Provincial Council.

Hawke's Bay Weekly Times, Volume 1, Issue 42, 14 October 1867, Page 252

Provincial Council.

FRIDAY, *th OCTOBER.

Council met at thrive p m.

Presont,-*-All; the members except, Mr 3tf‘Lean. , •*'/.. ■/*”' The minutes of the last meeting wore fjSsd and confirmed. TELEGRAPH STATION,

MrCARLYON moved, —

That this Council present a petition to the Colonial Secretary in favor of an electric telegraph /station being located at "Waipawa in preference to lyaipukurau. ! —He thought when the. choice was made it would have been far better to have taken the north side of the Waipawa river instead of the other. Mr WESTON seconded the motion.

Mr ORMOND sajd that if the number of the population was the rule by which they were to be guided, Waipawa certainly had the preference; but on the other hand it was very justly urged that the Waipawa. river was sometimes so flooded as to be impassable, whereas communication was pever cut off between Waipawa and Napier j and on that ground he thought it was better at Waipukurau, than where there was already regular communication. Major LAMBEIST said that although the majority of the population was at Waipawa, yet there was a large number of inhabitants on the other side of the river, and taking into consideration the fact of (the communication being so ofteu interrupted, he thought it best that the station should remain where it ..was originally intended to be. He did not say this for the gate of perpetrating a job for his district, as any member acting with that object would regret having done so, besides meeting with little -gratitude from those whom he had attempted to servo. Some further discussion ensued, when the motion was put, and decided in the affirmative. Major Lambert called for a division, which resulted thus : —Ayes, 14— Messrs. Rhodes, Ormond, Kennedy, Dolbel, Buchanan, Tjffen, Tanner, Carlyon, Sutton, Irvine, Weston, Parsons, Locke, Whitmore. Noes, 1 Major Lambert. Tfie motion was therefore affirmed. WANT OF CONFIDENCE. Mr BUCHANAN moved, — 1. That the open and unequivocal avowal of hostility to Provincial institutions uttered within the Chamber by the member for Porangahau, and tacitly assented to by the members for Clive and Napier, is held to be adverse to the true interests pf this Province, and, in consequence, deprives those gentlemen of that free and full confidence as members of the ExecnSje which they have hitherto pnjoyed.

2, That the Speaker forward a copy of this re. solution to his Honor the Superintendent immediately. be returns from Wellington,

sr=-He did not think the member for Porangahau would have any difficulty in interpreting the meaning of these resolutions. He was glad his Honor the Superintendent was absent, as it would he impossible to torture the words of the resolution into an expression of opinion against him. He had heard the member for Porangahau make use of expressions which, to sny the least of them, were not decent for a person occupying the posiliou he did in the Government of the Province. The hon. member had spoken of Provinces as being extravagant, and grossly illmanaged. It ill became the member for Porangahau to speak thus, when having for the last five years been at the head of the Executive he was more responsible than any other man in the Province. He considered it was absolutely wrong for any member of that Council, more particularly if a member of the G-overnment, to speak to the House disparagingly of the system under which he held his seat. Badly as this Province was conducted, it was. in a better position than it would be if handed over to the tender mercies of the General (government, to whom the settlers would have to go cringing and crawling for any thing they might require. The extravagance ot' Provincial Governments, about ■which the member for Porangahau had paid so much, was nothing to the extravagance of the General Government. He would refer to one item in their estimates, for a copy of which ha was indebted to that member. He found the sum of £IOO set down for a gentleman who sat in that Council, as military commander. The military strength of the Province consisted principally of 50 or 60 men, of whom lie (Mr B.) was captain, yet the cost to the Province was £I,OOO per annum for the gallant army .of Hawke’s Bay. However extravagant the member for Porangahau might have been in his management of tliaffairs of the Province, there hud never been so flagrant a case as this. This item Was not under the head of Hawke’s Bay. blit under miscellaneous or general expenditure. By these estimates he saw that Hawke’s Bay was taxed for General Government expenditure to the . sum of §os. per head;for every man, woman, and phild in the, Province. The member for Porangahau had said that when the Provincial system had come to an end, Hawke’s Bey would be divided into about three local Boards; these, at any rate, pould imt be conducted any cheaper, than the one Provincial Government. He did pot think it right that the expenditure, ol' the Province should be in the hands of

gentlemen holding- the opinions of the member, for Porangahau, as they might be the means of carrying their predictions jnto-effect. :: T.ieut.-Golonel WHITMORE said that beerf* alluded to in a personal manner - by the ; member for. the Country Districts, and he wished to make an explapation' of ,the 6ubject. ‘ He had acted in tbeoapapityof commandant for ay ear and aMtyithDUtremuneration,thoughduring

by the General Government to receive payment for his services. On the visit of Colonel Haultain to the Province he had also pressed him to accept payment, and, beingv joihed by Mr M'Lean, he (Col. W.) at last consented. He might state that the salary he received was the smallest paid to any military commandant in • the Colony, As for the rest of the staff, he considered it was insufficient and under paid. The General Government had a large property in arms in this Province, and needed a considerable staff to keep them in order. With regard to the motion, he considered the conduct of the mombei; for the Country Districts most inconsistent. He condemned the Government for not being responsible, and attacked them as if they were, carefully excepting the only responsible person, his Honor the Superintendent. He considered the resolution an outrageous one. It had been proved, beyond discussion, in the General Assembly, that £350,000 taxation for the support of Provincial Governments world be saved- when they were done away with. Taxation would then be direct, and fall upon property. The working classes were beginning to see this, and from ultra-pr6vincialist3 were now becoming strong centralists. He thought the member for Porangahau would have been more prudent had he not expressed so strong an opinion of the ultimate fate of the Province. He believed that Hawke’s , Bay would last as long as any of the other provinces. Auckland must soon come to an end as a Province, from sheer exhaustion of funds, and such would be the difference in the expenditure under the new system that instead of having, as at present, a deficiency of revenue to carryon the Goverement, she would have a surplus. This being the case, Hawke’s Bay, which was not in any such condition as Auckland, would have a very considerable surplus when the new system was adopted. He did not think the grounds were sufficient for the member for the Country Districts to put so contemptuous a motion on the notice paper.

Mr TANNER said that in seconding the motion he did not pledge himself to give it his support. He had been very sorry to see the sneering manner in which the member for Porangahau generally alluded to Provincial institutions. These remarks would have been bad enough from a private member, but they certainly did not sound well coming from the Go vernment bench. Whatever his private opinions might be, one who had voluntarily taken such a r-roroinent part under such institutions should not afford to sneer at them. In doing so he had laid himself open to a charge which he (Mr Tanner) had several times heard outside the House, and which he only brought forward to give that member a chance of refuting it. It was this, that having got what he could out of Provincial institutions, he would not be sorry to see them upset, er even to give them a parting, kick. He thought it was but fair that having heard such an opinion, he should give the hon. member a chance of refuting it, though he could not be surprised that such an opinion had been expressed. The Executive had stated that they were responsible, the Superintendent having endorsed their acts to the fullest extent. Last session, when a motion which they took to be a vote of want of confidence was passed, they threatened to resign their seats if it was not rescinded. This being -the case, should this motion be passed, they were bound by self respect,—or, to use the words of the Government, “if they had the spirit of a mouse,” —to resign. He did not think, however, that it would come to this issue.

Mr ORMOND said that for whatever blame attached to him for the opinions he had expressed, he alone was responsible. To say that his colleagues in the Executive, who had not expressed any opinion on the subject, were equally blameable, was indeed a monstrous proposition. He considered be had a perfect right to express the opinions he had, and if the Council wished to censure him for them, they should not have included other gentlemen in their resolution. He saw in the resolution of the member for the Country Districts that be was now deprived of the full and free confidence ” of the Council He was surprised at this, as lie had hitherto been unaware that lie possessed that gentleman’s “free , and full confidence.” Not content to confine himself to the words he (Mr Ormond) had used, the member had dragged in the question of provincialism against centralism. If the words he had used were considered by the Council unbecoming, let them pass a vote of censure. As fur his office, he was sick and tired of it, and would be rather glad to be relieved of it. The hon. member had applied the words which he considered were not decent— “ gross mismanagement and extravagance”—to the Province of Hawke’s Bay'. He (Mr Ormond) did not think any member of the Council would think him such a donkey as to believe that he hud applied these terms to .the .management and expenditure of this Province, over which he had had the principal control for the last five years. 'No man would condemn himself in such a manner. The opinions on provincialism which, he had. expressed were not new, and he had never concealed them. He had long bo.en"looking forward to the time when.provincialism should be swept away, and he believed that, as he had said, —that it was on its last legs; and that two years would see the end of it. . Hp was not, however, such an utter, booby as to - accuse ,himself of being ;guilty of ajl the r evils of provincial mismanagement. The member for Te Aute had. said, that people had charged him with .making what Ue pf freyinciaUsw* mi Up k»t»w

that people had said he had been working jfoir a road to bis own door. If this was the case, he certainly had not got it yet. There was a very good road to Waipawa, principally through his exertions, and this was the only advantage he had taken of his position. When he first sat in that Council, with his brother runholders, they had the power of doing almost as they chose. They did nob use this power for their personal benefit. They passed a series of resolutions tying up the Provincial Estate for the good of the Province in future years. These resolutions were not sanc-tioned-—it would have been better for the Prevince now if they had been—but the Superintendent at that time—Mr Fitz Gerald —was extravagant, and wanted the revenue of the Province in his own hands.- ’ With regard to the extravagance of the General Government, he would quote a few of the items relative’to this Province from the estimates. Provincial charges, £6482; Sub-Treasury, £150; stamps, £125 ; electoral, £75; Resident Magistrates* Courts,-1070; District Courts, £150; Superintendent’s contingencies, £135; Registrar of Deeds, £350; postal, £lBlB ; customs, £1260; militia and volunteers, £1349. Some member had said that they were going back to the old state of things, when Wellington absorbed the revenues of Hawke’s Bay; but in these days of increased communication and the telegraph such a thing could never occur. In conclusion, he would say that he gloried iu the opinions he had expressed, and called upon any gentleman who disagreed with him to vote for the resolution. Mr CARLYON said, that he did not think the mere expression of opinion of the member for Porangahau warranted a resolution of this nature being brought against him. It was only when a Government brought in measures which were opposed to the wishes and did not meet the wants of the community—such, for instance, as a Maine Liquor Law. He trusted the member for the Country Districts would not press his motion. Mr RHODES said that Carlyle had spoken of “ Parliamentary bagpipes.” They had heard several tunes played on that instrument that day, but with very little apparent result. He (Mr Rhodes) was opposed to provincialism. He had supported it at the time of separation simply to prevent the land revenue from being spent elsewhere. He should not allow the resolutions to be withdrawn, but would press them to a division, to show who were the friends of the Government, and who were their enemies.

Major LAMBERT said that members had lost sight of the original motion, and gone into the question of Provincialism against Centralism. He had known the opinions of the member for Porangahau on this subject for the last five or six years. He (Major Lambert) was one of the illustrious six who voted against Provincialism, though since that time he had seen mail) advantages derived from it. He considered that the Executive might be reconstructed with advantage to ihe Council; there had been something Tery offensive in the man,uer of some of the lion, members at times. He would instance the remark about “ Parliamentary bagpipes,”—the gentleman who mads that remark looking at the time at the member for the Country Districts. Such remarks were exceedingly unpleasant and uncalled for ; he really thought some members did not know when they were offensive. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) With regard to the remark about “ cringing and crawling,” he did not think the people of Hawke’s Bay would do it —they would rather climb. As to Responsible Government, they had been told that the Executive had no responsibility, and that the Council had no control over them, or no remedy, except by removing the Superintendent, wnich they might not wish to do. Li' the Council had no more power or con; trol than this they might almost as well go home at once. It was better even to pay for a Responsible Government than to be in that position. He had been glad to hear the explanation of the member for Pora ngahau; he considered that the position of that gentleman was indeed a proud one, and that the remarks of the member for L'o Aute were quite uncalled for.

Mr BUCHANAN said he had not made a personal attack on the member for Wairoa, as that gentleman had assumed. He had carefully avoided all offensive or personal remarks, and had merely exercised his privilege of commenting on him as a government officer. He wouldoongratulate that geutlemun on the happy times which he foresaw, when taxes to the amount of £os-’,OOO were to be taken off the bread and cheese of the working man; but he had yet to learn how this was to be accomplished, He considered it very problematical whether taxation would ever be reduced Dy the General Government ia New Zealand ; certainly it would not be attempted for many years.- So far as regarded the cheapness of go vernment under a nominated Superintendent instead of an elected one, he would refer to one item in the General Governipent estimates. That was—- “ Clerks fur General Government agent, £450.”; There was nothing to parallel this in the Provincial Governinentexpenditure. With regard to cheapness, it was the same with , all Governments. They would all, when iu power, exercise their patronage and be extravagant, and it was the universal endeavor, of those out of power to check file Government expenditure, and keep it as low as possible. He admired the chivalry of the member for Porangahau in taking the. biatne, if Warn© there was, entirely on his own shouldera, and throwing the ajgis of his protection, oyer bjs colleagues. , He had past services. to refer to, which--- V V ; 7 ' ’ - ; i Mr |IHOX)ES ssid thatihe ipember for jfapwir (Mv Kemtedy) ajid fcwweif :

prepared to accept a full share of responsibility for-the opinions of the member for Porangalian. Mr BUCHANAN continued. The member for Porangahau could refer to past services, which the others could not. Mr RHODES : Yes they could.

Mr BUCHANAN was not surprised at these interruptions from the member for Clive—the same gentleman who had called him the “Parliamentary bagpipes.” He would quote a Latin proverb bearing upon the subject —“ex quovis ligno no fit mercurius”—which he would render in the vernacular for the benefit of the hon. member —“You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.” The member for Porangahau had professed to be glad and surprised that he had hitherto enjoyed his (Mr Buchanan’s confidence; he had turned the meaning adroitly, but he must remember that that was not intended altogether as the private opinion of the mover, but as that of the Council in general. They had heard a good deal of three Road Boards insteid of the Provincial Council, but he would ask, what was the Provincial Council more than a Road Board ? Their acts were generally disallowed, and those that remained reflected ho oredit on them as legislators. They did nothing beyond voting estimates and carrying out the roads, and certainly one Board of this description was better than three. Again, as to these new institutions, they were permissive, not compulsory. Neither General or Provincial Governments had any power to force them on the publio,—the people must ask for them before they could come into force. He (Mr Buchanan) might possibly have modified or withdrawn his resolution, but the member for Clive had challenged him openly to a division, and as it. was a pity to disappoint his pugnacity,, it should go to a division.

The motion was lost on tue following division. Ayes, 2—Messrs Buchanan and Weston. Noes, 14—Messrs Rhodes, Ormond, Kennedy, Lambert, Carlyon, Parsons, Dolbel, Whitmore, Wood, Tanner, Locke, Sutton, Tiffen, Irvine.

PAPERS. Mr ORMOND laid on the table a statement of outstanding Provincial liabilities, and other financial papers. PETITION. Mr WOOD presented a petition from James Ashton complaining that his paddock had been for some months used as a public road, and praying for consideration of bis case. Read and received.

The Council then (5*50) on the motion of Mr Wood, adjourned till Seven o’clock.

The Council met again at 7T5, TOLLGATES.

Mr WOOD moved—

That in the opinion of this Council the principle of levying money for the maintenace of trunk roads by means of tailgates should not be confined to the vicinity of Napier and Meanee, but that tailgates should also be established at intervals on the made roads of the interior,—say at the junction of the Middle and Te Aute roads, Paki Paid, l’e Aute, Waipawa, and Eperaima.

—He did not object to the principle of taxation to keep roads in repair and therefore he had voted for the bill, qualified by the resolution of the member for the Country District. What he objected to was unequal taxation, and it was perfectly moustrous that a resident in Napier, such as himself driving out of town every day for the benefit of. his health should have to pay each day, after driving over three miles of shingle beach the same as a traveller from Waipawa, who had passed over forty miles of a well-made road. It amounted, in the case of such a person as he had mentioned, to a yearly tax of £lB 15s This motion was based upon the principle of fair policy, he had no wish to open the details ; he hoped the Government would give it no opposition, and he particularly calculated upon the support of the member of the Executive who represented the town of Napier. Mr WESTON, though he approved of the principle of tolls, would not support the motion: Tollgates in the districts proposed would not be profitable. The effect of. the motion would be to, create bitter feeling between the town and country.

Col. WHITMORE said the proposition was seasonable, and be should support it, provided the words “ as soon as they can be iet so as to produce revenue,” were added. He hoped that ho country member would object to the motion. One payment of toll should clear the other gates for 4S hours. Mr CARLYON considered the principle of the resolution good, but he would not support it. He considered that if those who sought health and exercise and would find a ride or drive of three miles, a-half from the town sufficient. They might ride exactly up to the tollgate and turn back if they chose. . Mr TANNER did not think the motton would act. He hoped it woulu be shelved.

Mr ORMOND said that he should oppose the resolution of the member for the Country Districts standing part of the Bill in Committee, and Would do his best to bring the money derived;from the toll.into the po veer' of the Council.' \" He did not think that the course laid' down in the motion before the Ho would, be a source of revenue. Five additional toll-bars would have to be established at a cost of £2OO each,, and! possibly there might be £4OO derived from them oyer and .above the cost of their oreation; . It was hot, worth while to lay such a.Hhavy tax'on the people for so Blight V return, ' 'The motion by the member for the Country Districts was contrary to’justice,; and itwbuld rpsoiadpd in\ ‘ • .

Mr TIFFEN should oppose, the tion, because he believed it wpdld not pay. With regard to the resolution- respecting the,, disposal of the money, that was set-. tied, and the remark of. the member for Porangahau was out of place. Mr KENNEDY would oppose thp motion, because it would not pay'. There ■was some injustice involved in .having the toll-gate so near the town, but all taxes pressed unjustly on some persons. Major LAMBERT thought r the best argument he had heard against the resolution was that it would not pay. He considered the motion unfair, and thought it had been brought forward in a kind of pet; He should vote against it.

Mr RHODES said that the principle of the motion waß sound, but he did not believe that it would pay for a considerable time. The time might come when he should support a similar resolution, but he could not do so at present. * Mr LOCKE would not support the motion, as he did not believe it would pay. Mr IRVINE would support the motion. Toll-gates were obsolete in England, and be considered the Bill an unjust one. Mr BUCHANAN had given the Bill his uncompromising opposition. - He thought it would have been better for the member for Havelock to have voted with him against the Bill instead of attempting to cast the same burden upon others. He (Mr Buchanan) would be consistent, and vote against the resolution. Mr WOOD said he had not brought the motion forward in a pet. He had voted for the Bill under certain restrictions, and did not see any inconsistency in extending the principle. To meet the objection that it would not pay, he asked leave to add the words, “so soon as they or any of them are capable of contributing towards revenue ; the lessee paying all expenses, and the same being advertised twice a year.” The Government members objecting to the addition, Mr Wood asked the leave of the Council to withdraw his motion, which was granted, and motion withdrawn accordingly.

SLAUGHTER-HOUSE BILL. On the motion of Mr ORMOND the consideration of this Bill was deferred till next sitting day. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. . Mr ORMOND moved that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, and proceeded with his financial statement. Major Lambert objected that the estimates were uot before the members, and this objection was borne out by Mr Buchanan. Mr Ormoud contended that it was not regular to place the estimates in the hands of members before the statement was made, and proceeded with his statement. Mr Buchanan again objected that it was irregular to make the financial statement with the Speaker in the chair; it should be done in Committee of Supply.. Mr Ormoud said that the last financial statement in the General Assembly was made with the Speaker in the chair, and referred to the member for Wairoa, who corroborated hia statement. He then re-commenced, when Mr Buchanan produced the authorised reports of the General Assembly, and read an extract, showingthat the financial statement had been made with the Chairman of Committees in the chair. Mr Ormond and Col. Whitmore said they were strongly under the impression that the statement was made before the Speaker, the former gentleman suggesting that there was possibly a misprint iu the debates. It being 10 p.m. the adjournment of the Council was moved by Mr Weston, and it adjourned accordingly till Tuesday.

TUESDAY, Bth OCTOBER. The Speaker took the chair at 3 o’clock. Present. —All the members except Mr M'Lean. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. PAPERS.

Mr ORMOND laid on the table several financial papers.

HORSE NUISANCE.

Lieut. Col. "WHITMORE moved— For leave to bring in a bill to abate the horse nuisance. —The object of this motion was to intro duce a bill preventing people from suffering from the nuisance of loose horses straying over their property —the animals in many cases not being worth the pound fees. Air TIFFEN seconded the motion Leave was granted, bill brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be printed. ROAD THROUGH THE 70-MILE BUSH. Major LAMBERT moved— . That the Government be requested to lay on the table a copy of the map of the road through the 70-Mile Bush, made by the surveyor in cutting that road. —He wished the plan of the road to be laid on the table for the'information of the Council, as he considered the sum paid for laying out the road, £240 10s., rather large. Mr TIFFEN seconded the motion

Mr ORMOND said that the road had been laid out by Mr M. Fitzgerald; and that ho plan had been furnished to the Government by that gentleman, as it bad not been specified in' the contract. \ He. (Mr Ormond) laidareturn upon the table showing the amounts voted by the Council for the whole; service; The survey of the line had been charged against the road. Mr BUCHANAN said that-he had ga-thered-from the remarks- of the member for Porangahau/that this payment had' been, made- for merely marking ' out the line, and that neither plan nor field-notes were:in existence. ; £Mr Ojbmomd:T did' not mention' field-notes.]} .Any pierson-ia"’ a Survey Office could construct a plan from field-notes, but he, did not bee why * professional mofi- akohld.Cbe employed id

doworkwhichalmost any one. could . do. It appearedito him , that they liad.paid professional price, and had' hot bbtdmed" profession bl services]• I"> j < 1' .'id—-Juf- - v i -’J

r ! ; Mr TIF-FEN’ 1 considered ,fchat wale rather a large sum to 'pay foV laying <>ut ! a 'road Without either a plan nri field.notes. It: was paying ,at. the } rate of £lO per mile for work whieh, a laborer‘would l d6'kt 10k a-day. ' ; It .Bhbwed a tfemendous laxity in the, terms of. the contract, for Mir Eitzgerald.was as competent a man as any 'in'fhe Prtfrihceu "" Ti - ' - ' ' ■>. \ Colonel WHITMORE knew nothing of . the merits of the surrey, but had heard from a gentleman who 'had' 'recently'tra- ; veiled, overthat road, that on lea ting, the Wellington Province and entering Hawke’s '-Bay < amarked improvement in the' road was visiblethat, the • Hawke’s Bay road was a good one, and far superior to the Wellington part. “ 'Major,{LAMBERT had. heard from a gentleman . of. undoubted ability, and in whom he'had the greatest confidence, thait the road was very bad; that bridges had actually been made of cabbage trees, and gullies filled up with branches : of trees, ' which had become rotten, and into which

A horse would sink in such a manner as to render it very difficult to extricate him. The gentleman to whom hdreferred, Mr Judge Ward, had been three-quarters of an hour in getting his horse across dried t -these gullies. - Mr ORMOND said the member for Waipukurau had forgotten tliat the gentlo- ' man to whom he referred had lost his way, : -which had been the cause of all the, misfortunes he had so graphically described. Major LAM B ERT said it was on a for-

mer ■ occasion that the gentleman referred -to lost his way. He described the road as becoming rapidly worse as soon as he had .crossed, the frontier of the Wellington Province, and arrived in 'Hawke’s Bay. .The road was not properly cleared, merely the underwood was cut away, for all trees .above eighteen inches iri circumference were left standing. ■ - Mr ORMOND : Diameter.. Major LAMBERT said he was still under the' impression that it was circum ference. He should-much like, a .copy of the contract to be laid on the table. The expenditure was an excessive one for marking out-25 miles of road, and the contractors did not even follow it. One of them told him that they did not follow the line marked out, as they had found a better one themselves. He believed that this road, on which the extravagant sum of £2,758 15s. 10d. had been spent, would have been done better for any private individual,for £I,OOO. This was one-of those matters which required looking afrer. [Mr Buchanan : Too' late.j The worst of this expensive sort of Government was that there was no prospect of it.,being any better in future. In considering the Estimates they must try to tyke some measures

to prevent the Government' misappropriating the money voted for their use. Tne Council must hold the purse strings a little tighter in future. Erom the returns ■ which hid been laid on the table he found that the original grant for the road, voted •during the financial year 1865-66, was £1,500. This was exceeded by £605. The Council next year voted another £6O. He " had no doubt things would be managed the same way next year as they had been for the last two or three years : The Government would bring down the Esti mates at the last moment, rush over them, .and get them passed. At the end of the year the Council would be asked to indein- . nify them for a large over-expenditure, and it would be done; they would get all they _ask for. [Hear, bear.j It was perfectly diddling the Council, Nobody in Hawke’s Bay, looking at the manner in which the finance of the Province was conducted, could fail to be disgusted by it. ■ ‘ LAND GRANTS. Major LAMBERT moved— That His Honor the Superintendent state to the Council if the Provincial Government are in pos.session of any information relative to several persons to whom laud was granted by “ The Auckland Waste Lands Act,” nnder clause 79, having forfeited their lands through' non-compliance with that Act. —He applied for leave to withdraw this motion, as the-matter was one that, could only be settled by the Supreme Court..: Leave being , granted,, the motion was withdrawn. J ' . ■ -SLAUGHTERHOUSE BILL. Mr ORMOND moved—> That the Council go into committe on the Bill. —The principal object of this Act was to regulate the slaughtering of cattle. It was provided that there should be a general .slaughter-house, under the. control of , an Inspector, for a certain district, and it also .contained regulations for fees,'&c.' ' : Mr TIFFEN seconded the - The Act might tend in some measure to-pre-vent*. the mysterious disappearance of .cattle' tliat had been so much complained .of by. stock owners. Mr CARLYON said that the title of the bill showed him 'at once a great fault in its construction:* - It was not complete in itself,.but was an attempt , to patch up'aii older ordinance, : to, which .it referred. Such Acts as this required'a great mass of ' papers to be. kept, which were- generally very difficult of access, ! and no advantage : Wasigained byihe system. In many cases . * the;; original Act* was out of print, and could not be bbtained for love or money ; .while iii others it'was only to be'obtained * bound up in a very expensive ' volume. VTHeAct -should be entirely: a- lie,w .one, ■ containing iheclaijses which it was wished . ;*to .retainin,.the. old one. Tit. was this System‘of, patching and* amending thftf.. reiideted Provincial Act? a mms of :en* -'r^fuflehienj/, 5 ’-.-V a -iv

~/Major. LAMBJJRT said* ~hb' believed there,were offiy'fwo "copies of the original Act'inThb*Province. -ri-yri: •[ ■ Mr BFiCHANAjN said he did not'find provision for-defraying, the cost' of these slaughter-houses.' The bill^was 1 for 1 the'benefit ;of a comparative few.• ; - Air TANNER said it, would be quite impossible for’ the* majority of persons.interested.' to’, refer.; ■ back; to the Act referred to. , He, would suggest .to the member for Porangahau that he should -withdraw the Act, and’substitute. a complete, one, with the clauses referred to printed in full. Mr WOOD said that/ 1 with reference to the remarks of the- member for Te Aute, be considered that the Act was for the benefit of the corfimunity at largein a sanitary'point of view.At all events, the agitation, for such an Act had commenced on sanitary grounds.'' , ; * Mr-ORMOND said that the bill would have been drawn up- as recommended but for, the fact that if “this was the case it would certainly be • disallowed. With, the present Colonial Secretary, Provincial bills had a very slender chance, and they had been several times condemned for: reenacting clauses of old acts instead, of- referring to them. Witli respect to the expense, it had been estimoted that it; would cost £220, and would' return in a.year.in feesj £250.

The Bill" was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Wednesday. ‘ ’ 1 ' " ’ '

SUPPLY. The Council then went into Committee of Supply, and after considerable discussion in. reference to points of order, Mr ORMOND made his financial statement.

. Progress was reported at 6T5 p.m., and the Council adjourned till 7 o’clock.

The Chairman took his seat at 7 o’clock, pursuant to adjournment. There was no quorum till 7’20, but the Chairman was unable to- report progress in the absence of the Speaker, who did riot arrive till 7*30.

The CHAIRMAN said that ail the members knew that the committee had been adjourned till 7 o’clock At 7 o’clock he took his seat, and up to 7*20 only four members had arrived. In the absence of a quorum he would have adjourned the committee, but iu the absence of the Speaker he'was unable'to do so. .He con sidered that the < -ouncil had not treated the Chairman of Committees with the respect which wa9 his due, and, in future, when a committee was adjourned to a particular hour, he should take his seat punctually at the time named, and if in five minutes there was not a quorum, he should leave the chair and should not again resume it. There was great laxity of discipline in the Council, and he was sorry to say that on this occasion it reflected more particularly on the member for Hampden, the worthy Speaker. Mr A’DEANE said he very much regretted being the cause of any delay of business, but in his office of Speaker he considered it only common courtesy to allow members a certain latitude of time in the case of an adjournment. Usually when the Council adjourned for dinner, though the nominal time tor meeting was 7, yet they did not get together before halfpast. He apologised to members for the delay he had caused, though he thought it would have been but ju-t on their part to have extended the same courtesy to him that he had to them. He considered three quarters of an hour an insufficient time for an adjournment for dinner, and suggested that in future the lime of adjournment should be an hour and a half.

The CHALitMAN, after some further business had been gone into, reported progress, and the SPEAKER resumed the chair.

On the motion of Mr TANNER, the committee on the Tollgate Bill was. postponed. The Cemetery Act was passed through committee, and reported as amended to the Speaker. Ordered to be read a third time on Wednesday.

T’he. Council then (S'3s) adjourned.

WEDNESDAY, 9th OCTOBER.

The Speaker • took the chair at 3 o’clock. Present,—All the members except Mr M‘Lean.

The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. SEMI-WEEKLY MAIL TO WAIPAWA.

Mr TANNER moved—

That application be made by the Superintendent (as agent for the General Government) to the Postmaster-General for a bi-weekly mail between Napier and Waipawa.

' —This could be carried into effect by the expenditure of an . additional £3O per annum, which he was sure was a very reasonable suin when the advantage derived from it was considered..

Mr BUCHANAN suggested that the words, “ and between Napier and Meanee,” should be added. Meanee was lan important district,, only five" miles from Napier, with an express running two or three times a day, ; and Vyet possessed only a .weekly, mail..

Mr TANNER, with the permission of the Council, added the . words.suggested by the,member for the Country Districts to ins motion, which was then carried. NGARURORO BRIDGE. Mr BUCHANAN moved the following retolutions; — , 1,. That the opening to traffic of the Ngarnroro Bridge was an unwise ahd ; needless sacrifice of the rates paid without, murmur at,the passage of the river; lms exposed the Govesrhriieifirto the imputation of improperly favoring ’special private interests, and ought to be reviewed, . ’ ;; ", : '2. L That as the -Bridges ’over -the Ngururoro river; and .Waitangi stream•" have. , been Built at a heavy cost oat of borrowed money, the intereston ivbfob must be born® ;by. the wfiole community,

this Council’ -resolves. 1 ’ that l such': rates (over and above-the expenses of collection) ought-to be charged thereat ( as will,suffice to defray bank inr terest on tbeir'cost and that of their, and provide a-fund for fair annual, wear , and tear.

3. That his Honor the! Superintendent be requested to'introdace a Bill to glve effect to these: resolutions during tlie present .sitting.

—Xn the' present unfortunate predicament of it behoved, the Government to be just before they were generous. They had been very unwise to, relinquish, withoiit-any public request to that effect being made,‘the ! dues coUected at the punt over the Ngaruroro river. - No one objected to these; the fare was paid without a murmur, and passengers considered they received a,fair return for their sixpence. When it was considered what loDg delay sometimes took place at the punt, and what a boon the bridge had been to the settlers, he thought that passengers could not feel the slightest" hesitation in paying their sixpence there. They had been told that the dues collected at the ferry punt reached £BOO per annum, and in the present Btate of coUapSe of the Provincial funds, he repeated, it was very unwise to give it up. There had been, many allotments recently sold in the neighbourhood, and he considered these had been unduly favored. A-new bridge had been erected, good roads ’ had been made, the ground had been well drained, and altogether the value of property in the vicinity must have been ihoreased fourfold. Every one knew that the bridge had been placed' in* the wrong place—a place ; where it was most costly to make, and, ns it was exposed to the worst action of the floods and tides, most costly to maintain. The united cost of the 'Waitangi and Ngaruroro bridges must have amounted to £5,000; and the greater part of this, t ie cost of the Ngaruroro bridge, was paid .out of borrowed money, for which the whole Province was paying interest at 10 per cent, per annum. The bridge ought to be made to defray its own cost, as weU as the interest of the money with which it was built, and ought to provide a fund to keep it in repair. He thought something ought to be done to rectify the injustice of which he had complained, and he therefore moved these resolutions. Colonel WHITMORE seconded the resolutions. He should support them if the words after “ river,” in the first, were struck out.

Mr TANNER asked if paying the fare at the bridge would clear the tollgate. - Air BUCHANAN said tliat this fare must not be considered as having any connection with the tollgate system. It was simply to pay the ccst and support of the bridge, as Veil as the interest of the monsy with which it was built. Air CARLYON said that he had been misreported with reference to tollgates. and he would now correct any misapprehension that might have arisen. He had strenuously supporccd the Tollgate Bill, and fully agreed with tlie principle of tolls ; but where, from the nature of the traffic, a toll would do little more than repay Uncost of collection, he considered it was out of place, and could not support- it. Mr ORMOND said that, as usual with the motions of the member for i he Country Districts, the oue before the Council started with an endeavour to blame the Government. If this bridge was taxed, in common fairness the bridge the lion, gentle-" man’s constituents passed over would have to be taxed too. These resolutions would not be fair to the persons who held land in the neighbourhood of the bri Ige, for which they had paid a high price, knowing it was near the site of the bridge. The Meanee settlers had bought their land before the bridge was buiit; it had risen immensely in value, but they had paid no tax, and the Government liad received no benefit from it. He had obtained some figures from the Laud Office, showing the Cost of the bridges, and the revenue derived from the districts surrounding them. From special land sales in the to wn of Clive had Been derived, £1,239; Clive Suburban, £2,859; West Clive, £3,638; andHaveiock, £1,359 —Total, £12,155. Against this was the cost of the bridges, £5,000. Special sales of Meanee Suburban land had produced £1,959 ; Western side of Harbour, £647—Total, ££,450, against £1,760, the cost of the bridge. From these figures it was very evident that the Meanee settlers had not contributed a fair proportion to the revenue. He hoped the Council would see the justice of these remarks, and that the motion would not pass. Mr RHODES said the resolution spoke of the rates of the old ferry punt being paid without a murmur, whereas he knew they had given rise to considerable grumbling, and would have caused much more, could it have produced any effect. To tax the new bridge would be to inflict a gross injustice on the settlers in the district, who paid a high price for the land on the faith that the bridge should be free. He considered that, at all events, the discussion of the subject should be deferred till after the Tollgate question had been settled. . Mr TIFFEN hsid voted against taxing the Meanee bridge, and would be consistent/ and vote against these resolutions. -Mr WOOD agreed with the member for Clive that the consideration of these resolutions" should be’postponed till the Tollgate Bill had been disposed of. Should that bill pass, as he feared it would, he would be glad to discuss the question now before the house. ;

. Major’LAMBERT said that he thought the member for the Country Districts had this time somewhat over-reaohed himself. Tbey should pause and think well before they inflicted a tax of this nature upon the public::,' : As to the toll being' paid cheer* iuUy, he f (Major Lambert) was nejer cheerful when lie, approached that punt. There was always too much-’danger of going to th® botyoxn. ; -He thought- the mover of

those resolutions had gone too far. If this bridge was taxed,-so should the Meanee the Eparaima bridge, the Long bridge, and the Pakipaki bridge be taxed a150.:,.-,' , - , - Air BUCHANAN said the member for Te Auto had characterised the resolutions as unfair. He maintained there was , nothing: unfair in them. All that, was sought to "be done by them was to recoup the actual expenditure on the bridge—expenditure from a loan .not yet : realized. He (Mr Buchanan) had heard the discussion in that House when the Loan Bill waß first proposed, and the great argument he heard urged in its favor was, that the objects on which it was spent would be reproductive. He concluded that this must have been a mere flourish of rhetoric. The member for Porangahau was particularly great at the tu quoque argument, and had brought forward a series of. figures to prove that the Meanee bridge ought to be taxed in preference to the oue over the Ngaruroro. There was no parallel between the two cases. The Meanee bridge had been built out of the revenue of the Province, when its funds were in a flourishing state, and the Government had so much money that they scarcely kne w howto use it. The Ngaruroro bridge had been built with borrowed money, at a time of great financial depression. Again, there was a marked difference in the characteristics of the two rivers. A toll at Meanee could be easily evaded by using the ford, while any attempt to ford the Ngaruroro would be futile, except it were at Karamu. [Mr Tahnee said there was also a ford at Pukahu.] It was au instance of special favor to private interests that the expense of a bridge built at- such a time should be borne by the whole Province, and not by those' who made use of it. The member for Clive had said that the surrounding settlers had paid for their lands on the faith that the bridge would be free, lie wished to know whether they had received any pledge from the Government to that effect,' or whether any such ideas had been held out to them. If the Government had pledged themselves, he disputed their right to do so, but the public faith could not be broken. If it were a private or semi-private arrange- 1 meat, he submitted that the Council 1 should not be guided by it iu any way whatever.

Air RHODES said there had been no tacit pledge. He had merely said that there had been such an understanding among the purchasers.

Mr BUCHANAN continued: In the absence of any pledge the Council were ai perfect liberty to deal witn the Bill if they chose. As for those who, in the innocence of their hearts, had bought the surrounding land in the fai'.h that the bridge would be free when they had no ground for that belief, he would not have thought it of them, knowing, as he did, that tiny were generally.very sharp fellows. He (lid not know what the member for Waipukurau meant by saying that he (Mr Buchanan) had over-reached himself. He did not suppose his resolutions would be carried by the Council, but personally he did not care if he did not get tlie support of a single member of the Council. He could not tell why members persistently dragged the tollgate* question in. They seemed quite unable to dissever the two ideas. He would again assure them that the resolu tions had no connection whatever with the question of toll. The resolutions were then put and negatived ou the following division Ayes, s—Messrs Buchanan, Weston, Carlyou, Wiiitmore, and Irvine. Noes, it) —Messrs. Wood, Kennedy, Sutton, Rhodes, Doibel, Parsons, Locke, Tanner, Tiif'en, Ormond. COST OE THE NGARURORO BRIDGE. Mr BUCHANAN asked for leave to withdraw the following motion That a return of the entire cost of the Ngaruroro and Waitangi Bridges, aud of then- approaches, be laid ou the table. —lt would be of no use after the rejection of the resolutions. SPIT IMPROVEMENTS. Mr BUCHANAN moved—

Tliat, in the absence of his Honor the Superintendent, his representative iu this Chamber (the member for Porangahau) will have the goodness to explain the nature of the works about being carried on at the Spit; the source whence their cost is to be met; and will lay the plans and estimates on tlie table. —He desired information from the Government, as he did not know much about the matter, but as a very heavy expense had already been incurred in carrying out harbor plans, he hoped it was nothing of this kind.

Major LAMBERT seconded the motion

Mr ORMOND said that it would be remembered that last session, when the Spit was in danger from the floods and heavy sea, certain works were undertaken by the Government for its protection. The merchants of the Spit, wishing to supplement these measures, had contributed the sum of £75, wliioh they had placed in the thehands of the Government. The works consisted of cart loads of stones being deposited in certain places under the direction of the Provincial Engineer. The work was paid for at the rate of Is 6d a load for small stones, and 2s 6d for large ones. *

Major LAMBERT had just listened to the pleasantest speech he had heard this session. A public work whs being done by subscription,: and the Government had not io ;put their hands in their pockets. He was sorry, to say, however, that: he had seen some elaborate works of the nature of an embankment goiug on ah Meanee. . He should plane a motion-on the paper on this subject. He hoped the Government were not about to plunge'into buy difficulties in that direction.

Mr BUCHANAN said that the explanation he. hadjr_eceived referred to a matter entirely new to him—works which he did not know were being.carried on. What his motion had particular reference to was the fact of some large, pieces of timber having been-recently conveyed to the Spit. Mr ORMOND said that the Provincial Engineer did not take the motion as referring to that subject, for the' explanation he had just given.was furnished to him by that gentleman. . This timber was for a new Government whar£ the old one, as they all knew, being in a very dilapidated condition, and the expenditure was under a sum voted last session for that purpose. Mr BUCHANAN was perfectly satisfied if the expenditure was provided for in the Estimates. TE AUTE SCHOOL PROPERTY. Major LAMBERT moved—

That the Government will lay before the Council any correspondence that may have taken place or any information received relative to the school property at Te Aute.

—The Council had several times tried to fin’d whether they could get a portion of this grant applied to public schools. ,He believed if tlie matter was kept properly before the public this might be obtained.

Mr B UCHANAN seconded the motion.

Mr ORMOND said that there was no correspondence on this subject. He described certain action he had taken in Wellington in the matter. A' commission would shortly be appointed to examine and report .upon" these school grants, the Te Aute one of course among the number. The trustee, the Rev. S. Williams, deserved great credit for the manner in which he had managed the estate, applying his pri« vate funds to its advancement; so that now it yielded an income of £IOOO per an. in place of one of about £l2O or £200,. as it did when he took it in hand. SELECT COMMITTEE. Major LAMBERT moved—

Tor a Select Committee to enquire into expenditure incurred in surveying, making, - and superintending the road through the 70-mile Bush, with power to call for persons and papers.

—The Council would see that this was iu reference to the discussion which had recently taken place about the state of the road through the 70-mile Bush. The committee he would propose consisted of Messrs Tanner, Buchanan, Kennedy, and the mover. Report to bo brought up on Friday, 12th inst.

Air BUCHANAN said that five members were required to form a select committee, and suggested that Mr Locke's name be adde i, which was done, and the motion agreed to. HIGHWAYS ACT. ' Mr ORMOND brought up the Report of the Committee on/tha Highways Act, which was read. , CEMETERIES BELL.

The Cemeteries Bill was reported aS amended to tlie Speaker, read a third time, and passed, aud the Council adjourned till 7 p.m.

The Council met at 7 p.m. In the absence of the Speaker, Mr CARLYON moved, and Mr BUCHANAN seconded, that Major Lambert do take the chair pro. ten. 1 his being agreed to, Alajor Lambert took the chair accordingly. The Speaker entered at 7'20, and seeing the hon. member for Wuipnkurau in possession of the chair, left the chamber. Some discussion ensued as to whether the course taken was strictly constitutional; when the attention, of the Speaker was drawn to the fact that there were strangers in the gallery. The house was then cleared of strangers and reporters. When the doors were opened at B'3o the house had gone into committee on the Tollgate Bill. After some-discussion, Mr Buchanan strenuously opposed passing the Bill through committee that night. He wished it deferred till the next day. He moved that the Chairman -do leave the chair. On the first clause of the bill sundry amendments were made, by various members. As it was being put Mr Bn* uhanan moved an amendment and divided the Council upon it. He continued moving amendments and clividing the house upon them, and every quarter of an hour moved au adjournment, on which .he also divided the house. He stated that hits object was to gain time, which had been refused him by the Couucil. 001. Whitmore moved the previous question with a view of putting nn end to the course pursued, but Mr Buchanan called him tp order on the ground th it the previous question could not be put in oommittee, and was confirmed by the Speaker. Mr Carlyon, about 11 o’clock, moved the adjournment of. the Couucil for an hour, but was ruled to be out ot order, as Mr Buchanan had moved an adjournment only thirteen minutes before. The house was cleared at 1 a.m., as certain members were observed in r the strangers’ gallery. At abont 3 o’cloclc Mr Carlyon moved the following addition to the Standing Rules and Orders:— >

114. -That when the Council shall be of opinion that repeated amendments are frivolous and vexatious, no farther amendments shall be allowed to be pat, and, on the motion of any member', the question shall he at once put without further debate, and no amendment upon the motion that the question be now put shall be in order. On a .division this was affirmed by mine votes to two, the noes being Messrs; Bu-' ehanan aud "Weston. It was. enforced upon Mr Buchanan’s next amendment, and he was thus prevented from making anyjnore. The Government having also tomb amendto make, to the clause, another hour’s.delay was caused by Mr Buchanan making use of the new standing'order: and moving that, the amendments of the[Government were “ frivolous and vexatious.’* Clause I was ultimately passed, aud the Counoil adjourned at. ABO a.m,; .