PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume XIII, Issue 587, 18 June 1868, Page 1 (Supplement)

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

\CeDNESDAV, JuXE 10. The Speaker took the chair at 3 o’clock. Present—All the members except Mr. Carlyon. ' IAMXU jipvrOurlO.tiOn. Mr. Buchaxax, pursuant to notice, moved—i’L/i a iclUiu Ot Tiir ciilliS olriCl* iflU of ilie ljUjt’J A-p j i i('j'*n ;it ion A.ct, Session 8 No. 4, for the several purposes therein set forth, stating the amounts charged respectively to annual votes of Council and to the appropriations made by the said Act ; the outstanding charges or liabilities (if any), and the totals in each case. —He thought it desirable that tbe Council should have this return before proceeding with the consideration of the Loan Appropriation Amendment Bill, or of the estimates. Mr. APLean, in seconding the motion, said that the Government had no objection to laying this information before the Council. Agreed to. EJ ucaiional Slot idles. Mr. "\\ ood, pursuant to notice, moved—'that llts Honor the Superintendent he requested to lay on tin- table a return, shewing 1. .A list of educational endowments within the province, and the annual rental derivable from each. -. .V list of schools within the province, shewing in what proposed educational district they are situate, and what aid each has received from Government during the financial year about to end. I’, An estimate of the number of rateable householders within each proposed educational district, and the estimated amount to ho derived in each such district from the collection of rates. 4. And, generally, such other statistical information ns may serve (o guide members in considering the Education Bill now before the Council. ■ —The object of the motion was so obvious that he considered that no time need be taken up by explanation. Agreed to. Allowance to Country Memlers. Mr. Bl'liiaxax, pursuant to notice, moved— That the number of days for which country members shall he entitled to draw the customary allowance for attendance during tho present sittings, shall not exceed fifteen ; or. in the event of Ifis Excellency the Governor's arrival delaying the Gouncil business, eighteen, —ln these days of economy, when reductions were being made in'the salaries of Government officers, and necessary public works had to be suspended for want of means, be thought it would be only proper for the Council to set their own house in order—to 'bring their reductions nearer home by restricting the honor'.riu.m they hail hitherto received, and thus showing that their desire for economy w as real and disinterested, lie thought! he proposition was perfectly fair and reasonable. The motion not being seconded, the Council passed on tbe consideration of tbe next notice. Provincial hidl lu 1 ions. Mr. Buchaxax, pursuant to notice, as iced— Whether (be Superintendent has had in his consideration the question so prominently engaging the public mind in New Zealand, as to the de-iiuhiliiy of continuing .he provincial system ; and if he intends faking the opinion of tiiis Council on the subject during tin. present session. —This question had engaged the at tenlion ol the public all over tho colony: and no doubt had been well considered by his Honor tbe Superintendent. As it was peculiarly a Government question, it was the duly of the Government to bring it under the notice of the Council. His Hoxok said that the public mind was at- present, much engaged with thus question; and, as far as the Government wore concerned, they would be happy to invite an expression of the opinion of the Council on the subject. He should like that opinion to be in sue]) a form that he and Iris colleague might bring it under tho notice of the General Government in (he House of Representatives. Edncatlonal Reserves. Major Lamiikki, pursuant to notice, moved— That hi? Honor the Superintendent will cause to he laid on the table a return of all the lands in the Province set aside for educational purposes, shewing the acreage, where situated, and the rental, if arty, derived from such lands, with the name of the tenants. —His object was to elicit information which might assist members in considering the proposed Education Act. The member for Havelock had almost taken the wind out of his sails ; but no harm would be done by laying the return on the table. Agreed to. TVepn-espat. .Text: K>. Standing Rules and Orders. pursuant to notice, moved—■lfif the Select Committee upon Standing Ordftt be re-appointcri, to consist of the same n’r-mhj., R f, ] nP f session.and that the Standing o“berj rpeorr. turnfird by t hem for the adoption *he Lattncil be referred to them ( or further songidention, and that if be an instruction to

| them to alter proposed rules 11 and 12, as j I to throw doubt upon the right of this I j Council to choose its own Speaker; to ex- ; P un M' e _ “d orders purporting to control (he i Superintendent in the exercise of his office; | to take especial care that the Standing Or- | decs us to summonsing witnesses and pre«ervj ini? order, bp in strict accordance with the 1 ■ “ Privileges Act 1856*’ ; to recommend Stand- ! i ing Orders as to election of a Chairman of ! : i/uiu.uTn-.i, as to me election ano utun-s m" a j I v tern, ami ns in the aopoin'inent of 'funding \ ’ Committees to cuperimend the printing and I I library of the Council, and to recommend or- I | tiers tor the guidance of such committees. I : Tii the proposed standing orders it was j j ordered that the election of the Speaker I : should be confirmed by the fSuperiuten- ! i deuE This was contrary to tlie New | S Provinces Act, which provided that the : | election of a Speaker by the Council i should be at once valid and ellectual. j | There were powers granted to the Chair- : : man of Committees, and no provision for ; ; hts election; there were also allusions I . made to the duites of the clerk, and no i j provision for his appointment. There j wm ‘ t'ony other errors, which the select : committee could best rectify. ! ■ Mr. A Deask seconded the motion jrro ■Jorvao.. He could see how the errors originated. Tite slaudhtg orders had been taken principally from those of (be Hons.- 1 : ol He;•res.'iitalives and brovinei.-d Council 1 : ot A clJington, (lie eunimiliee forgetting that Cue Province of Hawke's Bay was ; constituted under a dlllereut Act from the ■ : °hl Provinces. He hoped they would not | i be deprived of the valuable assistance of; : the mover of the mol ion before the house, ■ ! med would therefore move as an amend- 1 | nieiit that the name of Hr. Perard be atl- i I ded to the committee. j j Mr. objected on the ground of. | want of experience. i Mr. Taxxuu would support the amendj nient. J lie member tor the town had j evidently given the matter very careful | consideration, j Mr. Ormond suggested that Mr. Ferj ard's name might be substituted for bis i j own. He would not be able to attend on I | the committee. j ( Lieut.-Col. AViiit.mohe would rather | j that Mr. Perard s mime Mould be substi- 1 j titled lor his. His other duties would j j quite iorlnd his attendance. j j _ -Major Lamueiit proposed that an cu-j I ttrely new committee should be appointed, ' As tme ol the old committee be objected j to sit altogether. j Mr. M 000. as one of the old committee, j would wish bis name struck oil'. It would i be simply impossible that he could attend, j ; He thought the suggestion of the member I ; tor A\ ;t!] nikitrau worthy ot attention. ! I Mr. Buchanan thought the old rules | ; and orders had worked very well for 1 i several years, and a new code could well! ! be deleiTed for another Session, if there I .was ever to be another. He had I i warned the Council last year that the pre- j ! paration of new standing rules and orders I was no trilling task. j | Major La Mi;,, ar proposed that the name ! jof (he Speaker should lie added. He eon- \ | sideved the presence of the Speaker in a j I committee oi this nature as of vital im- | j port mice. | | litc Sei:AKr>: said that pressure of bust- j i ness would qusle prevent his attendance. I I He would ih ere tore avail himself of his 1 | privilege, and. decline. ! -Major La ah; Eg r hoped the Speaker i i would reconsider his decision. i | The Speak::!! said he could not. I j Aiajor Lamheut would propose the name I i of a member of the Government, Air. Ken- I I nedy. j j Air. Kennedy was very sorry, but he j i would be quiteunablc to give proper alien- i | tion to the subject. i I AJajor Lami;ekt thought the house j | should insist on the compliance of some | ! members. Ho should propose as a com- i mitlee. Messrs.Perard. Buchanan, Tanner, i and Carlyon. j Air. Buchanan: May I remind tbe I member for AVaipukurau that under the ; present standing rules and orders a motion I lor a committee must include the name of the mover r Major L.unirrT: I think I will withdraw the motion. j Air. Tanner moved that the whole j question should he referred to the Previn- | cial Solicitor. The pamphlet should bo j taken as a whole, and submitted to that j gentleman's opinion. j Lieut.-Colonel "Whitmore would sup- | port the last amendment. He saw nothing 1 in it derogatory to the dignity of the j Council. Air. Buchanan would support the lasi amendment, as it would give such an excellent instance of the practical working of : the new standing rule. He hoped the ; Provincial Solicilor would find (lie book j very instructive and pleasant reading. I XT.. TV t-;-- i- i ji-~ i_ _ . I -' JI, - 1 l 'h."‘i\P i tie- iiiiifijumciit j ! would not pass. It would be utterly tin- ! j becoming for them to refer to tbe Proviu- I j cial Solicitor the rules by which their | I proceedings were to he conducted. That I | officer would no doubt say. “ Conduct i i yourselves like gentlemen.” • j 1 Air. Rhodes thought the rules might j j very well he submitted to the Provincial I i Solicitor. They would be quite safe with ! ; him. " 1

After some further debate of a desultory nature, the question was postponed until after the rest ol the business had been disposed of. Log.:n Apiptropriation. Mir. OKiioNn, pursuant to notice, moved — For leave to bring in a bill to amend tho “Loan Appropriation Act.” Session 8. No. 4. Tue motion was agreed to ; the Bill was read a first time ; ordered to be printed ; and the second reading ordered for Tuesday. Address to his Excellency. Mr. M'Lkan brought up the report of the committee appointed to prepare an address to Ids Excellency, and moved that it be read. The report was read and adopted. Post OJicc and Telegraph Reserve. Mr. Locke, pursuant to notice, moved—• That, in the opinion of this Council, the Gro-ycrnnit-nr. reserve bounded by Kmereon-streif, lennyson-sfrect, and ILisdugs-sf-ect will tie a more eiigihb- site for the General Pis! Oilier and Telegraph Station than the she at urgent intended; and that the iSupt-rinfendent be r. ijuertod to offer to the Genera! Government a portion thereof, in lieu of the laud lately conveyed to them. ile had presented a petition on this subject, largely signed by the townspeople, and had very lit tie need to supplement it w ith any remarks. The Government buildings’ enclosure was the only public square in the town, except Clive square, and the idea of adding another building to it was not favored by the people. The proposed sue had also many advantages which this had not. ' ° Mr. .Huoiips seconded the motion. Mr. A Deaxi: would oppose the motion. It ot course arose from the petition on the subject winch had been presented by that _member. He did not believe that petition expressed the views of the great body of the electors of Napier. Out of A b names on the roll, there were onlv 70 on lliy petition. There was, top. a wider qu ’siion involved than the wishes of the inhabitants of the town —there was that ol public convenience. In the old country the spirit of the time was to have the public cilices as near to each other as possible. He believed, however, it was now too late to interfere with the site, as the tenders had been already sent in. Mr. !l Holms said that he could not agree teat it was the spirit ot the age to have the public buildings all together. He did not know ol any single instance where this was the ease. In Wellington the post office and government buildings were at opposite etuis of the towiu As for the facilitation ot business, he did no! believe it 'would matter much whether it was at the Spit or toe end ot the W hfte-road, or anywhere between. So lar as the plea of economy was concerned, the post and telegraph ofliec being built on the site named by llie petitioners would so enhance the value of the remainder of the reserve as to be a considerable gam to the province. Mr. lanxkk would support the motion, lie thought tile town residents were the best qualified to judge in the matter. Mr. SftTox considered that the petition was m a manner a secret one. Many of the electors knew nothing of it. His opinion w as that the site proposed by the Government was the best ii/ Xapier. A great many of the signatures were those of non-residents. and the greater part of the residents signing it were on the ‘Whiteroad and some eight or ten from the Spit. .He would oppose the motion. 3H’. I'KRAtM) thought the site fixed upon by Government would be more convenient to Hie merchants at the Spit, who would principally use it, than the one proposed in the petition ; hut as the opinion of the public seemed to be otherwise, he should support Hie motion. Lieut-Gol. Whitmoke would oppose the motion, ns the site suggested in the petition was tlie market reserve, which he thought should be applied to the purpose for whieh it was intended. Mr. W con said that it was difficult for a town resident to divest his mind of his private interest in this matter. Tor Ids own part lie was one of those who would bare most occasion to use the telegraph and would like it to be near Ins office ; but. apart altogether from this motive, lie considered that the site proposed in the petition was the true one, as the town was rapidly extending in that direction. Major Lamiu'.ut could appreciate tho difficulty felt by town members in divesting their minds of personal interests. it was quite true that in the old country all the public offices were being concentrated at a vast expense, and it was bad to inaugurate the contrary system here. The site proposed by the petition was not the vytiu e ... ousinr-ss. me mercantile establisuments were ail at the Spit. and. until recentiy. one of the Banks itad been halfway between it and the town. He did not thinit the publie feeling was very strong in this matter. Twenty out of every liftv people would sign almost any petition. He would vote against the motion. Mr. -Bit ha nan said the genera! cist of Hm accusations against the petition was that it was a hole-and-corner proceeding.

Tills was hardly consistent witli fact. Tho number of electors signing it, seventy, was. a large proportion of a constituency where the largest number who had ever voted was 120. There had been no counter petition, although plenty of time had been afforded for one, and at present this must be taken as representing the views of the inhabitants of Aapier. He would support the motion. dir. M'Leax said this question had been raised rather late, as the laud had been surveyed, marked out, and conveyed to the General Government, and adverisements for contracts issued, for which tenders had already gone in, A deputation, however, had afterwards waited upon him, expressing a strong conviction that the site proposed in the petition was. the best, and he felt there was much in favor of their argument. He promised to refer the question to the Provincial Council. The motion was then put and carried on the following division : Ayes, 8 Messrs. MTean, Rhodes, Locke, Wood, Ferard, Buchanan, Weston, and Tanner. Aoes. (I— Messrs. Sutton. Dolbel, Whitmore, A'Deaue, Lambert, and Parsons. Hanipden Road. Mr. A Deaxe, pursuant to notice, asked—• , Mhy u sum of £2OO, voted by this Council for the road to Hampden from Napier has not been expended in improving that road. —He brought the subject of this road before lire Council last session, and with great diilieuky managed to get the sum of £2OO placed on the estimates fir repairing it. This had certainly not been spent, and the road was now in such a state that tbs draymen preferred making a da our of some twenty extra miles to travelling on it. Mr. M‘Leax said that tho sum of £lO had been spout on the road, which was now in very tolerable condition. The whole sum appropriated would have been spent, but for absolute want of funds. Standing Rides and Orders. On this subject being resumed, Lieut.Colonel W iimiouE moved the following amendment;— That the Select Committee appointed last session to prepare new standing orders be reappointed. and that Mr. Ferard’s name be added thereto, and that it be an instruction to them to revise the proposed standing orders printed by order of the Council, and to place a draft standing orders in the hands of the Superintendent, with a request that he will be so good as to submit the same to the Provincial Solicitor, with a request that he will point out any provision which it is beyond the powers of this Council to enact. Major Lamdekt seconded the amendment, which was agreed to. On the motion of Mr. Rhodes, the Council then adjourned. Thursday, June 11. The Council met at 3 p.m. Present, all the members except Mr. Carlvon. Petition. Mr. Wood presented a petition from certain Roman Catholic inhabitants of 2s apier, objecting to the provisions of tho proposed Ldncatiou Bill, and praying tho Council not to pass it without mature consideration. Petition read and received. Committee of Sappig. On the motion of Mr. Okmoxd tho Council went into committee of supply. Mr. Omioxc made his iinancial statement. He said that the estimated revenue for tho year ending 30th June. 1808. was -t.1t).30.j, which had not been realized. The actual revenue or rather actual receipts lor the year was £25.751, leaving an apparent deiieit of £10,551 on last oar s estimates. This deficit, however, did not actually exist, lor a sum of £5,171 had been received by the receiver of land revenue on account of territorial revenue, which had been impounded by the General Government on account of the permanent charges against the Province, such as interest on the old laud purchase loan, M elhngton debt. Ac., so that the actual deficiency of revenue as compared with tho estimate was £5,153. In a paper which he would lay on the table would he found a detailed comparative statement of the estimated and actual revenue, the estimated receipt under each item being placed in one column, and the actual amount, received in another. From this it would be seen that the deficiency occurred chiefly from the estimated territorial revenue not having been realized. There was an item of £2,714 on account of land purchases against the Province of Auckland, widen had not been realized. The Superintendent of that Province fully admitted the liability; but had been quite unable to find funds to meet it. Again, under the head of miscellaneous, the levies ot the toll-bar had only realized £IBO, in place of £2.000, as estimated. This was in consequence ot the cWay which, i I’oni tin forscen circums tan cos, had occurred in bringing the “ Toli-Bar Act” into operation. Ihe accounts had been made up lolhe end ot tlie last month, with the sums estimated ns outstanding added. He had now shown the. deficiency of revenue as compared wi|h the estimate for

the year ending June 30tli, ISG3, He •would now have to make a short explanation which would inforra the Connell as to the estimated position of the bank account on the Ist July, 1868. Out of the X-0./Ol v, inch he had mentioned as being i the actual receipts for the year, must be ; deducted £4B'), which, though due this j month, and therefore necessarily appear- j ing under this head in the Provincial ; Treasurer’s books, they did not expect to I pet, thus reducing the sum to £25,271. 1 To this had to be added £B2B, the sura i that was in the hands of the Provincial ; Engineer as an advance on the Ist July, ; 1807, making the cidire sum that had and j would accrue as revenue, £20,01)1). The statement of expenditure showed the disbursements during the same period to be £28,513, or, in other words. £2.1- »1 more than the receipts. This sum of £2.101, ! then, represented _the estimated overdraft ; for the year. The statement of expenditure he would lay on the table would fully show the heads under which the various amounts had been expended, blow for the coming year, from the Ist July 180 S to the 30ih June, 1S01). He would first lay on the table the estimate of revenue foiMhe coining year. The ordinary revenue which the Government; expected to receive was £10,430, £B,OOO of which would be the provincial share of the consolidated revenue. and the remainder sheep assessments, publicans’ licenses, harbor dues, etc. One thing worthy of mention was that the ordinary revenue last year exceeded the estimate, and he believed that this was almost the only province in tiie colony where this had been the case. The tcrrifcorialrcvenue was estimated at £O,OOO, und the miscellaneous, including rent of toll-bar, Papakura and Hikutoto rents, Ac., £4,518 ; the sum total being £20.973. Of this, £1,500, revenue under the Tollgate Act. had already been appropriated to a particular purpose by that Act, leaving the revenue actually at the disposal of the Council during the ensuing year, £19,473. He would now proceed to the expenditure. In the preparation of the estimates a different form of arrangement had been followed from that adopted hitherto, and members would now more easily ascertain the expense that was incurred for the different brandies of the provincial service. In framing these estimates the Government had made every reduction ihev thought possible, without abolishing some of the departments altogether. " They' thought that, if the existing departments were to be retained at all, they could not be conducted at a less cost than was estimated. All salaries, with one or two exceptions, above £250 per annum had been reduced 20 per cent.; those below that sum had not been meddled with. The j total estimated expenditure for the year j ending June 30, 1869, for all the different I services, including the adminisiraiive de- | partments; judicial, includiugpolicc. chari- | table, miscellaneous, Ac.; and also includ- ! ing the permanent charges, which were ] estimated for the year at £0215, was I £16,119. To this had to he added the I overdraft at the Bank, £2.104, making j £18.523, and leaving only £B2B available I for public works and undertakings during j the year. The sum total of expenditure j was thus £19,351 approaching very I closely to the amount of estimated j revenue, which, without the toll bar dues, was estimated at £19,473. He I had now concluded the ■ explanation I he had to make as to the monetary posi- j tiou of the province and the proposals of i the Government for the ensuing year. ' The Government had endeavoured to reduce the expenditure to the lowest possible amount, and they believed that no I further reduction could take place 'unless ! whole brandies of the service were dis- j pensed with. The Government were, j however, most desirous of meeting the I views of the Council, if they deemed fur- | thor reduction possible, and invited their j assistance to that object. He, for his | part, could not but feel that, when the j resources of the province were so reduced i that only £B3B was available for public I works and immigration, that 1 lie time had I come, when the main objects for the pro- { motion of which provinces had boon esta- j Wished, were placed beyond their power j to further. For the ensuing year, and. possibly, for a year after that, money I could be found out of the remainder of S the £60,000 to keep open the main linos j of Toad of the province, and to do a little | towards immigration ; but this was only j possible if the unexpended portion of the j loan were devoted, as it must bo, to these i objects. He trusted he had made the i statement he had just completed, and j which he had purposely confined to as brief limits as possible, plain and intelligible to the Council. He would now ex- i plain to them the position of the £60,000 j Fan. Feferring back to the accounts for ! the year ended .Tunc 30, 1867, members! would recollect that an expenditure out of j the loan to the extent of £7.691 had taken place. He now laid upon the table a I statement of the expenditure under this J head, to the end of the year ending June 30, 1868, which showed an expenditure of £24.156 —making the total sum expended to the termination of the present financial year £31.84 7. and leaving unexpended a balance of about £2B,loti). This balance the Council would be asked to reappropriate by Act during the present session, and he would not forestall the ‘’vplanation he would then have to give as '

to the objects on which the Government proposed it should be expended. Befbre silting down, he would refer to a subject which was worthy the attention of the Council. Members were aware that, under the present arrangement of the colonial revenues, certain charges, known as provincial charges, and which were appropriated by rote of the Home ofEepresentalives, were taken out of the share of the consolidated revenues of the colony, nominally given to the provinces. These provincial charges on account of Hawke’s Bay amounted, for the year ending the 30th J uue. 1868. to the sum of £0,342 10s., and were on account of the following services ; Paymaster's Office £l5O Stamps ... ... ... 125 Electoral ... ... ... 60 Uevising Officer 75 Supreme Court ... ... 135 District Court 150 Kosident Mn cist rates' Courts 1070 Registrar's < Jflice ... ... 350 Postal Department ... ... 1628 Customs ... 1260 Militia ]:■!•! 9 10 £i!.'U'2 U) —His object in bringing this subject before them was to invite, on the part of members, an enquiry into the expenditure under these heads, and lie believed lie was correct m saving that the present premier of (he Colonial Government had himself mv:ted enquiry by (ln> Provincial Councils, into the expenditure on account of provincial charges. At any rate, whether his reeoileeiioa on this subject was correct or not. one tiling was certain, that the sum abovenamed of £6312 was actually abstractedfrom tbe share the province gets of the consolidated revenues: and if that sum could be reduced, the share coming to the province would be increased by the amount of such reduction. It was clearly a question of interest to the province, and one on which an expression of opinion from the Council would have proper weight. He believed he had now touched upon all the questions he had intended, and would move that the committee have leave to sit again on Tuesday next. The chairman then reported progress and obtained leave to sit again on Tuesday next. Finance Comrn iltcc. Mr, BuctiAXAX, pursuant to notice, moved — That the estimates be referred to a Finance Committee, with instructions to report in two days. Such Committee to consist of Messrs. M'Lean, Ormond, Lambert, A’Dcaue, and the mover. ■ —He thought the course he now proposed was the one which would be most satisfactory to all parties. _ Mr MM j t'A-N said the Government considered that the most convenient course would he to consider them in committee of the whole house. The question was one in which the whole Council was deeply interested, and he thought the desired end would he best attained by follow ing that course. ■Mr. M ood considered that it was peculiarly the function of a finance committee to consider such matters as the reduction or abolition of departments, such as had been referred to in (he financial statement. It would be a more pleasant course for members than considering such things in open council, as well as be a great saving of lime. Mi'. Oijmond could not agree with the member who had last spoken, lie thought this was no time for tluuskiuucdness, and was fully prepared to take his share of the obloquy which might fall upon the Council for the action they might take in reducing salaries or abolishing offices. Ho liked to work openly, and saw no advantage to be gained by a small committee, which, after all, would hare to come back to the Council with the result of its work. The Council would of course exercise its privilege of free discussion afterwards. If lie saw that the motion would do any good he would support it. Otherwise.be considered the committee proposed was as fair a one as possible; in fact, he thought the member opposite had taken all pains to have it perfectly impartial. Mr. Taxxkh said that the constitution of the proposed committee showed that the mover was not actuated by party feeling. If the object were to have the business discussed privately, a select committee would fail, ns the whole matter would have to he re-opened in Council. This object could be easily attained by the exclusion of the public during the discussion. Mr. Feuabd could not agree with the idea of private discussion in Council. He thought all its proceedings should bo entirely public, if it was to have the confidence of the public. Members of a select, committee might have motives of private spite imputed to them: which would be quite obviated by public discussion. He did not like to sec tiie salaries of hardworking officers reduced. He would rather see the money come out of tire pockets of the public. He would oppose the motion. Lieut.-Col. IVrrmronE thought that the public would be dissatisfied if they wore excluded from the debates of the Council, and that it would be better if these matters were discussed openly. Mr. M odd wished to explain. The conclusion that some members had drawn

I from Lis remarks—that he wished to have • oiiylbing secret about the discussion on ■ the estimates, was not a true one. Of i course the report of the committee could I he discussed to any extent in the Council j afterwards; hut almost ail councils hadiate- , ly referred, in the first place, the subject of | retrenchment to a select committee, j Major Lamukht would support the mo- ; tion. as he believed it would be. a great ;■ heuelil io the province. There Could be j ju Luc mailer, tlio eslnnu-tcs | were now lying on the table ; they would i oc t an> ao.-,_ti m eoiiiLLiii.ive. the coniI mu ice s iv port would he discussed in the whole house. JN’ow, his experience of years in the Council had shown him the difficulty of making reductions in salaries. It was a singular fact that the moment the subject was mentioned a number of members were unexpectedly called out of the room. Another advantage of the committee would he that the estimates would be more carefully gone through. The Government always hurried them through at such a dreadful rate that the members had really uo time to consider them, and they were in consei quence very careLssly gone through. t Ao. i no, from Mr. Ormond.j if there had ; been anything secret or unmanly in this j suggestion he would have had nothing to do With it. Ihere were sonic people who thought it was unmanly and uu-hinglish to vote by ballot. These ideas were great stuli. lie thought the composition of the committee emihi not he challenged. He should he sorin' to see the public excluded ; li’om the debates of the Council. | Mr. 11 rcii anax said that the main ob- ; jectiou urged against the motion was that j it was in a manner a secret proceeding. ; Aow, however excusable this objection might be in a member unacquainted with 1 the forms of the house, it did not come j well from the member for Horangahau. j Mr. Oiisjoxu; I spoke entirely with I reference to the remarks of the member ' for Te Ante. | Mr. Tanner: I would remind the I member for Horangahau that 1 did not i speak until after him. (Laughter.) j Mr. Oioioxi): It was the member for i Havelock, then, who suggested that the j proceedings should be private. I Air. AVuon ; I said nothing of the kind, j Air. Ormond : 1 remember a member I saying that if this matter was discussed in | public certain members’ feelings might be | hurt. i Air. Buchanan would waive this point. | as he could see that there had been a misj understanding. He would take up the j general question of secrecy. A select j committee was not necessarily secret, it might open its doors to the public, and I this was very frequently done. It might | take evidence, and examine ollicers with reference to their duties. Uf course- a ! committee of the whole house could do j the same tiling; hut the system was so j cumbrous that the work was usually left j to select committees. He had no desire to shirk the responsibility of diilicull questions, for if any member had brought obnoxious questinns before the house, it was himself. He had moved for reductions when not one member in the house would listen to him. As for the charge of j spite, he was sorry that any member ! should give utterance to so low an opinion 1 of the Loaned. Air. Hueaed : 1 said Hie public might ; think the committee actuated hr private j spite. ! Air. Buchanan said that the whole I proceedings of a committee were noted | down, and printed with their report, and | that the public had full and free access to ! them. He thought that, had such comI mittees been appointed earlier, it might ; have prevented the Government from lap- ; sing into such a system of extravagance [ as they had carried on. It was now certainly time, as lie had said before, to set ; their house in order, and to go about | lluaneial reform in a more extensive spirit | than the Government had done. Tlicv ; had reduced the estimates to lire full ox- ! lent of their power, and had said that 1 they were prepared to take their stand j upon them ; hut there might be a section j in the Council who thought they had not i gone tar enough. He did not sec the j lorec of the plea that the whole house could do it bettor, for he had always found two or three work better than a larger number. In the construction of the committee he had not sought advice of any j single member—he had pul down the i names which appeared to him most suitable. He must press his motion to a division. _ Ihe motion was carried on the following division: 7 —Alessrs Buchanan, Wood, Weston, Parsons, A’Deanc, Holbel and Lambert. Xoes, 6 Alessrs AHLcan, Ormond, Ehodes, Kennedy, i AA liitmore. Ferard. ] i Standing Orders Committee. ! _ Lieut.-Col. AA'hit.more, pursuant to notice, moved— That his name be expunged from Standing Orocrs Committee, and Mr. Buchanan's substituted. Air. Feeaeh opposed the motion. He objected to placing on the committee the name of a member who had stated his belief that the old standing rules were sufficient. Air. Buchanan said the remarks of the Inst speaker were very true. He thought the present rules were more than suffi- !

dent. He would join the member for Napier in this matter ami do as he did last }’ear, when he voted against his name being placed on the committee. Lieut.-Col. Whitmore, then, with the leave oi the Council, divided his motion and moved that his name be expunged irom the Standing Orders Committee. Agreed to. Lieut.-Col. Whitmore moved that Mr. Bi'CUaxax’s name he added to the Standing Orders Committee. Agreed to on division, Messrs. Buchanan, Weston, and Perard voting as**'ns* the motion “ “ WaipavM Telegraph Station. Mr. Tax nee, pursuant to notice, moved— For further Information from the Government relative to the establishment of a Telegraph Station at Waipawa. I He wished to know whether the practically unanimous resolution of the Council i had been sent to the General Government, and, if so, whether any reply had been received ; so that members might form an idea of the manner in which resolutions of Council and public petitions were received by the Government. M r. A Deane, in seconding the motion, said that bis constituency complained of being out ut reach oi the telegraph, through the wishes ot tire Council not having been, complied with. Education Act. Mr. IGiodes. pursuant to notice, moved —■ The second reading of the Education Act. —Seeing the great diversity of opinion that prevailed on this subject, he thought the best course would bo to refer the matter to a select committee. Mr. I* heard opposed the second reading of (be Bill, as he considered it utterly objectionable in principle. He did not at all approve of the system of the Government levying a general rate, to be confined in its operation to the district where it was raised, as what would be ample in one district would be totally msuflieient in another. This Bill would destroy the whole system ol education at present existing in this province, and as he considered it radically bad be would oppose it on principle. Mr. Wood would oppose the second reading. The necessity for an Act on this subject was admitted on all hands, but it was to be regretted that the Government Lad not given the subject more eonsidera- | tion, and produced something less crude than the measure before the Council. In tact the Bill as it stood was utterly unworkable. Although .Napier would be by far the largest payer of rules, this Act did not apply' to a single school in it. Its provisions were applicable only to district schools, as shewn by the proviso that local boards could enter into possession of all schools, and to no denominational school. Then as to country districts, the fact of each district being expected to supply' its own requirements, would, in many' sparsely populated districts, be tantamount to up the school altogether. The Act would be inoperative alike in town or country. Then as to the rate, he observed that a uniform rate on bouses was contemplated, but he questioned the justice of imposing the same tax upon a low valued, as upon a high valued house. He was very desirous to see an Educational Bill passed, but could not assent to the principle of this one. He would however be favorable to referring to a select committee the preparation of another measure. Mr. A’ Dean e opposed the second reading. He considered that the best course would be to place the matter in the hands of a committee, which, he had no doubt, could frame a thoroughly workable Education Act, one which would be a credit to the province. Lieut.-Col. Whitmore opposed the second reading. He believed that an Education Act was necessary, but considered flint it was a shameful thing that there were such a number of teachers in the province receiving Government aid, many of whom had only three or four scholars. It was the same all over the country, the Government paying for sehooisandschoolmastcrs with no scholars; their money positively' thrown away, till the office of schoolmaster had become a kind of refuge for the destitute. The fault was in the parents not sending their children to school, and he trusted that, whether they were active or passive in the matter, they would be soon made to pay. He thought the bill before the house would be totally unavailing, and that aa entirely new one should be framed. He bcli eved that the rate should be applied to a school for indigent children in some central pari of the Province. Parents were usually so indifferent about their children s education that the present system was virtually subsidizing schools for the benefit of two or three families. He s’ o dd support a bill for compulsory education as ■n el! as compnlsorv navment. as he believed that education was the general dutv of all. The second reading was ultimately postponed till Tuesday. Toll-gate Act Amendment. Mr. Suttox, pursuant to notice, move-' The second reading of the Toll-gate AmerL ment Act. After some discussion, the motion,was lost A n a division.