PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume 17, Issue 1019, 17 May 1871, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

TUESDAY, MAY 16. The Speaker took the chair at 3 p.m. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. Papers. His Honor the Superintendent laid on the table the following papers : 1. Correspondence relative to bridges across Ahuriri harbor. 2. Letter from Captain Carter. 3. Return shewing average attendance of scholars at the schools in the province. 4. Letter from Colonial Secretary, showing terms on which a site might be granted to the Oddfellows. £. Petition from Porangahau setders. 6. Correspondence relative to a Light at the Port of Napier. Slaughter House Bill. Mr. Tiffen, pursuant to notice, moved for leave to bring in a Slaughter House Bill. Mr. Obmono said he would remind the Council of the object with which they originally legislated upon this subject. It was to protect the owners of stock by prohibiting all slaughtering except under proper supervision. For any other purpose the Act was of little use, but some kind of restriction was necessary for the protection

of Btockovvnerg. Mr. Tanner said tbe Council bad another object in passing the Bill—the health and cleanliness of tbe town. Tbe butchers bad also requested something of the kind, for their own protection* Mr. Sutton hoped ,tfae Council would pass this Bill.. The Slaughter-house Act was the greatest hardship the Council had <ever inflicted upon a section of the community. -So far as supervision was concerned, it was useless—no registry book was kept, the person nominally in charge Jhad been for a considerable time absent, and the'establishment was in the <sare of about the most drunken man in the province. The place was only used by five persons, some of whom were taxed at the rate of £3 10s. per week, without deriving ■any benefit. In fact, they would prefer to slaughter in their own paddocks, under proper supervision.

The Bill was read a first time, ordered •to be printed, and tbe second reading made an order of the day for the 17th inst. Postponempnt of Business.

The three motions following, standing in Mr. Colenso's name, were postponed to JTriday, in consequence of his absence.

To ask His Honor the Superintendent whether he intends to introduce a Bill for the amendment of the Education Eate Act.

To ask His Honor the Superintendent whether he intends to bring in a Bill to .amend the Toll-gate Act. To ask His Honor the Superintendent to obtain from the Provincial Engineer an estimate of the probable cost which would be incurred in removing the present Tollgate to a site at the Ngaruroro Bridge. Foot-rot. Mr. Johnston, pursuant to notice, asked his Honor the Superintendent— If it is his intention to bring in a Bill, during the present session, to amend the Scab Act, in so far as it relates to foot-rot. His Honor, in reply, stated that he was ■aware that the Act required amendment, but had been unable to find time to devote to the subject. The best course was, perhaps, the one proposed by the member for Te Aute, ia the next notice on the paper.

Lieut.-Col. Lambert, pursuant to notice, moved—

That a Committee be appointed to take Into consideration the working of the present Sheep and Scab Act, to take such evidence as can be obtained as to the spread <of the disease known as foot-rot, and to recommend such changes in the present system .as will make it efficient and beneficial to the interest it is intended to protect. Such Committee to consist of Messrs. A'Deane, Tiffen, Johnston, KusseU, Maney, Bridge, ,and the iwfover.

—lt was unnecessary to point out the importance of this subject. He had seven iinames on the proposed committee, but should like the whole sheep interest in the Council to be represented.

Mr. Tanner was not satisfied with the proposed committee. Two, at least, of the seven gentlemen were in favor of .doing away with the Act altogether, simply because it had never been enforced. If this was the greatest fault they could find with the Act, they had not much to complain of. He believed that the Act, as it now stood, could not he improved. Mr. Ormond said that, so far as be -could judge, the existing Act, had it been

enforced in all its provisions, would have been found utterly unworkable. Large districts, so far as flock-owners were concerned, would have been entirely shut up, one-third of the sheep in the province would not have been allowed to move from one part of the province or another ; and many of the run-holders, whose sheep, perhaps, might be quite clean, would have been debarred from moving or disposing of their flocks. On these points an amendment was imperative. Another point, too, had to be considered. Many of the penalties imposed in the Act were beyond the jurisdiction of the Council, and though it had been left in operation by the General Assembly, it would cease to be in force at the close of the next session of that body. Many of the most valuable clauses of the Act would thus be invalidated. The Council, therefore, must so frame the provisions as to bring them within their own powers of legislation, and this alteration alone would involve the entire re-modelling of the Act. In his opinion it was necessary that flocks should be allowed to travel freely in the province after having been dressed and all diseased animals eliminated. The Act would also require modification in many other points, whieh. would no doubt suggest themselves to the committee. As the Act at present stood it would be simply impossible to carry it out —all the pastoral interest would be arrayed against it \ whereas if it were so modified

as to bear upon those who were careless and neglectful, and to protect those who were doing their best to cleanse their flocks, he believed tbe Council would have the entire sympathy and support of the pastoral interest. He hoped that, guided by the experience of last year they would be able to produce a useful and workable measure.

Lieut.-Colonel Lambert having made a few remarks in reply, the motion was carried, the names of Mr. Tanner and Mr. Rhodes having been added to the committee. Toll Gate. A question by Mr. Dox.bex., as to whether the Government intended to bring in a Toll-gate Amendment Act this session, lapsed, in consequence of his absence. Petition. Lieut-Cot Lambert presented a petition, signed by 119 residents in Napier, protesting against the Bill to hand over dive Square to trustees. lie said one of tbe members for the town, Mr. Colenso, was to have presented the petition, but was unable to do so, being seriously unwell. He had asked the gentleman who handed him the petition, if there were no other town members, to which the reply was made, "(J yes, but they are afraid they will lose their popularity." Under these circumstances he came to the rescue. (Laughter.) He was surprised at the town members holding themselves aloof, particularly the one, who, when Napier should have a corporation, was the Mayor elect. (Laughter.) He moved that the petition be read.

Petition read. Lieut.-Col. Lambebt moved that the petition be received. Mr. Sutton objected to the reception of the petition on two grounds. In the first place it transgressed the rules of the Council by referring to a Bill before the House, and in the second place it contained statements simply untrue. It set forth that the object of the Bill was to fence in Give Square—which was directly opposed to the intention of the Bill. It set forth that a road would by this means be closed. The map of the town showed that there was no road laid out there. The land had beeu conveyed by a grant from the Governor to the Superintendent for the purpose of [tublie recreation, and the public had no more right to use any portion of it as a road than they had over any other private ground. The person who drew the petition evidently knew nothing about the Bill. Mr. Kennedy opposed the reception of the petition on the same grounds as the last speaker. Mr. Tiffen said thai* in the original map of the town there was no road through this ground. It was at first laid out as a halfacre reserve for an Athenaeum. He be- ! lieved the object of the present Bill was to have it made a suitable site for a parade or cricket-ground. Mr. Ormond thought it only proper courtesy to receive the petition. By so doing they did not in any way bind themselves to accede to it. Unless a petition was utterly disrespectful or otherwise informal it ought to be received,

Mr. Sutton said many people bad signed the petition under the impression that it would have the effect of closing CarJylestreefi. He believed a counter petition would receive many signatures. Capt. Russell thought the strong language of the member for the town was not in any way justified by the petition. The part to which he had taken objection as untrue commenced "as your petitioners believe." He was not surprised at public objection to the Bill. One of the first acts of trustees might be to close this reserve to the public. Lieut.-Col. Lambert said the difficulty of restraining trustees was well known. Their power over land was almost equal to that of a freehold owner, and nothing short of legal process oould affect them. He was astonished at members for the town resisting a petition signed by 119 respectable men in their constituency, and endeavoring to prevent its reception by the Council. He did not doubt that a counter petition would be got up —that was quite a usual thing in Napier. As for criuket, that was a boys' amusement. A reserve for public reerea- , tion should be something more than a cricket and quoit ground. The Council granted another site for the Athenaeum in order that Give Square, might be reserved for the public, but not with the intention that it should be enclosed. The stopping of Carlyle-street would even now be a serious matter, but it would be still more so when that street became —as it eventually would—the road to the Spit. Petition received. Licensing Amendment Sill. Mr. Sutton moved the second reading of this Bill. The present rule, that licenses might only be granted on a particular day in the year, was an inconvenient one in many respects, and it was advisable that a discretionary power should be given to the Courts of Petty Sessions, to grant licenses at such other times as might be convenient to them. The present Bill had been drawn with the object of making this alteration.

Mr. Ohmond pointed out that in the Licensing Act, as in the Sheep Act, the Council had considerably exceeded their powers, and that therefore many of their provisions could not be enforced in a court of law. He thought it very probable that the present Bill was also ultra vires, and considered it necessary that some inquiry should be made on this point before it reached its final stages. With this view, if the second reading was granted, he would move that it be referred to a select committee.

The Bill was read a second time, and, on the motion of Mr. Ormond, was referred to a select committee. Highway Bill. Mr. Ormond, in moving the second reading of this Bill, explained that the old Act was in many respects unsuited to the requirements of the province. No one member could be expected to draft a Bill which would satisfy all parties ; but he had given time and attention to the one now before the Council. He had studied all the Acts of the various provinces relating to this subject; but the Bill he had introduced was in most respects similar to the Act in the Province of Auckland now in force, which seemed well-drawn, terse, and workable. The present Bill in the first place provided that the whole of the Napier plains should form one road district. This, he thought, was the best course, as there was a great similarity in the conditions of the roads throughout this district. Country roads were to be provided for by rates based on the assessed value of the property —a course open to various objections ; but he knew of no other method by which the funds could be raised. Regarding bye-roads, he believed that before long the General Government would render such assistance that wiih the addition of a moderate local assessment, tbey could be maintained without difficulty.

The Bill then passed its second reading, and was referred to a select committee. Oddfellows' Hall Bill. Mr. Obmond, in moving the second reading of this Bill, explained that it was merely to enable the Government to take the necessary steps to make the land over to the Oddfellows, as pointed out by the Colonial Secretary. Read a second time, and ordered to be committed presently. Third reading ordered for Thursday (to-morrow).

Napier School BillMr. Ormond moved the second reading of the above Bill. The Napier School Fund, which had been long: accumulating, and had been for some considerable time in Chancery, was now likely to be released, and would be devoted to the building of a school, which was much needed. The object ol the present Bill was to provide a site, as none of the educational. reserves now unlet, were available for the purpose. Mr. Lee would oppose the granting of a site, unlfss under severe restrictions. The fund wa? strictly a private one, and the subscribers could dispose of it as they pleased. Nothing had yet been settled ; a scheme had certainly been drawn up, which was to be submitted to the Supreme Court, and the subscribers had received notice that if they disapproved of the scheme they must attend the Court on a day to be fixed, and state their objections. Until a scheme had been definitely confirmed by the Supreme Court, the matter would remain in an unsettled state. Mr. Tanner did not know whether this fund was to be devoted to the education of boys solely, or to both sexes. If there was no provision to the contrary, the girls, he considered, had an equal claim with the boys to the benefit of the fund. It was even of more importance that the girls should be educated than the boys, for it was an undoubted fact that the fair portion of the community had the greatest share in directing and guiding its development. Mr. Tiffen had, through the kindness of one of the subscribers, seen a draft of the scheme, which provided that a certain proportion should be set asido to accumulate for the purpose of establishing a girls* school, when such became necessary. A boys' school building was urgently required, as might be seen by any one who looked into the present coromon school, where there were sixty or seventy boys in a building about large enough for forty.

Mr. A'Deane asked if the school in question was really a common school, or a denominational institution.

Mr. Tifvbn said that six persons in the town had decided to establish the school, and the Presbyterian body had given the use of their sehool-room until another building could be obtained. Mr. Rhodes thought this was not the time or place for the expression of private opinions on education. Lieut-Colonel Lambert objected totheir giving away public property. The fund was rich enough to pay for a pite. Capt. Russell agreed with the principle just stated, but thought this case exceptional. A school was an institution of public utility.

Mr. Tiffen said that in the schema before the Court the accumulated funds had all been otherwise appropriated. No provision had been made for the purchase of a site.

Mr. Ormond was quite willing that a select committee should be appointed, but thought the Council should first affirm the principle of the Bill by voting for the second reading. He considered, however, that a select committee was unnecessary—the subject could be as well dealt with by a committee of the whole bouse. He waa glad that there seemed at length to be a prospect of a definite settlement of this question. The Bill was then read a second time.

Mr. Lee moved that the Bill be referred to a select committee, to consist of Messrs. Tiffen, Kennedy, A'Deane, and the mover. Mr. Tanner objected to the select committee. The Bill would have to be considered in committee of the whole House, and this would simply involve double work. He afterwards withdrew his objeC' lion. Mr. Lee's motion was then put and carried. Napier Rifle Volunteer Drill-shed* Pursuant to notice, Mr. Ormond moved the second reading of this Bill. He had before explainhd the circumstances that gave rise to the introduction of the Bill; they were briefly the following:—Observing the valuable services that Captain Robinson was rendering, he had used his privilege as Superintendent, and agreed to grant to th© corps under his command, a section on a three years' lease, to build a drill shed on. Three years they considered too short a tenure to risk the necessary outlay on. In. the meantime the Napier School committee applied for a site, and Captain Robinson waived his claim to the one of which a lease had been promised him, on condition that the Superintendent would use his best endeavour to get him one on a permanent tenure..

Several members expressed an opinion saat the site should not be granted to one porps specially, but to the whole body ,of Mijitia and Volunteers. The debate was finally adjourned till fiext sitting day. The Council then adjourned till 7.p.m. On the resumption of the sittings at 7 p.m. Mr. Sutton moved that the second reading of the Olive Square Bill be postponed till next Hitting day. It was postponed accordingly. COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS. Pursuant to notice Mr. Ormond moved—'"That £11,700, being the estimated revenue jfor the year ending June 30, 1872, be granted to defray the expenditure for the same period." Mr. Tanner asked how it was that no moiety of consolidated revenue appeared on the estimate of this year, whereas £IOOO appeared last. Mr. Ormond explained that under the new system the province, instead of its share of the Customs revenue, got a capitation grant of £2 per head, and a special grant of £3OOO on account of the native population, that from this sum very large deductions were made as provincial charges. Some of these, consisting of the interest on loans, could not, of course, be affected by any action on the part of the Council. Other**, to the amount of more than £BOOO, might possibly be modified by the Assembly on the recommendation of the Council. These charges were very much larger this year than they were last. The increase was owing to the expenditure on the Militia under the new Act, which made it necessary that they should be paid at the rate of Is j6d a day, a charge which caused the total to mount up to £1,8200 as opposed to £7OO last year. Another cause was the introduction of the Land Transfer Act. These two items alone accounted for more than the diilerence between this year and last in £heso charges. Mr. Sutton did not think the recommendation of the Council would go very far with the Assembly. As to the Land •Transfer Act, he could never see the necessity of having two solicitors to carry it into ielfect.

Mr. Buchanan pointed out that the reduction of 2s per head yearly in the capitation allowance would make a difhrence of £6OO next year to the revenue of the Proyince. We should, therefore, endeavour to get these charges cut down to the lowest figure ; we were paying £IB,OOO for Militia, or 6d per head of population. Payment at this rate in England would mount up to £900,000, or more f!nn half 'be cost of the British Army, it it were levied as the education rate is levied, there would soon be a downright revolt against it. Mr. A'Deane asked if there was any reason for voting the whole expenditure at .once, as this was not the usual course.

Mr. Osmond said tbat he bad consulted with the Speaker, and he had recommended it as advisable. In reference to the Provincial charges, he thought that any recommendation from the Council would receive very great attention in tbe Assembly.

Mr. Routledge asked bevy the Government could calculate on receiving £1,500 for immigrants' promissory notes, seeing that the Government had, the other day, lost a case against two girls who were sued for passage-money. Mr. Ormokd explained that about £4OO put of the sum on the estimates was already being paid in instalments. There would be no difficulty in recovering the rest. The passage-money referred to in the estimates was from immigrants brought out under a different system from that under which the immigrants referred to by the metnbar for Fetane came to the Colony. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Provincial Treasurer's Sala?'y. The Council then went into Committee pf Supply, and proceeded with the consideration of the estimates of expenditure. On the item, "Provincial Treasurer, £200," Mr Tifeen moved that the item be altered to " £250." Mr. Okmond reminded the Committee that in addition to the Treasurer's salary, he received £SO from the General Government as Receiver of Land Revenue. The motion as amended was passed. The Honorarium.

On the item, "Country Memhers, at 12s 6d per diem, £150," Mr. Sutton proposed "That the item be reduced to £75." |ie considered that members residing in distant parts of the Province should be paid, but that those residiug near enough tf> ride home in the evening should not Receive payment. He could not see why the Cp-unpil did not sit on Mondays and £g {airways.

Mr. A'Deane said that the country members had in a previous Council proposed that the sittings should be at ten o'clock in the morning, but this had been opposed by town members on the ground that it would interfere with their business. They had proposed sitting on Mondays and Saturdays ; but the Government objected that in that case insufficient time would be allowed tbem for the preparation of the business of the Council. Mr. Rhodes was well aware that the honorarium had been drawn by members who ought nut to have obtained it, having been so often absent from their places in the Council, fie proposed the following amendment —" That country members receive £1 per diem for every actual sittingr day."

Lieut.-Colonel Lambert . supported the member for Give. He did not believe that the majority of the inhabitants of Napier were opposed to the payment of country members —he gave them credit for being a more liberal-minded people. Mr. Tanner would support the member for Clive. His constituency were unanimous in favor of the payment of members.

Mr. Kennedy considered that members who could ride home and attend to their business should not be paid. Mr. Routledge proposed a further amendment —" That the clerk of the Council keep a roll of country members, and that those who attend receive 15s per diem, except residents in Napier, representing country districts." Mr. Buchanan regretted exceedingly that so trivial a matter should occupy the ime so long—that whi'e questions of importance, involving the outlay of thousands had been passed over in comparative silence, the small sum now asked for had occasioned such a talk. The principle of payment to members was by this time established everywhere in the colonies. In Victoria the Assembly had voted £3OO per annum to members, and in Nelson all members were paid, as also in the New Zealand Parliament. He claimed Mr. Sutton's vote for the removal of the sittings to Wuipawa, so that town members might be placed in the same position as the country members were at present. The opposition to this vote was less on public than private grounds. Mr. A'Deane proposed, as a further amendment, "That the item stand as originnlly on the Estimates." The amendment was then put, and negatived on a division. Ayes, 4 ; noes, 10. The other amendments were also negatived, with the exception of Mr. Rhodes's, which was carried on the following division :* — Ayes, 7 Messrs. Rhodes, Ormond, Bridge, Tanner, Routledge, Colonel Lambert, and Captain Russell. Noes, 4 Messrs. Sutton, Kennedy, Tiffen, and Kinross. The Chairman reported progress, and the Council adjourned until Wednesday.

ORDERS OF THE DAY. Mr. Kinross to move — That the petition of the "Wairoa Military Settlers be considered, and that this Council approve of the remission of the amounts due by them to the Government for assisted passages. Mr. Dot.brl to ask the Superintendent— If it is the intention of the Government to bring in a Toll-gate Amendment Act this session. Mr. Man by to ask His Honor the Superintendent — Whether it is the intention of the Government to take any measures for the erection of the proposed bridge over the creek leading to the Karamu from the Papakura block. Mr. Oumond to moveFor the appointment of a Select Committee to consider and make recommendations as to the division of the £I2OO for Road Boards among the various districts of the province for the year commencing July 1, 1871. Such committee to consist of Messrs. Routledge, Russell, Kinross, Tanner, Bridge, Lambert, and the mover. Mr. Ormond to move — That a Select Committee be appointed to enquire and report what blocks of land are available for special settlement and also as to the terms upon which such lands should be granted. Such committee to consist of Messrs. A'Deane, Colenso, Tanner, JJolbel, Kinross, Bridge, and the mover. Mr. Ormond to move—

That the correspondence relating to the resignation of office by the late Provincial Treasurer, Oapt. Carter, be referred to a Select Committee to report on the claim put forward by thutgentleman for consideration of past "services, Such committee to

consist of Messrslßhodes, Tiffen, Lambert, 1 Russell, and Johnston. Mr. Sutton to ask His Honor the Superintenclent— If be can inform the Council what suras of money have been actually paid as rates to Highway J? oards in this Province within the past year. Lieut.-Colonel Lambert to moveThat the two Eepresentatives for the House of Assembly be requested to exert themselves to cause an enquiry to be instituted for the purpose of ascertaining m what manner the profits arising, from the Te Aute School Trust have been, disposed of, and that a copy of this resolution be forwarded by the Speaker to each of the Representatives and the Colonial Secretary. Mr. Sutton,to move For leave to bring in a Bill to amend the ft Toll-gate Act, 1867." .