MR. STAFFORD'S ADDRESS TO THE NELSON ELECTORS.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume XIII, Issue 579, 21 May 1868, Page 2

MR. STAFFORD'S ADDRESS TO THE NELSON ELECTORS.

Lirora tbe kelson Examiner, 7th 2lay.J The Hon, k. \V. Stafford met ]ii3 constituents, the electors of Nelson, in the Provincial Hall, on Saturday, the 2nd May. The meeting was one of the largest ever held in Nelson, all nsrts of the build'"" hplng •tvpli filled: Vid amg„.7 the .audience were a number of ladies. On the motion of Dr Ibtine. hid Hoxoii the Superintendent took the chair. Ciiaiejian, after stating the object of the meeting, said he was quite sure the largo audience would follow the customary course adopted by a Nelson audience, a course which he had frequently benefited by himself, that of giving to a" speaker a fair, patient, and attentive hearing. Mr Staffoed, who was received with jeheers mingled with some kisses, then adjdressed the meeting, as follows:—Mr i Chairman and Gentlemen—ln taking the chair, his Honor (he Superintendent referred, with honorable recognition, to the reception which, as a public man, had been accorded to him on occasions when he addressed the electors. From none more than myself is duo a full recognitor of similar receptions experienced by me from the people of Nelson, extending over the long period of fourteen years. (Hear, hear.) Although some hard things have been said by some of the people in my absence, yet I have always found, when the opportunity has been accorded to me of meeting you all face to face, that you have treated me fairly on receiving explanations with respect to matters not previously understood, and always accorded me a renewal of that confidence which it is a pleasuro for me to thi::k that I have so long enjoyed. It is with particular satisfaction that I have now an opportunity of meeting the electors of this city. I have ever considered it to be not only a duty to the electors, but an advantage to their representative, that periodical interviews should take place between (hem; and I am especially happy to have an opportunity of addressing you at the present noment, a 3 I am aware that there has )een a good deal of misapprehension, and, [ may say of misrepresentation also, reelecting the conduct of the Government, vhich I hope now to be able to explain to he satisfaction of this large meeting. Hear, hear.) But b fore entering on ;eueral questions, I find myself compelled 0 refer to matters which are specially personal to myself. I had hoped that on he present occasion I should have been ible to avoid all allusion to maiters of a nerely personal character; but, in view of his meeting to-night, there have appeared n both the local papers certain remarks vhich compel mo to allude to them. I ihall first refer to the Colonist, published resterday. I find that the Colonist, in a eading article on the p::st and the future —which could have- no other effect than hat of prejudicing the public in antieip.iion of any explanations which I might offer ;his evening—says it did not want to hear >xplanations of the part ; that, in fact, it vas " too late" to ivfer to the past, and hat members ought merely to state beorehaml what course they intend to pursue in the future. Ido n't know whether )r not it occurred to the Colonist that il t were "too late" to refer to tiu"tast in terms of praise or explanation, nirely, in justice, it was also "too ate" to do so in terms of censure. But I im not content to accept that position, md notwithstanding the opinion of the Colonist, I shall refer to the past. The Holonist also selected a most unfortunate llustration, in instancing the " Public Debts Act" as one to which it was now :oo late to refer, and in asserting that no ntimation had previously been given that '.t was intended to submit it to the Legisature, as this act- was specially announced beforehand. The Colonist could not therelore have chosen a more unfortunate illusiration than this act ; for if the public was ever distinctly informed as to any one question more than another, it was in formed that the Government intended to propose to guarantee the provincial loans. L wrote a despatch to Mr Ward before he Left for England, indicating the intentions 3f the Government, which despatch was printed iu the local journals, including the Colonist. (Hear, hear.) How could the Government have more clearly indicated its intentions, if I had, as suggested by the Colonist, communicated the fact viv't voce io the electors? It may be said possibly, that this dispatch did not give in detail (he nature of the measure. (Hear, near.) It is impossible to anticipate the exact shape in which any measure will pass, and in this instance the bill was brought ink the House in one shape and passed in other. There were only two important political measures submitted to the Legislature last session, one being the bill tc consolidate the provincial debts, and the other the Local Government Eill. Publh attention had been directed to both ques tions. The first had been recommende; in the speech of the Governor on openim Parliament for three successive sessions and the oilier had been announced in tin Governor's speech in proroguing Parlia menf at the close <d r'n- nrpyions spssion and three of my colleagues in the Ministry Mr Hail, Major Richardson, and Mr Rich inond, in public speeches, stated pi3ml; a measure on the subject. (Hear, he-ir. 1 could not have said anything more thai was distinctly announced as to these tw< great questions—net a word more couh have been said so far as regarded the in tentions of the Government. So mud for what has been said by the Colonist. moraing. Speaking of myself, it says;-

Wh“ - ! !a*t elected, hs wee regarded as the champion of economical government—the enemy of extravagance in public affairs in any and every ionn. air ritaifoi'ii has not..realised tire exonerations then entertained of "him, and he will this evening have an opportunity of explaining what needs explanation in his conduct, and of justifying the course be has adopted.

lorm. Air StH-iioru ims uuL.-rtiiuised. tiiti 6x.dl;clcl« tions then entertained of 'him', and he will this evening have an opportunity of explaining what needs explanation in his conduct, and of jmtifving the course he has adopted. —Now, although this does not directly say' that X was elected utmer false pretences, yet a legitimate conclusion might be drawn (Vom these sentences that such was the C!=e (Hear, hear.) That “ hear, hear” is an evidence that my interpretation of the langnaga is not incorrect. Now the Nelson Examiner -as are all the leading papers of the colony—is furnished with the statistics, Gazettes, Parliamentary journals, and all public accounts, and, before making such a statement, it might have taken the trouble to refer to the volumes on its own shelves to arrive at the facts correctly. I did not intend going so far back as that statement now obliges me to do, but in self-defence I must refer to documents which are open to every man in the room—printed documents, to be found in every public library m the country. Special allusion has been made to a statement made by me before I last took cilice, to the effect that the Government might be carried on for soma £2X0,000 less than was proposed by my predecessors in the session of 1865. Well, T did say so. I may Inve expressed a difference of opinion as between £240,000 and £280,001 >, but I said I believed that £210,000 could certainly be saved. At the time I made that statement I gave no promise—as it has been termed : no such promise was required. I merely advanced an. opinion, as auv member might do ; and I ask the meeting to mark the tune when that statement was made in the House. Hfc was in August, soon after the financial statement of the Colonial Treasurer, when Mr Fitzherbert proposed that £1,586,907 should bo appropriated for (ho service of the rear. I expressed that opinion before the complete estimates were brought down. Only the ordinary estimates were then laid . on the table, the estimates of the extraordinary expenditure were not then in the possession of lire House ; but when they did come down, the gross amount asked for was less than had been originally proposed, making a total of £l,-'ll 1,102. Before these estimates wore voted Mr Wold’s government resigned, and I succeeded to the government, subject to no condition ; pledged to nothing; but urged by many members to take otlico and carry on the government. This was on the 16th Oct., after nearly four months of the financial year had expired, leaving me only about eight months of the year in which to effect Diiy saving. The session was far advanced, there was no time to frame new estimates, and I took those of my predecessors, and altered them in accordance with what I thought would suffice for the requirements of the year. I only asked for £1,138.183, which was a reduction of £255 919, as the estimates will show. I hold in my hand the estimates of Mr Weld’s and of my Go-ve-ument, and anyone can satisfy himself at this moment, and can refer to public documents for the figures. But beyond this there was an actual additional saving, as during the period £16,000 less was spent than was estimated. I thus effected the saving indicated without having made any promises at all. (Hisses.) I hear some gentleman hissing. That Implies, 1 presume, distrust of my statement ; but hero are the documents —let him come and examine (hem. He has an opportunity now of proving the accuracy or otherwise of my -tatonient. and it would be far more manly and honest to do that than, by hissing, to give me the lie, for that is the virtual meaning of such expression. (Applause.) A Voice : What about the stamp duty ? Mr Siaffoed : I will come to that presently. I come here to speak fully, and I am not going to let you off. (Laughter.) As for the Stamp Duty, I told the electors of Nelson, when I last addressed them here, before the last general election, that it was exceedingly probable that I would propose a Stamp Duty and an Income Tax—that both would, in my opinion, be necessary, and no one took exception at the time. (Hear, hoar, some interruption, and a hiss.) I bog that I may not be interrupted. If anyone wishes to speak, or to take exception to what I say, he will have an opportunity when lam done. (Hear, hear.) Any question that anyone may wish to put to me I shall be glad to reply to when I have concluded. (Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding that the Colonist thought it too late for me to refer to the “Public Debts Act,” I mean to do it, and at some length too, especially as I have received- from the committee of - the Financial Reform League a list of queries, the first of which refers to that Act. As that subject is the most important, and will take up the longest time, I shall postpone it, and notice the others first. Hie Financial Reform League asks— In flic event of tlio moiety of the Consolidated Revenue accruing to a province (deductions made for General Government departmental expenses), together with its territorial revenue, being insufficient to meet the charges on its debts, out of what • fund will the deficiency bo made good; and,in particular, will the Laud Laud uf the other pfo- ' mccs be liable, under the thirteenth clause of - the Fublic Debts Act? —ln answer to this, I bare to say that the 1 Land Fund of any one province is not liable for the debts of another province. By section 46 of “The Public Revenues Act,” r it is enacted that when the ordinary rcvc= ‘ ’ auo of any province fails to provide, ’ amongst other things, for interest and sinking fund of its debt, the land revenue' ; shah be impounded to meet its liabilities. ■ Bui no law readers the Land Fund of the 1 other provinces liable for such defaulting | province. The next query is— What amount of annual burden may fairly be espcctcd to fall on the taxpayers on account of l the engagements as to pensions to which the Civil [ | Service Act has committed the colony, and what J additional liabilities would bs incurred under this “I head, were the Provincial establishments absorbed -jiato the General Government service ?

—lt is impossible to answer this question with precision. Indeed, any member of the League Committee would be able to answer it as well as I can, as the same Bounces of calculation aro open to tticui as

to me. Tiie sum ui £I,OOO was placed or* the Estimates of the present year for Pensions under the Civil Service List, a a few years it amount to £3.030

or £4,000, or perhaps to £7,000 ori £B,OOO a year; I do not think it is likely to exceed that sum, as officers retire after sixty years of age, aiici as the nu:xi= ber of officers is being reduced, 1 lienumber on the pension-list at the same time is not likely to be very large. That is my opinion ; but, as I have said, any member of the Reform Committee may answer the question for himself. The next subject referred to on the committee’s list is one respecting annual loans: — What probability exists of the cessation of the custom of contracting annual loans? —I think that question is not very creditable to the committee. A League started with such pretensions, and whose objects were so large and important, might be presumed to have made itself acquainted with facts, and with what was the actual custom. There arc no annual loans. The loans contracted by the General Government are only three in number. One in 1856, for half-a-million, to meet old liabilities which existed when the Constitution Act came into operation, and to raise £IBO,OOO to extinguish the native title in the North Island, thereby relieving the land fund of the whole colony from the liability which the Constitution Act had imposed, of being taken to purcha.-u native land. The next loan was in 1860, fur £150,000, to provide for the east of the Taranaki war. The last loan was in 186-0. for £3,000,000, to meet the expenses incurred in the native war, which had been entered into by Imperial officers during tho recess, without the Colonial Legislature having been consulted, but die cosD of which it was compelled to provide for, 1 owing to the large engagements which the | Legislature found, when it next, met, had ! been entered into. Instead, therefore, oi l annual loans being the custom, but three — or at most four — if tho £260,000 authorized, to enable the full amoun t of £3,000,000 to be received by the Treasury, is reckoned as a separate loan —have beau contracted by the General Government. The provincial loans are, nominally, twenty in number ; but one is merely a renewal of a former Wellington loan, so that nine provinces, in fourteen years, have contracted nineteen loans, or rather eighteen, inasmuch as one is of a special character, for the purchase of the Manawatu block, which land is hypothecated to pay it oil', and the loan is not a charge on tho general revenues. There are thus eighteen loans divided amongst the provinces in fourteen years, which does not show an annual custom of borrowing. In fact there have been but two loans since ISJ3, one being, as I have already stated, merely a renewal of a former loan for the same amount, and the otiier tho Nelson Waterworks Loan, to rood which special rates are levied. In respect to the future, it is for Parliament to sav what, from time to time, shall be borrowed. At the present time (here is a strong feeling against additional loans ; and only the other day the present Government refusal to advocate natt session a small loan fur Otago, which was asked for to make good tho damage caused by the recent large! floods in that Province, which is considered tho richest and most important in New Zealand. (Hear, hear.) If at any time a Province was justified in (meeting a loan, it would bo when the roads and biiJs.es to its agricultural districts hud sulfered from such a calamity as the reamt flood; but tho Government did not think fit to anticipate tho action of Parliament. While refering to the questions of loans and finance 1 may observe that while me Government receives a good deal of censure for what are deemed its faults—often very unjustly—it but rarely receives credit tor anything it may do. The present Government has voluntarily tied its hands in a way that no ether Government was re- j stricted, by the appointment of the Comp j troller of the Revenue. By tho institution of this office, the Government positively cannot spend a single shilling of the revenue without tho sanction of the Comptroller, and the public funds are thereby safely guarded from all misappropriation. Yet to tins great fact in relation to the finances of the colony I do not remember to have seen one solitary allusion made in terms of praise, except by one of the Canterbury papers j although if this had been law a few years ago, it would have prevented the spending of a large portion ot 4be Three Million Loan, which was greatly mis-spent, and would consequently have lessened the burdens which we now bear. Tho next question asked by the Committee is,

Is the revenue for toe current ilnancuil year (now in its fourth ouarler » hk«riv to fail sjnsrt of the requirements for the same loan : ifso, to what extent; and how Is it proposed to suv-piy toe- deficiency?

—i am glad to be able to say that the revenue has hitherto been sufficient for our requirements. (Hear, hear.) We have paid our war, and we hare handed to the provinces what is due to them; and although the Customs receipts will possibly be from £60,000 to £Su,OOO under the estimated amount, yet the Government has saved so much by economising within the estimates, that wo hope to be able to meet all demands, while the requirements of public service will be fully met. (Applause.) In the event of deficiency, there is, by the Public llcvenues Act, a permanent authority to raise a sum ml exceeding £60.000, to meet suras appropriated by the legislature ; but no'such power exists to raise monies for any ex-

pondituro not duly authorised by law. J.. now come to the most important question of the Committee, on a sub,-et to which 1, had intended *o refer at some length, event ;f the Committee had not alluded to it.l namely, th' 1 riddle Debts Act ;— i i Whether the assumption by the colony of thei liability for U.e interest and principal of tho pro-] vincial loans, conferring as it did an enhanced! Irii-n-KCt valuO on t’acst Ucl'caturcs, imgtit not have! been so carried O' it as ro yieoi a run 1.-i -- -to ic, v | pecuniary ailvantayo to the colony or tV- pro-| vinces, rather than to the debeature-hoUlers? | „iurk or. certain in • -nc'c'-g on th-’ parti of those who object to that Act, When the Province of Southland was unable to meet its engagements, the colony undertook its liabilities. The colony well understood that it dare not let its credit be injured by permitting Southland to be a defaulter. Southland owed between £lG;y>oo and £500,000, and its principal) creditors wore two foreign banks, the] Bank of New South Y.'ales and the Bank of Otago. W<*U, Acts were passed by the {General wsscmbW in 1565 aud 1566, [which pledged the colony to pay the debts of Southland. The action taken by the General Government and Legislature, with resp-wt to the debts of Southland, received a good deal of praise from some quarters, and no objections wore mu le to it. "O, but,” said Mr Arthur Collins on a recent occasion, “that is a very diiieront question, the cases are not analogous.” And he was right,the eases are not analogous; for while, in the ease of the Southland uebu-, the icolonr undertook to pay the debt in full !next December, in cash, with sir per cent. !interest, ami i- security imimum’.e.i only 11 he land R-vcnuo of that province ; ■in (he case of the other provinces an that the colony has by the Habile- Debts Act, undertaken to do, is to guarantee that the interests of (heir debts shell be paid. an-| nually, and that the bonds, when they shall; lv come duo years atier this shall be taken, 'up, and as security not only the land re ! venue, as in the case of Sruthland, butahoj jtlic whole ordinary revenue of the provinces was made liable. Tho colony guaranteed that for every pound’s worth oJ debentures issued, twenty shillings should be paid when they become due, which will not happen, as to some of tho debenture-, for many years, in some cases upwards of thirty years. So far by way of comparison between the two transactions, which, although not di.r imiDr in spirit, have been very differently commented on. In 1866, when. Sc-’.g'dmul was mI difficulty, every man in New Zealand I knew perfectly well that the colony coidd; not dare to allow the creditors of any pro-) vince to suffer by its default. Neituci honesty ncr wisdom would have warranted! such a proceeding ; and honesty and wis-| dom can never bo dissociated in such aj matter, if, indeed, thev ever can be. (Hear, | hear.) I will notice tho cf j ci-ms tl.aij have been nincL- t • the action taken in the] •natter. Amongst others reference hasj been made to the Hinted States of Arnet-i i ca ; and die ML ’csippi and IVnnsylva-j nian bunds have been instanoc-J to show | that New Zealand was not liable for the j debts of its provinces. There could scarcc-|

ly have been a more unhappy reference !han to America, for if America had not allowed Pennsylvania to re; • sire would not recently Lave had to jr-.v 3G per cent, premium for gold to cairy on| her war. (Hear, hear.) Nor would she have had to raise her loans mainly within herself, but could have gone into the money markets of the wo-Id. (Hear, boar.) But even if America had been a succjs-ful example, which it is not, the circumstance are quite different. It is not the senu case r.t all. The several States of He United States iJ .‘public are absolutely 1 sovtieign States, raisins their own revenues, and regulating their own debts, with which Congress cannot interclcre in the least degree,—it has no power to do so.i The interest of :ho debts of the individual; Hates is not paid out ef the revenue of llu ; United States, hut from the separate reve-l ime of the borowiug State itself, over wlhch revenue the Legi-diturc of the Uni-! ted States has no control!. Here, then, is; ihe key to the solution of Ibe whole ques tion. The individual States of America: are in matters of finance totally distinct j sovereign powers, with separate legislatures and governments, and with distinct debt? and revenues, in direct contradiction to the position of America, the rev. nue of New Zealand as a Colony, and of flic Pro- j vinces, is one and the same. The residuum of the revenue of the Colony, after defraying the charges imposed by the : General Assembly, forms the revenue of :lhe Provinces. Mo much is thus ‘lie case that (aero is rothing whatever to prevent the. Assembly from appropriating,—and no one can say that it may not toon appropriate,—the whole of the ordinary revenue of the Colony to colonial purposes. (“Hear, hear,” from Sir D. Monro and Mr Weils, and a hiss.) And not only is the portion oi its revenue whe-h is j-iveu to the Provinces subject by the Constitution Act to the ccntrc-ll and appropriation of the General Asssembiy, as being actu.-l-i ly Colonial revenue ; but in addition, i-vory,' debt of the Provinces ha? been contracted j with the consent and ly the joint action of: the Government of the Colony ; audth. ' signature of ihe Governor, riven, with the; advice of his Ministers, rquesenthig tho| General Assembly, to each JJsl l , which,! authorised the debt bcintj incurred. This; fact alone made the Provincial debts in good faith the debts of the Colony. Every member of the Legislature knew that no loan of the Provinces could be raised without the eoncutrer.ee and joint action of the General and Provincial Governments. |

Keferenco has also been made to Corporation debts, and it has been said the

Imperial Parliament (!••••* not guarantee these. Neither has the Colonial Parliament. .'J-'j-ke the ease ot the Corporation of Dunedin, and other Corporations which hare 1 got deb f s which the Assembly has not I guaranteed. Uorporation debts are charged !on special local rates, not on the General | revenues, which are not in the least liable jfor any of them. They are debts with ("li’ch theGenerd Government has nothing j to do, and therefore it very wisely does not itaka cognizance of them. Then, again, I Uaw a letter lately from Mr Sewell, in | which, amongst other things, ho refers to the Bill for securing provincial loans, brought into the House of Representatives by the Government of which he was a member, and compares it with the Public Debts Act of lust sss-don, as taking better security from the Provinces. But I am not aware that the security he proposed was better or very ditiorent from that which the Public Debts Act provides. He talks of Wasto Lands and Railways ; and the Public Debts xNct and the Public Revenues Act, taken together, although not uentioning Railways, pledge the whole ordinary and territorial revenue of each Province to meet its debts. I refer you to the 41th and -ItJrh sections of the Public Revenues Act. Nothing could be more carefully guarded than that the whole income of each Province should be liable for its debts. The Colony was a party to the loans, and the Colony dare not refuse to guarantee them. When people in good fnith purchased bonds which promised tn nay 20s. in the pound, the Colony was bound to guarantee that twenty shillings in the pound should bo paid when due There is not a man of business in this room who could continue in business and retain bis credit if he refused to take up his acceptance in full, when that acceptance came to maturity, no matter how his signature may have been obtained, no matter how the money was appropriated; there is (he document negotiated and due, and h.- would not dare to refuse payment; he ■ould not do it and remain in business, it has been advanced as a reason for not p .ring in full that some of the debentures

were s-ohl below par. Well, what then ? Ten proniis* to pay so much by a certain day, and if the discount is against you, if you pay a high rate for discounting your paper, that docs not lessen the amount you have promised f o pay when the bond falls due. (Hear, hear.) There has been a great deal said about the Bank of New Zealand, and the large profit which is supposed to have been made by that body. Ihe 1 1 atli is simply that the Bank of New Zealand held about one-tenth of the whole amount of the Provincial debentures. At the time of the passsing of the act the Bank held about £300,000 worth of Provincial debentures. The Bank bad bought the whole of their debentures at par, and re sold a portion soon a her at 103, long before the Public Debts Act was passed. The instance of debentures purchased below par does not therefore apply to the position of the Bank of New Zealand iu the miner. But. it. is said “How about the men who bought up debentures in the London market at a long rate below par?' 1 The reply to that is—How can that alfect the original acceptor who promised to pay 20;. in the pound. Even if you were to propose to pay loss thin was promised, whet rule or machinery have you got by which to fix a less price, and compel the loiui-holder to accept it. Debentures go up and down like a pair of scales from below par to above it, and vou iiavc no fixed standard by which to determine even the aveiage price amongst repeated fluctuations, even if the original promise to pay 20s. iu the pound was in the least alb-cled

'>■ base fluctuations, wiiicli it is not. ( dear, ii-.sr.) It bus been said, in very strong

language 100, that “ the Colony might have saved LdUO,OOiJ or £2t!o,OuO but it has never been shown how this saving could have been accomplished. Strong language has groat attractions for some people, and ;s olrcm in fact made to stand in place ul argument. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) It is very easy too, “ us easy as lying,” to use .-tiong language and to call names. It is not always so easy (o refrain from such language. (Hear, hear.) I do not intend to answer such language, beyond saying that those who use it might find it difficult io show how the saving they profess to think practicable could have been made. Provincial debentu-es sold at all prices, from considerably below par to three or four per cent, above par. When they asserted that £300,000 or so, might have been saved, it was a pity they did not go much further and add a few hundred thousands more. It would have been quite as easy and quito as capable of proof. Indeed, it would have been just as legal andi ns equitable to repudiate the whole of 1 het debts as to say to our creditors we shall! not pay 20s. in the pound, ami just as honest to pass an act for that purpose. A great deal of misconception exists as to the act. It is perfectly voluntary on both sides whether the Provincial bonds are exchanged or not; it is perfectly optional at this moment for the General Government to to evehange them. It is also perfectly optional to the agent of the Government who has gone home to eonsolLiate the loans, to do so or not, aud it is equally optional to the bondholder to exchange liia Provincial bonds for those oi the General Government. If no action takes place, if the bonds are not exchanged, ;he Colony is in exactly the same position as beioro the act passed. **r Ixckie No. Ntr Si affokd : 1 repeat that if no action takes place, the country is in precisely the same position as it was before the passing of the Act. Sir Lwuue : No. hli - .mavpokti : Mr Luekie will have an opportunity of showing, if ha can, how it

is not so. At all events, es y■ 'nn fiction has been taken (hat we are as yet advised Or ; arm oc : orc ecnsur.ag the Government for what may take place, they ought to wait and see what action is taken, and t licit administer censure if ft deserved censure, I have remarked that tho-e who I have upheld the course the Legislature! took, with respect to this question, have I failed to explain it in any satisfactory way.! It has been argued as against the measure j that because some of the bonds have been| purchased under par, therefore we should) jnot have undertaken to pay them iu fail; when due. lour, it tins argument were; worth anything, why nut applv t! p s:ime rule to the General Government loans.j Lor eiaaiiuo, Ihe million loan, which Mr I Reader Wood negotiated iu DGt ; the' first million of the three million loan was 1 sold for fM0,003, that is, the coh> >y got ‘ only about £SI for every £101) bond ; and the same bonds were afterwards sold by the company which pureuased them, at the still lower rat.’ of £7O per 100. Now, these bonds, widen are 5 per ceids, arenow quoted at Cti-). If, therefor'*, if was' not a proper thing to pay Provincial hood-’ in full because they sold below par. wiiv ; bind ourselves tn p,y t'no Gcn-ral G*~.v ..-i----merit bonds in full ?' (Hoar, h-ar.) Tn -roi was first a million of five per cents sold atabout£Sl ; a half mihhm of <3 per cents.! ■at from £Ol to £OS ; and another half' million at from £o.j to £O.) : and onlv the! Inst half million s >ld ivc-.mtlv of the three million loan redded LToi to £lO6. Now,’ it to pay 20s, in the pound is good with! respect to provincial stock it is equally! good with respect to the General Government stock. The fact is, (ne argument; will not hold water. The country cannot! dishonor its promise to pay. The credit! of the Colony is at M.-k’, and any sacrifice! of its honor cow will tell s.-vcrrli in the! future. A few years is" as nothing in the; life of a country. (Hear, hear, and ap-' plause.) We might sny, no doubt we have done a very foolish thing in accepting thc-i bill, and in incurring the debt (and I ana; happy to say I had nothing to do with incurring it), hut having accepted it we must take its consequence?. And now that 1 have answered—and I hope satisfies u-ily—the qu-stions of the Committee of the Ltagu-*, 1 should like to! ask what the Leagu-* is going to do. 1 • joined it with a great deal of pleasure, in-! asmucli as it was ba-ed on two fn.id.'men | tal principles with which I have always] sympathised. Ihe one, economy in the; expenditure: and the other, a changeinj the character of tin- taxation of the Co ony.i On these principles 1 have been acting j while the Reform League has been talking | (Hear, hear, and lan liter.) Four members: of the Committee hare written lour verv interesting papers, which are extremely' useful additions to the literature bearing! on the que-ti nis which they disci.rs, nna : ■vhieh 1 have peru-md with great interest.! I will say <h.s of die Nelson ILfnmj League, that while of! or 'similar Li agues I have contented them-. 1 re. 3 with declaiming| a little, some of the* members of the Nel.-onl League have ov..,lcnr!y studied carefully | the position of the import ant questions i which the League seeks to deal anil. But j tbey have not done iieailv eneuja. it; they think limy have «di antv-,1 hciond a! snail’s pace in rea-.ing papers they are! greatly mistaken. Look at what was done! by the Auti-corn-l.v.v Leagu*, how they! worked for the oljeet they sought tn ac-1 eomplish, and v. hut strong i.icts they! brought to bear on it (hear, hear), demon ; stratmg them by c.nvlut aid unceasing study and argument, if this League is tel be anything more than a disappointment! —I will not say sham, because i believe j Unit many of its members arc tv idly e-u*-1 uestiy striving to etlect some good), bur if;

it is to be am thing more than a disappointment, it has got to do a great deal ■ ore ihau it has yet accomplished; it mint do something practical ; and (tirming to the Chairman) 1 behove your ilouor occupies ! the position uf President of the League, i and you will therefore excuse iro for apostrophising you (hear, hear, and I.lighter),; and urging on yon Unit alter all I hat has been lalked ol iii connection with the League,] something more definite must bo done.; I ho nest session of the Aswmbly isap-j proachiug, aud I hope to see some advance j made by tho League in the direction ofi showing how what they desire cau be fte-| complLhed. (dear, bear.) 1 have said) that while tho League was talking I was i acting ou the two subjects which form the; fundamental basis ol the us-ociation, viz., 1 the re notion of expenditure, and changing of the mode of taxation ; and m proof of this statement i will j,uvr showy who );:»s been done in tm* war of cutting down departments, i have a return here, being a list of ail the officers who have ceased to be in the employ ol hie General Government during the last two wars doling the aOih June Lit. I took cilice on the IGth October, lbi>->. Between t r Lnh June ami the 26ih October,lour officers »-f Government had ceased to be public servant? ; ami from tho last-mentioned dale | to June, IS 57, 829 '•llicors had departed drom the puoiio sen ice. Xlic names of me ! men arc all given. 1 A \ oK’it; How many new offices did you create ? .Sir Ss.iiro3;Jsl only remcnL-r one—the office of Oomplroller of Public Kevo- : ..ues ore of ereat value to the colony.. Wiicii the Government redneed the depart- : menis, as it h.r< done, you will suppose it received hearty support, and that the reductions met with acclamation. By no means; the very revel-6 was the fact. In truth, tho people of New Zealand don’t like any economy in she Government(Hear, hear.) They write about it, aud talk m favor of it, but they don’t like it when it takes place. (Hear, hear, laughter, and applause ) To begin with, there is scarcely,

i n public officer who is remored from the I public; service who does not consider him- ; self an injured man. and who consequently iinourishes antagonistic feelings to the Goconnections end person.,! friends, there ■ will bo from 3,090 to 4,000 people »ttt>r!y disgusted with the economical action of the Government. (Dear, hear.) Of the officers whose servic's were dispensed with, some twenty were Resident Magistrates, and, with only two exceptions, the Gover.itnent did not dispense with any of rii'-se Magistrates without receiving strong ; public puili ij:.s fur tll<.-ir restora" wa and continuance in office. Imw mention one jsomewlnit amusing occurrence in conneaItion with fhe su ject. In one «f the 1 Northern provinces a Fna-ic-id Reform ’ Leigi.ie wig established, and mo--! in-gs were held and speeches made, dwelling on the necessity for reduction in the number of ( puhlio officers, and especially Resident •I -gistrates, and the same mail which ; brought the account of ibc meeting convoyed to me an application on h-half of .'■iK* ot the principal speakers iufaiorof V-c-inrnny and retrenchment, for tho aupon.fmont t > rh.* office of Resident Magistrate, vacant by 'l.c death of Major Speedy. j( Laughter.) 1 was foriunately able to indorm the applicant that the Government I'-onstum’d t!iat the cffigem-ii-s of the public jScrvma did not rc-onir-; the conii.•.•nance of :|tho office. (ileiii-, near, aid laughter.) Tho iruT’. is, ih • G->vei-nment is thoroughly latipopui.i,- and iilnis-d because of Us re■onedon m e.'ip'-u litur”. If wo discom inua ja nosial service which is not deemed liejoessury, immediately a petition is got up To m.mta'n it; it a salary is cut down, or :an office discontinued, the action is com- ■ p' lined of andstiguvuis.:,! as cheeseparing. ! Reductions oi ail kinds are unpopular. ; People like a largo Govern-nm-.t expendidure ; so my advic- is—Den t abuse vour id i comments for extra vaga nee ; abuse yourselves, The laws of a country are n o belter Than the people of the country who make Thom. (Hear, hoar.) It is not only the Genera! Governments which are pressed to spend. All the Governments, provim-i.il as well as general, are so pressed. It is well known that supplementar v estimates arc required to bo sent down Ueeauso of the continual applications, beyond the gum proposed by the Government, for more | money (or his or that district which mumi oers represent. It is not the Government, | d is the people who arc extravagant. Who I forced on the I’anama route ? The people |of New /joaland themselves. (Cries of “ No, no.") i es, i repeat, the people of .Ndnv Zealand; for Mr Whitaker’s Goverunmnt strongly opposed Mr Ward’s scheme, and Tho people of Canterbury and Wellington .;di 1. igetiier and agitated the subject, and bhe Provincial Councils of thos; provinces | undertook that it the General Government lid not provide for the service- they would do so themselves. Nearly all the newspapers supported it ; the Nelson Colonist oemg one of I he very few exceptions whi -h opp sou the scheme throughout.. Ihe Nelson L- .aininer, the Welliui'i-m papers, Hid l ii.ee of other provinces, N.u-> h and South, advocaleti the Serv-ec as an aii-olutc necessity; and it w is iim. ti.l ihepntof call was lived at Weili.ig'on, ti nt Aimk- > land and Utago, which ha I hoped to bo - made the one the inward ami Tie other - the outward port, began to throw o dJ v.at t<m the proposal. Look at the fees put the Nelson Examiner, and you will se.* I'n.ow it mivi.cared ths scheme, d’eopie aro ifon.i of Government expenditure, and do ii-ei like to sec it curtaileil, ailSi it is per tile advantage of the eou-.try that it should be. (Hear, henr.) Wf.ou I left ‘jihe Government it; 3Si.il, th.-n- was ono ■ I inter-, 1.1 oui.il and oto inu-r-pi-ovmei.al j.stca-m-r a month subsidised fir the c

.•oynuce of in\vTieu I returned io oliii'o in ISi’>s, i i .-ini:] three inter colonial services and seven services Let woon the proviaeis in each month. Ti;c first boat !l struck oil’was the boat bctwoi Xelsoa ■and Sydney. 'Ji!i o local newspapers ruled iGUt at first about tiie inj.ri tbi- «- ; n to ; b risen, until they foutid, ->ii i; I ixpech.-d 'would happen, that the boat *• mtuil •■> ir m wi-.hoat any subsidy, b.e.ir) ;i shortly after struck oil" thrm- of iho inter!provincial services. These reductions saved is*iiito T'-TOOO a year. Toe re mi.pit bo j much more saved to the colony, if the I people would really assist in the oiVbrt of I sating, iii'tead of opposing it, 1 a.a not j going to deny tne advantages of postal Services, or tne Tin".-"a m.vLv tins trirgrap!;, or the Co >k .'■'trait e.ib.e, i, e ui-,j : L think litey are all very good t cup ia their way —great advances on the pc mi' ,-ire road of civilisation, if we were m a position U aii'ird them. It might, no , doU’.it. be a very good tiling for a man ■ about to set out on a journey, to buy a iwr*e, but if he inis to horror Ice money pay for him, a. d borrow the money to feed linn, it may be far belter if ne performed me Journey on foot. (Hear, hear.) ; doc siaie ol the colony does not, warrant the expenditure of so umeh money for * snob purposes. V» e were pres-Ctl aim 1 burdv.t ot a Civil war entered bv th.* ‘ imperial nuviiofui during lac f'anliamrn--1 IVU*JS?j ‘d licit at i d 7i» tviO i lor establishing military settlors, sooi-j .steam* rs bought, ami others contracted for; and the Took Strait cal-!-, the tele- . graph, and the Panama seruotf, were ad 'entered upon a. tne worst true, as far an regards the financial nhiiay ol thr eoiouy • 'to undertake »ucii uabau.es. (([• ar, h.-nr.) , And now people express uis# it.siacu m . with me because I most find the nimev , pay for all this. There is no just re >son tor the dissatisiactioii ; fur in address:;! • the people of this place, before ibo ,ast detection, I told j';ii ..ii wait you -ia 1 )0 n cxt ect —thbt there would must pro&abtj i be more taxes reipured. [T® t)9 concluded ia our ant.]