PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume 13, Issue 684, 24 May 1869, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

TUESDAY, MAY 18, 1859, MR BODDINGTON'S PETITION.

[Procceedings continued from our last issue.]

Mr Carlyon : I shall not support you if you can't fulfil your duties in a better manner.

Mr Tanner said that before concluding he must give the member for Clive credit for the candid manner in which he had taken a share of the blame upon himself. Mr Carlyon : If the Speaker will not pay attention to the objections, of members he may expect interruptions. T protest against my colleague's speech. One or two members here left the Chamber.

Mr Carlyon : I will bring forward a molion that the Council appoint a new Speaker if this goes on. It is perfectly monstrous the manner in vhich members are allowed to make two or three speeches. Lieut.-Col. Lambert asked what position the Council was now in 1 ? if there was any substantive motion before the house, or, if so, if it would be put or fall to the ground ? Mr Carlyon : Hear, hear.

The Speaker said the subject was " The adjourned consideration of Mr Boddington's petition." He had nothing to put to the Counoil, Lieut. Col. Lambert said that as it seemed to be the order of the day to talk about nothing, he would follow the example of the other memibers. Whose duty was it to see that Mr Boddington had two substantial sureties'? Was it the duty of the Superintendent ? the Provincial Solicitor ? or the Superintendent's Clerk 1 ? If the course suggested by the member for Clive were carried out, the precedent would be a bad one. In private life people did not usually allow the backer of a bill to escape when they could not get the money from the debtor; nor did they usually consider whether he could afford to bear the loss. The sureties muft have gone into the matter with their eyes open. Let the Council be very careful about instituting such a precedent. He quite went with the member for Waipawa —- Mr Carlyon : Who is the member for Waipawa 1 I don't know him. Lieut.-Col. Lambert : I stand corrected. The member for Te Aute—not the gentleman who has just interrupted me, but his colleague—a much more quiet and reasonable being. [Laughter.] He agreed with that gentleman that the money should be obtained from the sureties. Mr Carlyon did not at all under- ■ stand the meaning of the motion on the paper. Was there anything before the house, or were his remarks to be, like the admirable speech of the member for for Waipukurau, on the subject of nothing 1 As for the petition he (Mr C.) could have written ii in 3 lines:—"Youi petitioner became the lessee of the toll-gate, intending to pay the Government if it paid him; if not, to ask the Council to pay the Government for him." He would ask if in private life, in toll gate life, or any other kind of life, a man, after squandering his money, could ask his creditors not to fall back upon his sureties. If so, what was the use of sureties at all 1 He would take the toll-ga + e himself at that rate —get all the profits, and the Government pay all the losses, What member of that Council was there, however rich or influential, who would not take it on the same terms ? If he went and played a game of billiards he supposed the Council would call it gambling. If a man took a public-house and found it was not worth the license money —if he took a toll-gate at too high a ra te—it was a fair casefor the charity of the Council, and he was to be relieved from all the dirty little consequences. It was neither honest nor fair ; and what would become of the Province if any person who lost money by the Government was to have it made up to him in this manner? He objected to the principle altogether as being a profligate waste of the public money, and was; surprised at the member for Clive, who had biought forward three or four schemes of this kind.

Mr A'Deane said he had been

quite unable to follow the arguments; in this* matter, but from tho petition itself he could sea that the petitioner had had three month:- experience in, the dullest part of the year, which ought to have been sufficient to prevent him from making any serious error, As for the guarantee of the Provincial Engineer; supposing it was ever given, it was the duty of that officer to obtain as high a tender as possible —not, of course, by misrepresentation -but no one in their senses would be guided by this officer's estimate. Again, what amount of credit was due to the statements in the petition?—-they were quite as evidence. Mr Rhodes would not take up the time of the Council with his reply. The member for Hampden had made a mistake. During the three months previous to the tender for the year, the petitioner did not pay anything like the rate for which he afterwards tendered. He would now give notice of a substantive motion for next sitting-day.

IMMIGRATION DUES.

Mr Parsons moved— For a return of the outstanding promissory notes due on account of immigration, shewing the dates when the same became due, the names of the parties owing the same, and the amounts due by each individual. Mr Ferard hoped the. ret urn would also contain the names of those who guaranteed the promissory notes. Agreed to, PAPAKURA AND HIKUTOTO LEASES. Mr M'Lean ed— That, whereas clause 6 of the Papakura and Hikutoto Leasing Bill defines the mode in which the valuation of lands in these blocks shall be conducted and made, and further provides—" Such valuers or their umpires, however, in fixing the amount of such valuation shall not fix a less sum than the amount actually paid by the said Superintendent as the purchase money for the said parcel of land, together with the amount of interest thereon, at ten per centum per annum." And whereas, in the case of the land situate in the Hikutoto block, the total valuations made would not amount to the sum actually paid for the said land, this Council is of opinion that the Superintendent shall not complete the sale of auy of the lauds so insufficiently valued, and in the interests of the province shall cause a valuation of all the sections in the said block to be made, aud such prices affixed by the Government valuator as shall appear fair aud reasonable. And this Council is of opinion that, if necessary, this action shall be ratified by Act, —The valuation of some of ihe best land in these blocks was below the amount they had cost, and as the Government knew the Council would not sanction the sale at a loss, they had brought this resolution forward. He hoped the Council would see the justice of the measure Mr Tanner seconded the motion pro forma. The Council had at pre- ; sent no data to work upon, and he ' did not see how they could settle this question unless detailed returns were laid before them. Lieut.-Col. Lambebi' made a few remarks to the same effect. Mr Ormond said that the object of the Government was to prevent public money being spent for the benefit of a few indisiduals. Perhaps the '> question had better not be entered ' into till the returns were prepared. After a little further discussion, the debate was adjourned to next sitting-day. GRANT OF LAND TO MR W. R. RUSSELL. The Speaker : The member for Te Aute is in possession of the house to move — The adjourned motion in reference to the grant. ing of 800 acres to "VV. R. Russell, Esq. Mr Carlton ; "Well, and what am I to do? After some consideration, Mr Ferard moved—■ That the Commissioner of Crown Lands be called to the bar of this house and examined. Mr Buchanan said that before that was put he would suggest the substitution of the word " table " for ü baiy' inasmuch as there was no bar, and the word had a strong legal significance. Mr Ferard did not objeot to the alteration. The-motion as amended was assented to; and the Commissioner of Crown Lands was called to the table. Mr Carlyon suggested that all iquestions to" the witness should be put through- the Speaker. -

f -Mr-BucHANAN said the present. tion of the Council was a most* wonted one—a course taken by l gislative, bodies only on jsions, and in "matters, of the'..grave, moments' The object of the menvL for the town would be fully attain and in a much better way,: by m eai of a select committee.Mr Ferard must rise to ordw This motion -was already carrier and he did iiot think it wasn o , competent to criticise it. He perfeotly ready to put the neces% questions. Mr Buchanan' would draw attea tion to the inconvenience of m procedure. If it was to be it would be competent for any ber to put questions, the interruption of the Speaker There would be no limit to the pro lixity of the proceedings ; a genera contest of questions would rise, am it would be almost impossible t< gather what was going oh. Mr Cari,yon said it was to \'ent this prolixity that he had pro posed that the questions should 1* put through the Speakeiv All hi could say was that if it was cornp e tent for every member of the Counci to put questions to the Commissionei of Crown Lands, that gentleman would have a very short nighty rest. [Laughter.] Mr Ferard then began the e* animation of Captain Carter as fol lows : What is your name ?—John Chi ton Lambton Carter. "What is your office ?—Comma sioner of Crown Lands. During what period have yon held that office?—From the M October, 1863, Have you in your possession any record of a land order to W. i, Russell, Esq, ?—Yes. Is the document produced, dated the 29th September, 1862, an signed by H. S. Tiifen, the original! —Yes. Mr H. S, TifFen was your prede cessor?—He was. Has this form for naval and military settlers' land orders been in m ever since you have been in that office I —lt has been always in use Mr Carlyon here began putting qixestions, and it became almost impossible to hear what was passing. Mr Buchanan moved— That the Commissioner of Crown Lands tt permitted to withdraw trom. the table. Agreed to, and Captain Carter withdrew. Mr Ferard strongly objeoted to the course just taken. The last motion was simply an attempt to shelve the discussion altogethei'. [No, no. The information required oould onlj be ascertained by direct questioning, and he (Mr F) had not asked a question that had not a direct bear ing on the subject. Mr Ormond understood the ok ject of the member for the Countrj Districts to be to relieve the Counci from its anomalous position, with J view of assisting the member for tie town to obtain ihe required informstion. They had seen how ill the scheme of examination by the Cowv cil had worked, and the information could be much more suitably & tained by a committee. Mr Carlyon said the object ofths Council was to elicit the truth, awl as the gentleman was here, let hi be examined. Mr Buchanan said it was full? evident that the examination by tb Council tended rather to embaraa than facilitate the business. w> whole proceeding was surrounds with so many difficulties that it *! rarely resorted to. The Council then proceeded w the orders of the day, WASTE LANDS COMMITTEE. Mr Ormond obtained leave * postpone the report of the Commit appointed to consider the working* the Waste Land Regulation Amend ment Act, till Th;irMda}% LIGHTHOUSE RESERVE BILL This bill-not being, printed, tlj second -reading: was postponed w Wednesday. t.o ■ ' EINANCE COMMITTEE. The report of the Finance C& miitee was postponed till WednesoaJ s The Council adjourned to W -p.m, . .. ..-i, .. ;: ; ; ,,*.: r ;~' \ |

- *sb7-Council met at 7.30 p.m. EDUCATION RATE REPEAL BILL. Mr SUTT.ON moved second ( ling of this. Ml When the! pjaucation Rates Bill was brought upi last V ear *' AVas fetmctly 3aid to ! ffi erelv a temporary measure—to remain in force one year. This was bis reason for bunging forward this bill a* wt ?M as * ne &9* * na * the" rate *a& P er ? ons having p a y £2 an 4 »£i who could ijl ,afford it. • . . - jyj r Pahsons seconded the motion. ]VJr A'Deane moved that the bill be read this day six months.,' , %v Tanner bad fully expected ( the member for the town to bring something forward in place of the ;1 rate; and could not agree with the', narrow view presented [; to the Council. He then reviewed ,< the difficulty of either an ad valorem i household rate or a poll-tax,! and said < that until something better was su'g- \ « eS ted, he must consider the present t ac t a permanent measure. %v Ferard supported the amend- , ujeDfc. There were cases of hardship ] under the present Act,, but it was ( impossible to frame, one perfectly satisfactory. , He thought the pre- 2 sent rate the easiest of collection and c the one which would work the fairest. \ If we did not support education we might fall into the posrioa of New \ South Wales, where for want of proper t schooling the sons.of respectable peo- 8 pie took to bushranging, and thought \ it a fine thing. "] The amendment was then carried r on the following division:— r Ayes, B—Messrs Tanner, Weston, t A'Deane, Carlyon, Ferard, Ormond, Rhodes, and M'Leau. a Noes, 6—Messrs Kennedy, Parsons, Buchanan, Locke, Sutton, and Dolbel. a SHEEP AND SCAB CONSOLIDATION. The Council went into Committee ° on the Sheep and Scab Consolidation a Act, after which it adjourned to next sitting-day. F

WEDNESDAY, MAY 19, 1869. The Council met at 3 p.m. Present, the Speaker and all the members except Col. Whitmore. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. PAPAKURA. AND HTKUTOTO RENTS. Mr Sutton asked the Government — What steps they have taken for the recovery of rents and road levies upon Papakura and Hikutoto Blocks, to 31st March, 1869. —He had been induced to put this question by a perusal of the returns laid on the table. The amount due on.these lands was about .£IOOO, some of the tenants being 18 months in arrear. He was surprised that the Government had allowed the opportunity of this session of the Supreme Court to pass without taking steps to recover this money. His Honor said that all steps short of actual legal proceedings had been taken by the Provincial Soliei tor to recover these rents. In many cases the tenants were bankrupts, and to sue them, would only be throwing money away. In these cases, the land, with all improvements, reverted to the Government. He was glad to have the opinion of the Council, and was quite prepared to cany it out by taking the necessary steps for the recovery of the rents. RENT OF RESERVES. Mr Sutton moved — For a return of all reserves let by the Govern - meat upon which the rent to March 31 is yet unpaid, showing in. each case the .description of the land and name of lessee, —This return would be useful as showing how much was available from the reserves set apart for educational purposes. Agreed to. FENCING AND PLANTING TREES. Mr Sutton asked the Government— ■■■ Oat of what vote of this House the expense incurred in fencing and planting trees in the vicinity of the Club and Athenaeum, has been paid, and by whose recommendation it. was done, and the total cost., t -—This was a pecuk'ar motion for a town member, -but he thought it fttrange that this expense should be; incurred when last session the Government said, they had the necessary .funds to carry out some of the. smallest votes of the /Council. He thought, too, that the prisoner* saight be better 2mploye,d.

Mr M'Lean said that the Govern'ment had considered that.it would ■be revy desirable, in this district :wrere timber was so scarce, to plant .trees, and intended to plant along the White-road. The Provincial Engineer had suggested that they should be planted as an experiment near the Athenaeum, and he regretted that the experiment had failed, —possibly because it was too late in: the season The return would be laid on the table.

MR BODDINGTON'S PETITION. Mr Rhodes moved—

That this Council having considered the case of the petitioner, E. Boddington, is of opinion that under the circumstance neither E. Boddington nor his sureties should be proceeded against for the whole amount for which they are liable, viz., ;£2BO ; but this Council considers that a penalty of £IOO should be inflicted, which will sufficiently mark the sense of this Council on the obligations of sureties ; and, farther, this Council desires to place on record that this action in reference to this case should not be a precedent.

—-This was a sequel to the debate of yesterday. He considered the amount mentioned amply sufficient to vindicate the law. Mr Sutton, taking into consideration the exceptional circumstances of the case, would support the motion, Mr Tanner could not understand the proposed reduction. He thought the Government should either claim all or none. He would propose the latter course, on several grounds. The whole affair was purely an experiment, and the Government would really lose nothing by it. He would move as an amendment—

That the tenderer and his sureties he freed from all liability on account of deficiency. Mr Buchanan seconded the amendment.

Mr Feraßd would oppose both original motion and amendment, on account of the injurious precedent. Mr A'Deane had as much sympathy for an honest working man as anyone; but could see no reason whatever for any abatement in this case.

Mr Parsons asked what the receipts were at the toll-bar during the time it was held by a Government officer.

Mr Carlyon would take charge of the toll-gate himself on the terms which were proposed to be granted. If they did not take advantage of the decision of the Supreme Court on this subject they would be overwhelmed with applications, of this sort. He would bring them enough to make their hair stand on end; so many that it would take them all day to read them, or at any rate, himself all night to write them. Such a request hadnever been brought before the Council during the 11 years it had already sat, and neither in Wellington, Auckland, nor that seat of corruption, Dunedin, did he believe such, a ching had ever been I done.

Mr Ormond, would, as a private member, support the original motion. He thought the Government should not press the full letter of the law in this case. It had been said we should not meddle with a Supreme Court judgment; bux we had a right in this case to mitigate the penalty.

Mr Carlyon : You call'a d£bt a penalty. Mr Ormond saiol it was a penalty to those who had to pay it. Lieut.-Col. Lambert mo\ ed as an amendment: That this Council do not interfere with any judgment of the Supreme Court unless so advised by the finance Committee. —He felt it the duty of every member to his constituency and to the Province to oppose any remission.

Mr Carlyon had heard this called a penalty. It'was a debt; as much a debt as the amount he (Mr C.) would owe if he bought a crinoline or chignon at a millinery establishment. A. penalty implied something in the nature of a ciiminal offence. He hoped the Council would not be turned into a whitewashing Court for insolvent debtors, He was as toni'-hed at the amendment proposed by his colleague. That gentleman's idea of the liability of sureties was evidently nil. This question was entirely one for the finance committee Thev had here a tangible sum of money that they could put their hands on, and they were foolishly at-

tempting by a side-wind, and by logtolling, to take it off their bands. If this scheme was carried, he as an independent member, would throw every possibleiinpedimentinthe way of the Government. Mr Tanner must refer to the usual reckless manner in which his colleague had spoken. Because he (Mr T) sought to relieve the sureties from their that gentleman had said that he had no appreciation of their responsibility as sureties, although he had yesterday pointed out that he felt this to be the great difficulty in the way of settling this matter. His colleague had also characterised this motion as foolish. It was that gentleman's habit so to term anything he did not agree with, and therefore he (Mr T.) would not, by referring to it any further, waste the time of the Council, as his friend and colleague had done.

Mr A'Deane in a speech of some length, cast doubt on the accuracy of the books kept by Mr Boddington.

Mr Rhodes said it had been asked how much the policeman took at the gate after Mr Boddington left. Dtiling the six*"een davs he was in charge he took .£9O 7s 6d, or £5 12s per day. This statement, to his mind, fullv bore out Mr Boddinscton's account. Those sixteen days were in the busiest time of the year, and included three race days, on each of which £lO or £ls would be taken. The toll-book was kept by daily entries. Mr A'Deane said it was utterly worthless.

Mr Rhodes : To a person who loes not want to believe it. One member opposite offered to take the toll-gate. I will guarantee it to him if he becomes responsible for £1,530 per annum. The proofs of the correctness of the books are to my mind conclusive, and I do not see how they can be further tested except by evidence by oath. Mr Ormond would point out that it was an absurdity to call this action interference with the judgment of the Supreme Court. Mr Carlyon : You wish to get rid of it altogether, and if that is not interference I do not know what is. Lieut.-Col. Lambert, by permission, altered the words "interfere with " in his amendment to " mitigate." Mr Tanner's amendment was then negatived on a division. Lieut.-Col. Lambert said that the member for Clive seemed to be actuated by an intense desire to please some of his constituents. He had been surprised at the support he had obtained from the member for Te Aute, whose bump of right and wrong was well developed ; but that gentleman commanded a troop, and though of course too good a soldier to be biassed, might lean a little to his company. There were always wheels within wheels. The Council was not a sentimental body; they had no light to remit a single farthing, and he hoped they would not be led astray from their clear and distinct duty.

Mr Carlyon insisted that this matter belonged to the Finance Committee. That was his strong point.

Lieut.-Colonel Lambert's amendment was then negatived on a divi-

sion. Mr Buchanan moved as an amendment —

That the figures £IOO be struck out, and the figures £SO be inserted.

! —He had not before spoken on the main question. This was the first at tempt the Government had made to enforce any penalty or debt—whichever was the correct term. The assisted immigrants were in debt to the extent of £9,000, and he did not think it right that, simply because the Government were in straits, these men should be the first -victim*. The speeches of some of the members had reminded him forcibly of the dealings of Shylock.

Mr Tanner, seconded the amendment. If the Council were determined to iniiici a penalty he would make it as low as possible He should like to see it further amended by the omission of the 0, making it <£s. Mr Carlyon was disgusted with such political corruption. He warned

|the Council he would yet give*them ;a great deal of trouble.

Mr Ferard ami Lieut.-Colonel Lambert also spoke against the amendment. . Mr Rhodes said that some members held out for the full pound of flesh. He did not envy the individual who had never experienced mercy and forbearance from his fellows, and those who had should give as well as receive. He was happy to say that he had known many instances in which private persons had in such a case as the presentrrefrained from enforcing the letter of the law —recognising the higher principle of justice.

Mr Carlyon : Name them.

Mr Rhodes.: The interruptions of the member for Te Ante are unbearable. lam glad to see there are only two or three members who hold out for the strict letter of the law being carried out. Mr Buchanan's amendment was negatived—Aye>, 5; noes, 10.

Mr CARLYON would move as an amendment that all the words of the motion except "That this Council "be struck out. As long as the standing orders of the Council enabled him to oppose such rank corruption he would do so.

Mr A'Deane said that this discussion bid fair to be interminable. He would put a stop to it if possible lry moving the previous qeustion. The previous question being carried, the original motion was assented to on the following division : Ayes, 12—Messrs. Dolbel, "Wood, Parsons, Sutton, Locke, M'Lean, Rhodes, Buchanan, Tanner, ICenne dy, "Weston, and Ormond. | .Noes, 4—Messrs. Carlyon, Lam bert, Ferard, and A'Deane. ! PAPERS. Mr Ormond laid on the table the following papers : Return showing the acreage of the Hikutoto block, the sura paid, the rate per acre, and the names of any valuers already appointed, and their several valuations. Statement of Loan Account £25,000. LIGHTHOUSE RESERVE. On Ihe motion of Mr M'Lean, the Lighthouse Reserve Leading Bill was read a second time. FINANCE COMMITTEE. Mr M'Lean brought up the Report of the Finance Committee, which w r as read. ERRORS IN GOVERNMENT RETURNS.

Mr Sutton drew the attention of the Speaker to the fact that there were serious errors in the figures in the Papakura Returns.

LAND GRANT TO MR W. R. RUSSELL. Mr M'Lean moved—

That a select committee be appointed to take evidence from the Commissioner of Crown Lands and such other persons as the committee may desire to examine, upon the matters contained in the Russell Grant of Land Bill, and to report such matters in full to the Council. Such committee to consist of Messrs Eerard, Carlyon, Buchanan, Tanner, and the mover. The committee to have power to call for persons and papers. Report to be brought up on Friday next.

I Agreed to : and the Council adjourned to 7.30 p.m.

The Council met at 7.30 p.m. PAPAKURA AND HIKUTOTO LEASING.

Mr Tanner moved the adjourned debate on this bill.

A long discussion ensued, the great objection offered to the measure being that agreements having been made under the old Act, it could not be altered without the consent of both parties. Mr Tanner strongly objected to the resolution, and pressed it to a division, in which he stood alone, all the other members voting with the ayes. The resolution was therefore agreed to. PETITION. Mr Buchanan said the learned member for Te Aute had entrusted him with a petition from himself to present. As he felt it his duty to present any petition which was respectfully worded, and as it asked for no pecuniary grant, he brought it forward. Before moving that it be read, however, he would! remark that lie was afraid it was informal, as it referred to a debate of the Council. | The Speaker said in that case it could not be received.

After formally going into commit tee on the Lighthouse Bill, the Council adjourned till next sitting day.