Provincial Council.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume XII, Issue 520, 21 October 1867, Page 1

Provincial Council.

TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBEH. The Council met at 3 o’clock. Present, — The Speaker and all tbs members. xno minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. PAPERS. His HONOR the Superintendent laid on the table copies of the Public Debts Act, an Act to authorise the £7,000,000 loan, and an Act regulating the receipts and expenditure of the Colony; also further correspondence with the Bank of New Zealand. The latter was ordered to be printed. PAYMENT OF COUNTRY MEMBERS. Mr BUCHANAN moved—

That it be. an instruction to the Committee of Supply to make no provision for the payment of country members.

—At the last sitting of the Council this amount was omitted from the Estimates ; ho had heard from some of the members that this was done intentionally, to be used by the Government as a means of coercion. At all events the Estimates in this form received the sanction and fiat of his Honor the Superintendent. The item was subsequently inserted on the motion of the member for Waipuknrau. He had now been personally charged with delaying the business of the council in order to receive this small sum a few days longer. He did not choose to sit and be exposed to such taunts, but would use every endeavour to get the item struck out. In no other Colony in these seas was such an allowance made. [Mr Okmond : How about Melbourne ?J It was not made in Melbourne, He had seen the evil of its not being made; but New Zealand was the only Colony that adopted it.

Mr LOCKE seconded the motion pro forma. Mr CARLYON said that the bon. member admitted that he did not agree with the principle of his motion, but had brought it forward in consequence of a passage of amis with the member for Po rangahau, in which he got worsted, lie considered that the majority of the members sustained a loss by being absent from their homes during the busiest portion of the year, and should onpose the motion. Mr TANNER said the lion, member for the Country Districts did not say anything against the principle of the Bill. He considered the slight thrown upon that gentleman by the member for Porangahau as unworthy of him, and he believed all who heard the remark made were sorry for it. It was a remark let fly in the heat of the moment, and the hon. member would have done better to have treated it with the contempt it deserved. Certainly ho had repaid the hon. member with interest for the dirt thrown at him. It was a fair quid pro quo , and neither gentleman had any fair ground of complaint. The member for the Country Districts no doubt thought himself justified in delaying (he bill when he knew of the petition ; but be (Mr Tanner) thought the member for Porangahau really believed that chat gentleman had no legitimate ground for his opposition, and that his saying he wanted time was a mere ruse. He hoped the member would withdraw his motion.

Colonel WHITMORE said he hoped the member for Porangahau would express his regret for the expression which had rankled in the hon. member’s mind. He hoped that what was done in Australia would not be taken as a precedent for New Zealand, for he thought the New Zealand people were as good as the Australians, or a few degrees better. He should oppose the motion.

Mr ORMOND would not have spoken had not a direct appeal been made to him. He had only followed the example of the member for To Aute, in speaking of things that were said outside the Council. It was only about two days before that the member for the Country Districts had said “ If I had any charges against the member for Borangahau, the Council knows me well enough to know that I would have made them to his face.” Yet, soon after this, he heaped upon him a number of grossly personal charges. The inference was that the hon. gentleman lived in a place where he got his information very suddenly. His own words were sufficient to condemn him. He (Mr Ormond) thought that the allowance was insufficient for the expenses of the country members, but if the allowance was not made they would not come. To force these gentlemen to a vote on the subject was placing them in a false position. It appeared to him that the hon. gentleman’s motion went one way and his speech another. He thought all that had been said might as well have been in Committee of Supply.

Mr A’DKANE said that the object of the hon. member in bringing this matter before the house was to secure to himself the privilege so much prized by the other sex—the last word, or right of reply. He thought it would have been more discreet and courteous on the part of the member for the town not to have seconded the motion, but to have let it die a natural death. He was not surprised at the course the hon. member had taken to vindicate himself from the charge of the member for Porangahau. He considered it was the only one open to him under the circumstances. vVitb regard to the allowance, he considered it was very insufficient. He should rather vote for its increase than for its abolition, and trusted that no country members, from false delicacy, would support the motion. He wished he had a

Latin proverb to finish with, but as be had not, be would use au English one. If the country members supported this motion, they would “ cut off their nose to be revenged on their face.” Sir BUCHANAN, in reply, said he had

brought this motion forward to vindicate the honour of gentlemen around. If they did. r.rif; l.hinlr t.Hpjr was *»(; fltliks. he could not help it. lie would press the motion. The motion was then put and lost. ROAD THROUGH 70-MILE BUSH. Major LAMBERT brought up the Report of the Committee on tho 70-mile Bush road, and moved that it be read. Agreed to. Major LAMBERT moved that it be printed. Mr M'LEAN objected, as he considered that it was a needless expense. Mr BUCHANAN said it was only in regular course to have the report printed. It was a necessary preliminary to the consideration or adoption of the report by the house. As it stood it was not the report of the Council, but merely of the five gentlemen who formed the committee, and it was treating their committee very cavalierly to object to print the report. Any opposition to the mere printing of a report was most unusual.

Major LAMBERT was not prepared for any opposition to this motion ; he looked upon the printing of a report as a matter of course. [Hear, hear.] This report was drawn up after due investigation, and should not be thrown aside. It really seemed as if a section of the Council wished to burke the report of their select committee. He trusted no further objection would bo made. [Mr Oumo.nu : The Government have no objection, except that it is a needless waste of public money.] He certainly bad not expected any speeches on this motion, ami must confess his surprise at the course the Go vernment had adopted.

Mr BUCHANAN said that in the Ge neral Assembly it was the practice to print every document that came before them, unless sufficient cause to the contrary was shown. It was looked upon as a matter of course, and a motion for printing was always passed without comment.

Mr RHODES said the Government had no objection to the printing of the report. The motion was then agreed to. HORSE NUISANCE BILL.

Colonel WHITMORE moved that the Horse Nuisance Bill be read a second time. Considerable discussion ensued, and the general opinion of the Council being that the bill was impracticable, it was withdrawn. LOAN APPROPRIATION. Mr BUCHANAN said that after the correspondence which had been laid before the Council, no public purpose could be served by carrying this bill any further. He would therefore move for leave to withdraw it. Leave granted. The Council then (6 p.m.) adjourned to 7.30. SUPPLY. The Council met at 7.30, and went into Committee of Supply. MR. ASHTON’S PETITION. Mr WOOD moved that the report of the Provincial Engineer on Mr Ashton’s petition be read. Agreed to, and read accordingly. [The report stated that the actual damage sustained was very slight; that if this claim was allowed, many others, much better grounded, would be brought forward; and concluded with a recommendation that a source of private profit shouldpaot be made out of a public calamity.]

TOLLGATE BILL. The Council then wont into committee on the Tollgate Bill. Mr Buchanan drew the attention of the committee to the resolution of the day before, that some other tax should be substituted, and protested against suspending the standing rules and orders to rescind the resolution. Mr \ydod declined acting as chairman, being personally interested in the bill, and almost every member was proposed to take his place, but all declined. The committee was therefore postponed till the following day. Major Lambert giving notice that he would then move that the resolution moved by the member for Havelock, be rescinded. SLAUGHTER-HOUSE BILL.

This bill was then passed through committee and reported as amended to the Speaker, and the third reading was made an order for next sitting day. The Council adjourned at 10.30 p.m.

WEDNESDAY 16th OCTOBER The Council met at 3 p.m. Present, — The Speaker and all the members except M r Weston. APPOINTMENT OF NEW CLERK. The SPEAKER stated that the Clerk was unable, from illness, to attend. On the motion of Major Lambert, seconded by Mr Sutton, Mr Hamlin was appointed Clerk pro. tem. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. COUNCIL LIBRARY. Mr CARLTON drew the attention of the Speaker to the inconvenience arising from the volumes of statutes not being properly arranged, and suggested that a shelf should be put up for their accommodation.

Col. WHITMORE complained that the library was sometimes used as a committee , room, so that members had no access. Dui ring the recess it was open to all comers, and volumes had even been taken away. 1 The SPEAKER said he was quite pre- : pared to carry oat any suggestion that would involve only s moderate cost.

PET i i oiliooi.Oi.NS. M-ijor LAMBERT moved — That this Council is of opinion that It is expedient that the Petty Sessions Act, ISO >, should hill rough t into operation so far as concerns the Electoral District of the Province of Hawke’s Bay, other than the districts lying to the northward of the Ngaruroro River. —His reason for bringing this motion before the Council was that there many gentlemen who were very fond of the J.P. to their name, but did not care to perform the duties of their office. The Petty Sessions Act would keep these gentlemen to their duties. Appeal could be made to the District Judge, who would meet the magistrates once a quarter, and the system would be much less expensive than appeal to the Supreme Court. The population of ilia district approved of tho proposed alteration.

Mr CARLTON seconded the motion. This was one of the most useful Acts the New Zealand Government had ever passed. Mr Stafford had stated that he had applied to the nine provinces to know whether they were favorable to the Act being pul in force, and the only Province from which he had received a favorable answer was Auckland. This confirmed his (Mr C.’s) opbiion that Auckland was the most sensible Province He wished to know to whom in Hawke's Bay this application had k een made, for lie believed nine out of ten of the magistrates would be favorable to the Act coming into force ; and he thought it would prove a great blessing. In the 12th clause it was provided that “ Justices not attending to their <l,;lies shall bo removed from the commission of the peace.” For that clause alone he should like to see the Act enforced. He should like the District Court to be the Court of Appeal. [lie continued at g r eat length with reference to the Supreme Court, saying that, with the exception of one case, all that the Supreme Court had ever done coul 1 have been done by the District Court at much less expense.] Mr ORMOND would support the motion if it was confined to limited districts. For instance, it would be too far to drag people from Porangabau to petty sessions at Waipawa. He would move as an amendment—

That this Council is of opinion that it is expedient that the Petty Sessions Art, ISGii, should bej brought into operation so far as concerns the Pro-' vineial Electoral Districts of the Province of Hawke’s Bay, known as the districts of Waipuku-j ran, Te Ante, and Hampden, and that the Speaker ] be requested to forward this resolution to the Colonial Secretary.

—His Honor the Superintendent could answer the question of the member for Te Aute with reference to the reply given to Mr Stafford. He could not agree with that member us to the respective value of the two Courts, though he believed that the District Court, which only cost £l5O a year, was of great benefit to the Proviuce. He would bo sorry to sec any action taken to put a stop to the sittings of the Supreme Court.

Mr A’DEANE would support, the| amendment. He thought the Act would j be very satisfactory to the people. | Mr M'LEAN cordially agreed with the 1 amended motion, and considered it very desirable that Justice of the Peace should no longer be an empty title, but that the office should have diuies as well as privileges. It was he who had given Mr 'Stafford the answer referred to, and his reason was that there were many natives in a very unsettled state in the various districts. He looked upon the member for Te Auto’s attack on the Supreme Court with great regret, and considered that it was the duty of every Englishman to uphold the Supreme Court to the best of his ability. Mr CARLYON explained that he had not attacked the Supreme Court; neither had he attempted to weaken its influence. He had merely tried to dispense with a superfluous form.

Major LAMBERT said the amendment of the member for Ponnigahau met all that he could desire. He was glad the ; Superintendent had explained how it was we had not had Petty Sessions before, but he thought it would have been only right to have made the magistrates acquainted with the nature of his answer. He thought too much respect could not be paid to the Supreme Court, the highest legal tribunal in the Colony. Subsequently an amendment was moved by Mr Buchanan that the words “Meanee and Havelock ” be added to the motion. Major Lambert objecting, a divi-ion took place with the following result: — Ayes, 11—Messrs. M'Lean, Kennedy, Ormond, Buchanan, Locke, A’Deane, Tanner, Carlyon, Dolbel, Wood, and Parsons. Noes, 2—Messrs. Rhodes and Lambert. Mr CARLYON moved that the Speaker be requested to forward the resolution to the Colonial Secretary. Agreed to. TELEGRAPH STATION. Mr CARLTON moved That Mr Speaker be requested to forward to the Colonial Secretary the resolution of tiis Council in favor of a Telegraph Station being erected at Waipawa in preference to Waiputnrau. The motion was agreed to after a very long discussion.

GOVERNMENT LEASES. Mr CARLYON moved That the Provincial Solicitor shall not be entitled ex officio to charge purchasers of land leased from the Government with the costs of the lease and counterpart. —A practice had latelv arisen for the Government to lease laud from the native owners, and lease it again to the public. They were again leased on condition that the lease was taken from the Provincial solicitor, without reference to any other person whatever. Now he found that the Provincial Solicitor was in the habit of charging the public who leased these lauds not only with the cost of the lease, but of the counterpart as well, and that these fees went into his own pocket. He did complain of that gentleman getting the oyster, but he certainly objected to him getting the shells as well, and his digestion was strong enough for anything. This was a most enormous addition to that gentleman’s salary. He hoped that in future the practice of making the public pay for the counterpart would be discontinued.

Mr M'LEAN said the Government would issue instructions that no charge should be made for the counterparts in future. Air BUCHANAN said he had never heard of the costs of leases and counterparts being both borne by one side. In England even tbe costs of the stamps were divided.

The motion, after seme further discussion, was negatived on a division, and the Council adjourned to 7 30 p m. CARPENTERS’ WORK. Mr TANNER moved— For a return of all carpenters’ work done for the Provincial Government, from Ist July, ISG6, to 30th June, ISiiJ ; whether done by contract [or otherwise; by whom done, and what amouutsi have been paid. His HONOR laid the papers on the table. RESCINDING OF RESOLUTION. Major LAMBERT moved— That the resolution passed yesterday on the motion of the member for Havelock be rescinded. After a long and tedious discussion, in which nearly all the members took part, the motion was agreed to on the following division : Ayes, B—Messrs M'Lean, Rhodes, Kennedy, Tanner, A‘Deane, Parsons, Lambert, Whitmore. Noes, G Messrs Irvine, Sutton, Dolbel, Wood, : Buchanan. Locke DOG NUISANCE ACT.

Mr TANNER brought up the report of tho Committee on the Dog Nuisance Bill, which recommended that the bill should be referred to the Provincial Solicitor. WAYS AND MEANS. The Council then resolved itself info Committee of Ways and Means, and afterwards into Committee of Supply. TOLLGATE BILL. The house went into Committee on the Tollgate Bill. Several amendments were moved by various members. Mr Carlyon made a long speech on every clause that came under consideration, complaining that they were badly drawn, ungrammatical, Ac. He confined himself, however, to pointing out •he parts to which he objected, and did not move amendments. He also repeatedly expressed his wish to know whether or not the Provincial Solicitor was responsible for the drawing of the Act. The first eleven clauses haring been passed through Committee, progress was reported, the Speaker resumed the chair, and-the house adjourned at l - 40 a.m.

THURSDAY, 17th OCTOBER. The Council met at 5 p.ra., and on the motion of Mr Buchanan, adjourned for half an hour. The Council met at half-past 5. The minutes of the last meetiug were read and confirmed. BREACH OF PRIVILEGE. Mr CARLYON said tint no one had a greater respect for the privileges of the press than himself, except when it descended to wilful misrepresentation. A case of this kind had occurred, which heL could not look upon otherwise than as aj ; breach of privilege He would not care if he was not reported at all, but he objected to be misrepresented. In the Hawke’s Bay Times of that morning he found it staled that “ great opposition was offered to the bill, principally bv Mr CarIvon.” Every person who had heard the debates or read the reports knew that there was not in the Council a more strenuous supporter of the bill than himself. .Nothing could have been clearer than the manner in which he had pointed out that though he gave the bill his full support, yet he objected to the loose manner in which the clauses had been drawn. He had distinctly stated that his object was to , see if the Provincial Solicitor did any work for his money, and hero he had been made to say that ho opposed the principle . of the bill. If the reporters could not do 1 their work better than this he should draw > the attention of the Speaker to the fact that there were strangers in the gallery ; but when he considered the very distinct manner in which he had always expressed himself with regard to this bill, he could not look upon this report in any other > light than that of a deliberate and unfair i misrepresentation. i Mr WOOD said that he was very sorry ■ that the member for Te Ante had made ? any charge of unfairness against the reporters. Ho was perfectly satisfied that there

was no such thing as deliberate misrepresentation in tile report. The Course that gentleman took in committee, making long speeches in which he found fault with every clause of the bill, was very apt to mislead any person listening to him, especially a young reporter. It was easy to see how the mistake arose. The hon. member had threatened, should any such mistake again bo made, to clear the house of strangers. He could speak from his own knowledge that reporting was a most arduous and exhausting kind of toil, and he believed that the reporters would only bo too glad should that gentleman take the course he had suggested.

APPROPRIATION ACT. Mr M‘LEAN moved for leave to bring in a bill to be intituled the “Appropriation Act, 1867.” Leave was granted, the bill was brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time next sitting day.

CIVIL SERVICE ACT. Mr WOOD moved— That this Council, having had before it the Civil Service Act of New Zealand, resolves that the claims of officers of the Provincial Service of Hawke’s Bay, whose services have been dispensed with since it passed, ought to be dealt with in conformity with its provisions. The motion was withdrawn after much discussion. TOLL-GATE. The Council went into committe on the To ligate Hill. Several clauses were recommitted, and further amendments made, and the Chairman reported the Bill ns amended to the Speaker. The third reading was ordered for next day. The Council adjourned to 7 - 30. SLAUGHTER-HOUSE BILL. The Council met at 7'30. Tha Slaughter-house Hill was read 8 third time and passed. SUPPLY. The Council then went into Committee of Supply, and the Estimates being passed* adjourned at 9 45.

FRIDAY, 18xu OCTOBER. Tee Council met at 3 o’clock. The minutes of the last meeting wereread and confirmed. STANDING RULES AND ORDERS. Mr A'DEANE brought up the report of the Committee ou Standing Rules and Orders, and moved that it be read, which was agreed to. [The report recommended that the new standing rales and orders should be printed and distributed among members during the recess, in order that they might have full opportunity to study them and suggest alterations.j CREDIT BILL. Mr M'LEAN moved For leave to bring in a Bill to authorise ths Provincial Treasurer to take credit for certain charges. Leave granted, bill brought up and read a first time. AUDIT COMMITTEE. Mr BUCHANAN moved that the report of the Audit Committee be read. Agreed to. [The report simply recommended the re-appointment of the Committee next session.] NEXT MEETING OF COUNCIL. Mr BUCHANAN moved— That this Council is of opiuion that its next meeting ought to be fixed for a date not later than the loth May. —Ou the assurance of his Honor that the suggestion would be carried into effect the motion was withdrawn. PETITION. Mr KENNEDY presented a petition from certain cab-drivers, with reference to (he subsidy to Cobb and Co.’s coaches.— Read and received. GRANT TO GOVERNMENT. Mr ORMOND moved in Committee of Supply —

The Superintendent requests the Provincial Council to grant the sum of £571 14s. id., to i meet the outstanding and unauthorised expenditure for the year ended June 30, ISG7, the said unj authorised expenditure having been incurred on ;aocouut of the services herinalter mentioned;—

Agreeu i-u, REPORT ON 70-MILE BUSH. On the motion of Major LAMBERT this report vv.is adopted. TOLLGATE ACT. The Tollgate Act was read a third time and passed. On the motion of Mr ORMOND, the Council adjourned at 5 p.m. to '7'3o, to give the Government time to prepare the Appropriation Act. , APPROPRIATION AND CREDIT ACTS. The Council met at 7'30. The Standing Orders were suspended, ; 9 nd the Appropriation Act and afterwards • the Credit Act were read a second time, , , ;o ~~jttod. read a third, time, and passed*

PRORO J ATION. HisITOXOR said that iu closing the session bo had to thank those honorable gentlemen who hud, at great inconvenience, left their homes, many of them at a considerable distance, for the unremitting attention they had shown to their duties He considered it highly creditable to the Province that to large a number of gentlemen could be i'ouud Lo eauiiuCo their tim* and convenience for the public eerrice. He was pleased to think that should Provincial institution:; be dissolved, of which there appeared some probability, there would still be found a sufficient number of public-spirited men to carry on the business of the various districts. Thankinar the for their attendance and attention, he declared the Council to stand prorogued.

IVairoa District Hoads £1-26 6 4 Town Roads 91 0 2 Harbour Purposes ... 9 15 4 70-mile Bush Road 64 16 0 Middle Road 64 16 3 Mohaka Bridle Track 29 11 0 Taupo Road 39 5 0 Road Contingencies 8 5 0 Opening mouth of the Wairoa River 14 14 0 Papakura or South Meanee Road 103 13 a Hikutoto Road la 11 6 £571 14 i