Provincial Council.

Hawke's Bay Weekly Times, Volume 1, Issue 29, 15 July 1867, Page 169

Provincial Council.

THURSDAY, 4tb JULY. ;Toe Council mßtat^So’clock. * Present, —The Speaker and all the members except Messrs. 3j®ke and Sutton. ' i ; The minutes of meeting were read and confirmed. annexation op-.poyeb.tt bat.

Mr TANNER asked the Government— Whether they intend on behalf of the Province to take'any further steps towards the annexation of the Poverty Bay or. southern portion of the Auckland Province, and whether any correspondence has taken place at any time between the two . Provincial Governments on the subject, and if so, that the correspondence be laid on the table. —ln connection with, this question he would review the past and present history of the subject to which it referred. It would be in-the memory of those who were members of the late Council, that last session a similar question was put by one of ;the members. They would remember the reply given by the member for Poranga:bau. He had not personally heard the reply, but he spoke from his recollection of ->■- what he saw reported in the papers at the .time. ,Tlic member for Porangahau' did not deny the right of the .Council to, Ask Buch a question, but his reply was to this effect—-that • bis colleague in the House of Pep&ii&utatives bad sorted their ‘Cards, but ItedL not’intend to show their hand to the sgoiincil, lest they should spoil their,little ; gaihe. .[Mr Ormond denied having,used tb.p*term “little game.”] It might have been " game ’’ alone. He was quoting from memory. Now he contended that this reply was both discourteous to the Council and impolitic. Tne way the Government should have acted, would have been, to use their own simile, to have thrown their cards on the table, that the Council might see exactly how the game .•stood. The Council, he believed, would in this case have taken the only proper *teps under the circumstances, —directed the Superintendent to communicate with the Superintendent of Auckland on the subject, stating the grounds on which the annexation was desired—the wish of the inhabitants, the accessibility of the district •to this province, and tlie invaluable services he (the Superintendent) had rendered to the inhabitants. If the Government had acted in an open and straightforward manner like this, there was no doubt that the Auckland Government would have •conceded the district to them, as the Superintendent of that Province had been known to state that he did not care about the district, but was forced into the action .. lie took by . the underhand proceedinga-of the Hawke’s BUy^Government. Mi* ORMOND rose-to order. He read a Standing Order providing, that no allusion should be made to past debates, and he was searching for auother which said that no member should be allowed to make a,hy remarks oh putting a question. The SPEAKER requested the member to allow the member for Porangahau some time to search for the rule he had alluded to. -

Mr ORMOND said that he was unable to find the rule he referred to, and would riot detain the member any longer. He was. however, sure that such a rule existed. . ,

Mr TANNER continued. Ho repeated that the reply was discourteous to the Council. Surely they were entitled, to be consulted about the action of the Government. It was not for the Executive to arrogate to themselves the power to dictate to the Council the action they were to ■take. The very word “Executive” showed the duties of that body. , The Council was .a* deliberative body, and decided upon the ' •course the province was to take upon any matter, and th" duty of the Superintendent and Executive was to carry-their decisions into effect. Tiie Executive were the servants of |he Council, and not their mas-t--rs j and .vet one of that body insulted the Council by calling it a Parochial Hoard. What member of a parochial board would act in important matters in .dependency of, and without the consent •of, the other members ? The action taken was impolitic, because the ..Government must have known that the answer would appear in the papers, must be. seen by the Auckland Government; whoj seeing that ‘there was an under-current at work to dispossess th.-m of their land, wotild naturally be. on the qui vive to frustrate? it. If any provinoe—WeLington, for instancesought to extend its territory, and was to encroach upon 'this province, we should expect our members to fight to the best o( their _ ability to prevent Buch au act ol injustice. - He should be sorry to be misunderstood ; lie oid not wish to impute unworthy motives to the Government; but it seemed as if when.they saw the sun cf Auckland’s prosperity setting—the seal rif Government removed to Wellington—the war expenditure stopped—that the\ sided with the strongest party,- and at* tempted to administer another kick to the -fallen man. Whatever, advantage might have been derived from the annexation, he congratulated the province that they did. not acquire it by auy such act of spoliation. If this had passed,‘and any larger province had attempted to absorb this one, ity. could ■ not 1 halve raised - anyobjectiohto • such action. Hequite expected to: be told from fine opposite, ride thatthegerieral etyle qf his- remarks was somewhat .audri ; cious ju 'so young a mem beir, and that he ,=. showeda want- of "the req uiaite,;a we and veneration for the G’O verrimenfc If this

was shd case, hisonly apology, was, that; lie s h»d heen

ndt.piw>9pgs .the organ of veneration. He would remind the member for Porangahau that he was as old' a colonist as himself, arid - that though/'riot : quite ’so old a politician, he had always taken thb deepest interest in the welfare^of the provinoe and colony. He considered such arguments as he had mentioned a sign of weakness. Let'every question be decided upon its merits, and not whether it was introduced by an ancient or a modern politician. Mr RHODES said tliat the Govern menc intended to take no further steps in the matter, and that there was no. correspondence *on the subject.

EXPENSES OP THE SUPREME COURT.

Mr CARLYON moved—

For a Return of the expenses- appropriated to this Province for the holding of a Supreme Court at Napier, and for a Return of the number of cases of Civil and Criminal which have been tried at the Supreme Court at Napier, with their results.

Mr WESTON seconded the motion, which was agreed to.

ERADICATION OP THISTLES.

Mr WOOD moved— For leave to bring in a Bill for the eradication of Thistles within certain defined districts.

—He said it was not usual to make any remarks at this stage of the bill, but in this case he wished to offer a few words of explanation before the second reading camp on. The permissive clause was expunged, and the operation of the bill intended to be restricted to two or three limited districts. The boundaries of four or five districts had been specified on the schedule, and it would depend upon the feeling of other members whether they would all be retained; but, so far as he was concerned’, he would only press for two—the town and suburban land of Havelock, and part of the Mohaka block. In both these cases the constituencies had asked for such protection as this bill was intended to afford.

Mr DOLBEL seconded the motion. Leave was granted; 'the bill was read a first time ; ordered to be printed ; and its second reading made- an order of the day lor Tuesday next.

WELLINGTON DEBT. Mr WOOD asked his Honor the Superintendent—

Whether a Return moved for in last Council by Mr Wilkinson, and promised by the Government, is likely shortly to bs laid on the table, to show the total amount paid by the Hawke’s Bay Province on account of the (so-called) Wellington debt, distinguishing-the proportion of such amount intended for payment of interest from that intended to be applied (through the medium of-a sinking fund) toward reducing the y principal.; J —The return in question had been asked for last session, and was one that would give some valuable information.

Mr ORMOND said that the government was now m a position to furnish the return required. Hitherto, all statements received on the subject had been confusea and almost unintelligible. Now, however, a definite statement and a return could be prepared, such as would be of some use to members. Owing to press of work, a few days would elapse before it could be laid on the table.

PAPAKURA AND HIKUTOTO BLOCK.

Mr WEdTON moved—

For a Return showing the acreage of the Papakura and Hikutoto Blocks, the names of the sublessees of the same, the quantity sub-let ■to each, the amount of annual rental payable thereon, and a copy of the Leases granted by the Provincial Government.

—lt was not improbable that the subject of those leases might yet coine under discussion, and it was desirable tint the Council should have before it all necessary informati on.

Mr RHODES said that a copy of the case would be laid on the table at once, and that the return would be prepared iu a day or two.

CHEEP POST OPFICE,

■ Mr SUTTON not being in his place, the following notice lapsed:— Toat all correspondence be laid on the table between the Provincial and General Government respecting the removal of the Chief Post Office to a more central and convenient site.

On notice given by Mr WOOD, it was again placed on the paper.

PUBLIC CEMETERIES.

Mr TIFFEN moved— For leave to bring in a bill for the Regulation of Public Cemeteries.

Leave was granted j the bill read a first time; ordered to be printed; and its second reading made an order of the day for Tuesday.

-CHURCH PROPERTY AT TE AUTE.

Major LAMBERT moved—

That the? Government will inform the Council if any application has been made -to the Trustees of the Church property at Te Ante, with a view of obtaining some assistance towards the flffiirmfiVrnnl purposes of the Province. '

, —As an educational tax was in contemplation his motive was to call the attention of the public to a large and valuable property at To Aute, which was'set apart, for educafcional purposes. \He wished the Government to ask the trustees whether'any part of the income derived from this property could riot be applied to assising the education fund of the'Province. Mr DEMOND .said that the land in question was church property ; having been gran fed partly by the natives. He thought if the Government askedUthe proposed question, the reply would not be agreeable.. ' - ' ■ e Aft.epjßQine further discussion the motion was agreed to..- '

CATTLE TRESPASS.

On the motion of Mr-CARLYON the Council went into Committee on the cattle Trespass Bill. -After a considerable portion of the bill had been considered, the Chairman reported progress, and the Council adjourned till next day.

FRIDAY, sth' JULY.

The Council met at 8 p.m. Present, —The Speaker and atl the members except Messrs. Lobke and Dulbel

The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed.

POINT OF, ORDER.

The SPEAKER s.-iid that with reference to the point of order raised by the’member for Porangahau, he had found that he was quite correct, and that the long speech which the number for Te Aute had made with reference to his question, was out of order. He had been unable to find any rule on the subject in the edition of May’s Parliamentary Practice, belonging to the Council, and it was to the diligence and courtesy of the member for the Country Districts, that he was indebted for a more complete edition, from which he would now read the rule. They would see that it prohibited any reference to debateable matter.

Mr BBC HANAN said the Council would perceive that the same rule held good lor replies. . He had often heaid debateable matter introduced into a Government reply in the Council, and he thought it was well the subject had been brought .before their notice.

PAPERS,

- Mr ORMOND laid on the table a letter from the Deputy-Registrar, with reference to the return called for. by Mr Carlyon. This letter enclosed a circular from -the General Government-, forbidding their officers to give any information which might come to their knowledge in the way of buriuess.

Mr CARLYON said that the letter was an insult to the Council, and he did not see why reference had been made to the Deputy-Regist:ar at all.

HARBOR REGULATIONS.

Mr TIFFEN moved, —

For a Select Committee to frame Harbor Regulations for the Wairoa and Mohaka: this Committee to consist of Mr Parsons, Lieut-Col. YVliitmore, Messrs Wood, Rhodes, and the mover.

Mr PARSONS seconded the motion. Agreed to. REMOVAL OP POST OFFICE.

Mr WOOD said the motion had been placed on the paper by his friend the. mernb r for tlre 'Tbn , T7; , Hriti~h:e- frad gi'veri' notice of it for to-day in order that it might not lapse. He moved •That all correspondence be laid on the table between the Provincial and General Government respecting the removal of Chief Post Office to a more central and convdifeut site. Mr SUTTON seconded the motion. Mr M‘L EAN laid the correspondence on the table.

REPORT ON FENCING BILL,

Major LAMBERT obtained leave to defer the report of this committee till Tuesday.

SHEEP AND SCAB AMENDMENT BILL.

Mr ORMOND moved the reading of the Sheep and Scab Imendmeut Biil. The bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed presently.

CATTLE TRESPASS BILL,

On the motion of Mr CARLYON this bill was read a third time and passed. The Council then passed the Sheep and Scah.Amendment Bill through Committee, and. ordered the third reading for next sitting day.

TUESDAY, 9th JULY.

[We are indebted to our contemporary for the following, our reporter being abseut.] Council met at 3 o’clock. Present, all the members except Messrs Carlyon and Locke.

DISTRICT ROADS BILL.

Mr M'LEAN moved — For leave to bring in a Bill to be called the “ District Roads Bill.”

Leave granted : bill read a .first time, ordered to be printed, and its second read-, ing made an order of the day for Thursday.

TOLL GATE BILL,

Mr ORMOND moved—

For leave to bring in a Bill to legalise the establishment of a Toll Gate between Tareha’s Bridge'and ilia Town boundary. Leave granted; bill read a first time, ordered to be printed, and. Its second reading made an order of the day for Wednesday.

PAPERS.

Mr M'LFAN laid upon the. table the returns (connected with the Hikutoto and Papakura blocks]) moved for by Mr Weston.

THISTLE BILL.

Mr WOOD, in moving the .- second reading of the Thistle Bill, read a formal communication addressed to himself, signed by 18 residents in the town and suburban district of Havelock, approving of his efforts to obtain for them a workable Thistle Act-, and expressing a hope that, with the assistance of the town members, he would.succeed in carrying the measure. Ho also read a resolution passed at a late meeting held at Mohaka, in which tL is settlers of that district, requested their representative,; Mr DolbeL to‘give his support.) to.ithia.tor; a, similar .measure in Council desiring that it might became law

at as early a date as possible,- He trusted that the?; wishes of the bona-fide settlers of

those districts would meet attention from tlie Council. The prin prole of the bill had-been already discussed. And the present measure was remodelled so. as to meet some of the objections urged - against the one first submitted. He had included, in order to test the feeling of tlie Council, three other districts in the schedule—those of Meanee, Papakura, a.id Clive—but could not speak positively as to the wish of the settlers of those districts. Mr DOLBKL seconded the motion.

Major T AMBERT had no objection to a Thistle bill for those who wanted it, but, looking at this measure, lie really could not see - that it would effeet anything. There was no provision for reaching absentees; there was no geting at them, and the bill was of no use withont. Such a measure was altogether premature. Then the unfortunate individual who had land adjacent to a road or river bed. It would be rank injustice to saddle any settler with 1 such an expense—an expense which in equity should be borne by the whole district.

Mr TANNER could not see why settlers who wished it should not have an Act in some shape or other : but he apprehended the principle of the of this bill was scarcely what was required. He thought a Thistle Bill should be altogether permissive—that it should not be brought into operation without the consent pf three-fourths of tlie people, owning threefourths of the acreage. Were it otherwise, a few men posses ing an aero each might combine against a proprietor of 500 acres and ruin him. A Thistle Bill should be.fair to all parties ; not one that would place it in the power of any number of peonle to work injustice to any one holder. He also thought that information under this Act should be before two justices, not one as proposed. He hoped the consideration of this question would be postponed till next session. This would only be for two or three months, and no harm would be done by such delay.

Mr TIFFEN would support the bill; although in many respects he thought it worse than the old one. The old bid provided for absentees, and it was permissive it opened tlie way for a new districts coming under the Act. If they did not include absentees there was little use in legislating upon, the subject. He had been that day-over some absentee land—belonging to Moses —and there were thistles enough, on it to stock the whole of the Meanee fiat.

Mr .TA.NNER moved the previous - • -1,.... Major-LAMBERT seconded the motion Mr ORMOND said that were this amendment carried, the bill would be virtually shelved. Now, although opposed to the bill in its present shape, he did not wish to burke ciscusrion upon it. He would be in favor of a permissive bill—upon the application of three-fourths of the acreage. If that would meet the views of the member for Havelock, he would be prepared to go on with the bill—always provided that it be self-supporting—but not otherwise.

Major LAMBERT again suggested postponement till next session, saying that no harm could take place, and that no good could result from hurrying the measure through. Mr WOOD said that the measure was not being hurried through— that unlike government bills, which were brought up at the very last moment, this biil, in a slightly different shape, had been before ihe public for three months, every facility had been given for the ventilation of the question. As to reaching absentees, noti ing was more desirable than that they sliould be reached, but in the present state of the law they could not be reached. Au alteration in the Non-Payment of Rates Act,.so as to include expenses of this kind and ftneing; would be necessary for this purpose, and au Amendment Act, not improbably, would be brought in during the present session of the Assembly. Meanwhile, a claim upon absentees was provided for, to be enforced when such absentees could be got at. The suggestion that t he b 11 should

not coine into operation without the consent of the owners or occupiers of threefourths of tlie acreage would simply amount, in most cases, to a denial ol justices to the mall farmer. Generally speaking it was against, adjoining large holders that they wanted redress—against a proprietor, it might' be, who in point of acreage could swamp all the rest. An amendment of this nature would simply oe to shelve the bill—at least as regarded some districts. He was there as repre seating the interests of a class of men who were eurueslly trying to improve, but who could do nothing on account of the acres of thistles with which they were surrounded, and against the, owners of which they earnestly asked for such protection as the Council could afford.

After some further discussion the previous question was put; but through uot understanding the technica effect of this motion, there was considerable confusion iu the division that ensued. This took place a second time; but the Speaker, generously taking alUhe blame to himself for mis-direction, intimated his intention of again putting the question, or of resignhis seat.. This was eventually done, with tne following result:— ‘ : A; es-rr (for going on with the bill) Messrs . Irvine,.Tiffen, Sutton, Dolbei, YVood, Parsons, Rhodes, MMjeaii—B. Noes—(for shelving it) Messrs 'Bu

chanan, W eston, Ormond, Kennedy, Tanner, Lambert—6

The question was "then put that the hill be read n, second 1 time,-with the fallwing ’ result:— .

Ayes—Messrs Tiffen, IrVine, Sutton, Wood, Parsons, Dolbei, M‘Lean —7 Noes Messrs . Buchanan, Weston; Ormond, Tanner, I Kennedy, Lambert;' Rhodes—7

The Speaker gave his casting vote with' tlie ayes; tlie bill was accordingly read a• second time, and ordered to be committed' presently. SHEEP AND SCAB AMENDMENT'ACT.'

On the motion of Mr ORMOND, this-’ bill was read a third time and passed.

ESTIMATES.

Mr ORMOND laid on the table the es*timates of expenditure, and gave noticofor next day, of committee of waya and means, and committee of supply.

THISTLE BILL.

The Council then went into committed on the Thistle Bill, aud all the clause* down to the schedules having been considered, the Chairman reported progress and asked leave to sit again.

The Council then (9 p.m.) adjourned till 3 p.m. next day.

WEDNESDAY, 10th JULY. The Council met at 3 o’clock.

Present, —The Speaker and all the members except Messrs. Locke and Carlyon. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed.

PETITION.

Mr BUCHANAN presented a petition from certain residents on the Great North road, setting forth that great inconvenience and unpleasant feeling resulted from certain roads not being laid out, and praying that the matter might be favorably considered.

On the motion of Mr Buchanan, the petition was read and received.

PAPERS. Mr ORMpND laid upon the table the abstract of recces and expenditure for the financial yearSfding 30th June, 1867, and other papers collected with the finance of the province. ■ *’

JUSTICES ON GREAT SOUTH ROAD.

Mr WOOD, pursuant to notice, asked his Honor the Superintendent— Whether his attention had been called to the,fact that no Justice of the Peace is resident on, or at a place easily _ accessible to, the Great South Road—between Napier, on tlie one hand, and Patangata, Waipukurau, aud Ruataniwha on tha’' other ;—andhis Honor has moved the i General Government to add one or more names to the Commission of the Peace, with the view of supplying the deficiency.

—He said - Act, if it became law, wpjila.-reMire the presence of a second magi/tmto«lP administer it, and there was none within a reasonable distance. Hence he put the question stand* tng in his name.

Mr M‘LEAN said that the subject had not been considered by the Government as one esentially necessary. The country referred to was nearly all native land, and had co ! paratively few European settler*. Tlie Resident Magistrate (Mr Cooper) visited Havelock once a fortnight, and there were very few cases indeed for him to hear. The Government, therefore, saw no particular urgency in this matter, especially as at the present moment there wer» no fewer than 43 justices within the province. «

audit committee.

Mr BUCHANAN brought up a pro* gress report of this committee, and moved that it be read.—Read accordingly, and atv extension of time granted for the final re* port.

SLAUGHTER HOUSE BILL,

Mr ORMOND obtained leave to bring, in a Slaughter House Bill. He said that if the Couucil approved of the Government scheme, aud voted the necessary, funds for a public slaughter house, it would see the propriety of an Act for the regulation of the same, the imposition ofduee, &c.

Leave granted; bill read a first time,, and its second reading made an order of the day for Thursday.

WAYS AND MEANS.

Mr ORMOND, pursuant to notice,, moved that the Council go into committee of ways and means. In committee h* purposed making a statement explanatory of the financial position of the province. Mr BUCHANAN objecced to thi* course. The proper parliamentary practice was first to grant a supply, and then to go into committee to consider the way* and means.

Mr O RMOND expressed -a oontrary opinion—that the question of ways and. means was a necessary preliminary to the consideration of the estimates of expendi* turo.

Mr BUCHANAN said that the estimate*, of revenue had not been iu members’ hand* more than ten minutes.

Mr ORMOND said it was matter of in* difference in which form the Council went into committee, and would now move that the Council go into committee of supply. Mr BU CH ANAN said he had au amend* ment to move, and then read the follow* ing:— .

That this Council do resolve,— I. That the estimates of expenditure he referred, hack to the Government, with a view to redaction ’ of the proposed votes, so as to bring them,within ] the limits set By the''financial cbridituwef the go vernm&atr

Q. T!iat rerorganisatiora of the provincial service is necessary. 3. That where the interests of individuals are Concerned, the principle by which the action of the ■ifbveruracnt should be controlled, is, the retention, reference to grade, of officers having the •efficiency requisite for the due discharge of the in•preapetj duties reduction of numbers will give rise lq,

’ Mr TANNER seconded the amendment. < Mr M‘JLEAN did not think this was-the proper time to bring forward such an amendment. When members were in pospession of the statement about to be made Jay his colleague, it would then be competent to bring for ward any resolution. At jhis stage he suhmitred it was im-gidar. ■ 'Major LAMEIiK.T objected to estimat s being framed for lsi months, seeing that Brother session was shortly expected to take place. Three months’ estimates would be quite enough to pass in tn« meantime In the estimates before the Council, no reductions of any consequence hud taken place'; but it was evident that such reductions would have to be made, a.m theo .us of sucn should lie with the Orovenmient. not with private members. Mr ORMOND said that some light- was intended to be thrown upon this in the ptatement he purposed making if the Counpjl would let him do it.

Mr. TANNE Rwo uld s upport the amen dinenfc; which, however, was not intended to be hostile to the Government, but father to save future trouble and unpleasantness.

Lieut-Col. WHITMORE hoped the Council would at least hear the financial (statement. Sir BUCHANAN said that the Estimates should first be remodelled, as the financial statement and the jistiuaates had (JO close a relation to each olher. The amendment was then put, .and carried on tne following division : Aves, B—Messrs8 —Messrs Buchanan, Tanner, Lambert, Weston, Dolbel, Parsons, \Vood. Tiffen.

Noes, 7 —Messrs Irvine, Sutton, Whit more, Rhodes, Kennedy, Ormond.

Mr M'LEA.N said that after the adverse Vote that had been co:ne to, the Government was not prepared to go on with the business; ai d he would ask for an adjournment of the Council. Mr TAN MS it asked whether Gt°vernmeut. wou.d uoi go on with me Highways'Hill, the Toil-Gate Bill,,“add other business that was on the^paper. , Mr OJiMONi* saidr&at both these billWere connected.witli and th-« Govp -nruent would not proceed wish them.

Mr B said tkev were both revenue bills, and that the course taken 'he Giovernment was the correct one. ’ T 10 Council then aajou.-ned.