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Provincial Council.

FRIDAY, 4th OCTOBER. The Council met at three p.m. PtO§snt| , =Ali the mezubers Ttr■». M‘Leau. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. TELEGRAPH STATION. Mr CARL YON moved, — That this Council present a petition to the Colonial Secretary in favor of an electric telegraph station being located at Waipawa in preference to Waipokurau. *—H® thought when the choice was made it would have been far better to have taken the north side of the Waipawa river instead of the other. Mr WESTON seconded the motion. Mr ORMOND said that if the number of the population was the rule by which they were to be guided, Waipawa certainly had the preference ; but on the other hand it was very justly urged that the Waipawa river was somelicm-s so flooded as to be impassable,. whereas communication was never cut off between Waipawa and Napier ; and on that ground he thought it was better at Waipukurau, than where there was already regular communication. Major LAMBERT said that although the majority of the population was at Waipawa, yet there was a large number of inhabitants on the other side of the river, and taking into consideration the fact of the communication being so often interrupted, be thought it best that the station should remain where it was originally intended to be. He did not say this for the sake of perpetrating a job for his district, as any member acting with that object would regret having done so, besides meeting with little gratitude from those whom he had attempted to serve. Some further discussion ensued, when *he motion was put, and decided in the affirmative. Major Lambert called for a division, which resulted thus :—Ayes, 14— Messrs, Rhodes, Ormond, Kennedy, Doibel, Buchanan, Tiffen, Tanner, Oarlyon, Button, Irvine, Weston, Parsons, Locke, Whitmore. Noes, 1 Major Lambert. The motion was therefore affirmed. WANT OF CONFIDENCE. Mr BUCHANAN moved,—

1. That the open and unequivocal avowal of hostility to Provincial institutions uttered within the Chamber by the member for Porangahau, and tacitly assented to by the members for Clive and hiapier, is held to be adverse to the true interests ■of this Province, and, in consequence, deprives those gentlemen of that free and full confidence as members of the Executive which they have hitherto enjoyed. - 3. That the Speaker forward a copy of this resolution to his Honor the Superintendent immediately he returns from Wellington.

—He did not think the member for Porangahau would have any difficulty in interpreting the meaning of these resolutions. He was glad his Honor the Superintendent was absent, as it would be impossible to torture the words of the resolution into an expression of opinion against him. He had heard the member for Porangahau make use of expressions which, to say the least of them, were not decent for a person occupying the position he did in the Government of the Province. The hon. member had spoken of Provinces as being extravagant, and grossly illmanaged. It ill became the member for Porangahau to speak thus, when having for the last five years been at the head of the Executive ho was more responsible than any other man in the Province. He considered it was absolutely wrong for any member of that Council, more particularly if a member of the Government, to speak to the House disparagingly of the system under which he held his seat. Badly as this Province was conducted, it was in a better position than it would be if handed over to the tender mercies of the General Government, to whom the settlers would have to go cringing and crawling for anything they might require. The extravagance of Provincial Governments, about ■which the member for Porangahau had said so much, was nothing to the extravagance of the General Government. He would refer to one item in their estimates, for a copy of which he was indebted to that member. He found the sum of £4OO eet down for a gentleman who sat in that Council, as military commander. The military strength of the Province consisted principally ot 50 or 60 men, of whom he (Mr B.) was captain, yet the cost to the Province was £l,oOO per annum for the gallant army of Hawke’s Bay. However extravagant the member for Porangahau might have been in his management of the affiurs of the Province, there had never been so flagrant a case as this. This item was not under the head of Hawke’s Bay. but under miscellaneous or general expenditure. By these estimates he saw that Hawke’s Bay was taxed for Gen""" 1 Government expenditure to the sum *o£ 60s. per head for every man, woman, and child in the Province. The member for Porangahau had said that when the Prosystem had come to an end, Hawke s Bey would be divided into about three local Boards; these, at any rate, could not be conducted any cheaper than »he Out Provincial Government. He did not think it right that the expenditure of the Province should he in the hand* of gentlemen holding the opinions of the member for Porangahau, as they might be the means of carrying their predictions into effect.

Lieub-Colonel WHITMORE said that he had been alluded to in a personal manner by tbs member for the Country

Districts, and he wished to make an expla-j nation of the subject. He had acted in] the capacity of commandant for a year and j a half without remuneration, though duriug that time he had been repeatedly pressed! by the General Government to receive] payment for his services. On the visit of| Colonel Haultain to the Province he had also pressed him to accept payment, and, being joined by Me M'Lean, ho (CoL vY.)j at last consented. He might state that the salary he received was the smallest paid to any military commandant in the Colony. As for the rest of the staff, he considered it was insufficient and under paid. The General Government had a large property in arms in this Province, and needed a considerable staff to keep them in order. With regard to the motion, he considered the conduct of the member for the Country Districts most inconsistent. He condemned the Government for not being responsible, and attacked them as if they were, carefully excepting the only responsible person, his Honor the Superintendent. He considered the resolution an outrageous one. It had been proved, beyond discussion, in the General Assembly, that £350,000 taxation for the support of Provincial Governments wovld be saved when they were done away with. Taxation would then be direct, and fall upon property. The working classes were beginning to see this, and from ultra-provincialists were now becoming strong centralists. Ho thought the member for Porangahau would have been more prudent had he not expressed so strong an opinion of the ultimate fate of the Province. He believed that Hawke’s Bay would last as long as any of the other provinces. Auckland must soon come to an end as a Province, from sheer exhaustion of funds, and such would be the difference in the expenditure under the new system that instead of having, as at present, a deficiency of revenue to carry on the Goverement, she would have a surplus. This being the case, Hawke’s Bay, which was not in any such condition as Auckland, would have a very considerable surplus when the new system was adopted. He did not think the grounds were sufficient for the member for the Country Districts to put so contemptuous a motion on the notice paper.

Mr TAN.NEH said that in seconding the motion he did not pledge himself to give it his support. He hud been very sorry to see the sneering manner in whicii the member for Porangahau generally alluded to Provincial institutions. These remarks would have been bad enough from a private member, but they certainly did not sound well coming from the Government bench. Whatever his private opinions might be, one who had voluntarily taken such a prominent part under such institutions should not afford to sneer at them. In doing so he had laid himself open to a charge which he (Mr Tanner) had several times heard outside the House, and which he only brought forward to give tiiat member a chance of refuting it. It was this, that having got what he could out of Provincial institutions, he would not be sorry to see them upset, er even to give them a parting kick. He thought it was but fair that having heard such an opinion, he should give the hon. member a chance of refuting it, though he could not be surprised that such an opinion had been expressed. The Executive had stated that they were responsible, the Jiuperin tendeot having endorsed their acts to the fullest extent. Last session, when a motion which they took to be a vote of want of confidence was passed, they threatened to resign their seats if it was not rescinded. This being the case, should this motion be passed, they were bound by self respect,-—or, to use the words of the Government, “if they had the spirit of a mouse,” —to resign. Ho did not think, however, that it would come to this issue. i

Mr ORMOND said that for whatever blame attached to him for the opinions he had expressed, he alone was responsible. To say that his colleagues in the Executive, who had not expressed any opinion on the subject, were equally biameable, was indeed a monstrous proposition. He considered he had a perfect right to express the opinions he had, and if the Council wished to censure him for them, they should not have included other gentlemen in their resolution. Ho saw in the resolution of the member for the Country Districts that he was now deprived of the “ full and free confidence ” of the Council He was surprised at this, as ho had hitherto been unaware that he possessed that gentleman’s “free and full confidence.”' Not content to confine himself to the words he (Mr Ormoud) had used, the member had dragged in the question of provincialism against centralism. If the words he had used were considered by tbs Council unbecoming, let them nee? « vote of censure. As for his office, he was sick and tired of it, and would be rather glad to be relieved of it. The hon. member had applied the words which he considered were not decent—“gross mismanagement and extravagance”—to the Province of Hawke’s Bay. He (Mr Ormond) did not think any member of the Council would think him such a donkey as to believe that he had applied these terms to the management and expenditure of this Province, over whfch he had had the principal control for the last five years. No man would condemn himself in such a manner. The opinions on provincialism which he had expressed were not new, and he bad never concealed them. He had long been looking forward to the time

| when provincialism should be swept away, jit was on its last legs, and that two years I would see the cud of it. He was j not, however, such an utter booby as Ito accuse himself of being guilty of all | the evils of provincial misuiauageuieut. The member for Te Aute had aaid that j people had charged him with making what j iie could out oi i'rOTincisiisin, and he knew that people had said he had beer, working for a road to his own door. If this was the case, he certainly had not got it yet. There was a very good road to Waipawa, principally through his exertions, and this was the only advantage he had taken of his position. When be first sat in that Council, with his brother runholders, they had the power of doing almost as they chose. They did not use this power for their personal benefit. They passed a series of resolutions tying up the Provincial Estate for the good of the Province in future years. These resolutions were not sanctioned—it would have been better for the Province now if they bad been—but the Superintendent at that time—Mr Fitz Gerald —was extravagant, and wanted the revenue of the Province in his own hands. With regard to the extravagance of the General Government, he would quote a few of the items relative to this Province from the estimates. Provincial charges, £6482; Sub-Treasury, £150 ; stamps, £125 ; electoral, £75; Resident Magistrates’ Courts, 1070; District Courts, £150; Superintendent’s contingencies, £135; Registrar of Deeds, £350 ; postal, £lBlB ; customs, £1260 ; militia and volunteers, £1349. Some member had said that they were going back to the old state of things, when Wellington absorbed the revenues of Hawke’s Bay ; but in these days of increased communication and the telegraph such a thing could never occur. In conclusion, he would say that he gloried in the opinions he had expressed, and called upon any gentleman who disagreed with him to vote for the resolution.

Mr CARLYON said that he did not think the mere expression of opinion of the member for Porangahau warranted a resolution of this nature being brought against him. It was only when a Government brought in measures which were opposed to the wishes and did not meet the wants of the community—such, for instance, as a Maine Liquor Law. He trusted the member for the Country Districts would not press his motion. Mr RHODES said that Carlyle had spoken of “ Parliamentary bagpipes ” They had heard several tunes plaved on that instrument that day, but with very little aooarent result. Ho (Mr Rhodes) was opposed to provincialism. He had supported it at the time of separation simply to prevent the land revenue from being spent elsewhere. He should not allow the resolutions to be withdrawn, but would press them to a division, to show who were the friends of the Government, and who werethi-ir enemies.

Major LAMBERT said that members had lost sight of the original motion, and gone into the question of Provincialism against Centralism. He had known the opinions ot the member for Porangahau on this subject for the last live or sir years. He (Major Lambert) was one of the illustrious sir who voted against Provincialism, though since that time he had seen many advantages derived from it. He considered that the Executive might be reconstructed with advantage to the Council; there had been something very offensive in the manner of some of the hon. members at times. He would instance the remark about “ Parliamentary bagpipes,”—the gentleman who made that remark looking at the time at the member for the Country Districts. Such remarks were exceedingly unpleasant and uncalled for ; he really thought some members did not know when they were offensive. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) With regard to the remark about “ cringing and crawling,” he did not think the people of Hawke’s Bay would do it—they would rather climb. As to Responsible Government, they had been told that the Executive had no responsibility, and that the Council had no control over them, or no .remedy, except by removing the Superintendent, which they might not wish to do. If the Council had no more power or control than this they might almost as well go home at once. It was better even to pay for a Responsible Government than to be in that position. He had been glad to hear the explanation of the member for Pora ngahau ; he considered that the position of that gentleman was indeed a proud one, and that the remarks of the member for I’e Ante were quite uncalled for. Mr BUCHANAN said he had not made a persona! attack on the member for Wuiroa, as that gentleman had assumed. He had carefully avoided all offensive or personal remarks, and had merely exercised ins privilege of commenting on him as a government officer. He would congratulate that gentleman on the happy times which he foresaw, when taxes to the amount of £350,000 were to be taken off the bread and cheese of the working man; but he had yet to learn how this was to be accomplished. He considered it very problematical whether taxation would ever be reduced by the General Government in New Zealand ; certainly it would not be attempted for many years. So far as regarded the cheapness ofgovernmentundera nominated Superintendent instead of an elected one, he would refer to one item in the General Government estimates. That was—- “ Clerks for General Government agent, £450.” There was nothing to parallel this in the Frjrinoisl Government expenditure.

With regard to cheapness, it was the same with all Governments. They would ail, when in power, exercise their patronage and be extravagant, and it was the universal endeavor of those out of power to check the Government expenditure, and «.66U'li as lOn as pOsstDis. Ho admired the chivalry of the member for Porungahau in taking the blame, if blame there was, leagues. He had past services to refer to, which—

Mr RHODES said that the member for Napier (Mr Kennedy) and himself were prepared to accept a full share of responsibility for the opinions of the member for Porangahau Mr BUCHANAN continued. The member for Porangahau could refer to past services, which the others could not.

Mr RHODES : Yes they could. Mr BUCHANAN was not surprised at these interruptions from the member for Clive—the same gentleman who had called him the “ Parliamentary bagpipes.” He would quote a Latin proverb bearing upon the subject—“ ex quovis ligno no fit mercuries,” —which ha would render in the vernacular for the benefit of the hon. member —“ You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.” The member for Porangahau had professed to be glad and surprised that he had hitherto enjoyed his (Mr Buchanan’s confidence ; he had turned the meaning adroitly, but he must remember that that was not intended altogether as the private opinion of the mover, but as that of the Council in general. They had heard a good deal of three Road Boards inste id of the Provincial Council, but he would ask, what was the Provincial Council more than a Road Board ? Their acts were generally disallowed and those that remained reflected no credit on them as legislators. They did nothing beyond voting estimates and carrying out the roads, and certainly one Board of this description was better than three. Again, as to these new institutions, they were permissive, not compulsory. Neither General or Provincial Governments had«any power to force them on the public,—the people must ask for them before they could come into force. He (Mr Buchanan) might possibly hare modified or withdrawn his resolution, but the member for Chvo had challenged him openly to a division, and as it was a pity to disappoint his pugnacity, it should go to a division.

The motion was lost on tue following division. Ayes, 2—Messrs Buchanan and Weston. Noes, 14 —Messrs Rhodes, Ormond, Kennedy, Lambert, Carlyon, Parsons, Dolbei, Whitmore, Wood, Tanner, Locke, Sutton, Tiliec, Irvine. PAPERS. Mr ORMO VD laid on the table a statement of outstanding Provincial liabilities, and other financial papers. PETITION. Mr WOOD presented a petition from James Ashton complaining that his paddock had been for some months used as a public road, and praying for consideration of his case. Read and received. The Council thou (3 50) on the motion of Mr Wood, adjourned till Seven o’clock. The Council met again at 7'15. TOLLGATES. Mr WOOD moved— That in the opinion of this Council the principle of levying money for the maiatenace of trunk roads by means of tailgates should not be confined to the vicinity of Napier and Meanee, but that tailgates should also be established at intervals on the made roads of the interior.—say at the junction of the Middle and Te Aute roads, Paki Paki, Te Aute, Waipawa, and Eperaima,

—He did not object to the principle of taxation to keep roads in repair and therefore he had voted for the bill, qualified by the resolution of the member for toe Country District. What he objected to was unequal taxation, and it was perfectly monstrous that a resident in Napier, sucn as himself driving out of town every day for the benefit of his health should have to pay each day, after driving over three miles of shingle beach the same as a traveller from Waipawa, who had passed over forty miles of a well-made road. It amounted, in the case of such a person as he had mentioned, to a yearly tax of £lB 15s This motion was based upon the principle of fair policy, he had no wish to open the details ; he hoped the Government would give it no opposition, and he particularly calculated upon the support of the member of the Executive who represented the town of Napier.

Mr WESTON, though he approved of the principle of tolls, would not support the motion: Tollgates in the districts proposed would not bs profitable. The effect of the motion would be to create bitter feeling between the town and country. GoL WHITMORE said the proposition was seasonable, and he should support it, provided the words " as soon as they can oe let so as to produce revenue,” were added. He hoped that no country member would object to the motion. One payment of toll should clear the other gates for 4S hours. Mr CAHLYuN considered the prineipiD OX bill' rCoviublOu gOOd, blit h“ not support it. He considered that if those who sought health aud exercise and would find a ride or drive of three miles, a-hslf from the town sufficient. They might ride exactly up to the tollgate and turn back if they chose.

Mr TANNER did not think the motion would act. He hoped, it would be sneired.

Mr ORMOND said that ho should oppose the resolution of the member for the Country Districts standing part of the Bill in Committee, sod would do hi- best to bri ig the uiOu ej derived from the toll into the power of the Council. He did not think that the course laid down in tba motion before the House would fcs & source of revenue. Five additional toll-bars would have to be established at a cost of £2OO each, and possibly there might be £4OO derived from them over and above the cost of their creation. It was not worth while to lay such a heavy tax on the people far so slight a return. The motion by the member for the Country Districts was contrary to justice, and ho hoped it would be rescinded in committee.

Mr TIPFEN should oppose the resolution, because ho believed it would not pay. With regard to the resolution respecting the disposal of the money, that waa set* tied, and the remark of the member for Porangahau was out of place, Mr KENNEDY would oppose the motion, because it would not pay. There was some injustice involved in having the toll-gate so near the town, but all taxes pressed unjustly on some persons. Major LAMBERT thought the best argument he had heard against the resolution was that it would not pay. He considered the motion unfair, ana thought it had been brought forward in a kind of pet. He should vote against it.

Mr RHODES said that the principle of the motion was sound, but he did not believe that it would pay for a considerable time. The time might come when ha should support a similar resolution, but he could not do so at present. Mr LOCKE would not support the motion, as he did not believe it would pay. Mr IRVINE would support the motion. Toll-gates were obsolete in England, and he considered the Bill an unjust one. Mr BUCHANAN had given the Bill hit uncompromising opposition. He thought it would have been better for tua member for Havelock to hare voted with him against the Bill instead of attempting to cast the same burden upon others. He (Mr Buchanan) would be consistent, and vote against the resolution.

Mr WOOD said he had not brought the motion forward in a pet. He had voted for the Bill under certain restrictions, and did not see any inconsistency in extending the principle. To meet the objection Chat it would not pay, he asked leave to add the words, “so soon as they or any of them are capable of contributing towards revenue: the lessee paying ail expenses, and the same being advertised twice a year.”

The Government members objecting to the addition, Mr Wood asked the leave o£ the Council to withdraw hie motion, which was granted, and motion withdrawn accordingly. SLAUGHTER-HOUSE BILL. On tiie motion of Mr ORMOND ths consideration of this Bill was deferred till next sitting day. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Mr OKMU.M L) moved that the House res dve itself into Committee of Supply, and proceeded with his financial statement. Major Lambert objected that the estimates were not Defore the members, and this ob« jection was borne out by Mr Buchanan. Mr Ormond contended that it was not regular to place the estimates in the hands of membeis before the statement was made, and proceeded with his statement. Mr Buchanan again objected that it was irregular to make the financial statement with tiie Speaker in the chair j it should be dona in Committee of Supply.. Mr Ormond said that the last financial statement in the General Assembly was made with th» Speaker iu the cuair, and referred to the member tor Wairoa, who corroborated his statement. lie then re-commenced, when Mr iiuchanan produced the authorised, reports of the General Assembly, and read an extract, snowing that the financial statement had oean made with the Chairman of Committees iu the chair. Mr Urmoud and Col. Whitmore said they were strongly under the impression tuat tne statement was made before the speaker, the turiner gentleman suggesting that there was possibly a mispnut in tne ueoates. it Oeiag IU p.m. the adjournment of the Council waa moved by Mr Weston, »ud it adjourned accordingly till Tuesday.

In the Provincial Council on Tuesday evening— Lieut. Col. WHITMORE moved— Per leave to bring in a bill to abate the bona nuisance. Mr TIFFEN seconded the motion Leave was granted, bill brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be printed. Major LAMBERT moved— That the Government be requested to lay oa the table a copy of the map of the road through the 70-AUte Rush, made Dy the surveyor in cutting that road. Mr TIFFEN seconded the motion A long discussion ensued, in which it was stated that there were neither map of tue road nor field notes in possession o£ the Government that the contracters had not followed the line marked out, having found, tbey said, a belter one, and that die road was almost impassable from its w retailed construction. Major LAMBERT withdrew his motion That his Honor the Superintendent state to tbs Council if the Provincial Government are m possession of any information relative to several per* sons to whom land was granted by '■ The Auckland

Waits Rinds Act,’* under clause 79, having forfrifed their lands through mm-compliance with that Act, —as the subject was one for the Supreme Court. The Sheep and Scab Amendment Act was read a second time. The second reading of the Sheep-Brand - ing and Dog-Nuisance Acts were deferred till to-day The report of the Select Committee on the .Highways Act was deferred. The Committee on the. Toligate Act was deferred tiil tho other orders of the day had been disposed of. The second rea ling of the Loan Amendment Act was postponed in anticipation of news from Wellington. Tno Slaughter-house Act was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Wednesday. The Council went into committee of Supply, and Mr Ormond made the financial statement. On the motion of Mr TANNER, the Committee on. the Tollgato Act was postponed. The Cemetery Act was passed through committee and reported as amended to the Speaker. Ordered to be read a first time on Wednesday. The Council then (8‘35 p.m.) adjourned.

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Hononga pūmau ki tēnei tūemi

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/HBT18671010.2.2

Bibliographic details
Ngā taipitopito pukapuka

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume XII, Issue 516, 10 October 1867, Page 1

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Tapeke kupu
4,688

Provincial Council. Hawke's Bay Times, Volume XII, Issue 516, 10 October 1867, Page 1

Provincial Council. Hawke's Bay Times, Volume XII, Issue 516, 10 October 1867, Page 1

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