Provincial Council.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume 15, Issue 795, 13 June 1870, Page 2

Provincial Council.

TUESDAY, JUNE 7, 1870. [Proceedings of this day continued from our last.] The Committee then went into the postponed item, "Grant-in-aid —Eoad from Meanee to Little Bush, £200." Mr Or mond said the condition of this road had been spoken of before. The river was threatening to form a channel towards the Waitaugi creek, and if this tendency was not checked, very probably the Papaknra settlers would before long be cut off entirely from communication with Napier. It was purposed to raise the height of the whole road from the bridge to the Little Bush, which appeared to be the only plan that would prevent the river from taking this direction. The amount estimated was far from sufficient for the work, and would require to be largely supplemented by the settlers themselves. If this work were undertaken, the Meanee settlers would also have to raise the bank on their side of the river.-—Mr Cablyon wanted to know if another £IOO could not be granted to the Patangata settlers. They would require more than £3OO ; but they were willing to find the rest out of their own pockets, and take the matter : nto their own hands, without reference to the Provincial Engineer. He (Mr C.) had lost all faith in that gentleman, who the other day had estimated the cost of a brick safe at £IOO, when Mr Lindsay would undertake to, build a brick room for £65. He believed that when the Superintendent did not wish any work undertaken, he went to the Provincial Engineer, tipped him the wink, and asked him to estimate its probable expense. They were now proposing to spend more money in the Meanee district —let them in equity find some for the Patangata settlors. It was useless to say the Waipawa could not be turned —the settlers, if another £IOO were granted, would do it themselves—they were really self-reliant As for this proposed raising of the Meanee bank; some people, who knew as much about the subject as the Provincial Engineer, believed a very probable effect wou'd be, in time of floods, to throw the whole of the water into the township, somewhere about the Meanee Hotel—thus rendering the Province liable to endless actionns .for damages.—His Honor read the following letter on the subject from the Provincial Engineer : Provincial Engineer's Office, Napier, June 3, 1870.

Sir, —I have the honor to state that, on taking the levels where the Waipawa river turns off towards the llomewood run, I find that the dam which would he necessary to prevent the river breaking through that way in floods, in case it should be diverted back to its present channel, would be too large an undertaking to make it worth considering, as it would cost at least £2.500. I also find that to make a proper hridge at Patangata would cost at lenst £1,500. I would thereCore recommend that Mr Ross's suggestion should be carried out, that is, to make the south approach to the bridge as stable as possible, allowing the water in floods to run over it, and to strengthen the bridge by driving larger piles. The £2OO proposed on the estimates will be sufficient for this. I have the honor, &c,

James Rochfort. Provincial Engineer. —The Council would see that he had no course but to recommend them to act in accordance with the opinion of their special adviser.—Mr Buchanan was as a rule inclined to defer to professional men j but there were times when their opinions might very fairly be diverged from. In the Province of Canterbury was a very troublesome river called the Rakaia, and the problem of bridging this river had baffled the best engineering skill in the Province. The work had, however, been cheaply and effectually done by a settler — neither an architect nor an engineer, but a weaver —who had built a light bridge supported on olusters of gas-pipes, driven into the river-bed, and securely braced together. We could not boast a weaver of this kind in our own province, but he be lieved that a proper bridge at Patangata could be built for much less than £1,500. —Mr Cabxyon said that in the Hutt district the Government began tampering with the river banks, and the result was that when the next flood occurred, far more damage was dono than if they had let it alone. He (Mr C.) was retained in one of the actions for damages by a pro~ prietor who had lost many acres of valuable land ; but had to drop? the case, as he found the plaintiff had been chairman at the meeting which requested the Government to meddle with the river. This year the Council was asked to protect one side of the river ; if they did so, next year they must protect the opposite side. —Mr Tifpen palled attention to the map before the Council, showing the levels of the Ahuriri plains, which showed that so sure as this was v done, in time of flood the

whole overflow of the Ngaruroro would be turned into the Tutaekuri, Meauee would be inundated, and we should have such a flood as at present we had no idea of. About fifteen chains from the Meanee Bridge, the land was a foot below the water* lev I.—Mr Persons denied the inference that all this damage would be occasioned. If the Government did not raise the road people would be forced to protect their own land.—Mr A'Deane, with his limited knowledge of the district, had been inclined to oppose the grant, but after the explanation of the member for the Country Districts [Mr Tiffen] he should certainly do so. Very few engineers could deal with rivers and tidal waters 5 it was the highest branch of their art. He was in-, the first Council of Hawke's Bay, and was one of the two or three members who opposed what were called the Harbor Improvements beiug undertaken. Since then at least £30,000 had been spent on the harbor, and thejjff Iron Pot was considerably worse than when they He trusted that the Council would pause before spending the Provincial funds to do damage in other directions.—Capt. Russell must oppose the motion. He had been shut in Mr Cooper's house during a heavy flood, and had some idea what it was like. £2,000 would not carry out the proposed work, and if done, its effect would be to submerge the whole country on the Meanee side of the bridge. In making a bank it was necessary to have some tenacious substance to embank with j but this road to the Little Bush was a mere sandy waste, and in rainy weather a quagmire. They might as well throw the money into the river.— Mr Kennedy was satisfied that if the overflow of the river was stopped in the place proposed, Meanee would be swept away. He thought that chain bridges were the only ones suitable for rivers like the Meanee. Pile bridges offered too much resistance to the currents. —Mr Tanner said one proprietor in the neighborhood told him he was willing to let the evil work its own cure, finding that each successive flood raised the level of his land. Ho agreed with the member for Waimarama that nothing could stem the torrent caused by the overflow of the two rivers on these plains.—Mr Parsons said that below the sand there was quite sufficient clay to coat the work and hold it together. ' The road could be raised to the required height for about £BOO, and the sum asked for was a mere grant-in-aid. If something was not done now, it would cost the Government double in future. —Mr Kinross supposed that this was only to make the road fit for traffic to be carried on in time of floods. As it would also prevent the river changing its course, and entailing great expense, he should support the motion. It would be better to take a stitch in time.—Capt. Russell said the last speaker mentioned a stitch in time. To his mind it seemed more like putting a new patch on an old garment, whereby, if his memory served

him correctly, the rent was made worse.— Mr Tanner asked if there was not a good road already by way of Pakowhai. He should have been glad to support the motion if he thought any permanent good would result; but any embankment they would make would be swept away by the first flood. —Col. Lambert had almost promised his support to the motion before the committee; but after the explanations which had been given, he must now oppose it. His Honor would be liable for any damage occasioned by the work, and the Council should pause before sanctioning a work which mjght inundate Meanee . without benefitting the settlers onother side. —Mr Rhodes said it was time some variety was introduced into the discussion. The road to Waimarama was now fenced in, and some expenditure was required to open the road in another direction. He had not brought this up before, because he was told there were no funds, but if this were passed, he should certainly move for £2,00 as a grant-in-aid of the Waimarama road. At present all the drays had to come by way of Havelock. He hoped this little digression would assist the Council in coming to a conclusion. He believed nature would have its course with mountain torrents, and had no hesitation in saying that it would require the whole fee-simple of the Meanee plains to n strain the river.—The motion was negatived on adivision, Messrs Ormond, Sutton, Dolbel 3 and Parsons being the

only ayes. The item of £2OO for strengthening the. Patangata bridge was agreed to. Progress was reported, and the committee to next sitting day.

The Council then' adjourned to 7.30 p.m. On the motion for adjournment Mr [Buchanan, without notice, asked his Honor if it was his intention to introduce a Representation Amendment Act this session. He would not press for an answer at once, hut would like to be informed when the Council re-assembled.

On the Council resuming, his Honob in reply said that the subject was one which required great care. Ho had not had time to prepare such a measure, and thought the matter might bo left with ad vantage to the next Council.

Mr Dolbel moved the second reading of the Cattle Trespass and Impounding Act, which was agreed to on a division, Mr Carlyon beiDg the only opposing member.

The bill was then committed. Mr Carlyon said that however much members might admire the versatility of gen jus of the member who produced the hill now before them, it was not fair to the Council to ask them to pass such a production. He should certainly oppose it in every possible manner if it was intended to apply to the whole Province. If, however, as had been suggested, its operation was to be confined to Napier, Clive, and Meanee, he would leave the question in the hands of the members representing those districts.—Mr Tiefen did not think we wanted another amendment Act. The one passed last session cost the Province a great deal of money, for it occupied the Council day after day, and night after night. It would be well to report progress, which would be the simplest way of getting rid of the bill.—Mr Cablyon said it was not fair to the Council to take its time up with so ridiculous a measure. He would move that the Chairman do report progress.—Mr Dolbel said he knew perfectly well what he was about in bringing in this Act. He wanted to reduce the poundkeepers' fees, and the member for Te Aute, who was interested, either directly or indirectly, in a pound, did not wish this done.—The motion that the Chairman do report progress was negatived on a division.—Mr Kennedy proposed that the operation of the bill should be confined to a radius of fifteen miles from the Government buildings. — Col. Laubkbt said too many Acts were passed in this Province. It was a calamity to a country to have its laws changed so often. No man could tell what the law was. He should like to see the district constables in charge of the pounds..—Mr Caklyon said such a plan could never succeed. What would happen if a constable was juat starting, armed wi;h a warrant, in pursuit of a criminal, and somebody brought him down a wild cattle to look after ? The poundkeeper or his ageii must be on the premises the whole yean and no district constable could do that. After some further discussion the Chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again on Wednesday.

The Council then went into committee on the Licensing Act.—Mr Ferard moved the insertion of a clause prohibiting gambling, similar to the one in the existing Act.—Mr Carlyon said all the Acts in the statute book, provincial or general, would not prevent him gambling in a publichouse if he chose to do so, All the time the law had been in force he had never known an information laid or a magistrate who would convict. Some of the members liked a game of whist at the Club. He could understand a law prohibiting whist; but not one which prohibited it in one house more than another. If he chose to gamble he would play with counters, ard trust to the honor and integrity of thosu with whom he was playing. It was no use to re-enact laws which had never been carried out since this was a country. It might lead to lying and perjury, and all kinds of evil, and no earthly good would be effected. — Mr Sutton thought the clause too stringent. He was iu favor of a prohibition of gambling, but should oppose the present proposal as impracticable. Colonel Lambert would support the clause. Something of the kind was absolutely required for the protection of the youth of this place. From his English papers lie saw that deputations waited almost daily on the Home Secretary in reference to public-houses. That the Home Government intended above all things to secure the "ood government of these houses was shown by the reply of Mr Bruce to one of the deputations, which he read to the Council. It was no argument against a law that the member for Te Aute would manage to evade it.—The clause was inserted on a division,

Mr Ferard moved the insertion of another clause from the existing Act, which provided that any person who had been convicted of smuggling was disqualified from keeping a public-house.—Mr CariiYON said this was another old useless clause that they ought to be glad to get rid of. A man who had suffered conviction and punishment was considered in law to be reformed.—Mr Tanner said that in England it was not uncommon for exprizefighters to keep public-houses ; there was no law against that, and there was not much difference between them and smugglers. If the private character of men holding licences were inquired into, many of them would be found to have been guilty of worse things than smuggling.—-Mr Kennedy said he believed the reason for this law was that a smuggler was supposed to have generally a connexion in that line, and that a public-house would give him great facilities for the secreting and disposal of smuggled goods. He did not, however, think the law was of much use. —Mr Feeaed thought it was only fair to the Council to let them know how the Acts had been al tered. They were led to believe that this was merely a consolidation bill, but the old Acts seemed to have been altered in every direction at the suggestiou of the member for Te Aute. It was very desirable that the committee should know from his Honor the Superintendent, the real position of the Act. —His Honor said that the bill, as originally drafted and printed, was a mere consolidation Act; but the member for Te Aute took many objections to it in that form, the result of which was that that gentleman and himself (Mr 0.) had taken it in hand, and worked out the bill as brought before the Council, for which they were jointly responsible. —Mr Carlton did not know how the word "consolidate" got into the bill. In the printer's copy he wrote "repeal," —Colonel Lambeet thought some such guarantee as that in the proposed clause was absolutely necessary. He was sorry to hear the member for Te Aute class prizefighters with such improper characters as smugglers. He felt much obliged to the member for the town for bringing these omitted clauses before the attention of the Council.— Clause adopted on a division. Mr Feeaed would now propose another omitted clause—that which made drunkenness a punishable offence. —Mr Caelyon said this was fully provided for in the old Constabulary Force Ordinance. —Mr Feeaed should have supposed that the members his learned friend would have been the last to fall into such an error. The old law he mentioned was only in force in the old Province of New Munster, and there only in districts proclaimed by the Governor. Now nearly all Hawke's Bay was beyond the range of this law, as the northern boundary of New Munster was just a little north of Porangahau. Moreover, the Act in question had never been proclaimed, even in that distsict. Therefore if we omitted the clause in the Licensing Act making drunkenness a penal offence, we should actually have no law against drunkenness in the Province. —Mr Caelyon said the member for the town was trying to get in another complex and unnecessary provision. If the old Constabulary Ordinance was not in force in this Province all its useful clauses could be adopted by the Council and passed as a local Act. The proposed clause belonged to a Police Act properly, not a Licensing Act, —Mr Tannee asked under what Act magistrates at present convicted people of drunkenness. — Mr Feeaed : Under the Licensing ordinance now in force, decided ly.—Mr Tanneh said if this was the case, such a clause was very necessary ; but he agreed with his learned colleague that it was more suited to a Police Act.—Colonel Lambeet said the Council appeared to be g etting out of its depth in trying to pas this bill when they had a very good one already.—His Honor said this bill had been framed in consequence of the very general desire last session that these Acts should be consolidated.—Col. Lambeet thought they had better fall back on the old Act, if in their amendment Act they left the law in such a state that a drunkard could not be convicted.— Mr Tanner quite agreed with the last speaker that they would have been better with the old Acts. Any member who really consoli dated those Acts would certainly be entitled to the thanks of the country. He thought the chairman should report progress. —Mr Caelyon objected. Let them go on with the rest of the bill. It was only half-past nine, and they had done nothing all day. There would be more I,amendments to-morrow. —Mr Rhodes said

the act seemed purely a scissors-and-paste production. They had better have brought in all the acts together—one on the eni of the other—than put in clause after clause by way of amendment. They were getting the act into a thorough state of confusion. We had got on very well with the old acts, ;ind could afford to leave the consolidation to another year. He moved that the chairmau report progress. —Mr Caelyon said that some good had been done in compressing an act of seventy clauses into one of thirty.—Mr Sutton said that a consolidation bill was necessary, for he had never been able to find all the licensing acts. One of those now in force had never been printed* and he believed that there were only one or two copies extant.—Mr Feraed had made no alteration in the clauses he had moved He thought those members who introduced the bid owed it to the Council to fully explain in what way they had altered the existing Acts. He had still Borne more very useful clauses from the old Act to move—one, in particular, prohibiting the payment of wages in public houses, and another providing a penalty for allowing drink to be sold within prohibited hours. He gave notice of these amendments and moved that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again on next sitting day but one.—Mr Caelyon objected. He had to go the Waipawa Court on that day. He thought the country members received too much pay if they could not sit till 10 o'clock. —Mr Kennedy said that as this Act professed to consolidate the law, and left out some of the most important clauses ; it was only right that more time should be given for* its consideration.— The Chairman reported progress and asked leave to sit again on Wednesday. The Clyde Public Hall Bill and the Sheep and Scab Bill were passed through committee and reported to the Speaker. The Council adjourned at 10.10 p.m.