Provincial Coucil.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume 15, Issue 796, 16 June 1870, Page 2

Provincial Coucil.

WEDNESDAY, JUNE S, 1870. The Council met at the usual hour, arid the minutes of the last meeting were read and confinned. Mr Obmond moved for leave to intro-? duce a Credit Bill. The object of this bill was merely to give effect to the resolutions passed yesterday. —The bill was introduced read a firsttfime, ordered to be printed, and the second reading made an order of the day for Thursday. Mr Okmond, in pursuance of notice, moved — That this Council authorises the Superintendent tp complete the purchase of the block of land known as the Waikahu Block, containing about thirty acres, and to pay for the same, out of the amount available uuder the Loan Acts for the purchase of native lands. —This land adjoined the Ngaruroroßridge, on the Napier side. The land had been under negociation, and his predecessor had, years ago, made some small advances to one of the native proprietors. He considered it desirable to appropriate some of the £4OO left of the loan for the purchase of this land- One reason why he wished to purchase this land would appear in the next resolution oh the paper, The most valuable part of the land could be sold to repay the expense of the purchase, and the remainder would be particularly suitable fpr a Botanical Reserve. —Mr St/xton; thought the purchase very advisable if the, block could be secured; but he doubted whether this could be done, for he believed other parties were in treaty fur it. He had taken the trouble since notice was given of this motion, to look for documents in the Registry Office, referring to this block of land and the only one there was a receipt for <£LQ by one of the native owners. This document was unwitnessed, and being signed by one owner out often, he thought did not give the Go--vernment any claim. —Mr Tanner asked if it was the block under dispute between Mi' Oiffard and the natives.—Mr Caklyoi? thought if this was not the best site that

could bo obtained, it was superior to the beat in the town. At any rate, a section; adjacent to the cemetery would not be the best place for public amusement. —Col. Lambeet would support the motion. If the member fur the town knew of any ob- 1 stacle to the purchase, he should tell the

Council plainly what it was. —Mr SUTTON said that all he was aware of was, that a gentleman had some claim on the land, and that if the Government sought to pur-j chase it, ihey might fee a\s.t by legal proceedings. Mr A'Deane should support the motion. The Province had already suffered too much through delicacv in dealing with laud which private individuals had their eye upon. —Agreed to. Mr Ormond, in pursuance of notice, mctfwd.,— Tliafc this Council authorises the Superintendent to appropriate ten acres of the Waikahu Block, when purchased, to the purposes of a Botanical lleserve. —Agreed to. Mr A'Deine, in pursuance of notice, moved Fur leave to bring in a Bill to convey Town Section No. 11l to Trusteees (for the purpose of builflinir a Masonic Hall), in accordance with a resolution of .this Council of the 11th April, 18ii3. —He merely asked the Council to gire effect to a resolution passed in an earli.r' session by a large majority. It was unnecessary for him to speak in favor of the Freemasons, a body whose large and comprehensive charities were so well known as not to require comment. The Council should not hesitate in earring out their (former Resolution..—M* Kennedy seconded the motion, which he considered a mere act. of justice. At the same time that the Oddfellows got their land, a similar grant was made to the Freemasons, and it only required the ratification of the Council, in the form of au Act. Both these bodies wore charitable societies, but whereas the Oddfellows were°a kind of insurance company, the Freemasons were not. —Mr Tanner would like to hear some better argument than this advanced before the Council voted them a grant of land. He had no doubt but that the Freemasons were a very charitable body; but he believed that their charity was confined to their own order—that in fact it began at home and glided there. Tue fact of their being ■very charitable to each other was no ground for them to ask for a grant of land from the outside public. Ho would op pose the motion on the principle that a private body had no right to ask for a public grant ; and moreover, he believed that if they wanted a site, they .could very wel. ulf..-i-d to buy one.—Mr Caulyon said that the Freemasons were as much a private body us any other club. This case wasdif fereiit i'.om that of the Oddfellows, who had erected a valuable public building. The Council hud no guarantee that any public benefit would arise from making this grant to the Masonic confederacy ; who, besides, were quite wealthy enough to pa,\ for the land. The public would be very foolish to subsidise them private bodies of whom they knew so little. Of the Oddfellows he knew a little, and he could in form the Council that their business consisted piaj.uly of singing comic songs and drinking beer. ;He hoped the Council would not pass this motion. If they did there would be no limit to applications of this nature. Col. Lambert would oppose this motion, as he opposed the original resolution. He knew every mason would vote for it, as they had all voted on another occasion ; but he hoped no other members would.. Of the two bodies who had been mentioned, the Oddfellows had much the best claim. They were, as a rule, men o! Jess means than the Freemasons, and ther< was nothing secret about them. The Hawke's Bay Club had quite as good a claim as the masons. He could not conceive how a gentleman could ask the Council for a site from which the public would be shut out and would derive no advantage. The Council would not be doing their duty if they gave away public property in this way, and he, for one, would not support any such job.—Mr Newton said on looking over the old Blue Book he he found that the gentlemen who voted for the former resolution were, with one exception, masons; and he believed the present question would be decided according as the masons were, in the majority or not. He could not understand a body of gentlemen so numerous and respectable coming belore the Cowncilinformdpauperis, asking for a grant to which they had no claim It was useless to call it a public purpose. The grant once made, the public would have no right interfere. By-and-by would arise bodies of Druids, Fores tors,

&c, who would make similar applications, and point to this as a precedent. The Council had made a mistake in the matter of the grant to the Oddfellows, but that was no reason why they should repeat it.— Mr Ferabd asked if Freemasons were entilled to vote on thin question —it appeared

to him to be one in which they had a direct interest.—Mr Caiilyon said tiny had not. In a question which once came before the General Assembly respecting the amount of fees on conveyances, the Speaker prohibited all barristers from voting.—The Speaker said he was about to ruio that members of the order were not qualified to vote, and the member for Te Aute had supplied him with a very aot precedent.—Mr KINROSS was a Freemason, and would insiss upon his right to vote. If this had boon the first time the matter had been brought up, he would have opposed the vote, but it was only to give effect to a previous resolution. As for the wealthy ,condition of the Napier lodge, he very much doubted it; he believed on the contrary, that they were rather embarrassed.—Mr Buchanan agreed with what had been said about the impropriety of these grants. He supported a similar application from the Oddfellows on the one ground that they had gone to the expense of electing a hall on the faith of the resolution of the Council, but that argument could not be used in this case. The argument that the Council having once affirmed a vote, were bound in honor to carry it out, seemed a fair one, but if admitted in all cases—as it must be if admitted at all—would place the Council in a difficult position. For instauce, turning to the record of proceedings for 1864, he found that a resolution was passed to grant a site for a Club-house, and every argument used in favor of the one could be used with equal justice for the other. The parallel was perfect —even to the fact of both institutions being in distre-sed circumstances.—Mr Paesons would vote against the resolution, it would be an improper use of public money.—The Speaker hid a very high opinion of the Freemasons —had he not been afr-iid of the gridiron he might have been a mason long ago — but he must repeat his ruling that they could not vote on the present question. It was for the same reason as if the Council consisted of publicans, they wo Id not be competent to pass a licensing ordinance. He did not know which of the members were masons, but would trust to their honor in the matter.—Mr A'Deane said this question had not been raised in the matter of the grant to the Oddfellows, and he did not think it fair—he did not think it generous —to raise it. now. As to public advantage, the public had the advantage of the Masonic Hall long before the Oddfellows' Hall was built. The action of the numbers in this matter had not been generous or nice. In many questions before the Council two-thirds of the members were aa directly interested as the ma sous were in thi*. He regretted that this subject had taken up so much of the time of the Council ;' but as he saw no chance of carrying his motion, he a»ked permission to withdraw it.—Mr Carlton objected to the withdrawal. He would prefer a decided negative, in order that no dangerous precedent might be established. —The motion was negatived on the voices. His Honoe read the opinion of the Provincial Solicitor on the Constabulary Force Ordinance of New Munster. It was to the effect that the law could only have effect in a small portion of the Pro vince, and there only on being proclaimed t>y the Governor. Such proclamation had never been made; the act wan practically obsolete; and the Council would do well in extracting and re-enacting such portions as they considered necessary. —In accordance with this advice, Mr Oemond brought in a bill to amend the Police Act; containing clauses selected from the old ordinance. The bill was read a first time, ordered to be printed, and the second reading ordered for Friday.

His Honob laid on the table a further return of persons who had paid tha Education Rate. The Council went into Committee on the Licensing Act, and Mr Feeaed withdrew his proposed clause imposing a fine on drunkenness, on the understanding that it should be inserted in the Police Act. Mr Feeaed moved the insertion of a clause prohibiting the payment of wages in a public-house. —Mr Caelyon said this was not only a useless clause, but one utterly impossible to carry into effect. — Mr Tanner also considered it impracti-cable,-~-Negatived.

Mi* F.EUARD moved the insertion of a clause under which bush licences might be granted.—Mr Caelyojs* said this was tlie most mischievous clause of the old act, and the great point gained in the present amendment: act was that all relating to bu*h licences had been omitted. —The clause was carried after some discussion in an amended form, a provision being in* serted on the motion ot Mr Sutjgn, that no bush licence should be granted to any house withia ten miles of a regularly licensed house.

Mr Carlyok - objected to an alteration, made in bis absence, on the motion of a memb.er for the town interested in the sale of liquor (Mr Sutton) who had struck out the words "of any one sort," after the permission to storekeepers to sell two gallons of liquor. By this mean 3 a person might go to a store and get a bottle of port, a bottle of sherry, and make up the remainder by a dozen of stout, if he wished j which would be an unjustifiable invasion of the privileges of the licensed victuallers. He moved the re-insertion of the words. — Mr Sutton said this privilege had been granted by the Distillery Ordinance ; a G-eneral Government act which it was not competent for the Council to alter. Storekeepers had to pay an annual licence of £1 for the privihge —Mr Rhodes said it the licence was £lO he should eonsidei this a step in the right direction. He believed in free-trade in grog, so long as the sellers paid a licence fee. Families in the country could then get a bottle oi liquor of good quality at the stores, instead of the adulterated filth sold at public houses. —Mr Suitor would not object to pay a £LO licence. —Mr Carlyon's amend ment was negatived. .After some further discussion the Committee adjourned to 7.30 p.m.

On resuming Mr Caelyon proposed the withdrawal of the whole bill.—Mr TANNEE considered the proposal preposterous, after the days and nights devoted to it by the Council. —Mr Buchanan would support the withdrawal, if pivssod. The question might well be remitted to another Council. Col. La MB BUT was also willing to support the withdrawal. —Mr Caelyon said that the old law certainly required amend ment—there was no one in the room who had not evaded it again and again ; but this bill had been so tampered with that instead of being a model for other provinces it was an absurdity. An unsuccess ful attempt was made to shelve the bill. and the Committee reported progress, and adjourned to next sitting-clay.

In the absence of the Speaker, who was indisposed, Mr Buchanan was voted to the chair.

The Compulsory Land Taking Eegulations were read a second time. The Diversion of Roads bill was read a third time and passed. In committee on the Impounding Act Mr Kennedy's motion limiting its operation was negatived, and a clause inserted authorizing a poundkeeper under certain restrictions, to destroy entire horses. Power was also given to private persons to destroy pigs and goats trespassing on their property. The opinion of the Provincial Solicitor on the Sheep and Scab bill was read, and the bill was read a third time and passed. The Council adjourned at 10.10 p.m.

THURSDAY, JUNE 9, IS7O. The Council met at the usual hour. The Botanical Keserve bill was withdrawn. The Clyde Public Hall bill was read a third time and passed. The Highways Traffic bill was withdrawn, in order that its provisions might be incorporated with the Police Act. The Credit bill was read a second, time, committed, and reported to the Speaker. In committee on the Licensing bill, Mr Cuilyon protested against it. The bill was now so mu ilated that if it came into force it would virtually do away with all licences ; the publicans would no longer keep public-houses, but would open stores [Mr Tannek: And a good thing too.] The effect would be that storekeepers and anyone else who liked to pay £1 per annum would have all -the privileges and profits of a publican with out responsibility, and we should get rid of our hotels altogether. Under this bill, not only could a person buy as many kinds of liquor as he liked in the two gallons, but could take away a wine glassful at a time if he ohose. —The bill was* reported to the Speaker.

Mr Sutton moved the second reading of the Education Rate Repeal bill. The old apt was passed by the Council on the

distinct understanding that it was to be merely a tuuiparary measure-; on that ground only was it assented to, and it was most unjus 4 " and unpopular. If it had been fair the public would never have objected to it. The toll gate was oppressive to people using the road ; but it had nover caused the dissatisfaction that this act had done.—Mr A'Deane. with some' reluctance seconded the motion. He had pledged himself to hid constituents to endeavor to obtain the repeal of the Ed oca-, tion Act.—Mr Cas lyon said the old Act was imperfect and o\ jectunable enough, but he should oppose its repeal until some-; thing better was provided. —Mr Osmond said a similar rate was enforced in nearly every Province in the Colony. If this bij.l was passed, nearly all the schools in the province would have to be shut up. fie moved as an amendment that the bi:l be read a second time that day six months —Col. Lambekt would not like to see the schools closed. He trusted the General Government would take the matter i;i hand. He could n<;t support the repeal oi the bill, —Amendment agreed to. The Council adjourue'd to 7.3 J p.m.

On resuming, Mr A'Deane was appointed Chairman of Commiitees pro tern., and the house went into committee on the Compulsory Land Taking Regulations, which were considered and reported to the Speaker. The Schools hill was withdrawn.

In committee of Supply, Mr OaBXYOH moved the re-committal of the item, " Payment of Country Members," with a view to its being struck out. He had always opposed it on principle, and if country members got no pay they would sit more hours in the day, and not indulge in so much useless talk. Some fool in the English House of Commons once proposed the payment of members j and one of the news papers remarked that it would be a fatal clay for England when that body voted themselves salaries. —Motion negatived on a division—ayes, Messrs Carlyon, Eerard, and Sutton,

The Estimates vfere passed and reported to the Speaker, and the Council adjourned to the nexi sitting day.

FRIDAY, JUNE 10, 1870. The Council met at the usual hour. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed.

Mr Dolbel, in pursuance of notice, moved—

That in the opinion of this Council that on considering the report laid on the table by his Honor the Superintendent that there remained an unexpended balance of E-i-10 (is Gd from the Loan, out of which the sum of £2BO was voted and appropriated by the Loan Amendment Act, to erect a bridge over the Waitaha Creek, and that a resolution of this Council cannot over-ride the Loan Amendment Act; this Couucil is of opinion that the Government is bound to expend the said sum of £2OO for the erection of that bridge, according to the appropriation of the said Loan Amendment Act,

I —He had no wish to embarrass the Government, but thought the Council would with him that they were bound to carryout their former act. When the £l5O was voted for the bridge—a very insuiOcient sum —it was supposed that there were not further funds ; but his Honor the Superin tendent had since laid a return on the table, showing that £4OJ of the loan still remained —Mr A'Deang seconded the motion pro foi'mcc. Hethoughtthe moverinjadicious in bringing forward this resolution—it might result in his losing the vote he had already obtained. —Mr Okjlond had already explained that this money was required for the purchase of a block of land near the town. The creek was neither worse nor better than hundreds of others in the Province, but it happened to be the hobby of the member for Mohaka. The money had ten times better be spent on the road.—Mr Buchanan would support the motion. The amount already voted was insufficient, and for a permanent structure they would require the whole £260. From his own knowledge he could state that the creek was exceedingly bad and dangerous. —Mr Kennedy had never seen the creek, and did not intend to do so. He concluded it must be very bad, from the indefatigable manner in which the member for Mohaka b"ought up the subject, year after year. There was a certain amount of justice in the application, and he should support the motion.—After some further discussion, the motion was carried on the following division:—Ayes, Messrs Buchanan, Dolbel, Ferard, Kennedy, Parsons, Sutton j Noes, Messrs A'Deane, Carlyon, Jfewton, Ormond, Wood. The Council went into committee on the Impounding bill, and certain amendments having been made, it was reported to the Speaker*

Capt. Russell, (who had entered witli Messrs Tanner and Lambert while ib* house was in eommittce) moved the suspension of the necessary standing order* in order to rescind the resolution just passed on the motion of Mr I'olbol. The motion had been passed in a thin house, and would never have been assented to had all the members been present. — did not think it was competent for the Council to rescind a resolution in this manner. At any rate, he hoped the Council would refuse to stultify itself by ■3O doing.—The motion was agreed to on the following division: —Ayes, Messrs . A'Deane, Carlyon, Lambert, Newton, Ormond, Ehodes, Russell, Tanner ; Noes,, j Messrs Buchanan, Dolbel, Ferard, Wood, i Kennedy, and Parsons. Captain Bussell then moved—

That the Resolution on the Order Paper, in the name of Mr Dolbel, and affirmed by the Coiumil, be now rescinded. —Mr Sutton would vote against this motion. . Last session the late Superintendent distinctly promised the Council that this bridge should be built. No other item had like this been placed year after year, on the estimates, and the Council, in passing the resolution, had done a simple act o! justice. If this present proceeding were taken as a precedent, the Council would be liable at any time to have a day's work reversed by the entrance of one or two members.—Mr Feeaud said the Council would soon be unable to conduct business at all. Whenever a close division occurred, would be watching their opportunity'until one or two of the majority had turned their backs, and then suspend the standing orders and reverse all that had been done. He was ashamed of this present exhibition ; and would not have believed it possible to have occurred in any assembly under representative institutions. If members did not appear in their places until 4 p.m., it was their ow u fault. —Mr tiHODES *>aid the same, thing had been done in every Provincial Council in the Colony.—Mr Newton could s?e nothing for the members to be ashamed of. It was only proposed to reverse an act of flagrant injustic—Mr OuaroND would explain the position of the balance of the loan. Under the Loan Appropriation Act. the money was set apart under various departments. The amount appropriated for roads and bridges, of which the itemin 'question formed a part, had all been spent, and the only head under which a balance remained was that of purchase of Native Lands. Therefore, by applying any jjortion of this to the Waitaha Bridge, they would not be carrying out the Act, but violating ic—Col. Lambert regretted Mis absence when this vote was taken; he K ad a great objection to such a course as was now being pursued, but did not think it anything to be ashamed of.—Mr Dolbel said the present action was very unfair. The members who came late hid no one but themselves to blame. —Mr Wood had opposed the original motion, but; could not be a party to the Council stultifying itself by reversing a deliberate resolu'ion, to satisfy members who eame late, —Mr Buchanan had consistently opposed this bridge, year after year; but as the Council so repeatedly affirmed its necessity, he bowed to their decision. He had never in this Council seen a question re-opened in the short and summary manner attempted today, and he cjuld only make allowance on account of the inexperience of the mover. He agreed with the member for Havelock that the Council would stultify itself if it passed the present motion. He would now move the previous question.—The previous question being carried, the motion was pub and agreed to on a similar division to the one last recorded. —A few moments after the division had been taken, Mr Kinross entered the Chamber.

The Police bill, after being considerably modified and amended in committee, was veported to the Speaker. The Impounding Amendment bill was read a third time and passed.

The Credit bill was read a third time and passed. The Incensing bill, after another protest by Mr was read a third time and passed. The Compulsory Land Taking Order's were read a third time and passed. The Polrfee Amendment bill was read a third time hud passed. The Appropriation bill was,read a second time, committee, reported to the Speaker, read a third time, and passedHis Honor said that the business of the session being now completed, it only remained fa- him to discharge the honorable gentlemen, thanking them for the careful consideration they had bestowed on the business before them. They had tried this session to carry on the business of the Province without an Executive, and he thought the experiment had been a successful one. The Council had worked with unanimity and without discord, and the example they had set this session would no doubt be followed in other parts of the Colony. When he accepted office he told the Council he only took it for a limited time and for a specific purpose. He hoped that when they met again that object would have been carried out, and he would be happy to hand over the government to hid successor. —He now declared the Council prorogued,