time of the passsing of the act the Bank held about £300,000 worth of Provincial debentures. The Bank had bought the whole of their debentures at par, arid resold a portion soon after at 103, long before the Publio Debts Act was passed. The iustanceof debentures purchased below par does not therefore apply to the position of the Bank of New Zealand in the matter. But it is said “How about the men who bought up debentures in tho London market at a long rate below par ?” The reply to that is—How can that affect the original acceptor who promised to pay 20s. in the pound. Even if you were to propose to pay” less than was promised, whet rule or machinery-have you got by whioh to fix a less price, and compel the bond-holder to accept it. Debentures go up and down like a pair of scales from below par to above it, and you have no fixed standard by which te determine even the aveiage price amongst repeated fluctuations, even if the original promise to pay 20s< in tho pound was in the least affeoted by these fluctuations, which it is not. (Hear, hear.) It has been said, in very strong language too, that “ the Colony might have saved £300,000 or. £26o,ooobut it has never been Bhown liow this ■ saving- could have been accomplished. Strong language has great attractions for some people, aud is often in fact made to stand in place of argument. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) It is very easy too, “ as easy as lying,” to use strong language and to call names. It is not always so easy to refrain from such language. (Hear, hear.) Ido not intend' to answer such language, beyond saying that those who use it might find it difficult to show how the saving they profess to think practicable could have been "made. Provincial debentures sold at all prices, ' from considerably below par to three or four per cent, above par. vfhen they asserted that £300,000 or so, might have been saved/it was a pity they did not’go much further and add; a few hundred thousands more. It would have been quite as easy and quite as capable of proof. Ia»

deed, it would have been, just as legal as equitable to. repudiate the wlible of the,, debts as'to say to 'our credtfSrs we shall; not pay 20j. in the : and just! as bone3t to, pass an act for that purpose! A. great deal of misoonceDtiogexists as to,the •.-apt,, . B ; /»;;perfectlv. vomutary oaf' both, sides' whether the P.roytndial sbbods’ are' exchanged- oroofc; it is perfectly .optional , at.thi9 moment for the General Government to refuse to exchange them. It is also perfectly optional to the agdtit of the Government who, has gone home to consolidate.the loans, to do so or not, and it is equally optional to the bondholder to exchange his Provincial bonds for those of the General Government. If no action takes place, if the bonds are not exchanged, the Colony is in exactly the same position as b- fore the act passed. Mr Lttckie : No.

Mr Staeeoed : I repeat that if no action takes place, the country is in precisely the same position as it was before the passing of the Act. MrLircKlE: No.

Mr Staeeoed : Mr Luckie will have an opportunity of showing, if he can, how it is not so. A,t all events, as yet no action has been taken ! hat we are as yot advised of; and before censuring the Government . f or what may take place, they ought to wait and see what action is taken, and then administer censure if it deserved censure. I have remarked that those who have upheld the course the Legislature took, with respect ito this question, have failed to explain it in any satisfactory , way. It has been argued as against the measure that because some of the bonds have been purchased under par, therefore we should not have undertaken to pay them in full when due. .But, if this argument were worth anything, why not apply the same rule to the . General Government loans. Bor; example, the million loan, which Mr .Wood-negotiated .in 1864; the first million of the three million loan was sold for £BIO,OOO, that is, the colony got only about £3l for every £IOO bond ; and the same bonds were afterwards sold by toe company which purchased them, at toe still lower rate of £7O per 100. Now, these bonds, which are 5 per cents, are now quoted at £99. If, therefore, it was not a proper thing to pay Provincial bonds in full because they sold below par, why bind ourselves to pay the General Government bonds in full ? (Hear, hear.) There was first.a million of five per cents sold at about £81; a half million of 6 per cents, from £9l to £95; and another half million at from £95 to £99: -and only the last half million sold recently of toe three million loan realised £lO4 to £lO6. Now, if to pay. 20s. in the pound is good with respect tq provincial stock it is equally good with respect to the. General Government stock. The fact is, the argument will not hold water. The' country cannot dishonor its promise to pay. The credit of the Colony is at stake, and any sacrifice of its honor now will tell severely in the future. A few years is as nothing in the life of a country. (Hear, hear, and applause.) We might say, no doubt we have done a very foolish thing in accepting the bill, and in incurring the debt (and 1 am happy to. say I had nothing to do with incurring it), but having accepted it we must take its consequences. And now that I have answered—and 1 hope satisfactorily— the questions of the Committee of the League, 1 should like to ask what- the League is going to do. I joined it with a great deal of pleasure, inasmuch as it was based on two fundamen tal principles with which I have always sympathised. The one, economy in the expenditure; and the other, a: change in the character of the taxation of the Colony. On these principles I have been acting while the Reform League has been talking (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Four members of the Committee have written four very interesting papers, wuich are extremely useful additions to the literature bearing on the question's which they discuss, and which I have perused with great interest. I will say. this of the Nelson Reform League, that while other similar Leagues have contented themselves with declaiming a little, some of the members of the NeLon League have evidently studied carefully the position of the important questions which the League seeks to deal with. But they have not done nearly enough. If think they have advanced beyond a snail's pace in reading papers they are greatly mistaken. Look at what was done by the Anti-corn-law League, how. they ■worked for. the object they sought to accomplish, and what strong, facts they brought to bear on.it (hear, hear), demonstrating them by careful and unceasing study and argument. If this League is to 'be anything more than a disappointment —I will not say sham, because I believe that many of its members are really ear* nestly striving to effect some good), but if it is to be any t hing more than a disappointment, it has got to do a great deal more than it has yet accomplished; it must do something practical; and ’(turning to the Chairman) I believe your Honor occupies the position, of President of the League, and you will therefore .excuse me, for apostrophising you (hear, hear, and laughter), andurgingon you thatafter all that has been talked of ‘ in connection with the League, something mprie definite must he : done. neit session of the Assembly is approachihg, and I hope to seesome advance made: by .the .League in toe.durebtion!of showing; bow.what they, desire ean.be &6~ complished. ; (Hear, hear.) I. have., said toat while the League /was-talking I .was acting ptt tbe two suiijects- which! form, the Jj* o 't hasis ;ot the .association,. viz., ion the changmg.of the iuodel of taxation; aiul-in /this statement - I r will now,shoW what has boeu done- in the ;way,of cutting

down departments. I have a return here, being a list of all the officers who have Censed to be in the employ of the General ,S|ovenimeit d uring the last two years ending the 30th June last. I took office on the, 16th October, 1865. Between the 30th June and the’26th October, four officers of Government had ceased’to be public servants ; and from the-last-mentioried date to June, 1887, 829 officers had departed from the public service. The names of the men are all given. A Voice How many new offices did you create?

Mr Staefoed: I only remember one—the office of Comptroller of Public Revenues—one of great value to the colony. When the Government reduced the departments, as it has done, yon will suppose it received hearty support, and that the reductions met with acclamation. By no means: the very reverse was the fact. In truth, the people of New Zealand don’t like any economy in the Government. (Hear, hear.) They write about it, and talk in favor of it, but they don’t like it when it takes place. (Hear, hear, laughter, and applause ) To begin with, there is scarcely a public officer who is removed from the public service who does not consider himself an injured man, and who consequently nourishes antagonistic feelings to the Go vernnient; and, if you reckon each man’s connections and personal friends, there will be from 3,000 to 4,000 people utterly disgusted with the economical action of the Government. (Hear, hear.) Of the officers whose services were dispensed with, some twenty were Resident Magistrates, and, with only two exceptions, the Government did not dispense with any 'of these Magistrates without receiving strong public petitions for their restoration and continuance in office. I miy mention one somewhat amusing occurrence in connection. with the subject. In one of the Northern provinces a Financial Reform League was established, and meetings .were held and speeches made, dwelling on the necessity for reduction in the number of the public officers, and especially Resident Magistrates, and the same mail which brought the account of the meeting con veyed to me an application on behalf of one of the principal speakers in favor of economy and retrenchment, for the appointment to the office of Resident Magistrate, vacant by the death of Major Speedy. (Laughter.) I was fortunately able to inform the applicant that the Government considered that the exigencies of the public service did not require the continuance of the office. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The truth is, the Government is thoroughly unpopular and abused because of its reduction in expenditure. If we discontinue a postal service which is not deemed net oessary, immediately a petition is got up to maintain it; if a salary is cut down, or an office discontinued, the action is com plained of and'stigmatised as cheeseparing. Reductions of all kinds are unpopular. People like a large Government expenditure ; so my advice is—Don’t abuse your Governments for extravagance; abuse yourselves. The laws of a country are no better than the people of the country who make them. (Hear, hear.) It is not only the General Governments which are pressed to spend. All the Governments, provincial as well as general, are so pressed. It is well known that supplementary estimates are required to be sent down because of the continual applications, beyond the sum proposed by the Government, for more money for his or that district which members represent. - It is not the Government, it is the people who are extravagant. Who forced on the Panama route ? The people of New Zealand themselves. (Cries of “ No, no.”) Yes, I repeat, the people of New Zealand; for Mr Whitaker’s Government strongly opposed Mr Ward’s scheme, and the people of Canterbury and Wellington got together and agitated the subject, and the Provincial Councils of those provinces undertook that if the General Government did not provide for the service, they would do so themselves. Nearly all the newspapers supported it; the Nelson Colonist being one of the very few exceptions which opposed the scheme throughout. The Nelson [Examiner, the Wellington papers, and those of other provinces, North and Sontb, advocated the service as an absolute necessity ; and it was not till the port of call was fixed at Wellington, that Auckland and Otago, which had hoped to be made the one the inward and the other the outward port, began to throw cold water on the proposaL Look at the files of the Nelson Examiner, and you will see how it advocated the scheme. People are fond of Government expenditure, and do not like to see it curtailed, although it is for the advantage of the country that it should be. (Hear, hear.): When I left the Government in 1861, there was one inter-colonial . and 1 one inter-provincial steamer a month 'subsidised for the conveyance of mails. ■ When T returned to office in 1865, 1 found three inter-colonial services and seven services between the provinces in each month. The first boat I struck off was the boat between Nelson and Sydney. The local newspapers, called out- at first about the-injury this was to Nelson, until, they founds what I expected would happen; that the-boat continued to run without any subsidy. : (Hear, hear.) I shortly after struck off three of the interprovinciall services. These reductions saved some.- £24,000. a.- year; - ‘There might be muoh more saved to the colony, if- the people.!would really assist in the effort of saving, -instead of opposing it. l ath not going to deny the i advantages ;of postal services,: or-'-.the,.'.Panama, service, i-'ov' the telegraph,-or the Cook titrait cable,’ because L think /hey; are., all very‘ good thuigs in their .way—greafradvanceson the progressive road;, of. civilisation'; ifi a position to afford them; It ’ iiiight, no

doubt, be a verygopd; thing,Jor a man about to set put <ra : ' a t 'jourhey,;to buy a horse, but if helias to borrow the money to pay for him, and borrow the. money to feed him, it may be‘fair 'better, if He performed the journey on foot. , (Hear, hear.) .The state of . the colony does, not warrant the expenditure of £6 much money for such purposes. We were pressed with the burden of a civil war, entered upon by the Imperial' authorities during the Parliamentary recess, when arrangements were made for establishing military settlers, some steamers bought, and others contracted for j and the Cook; Strait cable, the telegraph, and the. Panama service, were all entered upon at the worst time, as far as regards the financial ability of the colony to undertake suoh liabilities. (Hear, hear.) And now . people express . dissatisfaction with me because I mast find the money to pay for all this. There is no j ust reason for the dissatisfaction; for in addressing the people of this place, before the last election, I told you all what you had to expect—that there would most probably be more taxes required. . A Voice: What about the £210,000 saving ?

Mr Stafford : If the gentleman hsd been in the room, some time since, he would have learned that I had saved £255,000, instead of £210,000. I lately looked over my speeches made to the electors of Nelson since 1863, and I confess I was surprised .to find how very closely things have turned out as I anticipated. 1 shall read only one quotation from the speech delivered in January, 1866.

I am not going to tell you that we can meet our present liabilities 'Without additional burdens. The debts have for years been accumulating; and we must do something to meet them; and I think the honeslest course the colony can take is to meet its liabilities, by adding a little more to the amount of its taxation than even how exists. (Hear, hear.) The Customs tariff should ’be revised ; and, indeed, boforethe close of last session I proposed to revise it, but the members were so tired with the! long session that they refhsed to consider it. ,:The Customs-tariff should not, however. be revised with the view of increasing the total amount of duties received, but for the purpose of adjusting its pressure. Whether the duty is levied on a bale of silk, or a package of cotton, there ought to be no increase on the total Customs burdens. There is no doubt that the high duly on some articles, is fast demoralizing the people in several -parts of the colony. (Applause). But although I do hot think it would be wise to increase.the gross customs, I nevertheless do believe that it will be necessary to impose some other taxation next session. I know that in saying this I am laying myself open to encounter that, opposition which arises, not unnaturally, from a dislike to the more frequent visitation of the tax-gatherer. I cannot help that, and it would be wrong to conceal this opinion, although for a time it might make things “ more pleasant." But I shall" have nothing to do with a sham Government, which,, while getting deeper into difficulties, might- assume that things were better than they really were. If such a Government as that is wanted for New Zealand, then 1 can only say, I shall have nothing to do with it. (Cheers.) —I clearly indicated that there would be no reductions but rather an increase of the.burdens. there has been no actual increase, because, although the Stampduties have been imposed, there has been a corresponding reduction in the Customs revenue, which makes the total taxation much about the same. I then indicated that an Income Tax might be required. I always held that to be an absolutely fair tax— one of the fairest taxes in the world. While I hold this opinion, I am not opposed to a moderate revenue from Customs duties. There are two kinds of expenditure by the Government—one that may be taken as being for the preservation and protection of life, in which everyone, rich and poor alike, is interested, and the other for the protection of property in which only classes possessing property are more immediately interested, and which is properly met by an Income Tax. ] then deliberately—and 'with the intention that the country should have an opportunity of expressing its opinion on the. subject—spoke 'in • favor of ah Income Tax. I believed the opinions I expressed would have an effect on the speeches of candidates at the election then approaching. I narrowly watched How. the question was referred to, and its influence an the elections. How many successful candidates were returned who supported an Income Tax? Only one 1 And how- many New Zealand newspapers gave' a consistent support to the tax ? Only two, one of which was the Nelson Colonist. The others either vehemently opposed it altogether, or else, like the Nelson Examiner, damned it with faint'praise, -or threw cold water on it. But things are changing now, and many newspapers are perceiving that an Income Tax may not be a bad means of raising a j revenue; (Hear, hear). Many members of Assembly, who opposed it before, are now becoming favorable to it. There appears to be a strong revulsion of feeling, which is daily more and more in 1 favor of raising revenue by means of this tax, and 1 shall be much disappointed if the Government next session' does not see its way to pro-pose-such a measure. (Hear, hear). I think 1 have referred 1 to the greater part of those questions connected with the past, except the Local'Government Bill, whioh was ; thrown out.' It was curious to observe the grounds of oppsitioh to the* Hill. Some would not vote for : such a measure on any" accountj others thought it too as it had iso many clauses; and the! truth is, that many found- it too troublesometo-make 'themselves masters of these clauses; audthe aUeged diffusiveness of the bill was a very ready exouse. I know that many who then Voted against the bill would'hpw vote for itj but l qheation if they -will gefc;the chancbpf 'exactly such'’ another 1 bilL :' There wilt?"prpbabiy be one different indetailisinulariuprinciple.-: f T' bb'B'erve; that local Government has beenprdposeto’ be effeoted by means of /‘'skbletoh but : T->d6- ’not stand what is meant, by a skeleton bill, hhies&dfc' be£;bill:W^

exactly '-what has been the in Victoria and Canada on this, subject They had skeleton bills at firit, which were, found to bo unworkable, and after being amended, at various times, they were at last consolidated into one large measure, embodying about the same number of clauses as that which was introduced into the Assembly. Then there was the Municipal Corporations Bill which was passed, although objected to by some, but with fewer objections than were offered to the other bill* , I am happy to say that already six or seven corporations have petitioned to be brought under the Act, which i 9 in separate divisions, some of which I think might he beneficially, introduced into Nelson (Hear, hear, from Sir D. Monro); but .1 offer this simply as an opinion. With respect to next -session, the leading, questions will be finance, and local selfgovernment, both of which questions are of growing importance. As for supposing you can stop the demand for local self-go-vernment, you cannot do it. You might as well try, with Dame Partington, to keep out the'Atlantic with a £room. You in Nelson do not know the circumstances which affect and influence people of other provinces. Outside of Nelson, except the suburban districts, of Motueka and Wairaea—which are only suburbs after allthere are really no outlying districts, except the gold-fields ; and these are of such a special character, that they cannot be taken into account. Mark my words I If the table of the House of Representatives is not orowded with petitions in favor of local government next session, you may say that my political prophecies are not worth much. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) You cannot prevent the country districts from associating themselves for corporate purposes, any more than you can prevent towns from doing the same thing. I can see that, if the opposition in some quarters is not lessened—if no provision is made for local government when the provinces collapse—-as some of them mast do in a very short time; —in fact, I will not be surprised if the collapse came any day—then there will be no local go vernment at all in these provinces; no machinery except what the General Government may choose to send. This is not satisfactory. My idea, and that of my colleagues, has always been in favor of extending the principle of local self-govern-ment as fully as possible; and I may take creditto myself for having done something in this respect. The first Ministry of which I was a member localised the land revenue, and delegated to the provinces a very large administration. I shall continue to do what I* can to give towns and districts the opportunity of associating themselves for the purposes of local self-government. The other important question which will require to be considered is that of Finance, and that is one which will task to the uttermost the best powers of any Govern ment. I do not mean the present Government particularly, but any Government which may be in office for the next four or five years. The conduct of the finance of the. colony during that time will be attended with great difficulty. (Hear, hear.) I cannot, beyond indicating my opinion that an Income Tax bill may probably be in traduced next session, Bay anything more definite. I think that an Income Tax is admirably adapted for the Colony, particularly as it will reach the class of absentees, who derive large incomes from the Colony without bearing any of its burdens (Hear, bear.) I wish to state my opinion clearly on this point, because I am now speaking to New Zealand a 3 well as to my constituents of Nelson; and what I say here to-night will be read all over the Colony. (Hear, hear.) I should, therefore, wish to give the fullest explanation as to what next session the Ministry may propose to do in connection with such an important question ; and, if I could, would indicate precisely what might be the proposals of the Government for the next year. But there are always springing up various contingencies which, in a country circumstanced as this is, it is impossible to foresee; and as yet we do not know what may be the result of the negotiations of Mr Fitzherbert in London. We do not know whether these negotiations may be successful in whole, or in part, or not at all. (Hear, hear, 1 and a laugh) With respeot to the present position of some of the provinces which have been in difficulties, I am happy to say that they are npw showing- signs of improvement and reco very. (Hear, hear.) Southland is steadily improving, although making less noise than at one time, and Auckland is certainly rallying, and will soon get into that stage of steady progress which everyone wiil be glad to see taking place, and which the great natural resources of that part of the colony will ensure to it in future. (Hear, hear;)- Most fortunately it has happened forAuokland, as it frequently happens in other parts of New Zealand’ that when the gloomiest.prospects were presented, something occurs to improve its position. The discovery of a gold-field on the Thames has been successful in preventing that emigration' from the province of Auckland, which the comparatively prostrate condition of its commerce , would have rendered probable, and has found employment for those who could not -, have found it elsewhere in the • province. - (Hear, hear.) 1 accompanied the i Governor lately to the gold district of the Thames; arid I did not meet with a single 7 discontented person, except one. I ihet as i- wsilked along the beach more women and ohildren -than are uaually met in towna, 'and T.spoke to many peraons, ;asking :ho vr they were doingand with the siiigle exception alluded.to (and that man . admitted that he had : made 30s the previous week) , all saidthat they were doing; well, And; were, contented. (Applause.);.- The are : di|iappearingj and

giving place to^'substantial- houses ; and the diggers are daily sending for-their families. That gold-field has saved Auckland, by preventing the loss of its population—and population is the strength of a country. That country which has a progressive population is a country which will be prosperous— not, perhaps, as. compared from year to year, but in periods of fire or seven years. The advancing population of New Zealand justifies a confident hope in its future.’ New Zealand, although not progressing at the rapid rate it did some years ago, is still advancing. More lands are being fenced, new lands, are 'being broken up by the plough, industries of many kinds are and we may look forward with confidence .to a steadily improving future. In addition .to the measures I havo mentioned, there may be a few bills introduced for further consolidating our laws, similar in character to the important Acts which consolidated the Criminal Law last session. I have now to thank you for having heard me at such length so patiently, and also for many instances of your confidence, which I have ever highly appreciated ; and although I do not pretend to say that I have escaped censure, no person in a public career can hope to do so—yet I must say my long association with Nelson has, as a whole, been of a most pleasant character. I have been five times elected your representative, twice in my absence, without any election committee or any exertions except the spontaneous action of a few friends. Whatever may be my future po-„ sition, either in political or private life, here or elsewhere, I shall never forget my association for a long period with the people of Nelson, and I sincerely thank the electors for all the kindness- they have shown me. In concluding, I may observe that any Government of New Zealand ie entitled to forbearance from the public ; that a spirit of fair play would dictate that all the circumstances which affect its action should be carefully weighed before it is condemned. That it should be remembered that owing to the configuration of the colony, and the manner in which it has bran settled, the General Government has to deal with important questions requiring grave consideration, and affecting diverse* and. often contradictory interests, while it i 3 isolated from many centres of population. That from the absence of a common centre thore is no clear and unmistakeable expression of . public opinion on the part of the colony as a whole. That from the.same cause there is no colonial press, but merely local journals, whose, interests require that they Bhoiild chiefly treat of local questions, And but occasionally refer to those of colonial interest ; and when they do allude to general questions, they seldom—l say it with regret take the trouble to make themselves acquainted with the precise facts. It is easy to destroy the reputation of public men as individuals, or of a Government when referred to only with censure. If I were, asked to define the position of a Minister in New Zealand, I would reply—He must, as a rule, iso ate* himself from all his friends ; give up all supervision of his private aif iirs; sacrifice a considerable portion of his means, and possibly his health;' en-' counter hard work and constant care in the endeavor to preserve the unity of a country.' peopled by communities separated from, and regarding each other with feelings of selfish jealousy-;—each section in turn considering that it is debarred from some .'special advantages accorded to other places. And he must face this position with the knowledge that whatever he may do or not do, however he may study or toil,—he need expect no public support; that whatever good deeds may be done by him, or evil deeds prevented, will but rarely receive public recognition ; that, in short, he will, have no one certain source of consolation except the approval' of his' own conscience. (Applause.) ‘ Mr D. M. Litckie, who was warmly applauded, said: I know that I show great temerity in rising to address such a large and influential assemblage after a practised debater like Mr Stafford ; but I have come forward, partly because I took a great interest in the Financial Association reeen; ly formed, and its objects;' and partly because, on various, occasions, I have spoken strongly against - some ■ of the measures of the present Government, and particularly the Public Debts Bill j aridbecausel think Mr Stafford shouid have referred to some matters which he had dexterously omitted to notice. (Hear, hear.) ; The first matter to which I shall refer -is the interminable £240,000 or £300,000 saving; and I take this opportunity of speaking of it because, in the House of Representatives, Mr Stafford denied the accuracy of his own figures, as printed in the Colonist,'and stated that the Editor (that’s myself) had drawn erroV neous conclusions; or mixed "up* his own conclusions, with Mr Stafford’s figures, Mr Stafford : I never said anything of the kind. . • i . •

Mr Luckie : It was • so reported in the newspapers. . , r r.;

Mr Staffobd Ah 1 * that’s very likely. (Laughter.) ... ,; r - Mr Lucbxe : Very well ;it was so reported, I think, in. the Wellington Independent.or. Advertiser ; but since Mr Stafford denies it it does not much matter, —only as I have' the figures here,l shall read them : • ;

Savinaß on Chqric/ea on Annual Revenue—, . & r . Eieoutive J . .... . 2,30i' Legislative ; " . . . ?, , Begfetratton... ' ... ... . ~V,' .:800 Customs....: . •'... .■••••'*... .... " Postal.;. ... ... ’ '■■■' " v ,W‘ 8,360 . Internal'Defence •- ... ... • ... * > -77;800 * ' Native^.'-f ;v, ... ... > ...89,000; Geological.. ... ... ... 1,500 MiaeeUaneona.^:,... >:;Vna»portip»«i..v ; 4,000--

. These savihgis -would have>tocen added to the surplus~divided;aTnbngst the provinces. Sapingiijqn Chargeaan Loans — . •

Surveys ... In %y> Telegraphs, ..... ; ..... " ■ qg’^ Taranaki (Reinstatement) iX’om Government House and Domain (Lowryßayy.’. ... ... k MUII Miscellaneous

amount of future taxation of the people. 'Total-savings which might have heen effected’ S^^ hicll i WC)uld Btiu have left tlbie Government bsrfole^— Pl 7 providcd for than it had ever heen

Saving on Civil, list, say ’ 3 qoo Charges on Annual Revenue ... I4s’i2s Charges on Loan 146*391

’ r • . - • - L\ j 1 . finni CM • Say, in round numbers about, £300,000 off the SJffi 116 " Bnancial year ending Every ward and figure here is Mr Stafford’s . Pontains no single-conclusion of mine, . 18ni . PX -* d with no opinion of mine; i . . .froin . his own manuscript, given to me on the 22nd September. 1865 5?, hour before! left Wellington— (hear, Stafford)—and may be useful.tq refer to. Mr Stafford said nothing about the Native department, l and the hMvy pepses attending it. Here is what Stafford’s Native Minister, 'said-Th the Upper House some 16 months ago some cases Civil Commissioners with or .worsethan nothing to do, yet drawing l^« o oi? larie9 ’ a ~ d fora se allowances, and traveland;contingencies; having also also with good salaries JSwSf 8,8 ? &e. ’ I found also medical f h , ou ! d have Plenty to do, but did not traiihA Yi» t k aa anes ’ fora ge allowances, &c., travallin| allowance for medical comforts. Z?*. + ~ *5 ut L® Commissioners provided with nvfn Tiri w^tll two boatmen, each hoatwa£l27 2 v S * yeap 5 but the climax of abTI& when I came to-the native These I found ranged under the heads Ssessor3 - Heads of Runangas Wardens, Harerek, f whatever these mam bel Constables Whh r C Wopks ' ti Cangas! in Po Pensions it was not easy to sav immsmy cases tor what s’ervice they had bean granted.’ They ranged from £5 ayeaT to £2OO ■ and theyiamount on. the whole to £2,400 pe? annum But yet, in spite of this, we find by the apP r °P ria sf ns °f last session that Mr StafS9tnnn GoVerni ? en ? Bpend9 awards of *23,00aa-year ip the same department, of which £13,000 1B expended in salaries of officers, and ’£lo,ooo under the very con7®*“v nt rf ad ° f , ‘ e co »t“gencies.” (Hear, hear.). It would be useful to have -some of this.. Mr Stafford has, he the speeches he made : the last four years, and ; %ejath ? r,congralfculates himself on the accuracy of his predictions. No doubt during ‘somr^S^f 1 eloc t ue nce he noted ppints whichit wouid bemoreconveSk 1 ahall read one or two passages which struck me at the time they l Qd 1 wbich 1 have remem- ’ 18fi8 d ‘ Sr*?" laSt few da 7 8 - In Jan., Mr Stafford, who then did not lose °f sneering at Min a ers Pf eceded Mm and their doings, reto Bome remaps of Mr Sewell’s on : the Provincial apportionment of. the Cusl 0™? : rey onue, which Mr Stafford was t 0 8 j° W he w °nld secure to the <J£liu Ce r ar ?’ sareasti cally alluding to Mr Sewell s fondness for staking his repntaFaid ‘ “* sta^e “7 politi- : £f. against Mr Sewell’s that the . oyinceswin have their full three-eighths.” JLms statement was received with applause •\by, tire -meeting, and- what followed it ? • ’Y.ny. this followed it. A few months af - t<s , r f a.rds Mr -Jollie, then Colonial Treasurer, made his financial statement, and K this-was what he said with respect to the ' three-eighths of the Customs • Revenues \left after appropriations ] certainly fail to reach lhat proportion of the estimated revenue which it has hitherto been usual tp assign to provinces; but -the time appears to Ljave gone by; when the provinces can expect to ; receive from the. Colonial Revenues the same rate or contribution as heretofore. * * It is, 1 believe •ue longer possible for this or ' any. other - Governcontinue the old- arrangement- for subsi- « l ? s the Provinces .with three-eighths of the Customs. -.», * The country„caimot longer be expectelto make contributions in-aid of provih- - cial institutions on the scale it-has-hitherto been aeoustomedto do. . * I wonldstrongly recom- . , mend the provinces to rely more, upon themselves 1 a local revenues [and that,' interpo- . lated Mr Lnclae, means snore local taxes, or lade of . importantpuWcworks] , and.less.upon thefluctnc ; :ating aaid,precarious surplus which it .may be in the power of the General Government stUlto con'tlnue. .. • - . I

This is hpw.Mr Stafford kept his promise, • how. Bait seems to me, he lost the stake He played for (applause); because, although Mr; Jollie was sacrificed; that act and that proposal are as-much Mr Staf- 1 J fotd’s as are Mr Jollie’s, for the act . of onp Minister is the act of fEb Cabinet 1 7.f® ap: ). I have another quotation—- ; V ih J -fact, I wish t 6 give these rather than say 1 .?■ myself r - - Mr Stafford,- in 1863,. very vf'gerfonsfy' - warned- the.: electors of. Nelson againstpnmreasing our indebtedf- hesathat we'- had already been too iucau" tious- in that respect, Mr Stafford, said , theni’ aiid sidd well - and wisely las I thought ; 1 v Welhnifeof.debt .shoiddbe carefnUy guarded . . and that limit should be such that .in a period! of . v mqhetoty-panio or depressiph,' whiohiarises intall -sv oonntries ih itnriij ..the existing 'resources ..would . ,1 s rtways .provide for, the.,interest'of - the debt, t It 4?totAstfiftcrisiato dormant resouroountay would reputatioa for «iigoocbf!aith. > 'I IdOiUofc say.thatithis hmit has yet 'tt ! jheep reacliea Zealand ; but I do say, if the ..--iifiPlH I ®®: goesjon.increaidng its public debts at tbe - .. same rate as for the last two years, itwiil soon be ,'?ribpth reached ; ahd ‘ - r -. ; sound' reasoning, ■ and it-’is a t^iThbrei.iSfa reference; ,pfithe ■ .Pountay^^ah"' Exaggerated ; iii6tioh.-hf whieh mduce :|^meAbers Nelßon memberß top, to. adfarther debt, sound finanoiai. Stafford..' do ? ; - «on Loa» Act, one grand source of our fi-

nancial difficulties and the- cause of gross, was e. (Applause.) I came upon 1 tee' writings of an accomplished American writer on constitutional; law. and found a sound proposal, made,And.which was afterwards embodied' in the;constitution- of the state of Now York.' Thh was thatthe state should liave .no power to borrow money except to quell rebellion or for. defence without first appealing to. the people, makmg the question in point of fact, one for taking the sense of the electors on;• and settling by a '-yea” or “ nay ”i: of those really interested in the contraction, because so much interested in the payment of tt b j ß *T- f P ublic at large- (Hear, hear.) fr ac L, 18 °een the practice in this Colony the Three Million Loan would never have passed, and the Publio Debts Act would r T?r Te v£- oeil nec essary. (Applause.) As or Mr Ward's letter sent homo' on the authority of the Minister alone, and altering the share market as that letter tended to do, and did,—l contend that that letter n/ S unconstitutional, inasmuch as Jttr Stafford thereby assumed the functions 0 the Assembly, and took action in a mat•er greatly affecting the public welfare, ana which ought first to have received the tull sanction of the Parliament and tlie peatedly denied being actuated -by , any love of office, and I do not like to impute disagreeable motives, ; but what is it that' f 8 a^ ac k e d Mr Stafford so long to some or .his present coadjutors ? I remember reading, and was shocked in reading, it, that Mr J. C. Richmond, in the chagrin and exasperation of defeat and loss of of--o <a 80 ,^ ar f® r g°ti Parliamentary etiquette and ordinary .taste ,as by a coarse simile to speak of the anthropomorphous apes, and apply the comparison to Mr Stafford. Mr • iii^ 10Ild was £ °f comparing this mtelligent gentleman, this accomplished politician to—l am almost ashamed to say it a baboon. (Laughter.) One would have thought that it would not.-be easy for . any man, even in politics, to forget such a speech; but Mr Stafford forgot and for* S-V°r he acoepted him in his Ministry, and I marvel with what feelings each mast have regarded the other. (Hear,- hear : ) W as it love of office, or what, that brought this strange union about?, But, if this be a remarkable connection, viewed in a •personal light, what can he said of the polifci-. cal union of Mr Stafford and Mr Fitzlierbert ? Mp Stafford, in reading over his. speech in January, 1866, could not fail coming to this delicate little morsel respeeting the present Colonial Treasurer :

Mr Fitzherbert, although, a very clever and-well-educated mail, was no more fitted for the position of Treasurer of the Colony than the child horn yesterday, He made two Financial Statements, tout so utterly otoscure were they, that he spoke to almost empty benches,for noone couldunderstand.him. Almost all his figures were wrong, and m a subsequent statement, sent’down toy last mail, Mr Fitzherberc had omitted to rectify a gross error. . - .

(Applause and laughter.) This .was Mr Stafford’s decided opinion thon, but what happened very soon, after P Why, this political baby of one day old, this stout infant in long clothes, Mr Stafford, accepts as bis bosom friend, his companion in arms”— (loud applause and laughter) ; and not only does be make him Colonial Treasurer, for which office he was so espe* oially unfitted, bu* he also sends him home negotiate the financial arrangements, arising out of the most disastrous, as-it is t-.ie ip.ost infamous measure that has become law in New, Zealand (hear, hear},— a measure which was characterised by Dy Featherßton as a swindle • and • a fraudcharges which have never yet been .ari°r Buccessfull y repelled. (Applause) .Mr Stafford deprecates the use of strong language, and endeavors to weaken its effect by declaring that it is used for -lack of argument; but I repeat this'strong' language because I. think it properly characterises the act (applause), and notfor want of argument which I shall, presently produce. (Hear, hear.) Mr Stafford in his speech said that “if no action takes place under-the Publio Debts Act the country is, in .precisely the same position as it was before.the act was passed.” This I utterly deny. The country is irrevocably pledged/ (Applause.) Auckland Provincial debentures about a year ago .Were unsaleable at £7O, and since the passing of this Act .they have risen to £106.. Mr Stafford : I ain veiy glad that it is so. - - >

Mr Luckier Mr Stafford says he is very glad of this; and of course the credit of .the'Golony is good, but this only proves that it was good before, and what we have got. now, if we, have got anything, is a heavy loss. (Hear/ hear.) By the action already taken under the Publio Debts-Act, the Colony;- has been - totally- prevented from taking,’ advantage of the state of«the market, and.from making conversion of 'the debentures, , ,-unless at a loss. of;) in many cases, over thirty per cent.-to the countrv. (Applause.),., . - . . . Mr Sxatfobd : How loss ?....

;Mr Ltcokie ; !. really. never expected that I shoiild’come. up here;ahd ; be''asked to teach Mr Stafford - a lesson on the siia« plest principles .of. / political economy; (Laughter and applause.) I put it to any business hiaan Ah; this.' large -meeting if it does not Stand'to'common -sense and common practice, 'that if you wish to purcliase an, artiole.. which is . worth in the market had yet before purchasing!at the currSnt rate, you bind yourself to pay £!o6j do youmoti mako *a loss, of oyer 30 per cent, by the 1 transaction ? (Loud apl plause.) . This is-exaotly what was doneiby te®’Hublio Debts i ! Abt,fwhicb, by, unconditionaUyguaranteeinganadmittßdly inferior seourity, at once raised-it over : 3o per cent; iA':‘t 1%; marke.t; ■ : ;(Itenewed cheers.) / Mr Stafford made no mention (of ; remark-’ able rpiepe .rpf • ; ffinanoial admihistratiion, vfjlipb was altogether beyond the power of any ? Hoyernment rightly to attempt,. and

te AuckIpam.. Hrovinca on .his 'own -respbrikibility/ and without any appropriation or knowiedge on the part of the Assembly. (Applauße,) It strikes jrne/if ever theie was a “® f°l’ that officer whose "’duties -Mr StaTOra hasHeOhtred to be so ( important—the ,Qomptroll.br of Revonue—it r was when ,he made this uawarrantable misappropriafunds. (Hear.) Mr Stafford conveniently oinittihgnoficrof things of this kind;- also does hot fail to take all due credit for what hehas done,’and some-, Ion 8 1?™?’ .. ffpeexaffpip, the removal of officials dnrmg his first twenty months °® c ?> vvas made to appear as.if the army ot officials had been absolutely reduced by that number; =bb carefully! abstained from saying anything.about how many had been replaced hear)—and wo know very well that a considerable number of'these were simply changes of men, and riot abolition of offices. (Hear, hear.)’ There are other subjects I might refer to, but I do not care to, take up the time of the meeting any longer,, and ! thank’ you for the hearing y° a lla y e given me. (Applause.) ; Mr Stafford, in reply, said : lam very glad that Mr Luckie lias spoken, because it. enables me to refer to subjects which l,had thought did, not require Bpecial, reference ; particularly as T did not desire to occupy too much of the time of the' meeting. ' It' was not a very successful reference af Mi* Luckie’s—that to native expenditure." I quite agreed with .Colonel. Ruesell’s speech in 1866, the substance of which,'indeed, I knew befdre he delivered it; and I entirely approved of ail lie did. The native expenditure before that time had been very, great. At-one time had, reached to £63,000, a Tid, it has been cu£,. down by the .present Ministry to. £23,000, " as,'Mr Luckie states! or little’more than one : third of the previous expendituae. Mr Luckie" might have seen, had he read on ;in ithe!speech,, that. Colonel Russell had struck-off all these extravagant officials. . & Mr IiTTCEIE ; No.

Mr Stafford : Well, perhaps Mr Luckie knows < better than I do,' although I have read that speech more than once. (Laughter.) Mr Ldckie : . There is £13,000 for officials.to spend £IO,OOO on contingencies. Who gets that ? - :

Mr Stafford :. The natives . get' a -large pOrfcion of it; an<h after . the talk of equal rights for the natives, and the necessity of their being r equally treated, they have a right to be equally‘treated now. They pay a greater amount to the Customs-revenue than the whole of this sum together,, and they deserve some share of what they pay. (Applause.) The money gopa to pay native officials, such as those Kareres, of which Mr Imckie knows nothing,' but which he might have, seen .weie a kind of native policemen,; or messengers, who did, and do, very good service. Native assessors, also, are paid out of this fund. But great objections as he has taken to the expense of the native management, even Mr Buckie, with all his omniscience, cannot, hit. all the blots of the native department (hear, hear), nor those caused in other departments by? the peculiar position of the Government. There is no Government centre; a large portion of the Government is not under the personal supervision of Ministers, who are. under the,necessity of keeping up departments which , they never see. For example, there are nine or ten Registrars of Deeds instead of one in the colony.' We require more Judges than ‘would be necessary if , the colony were differently circumstanced geographically; and there aremany more.officials thSn would be required if our position were similar to that of Victoria; ‘for while Victoria has only three or "four; ports,, here in. New, Zealand we have between; twenty and,thirty. Vet for all that ,our Customs expenditure is under that of Victoria, fot while the Jabber coats about, six per cent', of-the revenue,' ours costs ionlyiabout^fivejpercept. 4 (Hear, hear.) And you cannot expect to have cheap*Go.vernment ?yhile ; . the peppde -themselves, both socially and politically, persist in a selfish indulgence in luxuries. (Hear, hear.; Forinstance, they must have posts, up every insignificant .valley, apdif they are shopped, people: compjgin-of.injustioe without, thinking pf what such -luxuries cost! Then we have a double' Government—a General and Provincial'‘Governments, with two sets> of officials,fiwo .Treasurers, and'other officers where one npght.do. , If you must have such, expensive, representative institutiphs—which are always more costly than autocratic ‘‘oneS—you;- must pay for them. (Hear, Mr Buckie takes exception loamy havingwritten- the,-letter to Mr pnd : yet that .very letter, stated the intention f of, the Government, giving that very .preliminary • announcement -of the proposed ineasure which Mr Buckie complained that ; Liliadinoi given by word of mouth: ,although, intadfiitipn.to that letter, in which r it, r vyas. stated..tliaifc .-.the Govern-' merit* intended to' -make the question a! was hlsb ' announced in the ; speeclr hf th A Governor. t My letter to Mr viWardiWajs .also- ..published ■ in; the ,pa«. persjlpclpding i thq Nelson s .Colonist itself, so that .Mr. LuokiqoDght not to have' been ighorant ? of'the' intentibk' bf' the Government; , ’? iJ (He'arjhear/aM ; “ Then ass regards thedehentures’of fchejpro.vinces; IjdonTt £7O for my hundred pound* 'acceptance; I have to yyhqm ; ifc‘hoffieii !! dued and; so 4 with 1 f the jmoVinibiaF-dkbeiitures :■ they had to /be s meVeither by the Provinces themselveaokthe; Colony..; (‘‘ Hear, hear,” from pSir.,l) i j£r' { , /'Mr ’Luokiereferredtpmy*statenienireßpe'ctmg theremoval stood, I conceive, whatT s said. --I ! said, ? l thipk /distinctly* that" 8&9 idfficersihad left sent, the in reply, I ..tHihki to' a '

offices I : jbad; created,; I saifi' that only ohe hacL.been,created, the Comptroller of Revenue.. These figures do: not exaotly repre.actual deduet Jon' of Government Among‘that number were about 200 native officials who have' not been replaced; It is perfectly true as Mr Luckie said, that the Provincial 'debentures were unsaleable in the market, except at a great sacrifice ;"and that they were quoted much higher, since the passing of the Public Debts Act; but what I hold is that the Colony has lost nothing by the' change, because it has brily to pay what it had been liable for. Aiid if the Provincial bonds Sell for a higher price in consequence of the passing of the act, so much the better for those-Provinces, as Hawk o’s Bay, Taranaki,' and Canterbury, which had, in round numbers, some half-million of debentures still to sell when the bill was passed. When I wrote to Mr Moorhouse and to Mr Ward, I knew that Canterbury waS iri a great difficulty from want of funds to carry on Ker works, owing to the inability a t the time to place her loans in the ' market ; and I have always thought the Canterbury loans were perfectly justifiable, owing to her means. Her bonds could not sell in the London market unless at a great sacrifice, and there was an absolute necessity that funds should be forthcoming for Canterbury, otherwise thousands of people would have been out of employment. I therefore wrote to Mr Ward, and, on the strenth of that letter, he succeeded in selling the bonds at a good price. Mr' Luckie : It was unconstitutional. .M? .Stafford : It was- doing the same thing that Mr Fox had dorie' in 1864, on the faith of which the Otago bonds were sold.

Mr Luckie : Two wrongs don’t make a right. It was assuming the action of Parliament, and was unconstitutional. :Mr Stafford : Unconstitutional! Mr Luckie said he did not come here to teach mealesaeti -to political economy ; perhaps ti e ..TLhl teach me a lesson in constitutionalism. (Hear, hear, laughter, and cheers.) A Minister may be said to have acted rashly in acting as I did, but I really do not see how it can be made out that I acted unconstitutionally. I think it was a bold, frank, and manly course: I said, we propose to ; do this; we go to Parliament on that principle, and we tell the people beforehand of our intentions., (Hear, hear.) I think I have answered all Mr Luckie’s points.

Mr Clements :Mr Fitzherbert. (Hear, hear.)

Mr Stafford : O, yes. Well, I did and dothink that Mr Fitzheibert’s statement in 1884 was a very great failure. He undertook, after a few hours’ study, to thake a.financial statement, and it was absolutely - unintelligible. I have often joked about it since. But from my subsequent experience of Mr Fitzherbert, I can assure you that he is not only, what he has long been considered, a most sagacious politician, but a very gdod financier, in the proper and higher sense of the ter.m, although perhaps he might not add up a column of figures so rapidly as a mere accountant might. In the science-of finance, the higher branch, he is highly accomplished; but he certainly did make a great mess of figures in 186-1. (Langhter). Mr Luckie, with ;• eference to what Mr Jollie said a - to the share of the Customs, was perfectly right in saying that foffthe action of one Minister the whole Ministry was responsible. The act' of on© is the act of the Cabinet. I have never attempted to refuse the onus of. any act of any colleagues. What I said as to daying the Provinces the three-eighth 3, had reference only to the year of 1835-66. Mr Jollie’s statement referred to the next year. He said he did not see his way to pay so, much to the Provinces next year ; neither did I. It was an honest statement, a! though the House chose to make a scapegoat of Mr Jollie, My remark in Jan., 1866, had reference only to that particular year. ' f

Mr Luckie : It was not understood so by the people. (Heart hear). Mr Stafford (to Mr Luckie) : How long co-uld I promise it ? You don’t suppose I mean it was to' go on for ever ? Mr Luckie : For. ever, is. rather a long term, but it was believed you meant much more than a year. (Hear, hear). Mr Stafford : I cannot pretend to be responsible for other people’s beliefs' ok; opinions-1 am only responsible formy own words. (Hear, hear, and laughter). Mr Akersten put a, question to Mr Stafford. He said: You say that you have done a. great deal for the Colony, will you tell us of any special good you have done for'this” Province of which you are the representative P

Mr Stafford : .I, never intended to give any special .-advantage to Nelson, because special advantages to one Province can only be given at the cost bf others. (Hear, 1 hear, and applause.) I am a. member of the Colonial Legislature,- and am opposed to giving special. advantages to any Province .at its neighbors’ expense. (Applause.) ‘ ' ,M. r . Akee'sten : As representative for tliia place to’which we elected you”to do US;.-some .good—you surely? would not over? Are you simply passive in matters, affecting Nelson ? - There was for example. the‘".lighthouse on thei Sandspit, ti a jspecial advantage tb the Colony at large/year might' have done -something in, advancing: that. BTow far is thatoff aud are we likely to get it ? • /Mr Stafford -. That lighthouse, is provided for; 'its expense being part of the £260;000 borrowed 5 under the : - Public Debts Act. "The plan has been; partly in preparation for two; years, and we were only/waiting for money. (Applause.) . - “La reply to another' question by! Mr

Mr Stafford said he had nothing to do with the' creation of the old Marine Board, but'had something to with knocking it onthe head. (Hear, hear.) Mr D. M'Q-re&or asked whether MrStafford was prepared to disband the standing army existing under the name of the Armed Constabulary, as it had-been shown in the House'of Representatives that Taranaki, the weakest province, 1 and largbly inhabited by natives, was. prepared to undertake its. own defence, and therefore they : were not required. (Hear,'hear.) Mr Stafford said he was not prepared to advise the disbanding at present of - the ' Armed Constabulary." Recent occurrences had shown that they could be very usefully employed.

Mr M'Gregoe : Because during the latewar with the natives part of their action” had been severely animadverted on by theBritish Government-; that they committed, atrocities in the taking of a pa, ' givieg no quarter, and mutilating some of the natives.

Mr Stafford : Mr M'Gregor. is wrong. In the first place, the Armed Constabulary has only been three or four mouther in existence, (laughter,) arid secondly, ; the. animadversions which he refers were'to.with respect to the Defence Forces, which have been since disbanded, who were falsely charged; and Lord Carnarvon afterwards apologized for his accusation, both in despatches, arid in his place in the House of Lords. (Hear; hear.) After a short pause, Mr Stafford' said': Ifthere are rio other questions to be put, I beg 'to express to you my thanks'for the patient hearing you have afforded to mylong speech. Let no elector thick’ I wish" to shirk any' question. If anyone at ariy tikrie' should like to enquire as to “any question;-let him write to me, and he will get an' answer. ' It' often happens that an erroneous opinion which may have been curreritj could be set right by ten minutes’ explanation, and. I' Bhall alvfays be glad to give such, or any 'other information. I can impart to the electors.' Mr Stafford then sat down amidst some applause arid disapprobation.. A vote of thanks, to the Chairman : concluded the proceedings,- which lasted nearly three hours; 1 ' \