Provincial Council.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume XII, Issue 518, 17 October 1867, Page 1

Provincial Council.

[ THURSDAY, 10th OCTOBER. The Speaker took the chair at. d o’clock. Present., —The Speaker and uli tho members. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed, RESIGNATION OE SPEAKER.

The SPEAKER said ho had to inform (lie Council of his adoption of a course ho had felt as the only one he could creditably take. He knew that the usual-hour ot meeting; was nominally 3, mid the usual hour of the evening; sitting win nominally 7, but very few of the members were pu actual, and he had made it a practice to allow considerable latitude, so that practically (he hour of adjournment was half past 7. On entering the Chamber lust evening at 7'20 ho was surprised to find another gentleman in possesion of the chair, and n> ithat gentleman showed no signs of leaving 'that position ho (the Speaker) l-.fc the 1 Chamber. On bearing afterwards that the house was in committee he had returned land fulfilled his duties through perhaps jone of the most arduous evenings that the Council had ever sat. The duiies of the Speaker were alwaysarduons; other mem bers might leave the house, but the Speaker must keep hia seat until the Council adjourned. lie felt it strongly, that although I ten or twelve members were present, nut one voice was raised to prevent the indignity to which he was subjected, and that, too, in the presence of a full strangers’ gallery. He would not have taken the course Ihe had done if, on entering the Chamber, j the Council had madetheffi«<?/i(/e honorable, and had resigned the seat to nim, but this not being the case he felt hmise.f driven to the course he had adopted, lie now placed his resignation in (he hands of the DeputySuperinti ndent, and by his own authority adjourned the Council for one hour (till half past four.) Mr DL’CHANAN questioned the right of the Speaker to adjourn the Council.

The Si'E-AKER said that ti.e treatment he had been subjected to warranted him even in iclmg unconstitutionally. The Couneil then adjourned lor an hour.

The Council re-assembled at -Tit) p.m. ■ ELECTION or XIMV STEALER ami cTI.ilUi MAN UP COMMITTEES, j The Id EFL T T Y- S U LTM UN T UNDENT 'said that lie had received and accepted the I | residual ion oi'the .Speaker, and that it had: been notifi dto him that dir TiIMLX: i had been elected Speaker, mid dir WOOL) [Chairman of Committees. I | Oi.i.' t'lou Ticwoo A.. Is Oil. 'j-oi'V : Mr A' I.ll'-AXid move.! tin- suspension ofi : Standing Rules and Onhes Xus. gd am j| _7. He wished to move far a seleel com-1 inittce to draw up new standing rue s and! orders for the Council, so .e to pivve t tie-! iue-ssant reference to the bulky volume j 'which was supposed to be tin ir guide. 11. 1 intended to include in tli- committee iliu-ci members who, from their experience i Isewliere, were the best qu.i.im-d T« seed a task The motion being nllirm.-d, be moved ! .• —‘ That a Committee be appointed to :e-j vise li.e Standing Kales and Outers ot the! 'Conned—such Commit: c to consist ot dhssrs. Whitmore, Ormond, 'Wood, d. mb i t. and the mover.” dJ r KENNEDY was surprised at the mime of the member for the Com try Dis- . triots —(he gentleman most a.-.p. iinte t wr h ;the subject —being omitted ii.-nj tiic com inittee. Lie should propose that ids muiu be added. i Mr TANNER seconded tl :e m.tion. j Mr BUCHANAN stid that had hi> ;name been originally include,i in toe. motion he might have served on the commit* jteo ; but, as it had been purposely omitted, he should positively decline | Mr A’DEANE said that he had originTally included the lion, g-nitleman’s name, but lud withdrawn it on the suggestion ol other members, as the action of me committee would bo principally in consequence ■jof the course that gentleman had taken during the last few days.

Colonel WHIXMOKE said that lie had. cd vised the member for Hampden lo strike; out the hon. gentleman’s nuu'.e, as his ae I tion in the Council was not so much upkeep order as to take other uieuibcis at a ( disadvantage, lie had refused to sit ouj the committee if that gentleman's name was retained. Mr ELCHAXAX said it was hardly just to attempt to force him into acjimnit tee to which he had shown such a deaden repugnance. lie should have been glau to have given his assistance had he bee: requested in good faith; but the inter meddling busy-Lodyism of the member I'm Wairoa had shown him that it would b. of very litilo u,-e. Xo doubt some of tin members would like to git rid of the book] by which they were guided—to place it in I he “index Expurgatoriu-,” as not fit lor [them, though it was the result of ages oi legislation, and founded on the strictest I rules of common sense. lie would reminu I them that anything which they might no! 'settle iii their proposed vo.d? rnrcuiji w uiidl have to be settled by the rudng of the (Speaker, and that they would be estab;fished, as precedents, and could not be altered except by a vote of the Council. Mr KENNEDY withdrew his motion, but must siill express his regret at the hou. member’s refusal. PETITION. Mr WOOD presented a petition signed by 74 electors of Napier, praying that the Council should adopt soma other method

jof taxation tin ■ 'hut of the proposed toll-, .gait, He said !o: iiaH carefully compare*!, tile names with the el •etiji’iu roll, ami that The .signatures were all those of load j"de\ electors. j The SPEAKER drew the attention of| the member to a standing order providing] that no petition should have reference to | any debate, or any motion before tho Council. ’1 bis petition was out of order, as it referred to a biii iimu before the house. Mr WOOD said the same objection had boon made by the member for Waipukurau to a ’petition having reference to the CVmctery Bill, but had been over ruled by 'die gentleman then occupying the chair. dome further discussion took place, certain members suggesting that the gentleinr 1 who introduced the petition should erase certain words in order to make the petition admissible, but this he refused to do without tile permission of those who had signed it. Mr Buchanan sail when Reform and olhe- popular bills were before the House of Commons their tables were loaded with petitions having direct reference to the bills before the house. He

said tho right of petition, provided the language used was respectful, was the most ancient 1; .lit of a British subject, and a right admitted by any Government —even by auioer.ta. The petition was ultimately ruled to be out of order. CAB AND CART ACT.

Mr DOLBIiL asked (tie Government— M licther it is their intention to introduce this session a Cab ami Cart Act.

A tax on cabs and ends would be the only means of reaching tnoso to whom the wear and tear of the roaas was in a great measure owing. Mr ORMOND said the course would be a very proper one, and the CfoVenimen! would give the lion, gentleman every assistance in their power. TRUNK LINKS OF ROAD. Mr SUIToN asked the Government— If they will lie prepared to bring iu tins session any Act to compel country settlers to contribute towards liui ii.aiiilenaiiee of la.iiu trunk line.- in a areal,a extent limn they rut possi.jiy do by tne Luilgate Act now be.ore tins Council. -Mr UR MO.hi) could not see any method by which tla- eouid be earned cat. Tin ree.'ipis ir..in a tulib.ir would ceriuinly not oe sutiicient. ROAD TO TALTO. air IEVR.SUNS, in the absence of Mr Locke, asked V. I.:--her the (Jovernmeiit Intend to employ any pari ul tne sum alloaiied to roads in the Loan Appmpnafarn, so as to open up a Inhiic to the L'aupo .md oilier districts in the iutvrior. Air Oit MO\ D sard <hat the (Tavernment iniended to apply a part of tne loan mi this direction. INSURANCE OR GOVERNMENT iRTLDINGS. Air LAMBERT moved— Tim: tiie Government will be pleased to lay oa the table a return shewing such of the Gav.-ni-m *.;t buildings wnieli are insured and tliose are uni, and also to state? it uhe Goveniiiieat lea.iiisure.l or have eausen ihn Tra-iees to insure lire Government schools in tire LVoviaec. MrpiRAIOXL) laid the return on the mine.

Major LAMIIEH P urged on the Go* vermnent toe necessity of insuring all I heir ui. in sliced building*, and requiring ’-he tru-tees of schools to do the same. MEANTE LeiIdAXK.M EXT. Major LAMBERT moved—

That the Government will inform tie; Council ;1 the i nibaiiknane. now h-.ng earrbT on imar ami above the Menace Triage has been ordered by the Government ; and, if so, wU-Uier tne saneiion of

I hid Council lias hvu obtaoi.’il for ilk- <n;t!..v. llus motion MiiUeiemly spoke for itself. Mr UK.fiU.i!) said that Hie embankments near the bridee were considered by tin Provincial Engineer necessary for its safety. The euib.mkmentd higher up the river were being c instructed at the most vulnc: able p ;r:s if the bank. A gentleman ■lamed Rjsj, a tie..oral Government surveyor, who had been employed in laying out telegraph lines, had generously place a Ids services in taking levels, &c., gratuitously, at the disposal of the Government. Major LAMIS EitT said that these wo>ks had somewhat alarmed him, and h:s alarm was not dispelled when it oozed out that (hoy were being undertaken for tile benefit of ihc Papakura Eiock. He was certainly glad that the Government surveyor was working for nothing, as the works would otherwise bo quite expensive enough ; hut he remembered an occasion, not long ago. " hen a volunteer surveyor, who he .-up posed iiad been working gratuitously, sent m a lidie bill fur EiuO. -t he cJii. ct of the work now going on would very probably be that at tile next iluous tne water would be thrown over the opposite bank into .dcanee. Then there would b a great cry of, *• You aid it! ” and an unlimited iiuinucr of applications for compensation, li, ;

wondered the common sense of the Go vermnent did not tell them that an env Oiiuki.iciit was no use; that the water worked under the bank, and not above the siu'lacc. lie thougnt toe Deputv-ciup. rinUndeiit siiould have paid a personal visit iO me s,*oi, as ne believed there uas nune in hand tnere than the Government were aware of. HIGHWAYS ACT. On the motion of Mr ORMOND, the Highways Act was discharged from the order paper. SHEEP BRANDING ACT. The Sheep Branding Act was read a second time alter a long discussion, principally as to whether or not tur or paint

nrands deteriorated the quality of the wool. I iii- Council wen! into committee on the •un, ti;;U tin,' principal clause being struck out, Mr Tanner withdrew it. DOG NUISANCE ACT. This Act, on the motion of Mr Tanner, was read a second time; and the Council adjourned at 9 - 30 p.m.

FRIDAY, lltii OCTOBER. The Council met at the usual hour. Present, —The t-'peaker and all the members except Messrs. Tanner and Carlyon. The minutes of the last meeting were read and continued. DETENTION OF THE SUPERINTENDENT. His HONOR the Superintendent said that he should explain the reasons why he had been detained in Wellington so much longer than ho expected ; but he might say they were of vital importance to the Province. It was lully expected that the important general finance measures of the House of Representatives would have met with the support of the Legislative Council, but several members of that body having left for their homes, the remainder of them threw the bills out by a majority of two. A deadlock ensued—several members were telegraphed for from the Middle Island—conferences were held, for several days without any result. At length, by mutual concession, the matter was arranged, and t!ie business resumed. He hud to remain till these matters were settled, in order to make necessary financial arrangements for tiie Province. These arrangements had only been completed at ten minutes to ten on the night he left Wellington. He laid on the table correspondence connected with his financial arrangements, and moved that it be read. Read, and ordered to be printed. PETITION. Mr WOOD presented a petion from 93 Hectors of me Town of Napier, prating that some other tax should be subsli'uted in place of the proposed toiigate. He explained that the petition was the same as the one presented yesterday, with the exception that the objectionable clause had been .-truck out, ana id additional signatures obtained. He moved that the petition ue read.

The petition was read and received without opposition. Mr \VOul> moved that the petition bo printed. M ij jf LAMEERT said that the petition was irregular. lie Hi. uld opposo its being printed, a;ul >.;vulo upon it, . .stood mono, it should never have been IVC.-iv. li [ The cit'i-.'AJsER said tho mciuber was out of order die had no right to question ihe tleci -i j;i of the Council. Major HAMiiJ'.KT s ad that out of tho copulation of Napier there was only 92 signatures. He regretted that the petition i.ad be<-a re;- t ivod. He thought it should not be aliowcit to have any weight, as it hud no iiu r.i right to be received to-day than yest.-i ,t-iy Mr WCMjJ : I rise to order. I submit that this is. not the time to disetus thb merits of the petition. The question be«. 1' -re too house is that tho petition be printt d. Th.' SPEAKER thanked tho member for Havelock for drawing Iris attention to the fact. He ruled that the member for \Va:pukur;-.u was out of order. lie intended to keep the members strictly to the riih-s, as it was the o.iiy way to prevent tho Council Ir.-m falling into a state of chaos. M ijor i. AM JLi r.Ki had no intention of vi tiling the rules of the house. Ha nniiniained ti.at the petition was one-sided, and that the other side siiouid also be heard. The up-country settlers had no idea of the petition, and he considered that they were far more interested iu the matter than the people of Napier. Jio did not approve of members of the Council calling public meetings at four or sis hours’ notice, and quieily getting up peti- - ions.

Mr WOJD: I must again rise to order. JL’his has nothing to do with the question before the house, that the bill be panted. \Lij >r LA Mil hit'!' considered ho was perfectly m order. Mr in nor a should not rise witliout cause. It was something now in the proceedings of tue Conned, and should not bo repeated. lie maintained that the bill ougnt not to be printed. Hiere were bO or 100 signatures. With a counter petition he could bring three or four tinu-s as many names against it. Ho gave the member for Havelock credit for the persevering manner m which he had resisted this bn), but lie hoped the Council would not allow the petition to be printed.

Mr A - 13 CANE said if it- was not necessary before the petition could be considered, he should oppose the prim big as an unnecessary expense. He wished it to receive ail due consideration, and niiouid be sorry 10 upset it for the sake cf a. form. The SPEAKER said that the fact of a petition being received by the bouse was sUllijK'i'.t to warrant a motion tor Us con* fUierati.-n, without its being printed. Mr IANNEii regretted that he had not been present in lime to protest against its i eeeuiion.

Mr BUCHANAN said that the member for Waipukuruti had argued that because th.a petition was signed by only 90 or 100 electors, that it was not worth the constderation of tire house ; and had also accused the gentleman who introduced it with Having hurried it. He luily admitted the hurry, but at whoso door did the blame lie ? At the door of those who attempted

fq force the bill through hi such a rapid and unseemly manner. He hi itself, and he would answer for the member for Have* lock, would give the foiled opportunity to repair their error, it the Council would nn'lv defer the bill. They would give them the fullestopportunity to prepare a counterpetition —give them time, —a week or a month, or even let them name their own tone,. —and tVy could n it well go farther than that. They would treat them with more consideration than the Government had treated him, 'when they relVscd bis application ijv more time. xu«y v. vuiu wicn see how very willing the majority ot the town and country electors woiud bo to petition for a burden to be placed on their own shoulders.

The SPEAKER- objected to a loud conversation going on between one of the Te Ante members and the member for Waipukurau in a line between him and the lion, member for the Napier Country Districts. It was contrary to the rules of the house for any member to intervene between the Speaker and the gentlcman addressing him. Major LAMBERT apologised. lie had not been aware he was in that position, Mr CAELYON : Where do you find that rule ? The SPEAKER : In May. Mr CAB LYON ; What "have we to do with May ? May is no authority in New Zealand. I won’t be governed by May.

The SPEAKER: If the Council follows the example of the member for Te A ute, and sets aside the authority of May, it had better cease to be a legislative body, and resolve itself into a bear-garden, if two men.bars are allowed to enter into a loud conversation directly between the Speaker and the gc-uth-man who address .s him, nothing but a state of chaos caul ensue. 1 have been guaranteed the gup-' port of the Council, and I shall rule in accordance with Ray and the Standing Rules and Orders. This is the only way in which the deliberations of the Council can be conducted in a quiet and respectful manner, and the breach of order of wide!) I complained showed a want of courtesy to the Speaker.

Mr CARL YON”: lam not aware that the Speaker may move in a matter like this of! Ids own accord. It is his dutv to wait (ill some member of the home calls upon him. It is an act of tyranny on his part to dem to members (ho free right of consulting each other on the business before the house, which is of great public importance. 1| have attended both the House of Commons and House of Lords in England, ami have never seen this right denied. The SPEARE R: I should be the last Dian in the Council to object to the right of - members to con u t each other with reference to th; business, but whim such consultation takes place in a hnul voice, and in a direct line between the Speaker and the gentleman addressing him. I consider it no act of tyranny to cluck it. 1 appeal to the common sense of the Council whether or not I am right. Mr LI'CHAN AN hud heard it broadly asserted that the putil?-•*> couhl not have the slightest effect upon the Council. He thought tin; constituents of (lie lion, members had a full right to have their petition treated with consider;*'ion and respect, and that it should not be ignored b\ the Conn ci). Practically it might not have much effect, but it was due to those outside to have their petitions properly consider, dlle should cordially support the motion for printing.

?v!.r SUTTON said that the number for V, '.npukurau had spoken as if the 92 naiu s to the petition were to be treated as a small thing. Ti'.e actual number of electors for the town was only about 200, and considering that llie petition bad only been i:i hand about 4S hours, the number was a very large one. Mr RHODES could fcc no objection to (be priming of the petition. It hud been rea ! and received, and he considered that it was only common courtesy that it shoulu, bo printed. (11 oar, bear.) j Mr CARLY ON could nut see what pos-j sible object the Council could have in printing the petition, when they knew that! the newspaper reporters v. ould get it and ; print it for nothing. It was just a waste of money. He was sorry lie had not been present when the petition was received. Let the Council have some regard for economy if they had none for grammar, (laughter.) Mr WOOD said that the document was an important one, and that it should ap pear in the journals of the house. Toe expense would only be seven er eight sail lings. With regard to the number of signatures, it was not a petition of the 'population, to which he had no doubt 500 or (suo signatures would have been oblainej, but a petition of the electors. Now, the largest number of votes polled iti Napier was 140, the average number was 10, and ho contended that; 02 was a fair proportion. He considered the adusieri of the

member for Waipvkuraa to the meeting was in very bad irstc. '1 he meeting should not have come hi lore the Council at ail; but as lie had been mentioned in connection with it, and it had been sp. kcn i f as a “ hole and corner meeting,'’ he would ea;y that every effort had been made to give it due publicity, and that the Masonic Lush was crowded us lie iiad never before seen it. Among the signal uses was that of lhe chief Karaitiann : he e«.-.rd state that hi amis a qualified elector ox the town of Napier. MrCARI.YON asked if all the signatures were those of electors. If nv oi the names were on that petition which were not on the Electoral roll be considered it was a breach of the privilege ol the itußse,

j Mr WOOD said that before bringing forward the petition the first time ho had carefully collated the 7T- names with the Electoral 8011. Eighteen additional names had since been added, and he had not had his belief they were all lona fide electors. The motion was then agreed to without a division. [to HE CONTINUE!!.]