Provincial Council.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume XII, Issue 492, 15 July 1867, Page 1

Provincial Council.

FRIDAY, sth JULY. The Council met at 3 p.m. Present, —The Speaker and all the members except Messrs. Locke and Delbel The minutes ot the last meeting were read and confirmed. POINT 01 ORDER. The SPEAKER said that with reference to the point of order raised by the member tor Porangahau, he had found that he was quite correct, ami that the long speech which the member for Te Aute had made ftith reference to his question, was out of order He hud been unable to find any rule on the subject in the edition of May’s Parliamentary Practice, belonging to the Council, and it was to the diligence and courtesy of tile member for the Country Districts, that he was indebted for u more eomp'ete edition, from which he would] now read the rule. They would see that! it prohibited any reference to debateable matter. |

Mr BUCHANAN said (heCouncil would perceive that the same rule held good tor ivp ics. He had often heard debateable matter introduced into a Government reply in the Council, and he thought it wa.i well the subject had been brought before their notice. papers. Vr ORMOND laid on the tablo a letter from the Deputy-Registrar, with reference to the return called for by Mr Cariyon. litis letter enclosed a circular from the General Government, forbidding their olllcers to give any information which might come to their knowledge ur the way of business. Mr CARLYON said that (ho letter was an insult to the Council, and he did not sec why reference had been made to the Deputy-Registrar at all. HARBOR REGi'LATIONS. MrTIFFEN moved, — for a Select Committee to frame Harbor Regulations fur the Wairoa and. Mohaka: this Committee to consist of Mr Parsons, Lieut-Col. Whitmore, Messrs U ood, Rhodes, and the mover.

Mr PARSON'S seconded the motion. Agreed to. REMOVAL or POST OFFICE. Mr \\ OOD said the motion had been placed on the paper by his friend the member for tnc down, an i he had given notice of it for tu-Jay in order that it augnl not lapse. He moved I hat all correspondence be laid on the tabic between the Provincial and General Government! ■respecting file removal of die Chief Post Oliice to 1 a more central and convenient site. Mr SUTTON’ seconded the motion. Mr M‘LEAX laid the correspondence | on the table. REPORT ON PEXCING BILL, Major LAMBERT obt allied leave to defer the report of this committee till Tuesday. SHEEP AND SCAB AMENDMENT BILL. Mr ORMOND moved the reading of the Sheep and Scab intendment Bill. The bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed presently. CATTLE TRESPASS BILL. On the motion of Mr CARLTON this bill was read a third time and uassed.

Ihe Council then passed the Sheep and Scab Amendment Bill through Committee, and ordered the third reading for nest sitting day. TUESDAY, 9th JULY. arc indebted to our contemporary for the following, our reporter being absent.] The Council met at 3 o’clock. Present, ail the members except Messrs Carlyon and Locke. | rifTUICT KOAT'S BILL. 1 Mr MJLEAN moved—Tor leave to bring in a Bill to be called the !“ District Roads Bill.” I Leave granted : bill read a first time, !ordered to be printed, and its second readling made an order of the day for Thu sday.

TOLL GATE BILL. Mr ORMOND moved— For leave to bring in a Bill to legalise the establishment of a Toil Gate between Tareha’s i Bridge and the Towu boundary. | Leave grunted ; bill read a first time, lomereu to be printed, and Its second reading made au order of the day for Wcduesj PAPERS. Mr M'LEAN laid upon the table the returns (connected with the Hikutoto and Papakura blocks) moved for by Mr Wes ton. THISTLE BILL. Mr WOOD, in moving the second reading of the Thistle Rill, read a formal communication addressed to himself, signed by 18 residents in the town and suburban district of Havelock, approving of his efforts to obtain for them a workable Thistle Act, and expressing a hope that, with the assistance of the town members, he would succeed in carrying the measure. Ho also read a resolution passed at a Jut, me ding held at Mohaka, in which t 1 e' settlers of that district requested their representative, Mr Dolbol, to give his support to this or a similar measure in Council desiring that it might become law at as early a date as possible. He trusted that the wishes of the bona-fide settlers of those districts would meet with attention from the Council. The principle of the bill had been already discussed. And the present measure was remo idled so as to meet some of the objections urged against the one first submitted, lie had included, in order to test the feeling of the Council, three other districts in the schedule—those ol Meanee, Papakura, a.id Clive—but could not speak positively as to the wish of the settlers of those uistricls Mr DOLBKL seconded the motion.

LAMBERT had no objection lo a Thistle bill lor those who wanted it, but, looking at this measure, he really could not see that it would effect anything There was no provision for reaching absentees; there was no geting at them, and the bill was of no use without. Such a measure was altogether premature. Then tlie unfortunate individual who had land adjacent to a road or river bed. It Mould be rank injustice to saddle any settler with such an expense—an expense which in equity should be borne by the- whole district.

Mr TANNER could not see whv settlers who wished it should not have an Act in some shape or other : but he apprehended the principle of the of this bill was scarcely what was required. He thought a Thistle Rill should bo altogether permissive—that it should not be brought into operation without the consent of three-fourths of the people, owning three fourths of the acreage. Were it otherwise, a lew men posses in ■ an acre each might combine against a proprietor of 500 acres and ruin him. A Thistle Rill should be fair to all parlies ; not one that would place it in the power of any number of peoolc to work injustice to any one holder. He also thought that information under this Act should be before two justices, not one as proposed. He hoped the consideration of this question would be postponed till next session, ibis would only be for two or three months, and no harm would be done by such delay.

MrTIFFEN would support the bill; although in many respects lie thought it worse than the old one. The old bill provided for absentees, and it was permiHve - it opened the way for a new districts coining under the Act. If they did not include absentees tiiere was little use in legislating upon the subject. He had been that day over some absentee land—belonging to Moses—and there were thistles enough on it to stock the whole of the Meanee fiat.

Mr TANNER moved the previous question. Major LAM BERT seconded the motion Sir ORMOND said that were this amendment carried, the bill would be virtually shelved. Now, although opposed to the bill iu its present shape, he did not wish to burke discussion upon it. lie would be iu favor of a permissive bill—upon the application of three-fourths of the acreage. If that would meet the views of the member for iluvolocK, lie would be prepared to go on with the bill—always provided that it be self-supporting—but I not otherwise.

Major LAMBERT again suggested | postponement till next session, saying tliai! no harm could lake place, and that noi good could result from hurrying Ibe men sure throughMr W OOD said that file measure was not being hurried through—that unlike government bills, which wore brought up at the very last moment, this hill, in a slightly different shape, had been before the public for throe months, every facility had been given for the ventilation of (he question. As to reaching absentees, nothing was more desirable than that thev should be readied, but in the present s:a e of the law they could not be reached. An alteration in tue Aoii-l’aymcnt of Rues Act, so as to include expenses of this kind and iencing, would be necessary for 'his purpose, and an Amendment Act, i o improbably, would be brought in during h present session of the Assembly. Juaniwhile, a claim upon absentees was provided for, to be enforced when such absentees could be got at. The suggestion that the bill should !not come into operation without the to. • !sent of tiio owners or occupiers of threefourths of the acreage would simply ’amount, in most cases, to a denial of jus-

tices to the mall farmer. Generally speuatiug it aas against adjoining iurge holdcrs that they wanted redress—against 'd proprietor, it might be, who in point of acreage could swamp all the rest. An amendment of this nature would simuly be to shelve the bill—at least as regarded some districts. He was there as repre senting the interests of a class of men who were earnestly trying to improve, but who could do nothing on account ot the acres of thistles with which they were stir rounded, and against the owners of which they earnestly asked for suck protection as the Council could afford. j

After some further discussion the pre-j vious question was put; but through not understanding the technica effect of this motion, there was considerable confusion in the division that ensued. This took place a second time; but the Speaker, generously taking all the blame to himsdf for mis-direclion, intimated his intention of again putting the question, or of resignhis seat. This was eventually done, with e following result: Avcs—(for going on with (he bill) Messrs Irvine, lill'en, Sutton, Dolbel, Wood, Parsons, Rhodes, M'Lean—B. Noes—(for shelving it) Messrs Ruc'aanan, Weston, Ormond, Eeuuedy, Tanner, Lambert—6 The question was then put that the bill be read a second time, with the I'ohwing result:

Ayes —Messrs Tiffen, Irvine, Sutton, Wood, Parsons, Dolbol, MHean—7 Noes Messrs Buchanan, Weston, Ormond, Tanner, Kennedy, Lambert. Rhodes—7

The Speaker gave his casting vote with the ayes; the bill was aceonungly re-d a second time, and ordered to be commuted presently. SHEEP AND SCAB AMENDMENT ACT. On the motion of M’- OR.VIO.ND, this bill was read a third time and passed. ESTIMATES. Mr ORMOND laid on the fable the estimates of expenditure, and gave notice lor next day, of committee of ways and means, and committee of supply. THISTLE HILL. The Council thou went into committee on the i fustle Bill, and ail the clauses down to tho schedules having been con--idered, the Oimirman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again. The Council then (J p.m.) adjourned till 3 p.m. next day.

WKI) X E SPAY, i 0 t n JI'L Y . Tin; Comit'il met at 3 o'clock. Present, —The Speaker ami all I ho members except Messrs. .Locke ami t arlvon. The minutes of the last meeting were read and continued. I’F.TITiOX. | Mr BUCK AX AX presented a petition from certain residents on the Great North road, setting forth that great inconvc nience and unpleasant feeling resulted from certain roads not being laid out, ami praying that the matter might be favorably considered. On the motion of Mr Buchanan, the petition vras read and received. VACUUS. Mr ORMOND laid upon the table the abstract of receipts ami expenditure tor the financial year ending 3uih June, 1st;?, and other papers connected with the linance of the province. JrSTKT.S ON Gltr.AT SOUTH UOAII. Mr WOOD, pursuant to notice, asked his Honor the Superintendent Whether his attention luul hseu filled to the fact that no Justice of the I’cacc is iv-.Jent on, or at a place easily anvssihic 10, the Great South; lur.iil —Iviuvei! Napier, on the one hand, and Parangata, Waipukurau, and linatauivdia on the other; —ami whether his Honor has luoual the General Government to add one or more names to the Commission of the I’caee, with the view of supplying the deficiency. —He said that the Thistle Act, if it became law, would require the presence of a second magistrate to administer it, and there was none within a reasonable distance. Hence he put the question standing in his name. Mr YD 1, KAN said that the subject, had not been considered by the Government as one cscntially necessary. The country referred to was nearly ail native land, and had co • paratively few European settlers fho .Resident Magistrate (Mr Cooper) visit eti Havelock once a fortnight, ami there were very few cases indeed for him to hear. The Government, therefore, saw no particular urgency in this matter, especially as at the present moment there were no fewer than 43 justices within the province.

ivuif iujniiiTF.n. Mr li L Ui iA n n > hiMuciii up a progress report of this committee, and moved that it be read.—Read accordingly, and ani extension of time granted for the final rc-t port. | sL.vrGHTr.K house mu.. | Mr (TRMOR D obtained leave to bring’ in a Slaughter House Bid. He said ifiati if the Council approved of the Government scheme, and voted the necessary \ funds for a public slaughter house, it; would see the propriety of an Act lor the' regulation of the same, the imposition of dues, Ac. Leave granted ; hill read a first time, and its second rctmi >g made an order of the day for Thursday. WAVS AMD MEANS, Mr ORM.UISI), pursuant to notice,

moved that the Council go into committee Oi Wti>S air'l menus. Xll COtUlUlttsC iIS purposed making a statement explanatory ol the .financial position of the province. Mr BUCIIA>iAN objected to this course. The proper parliamentary practice was first to grant a supply, and then to go into committee to consider the way* and means. | Mr ORMCijS’I) expressed « contrary opinion—that the qun-thm of ways and means was a necessary preliminary to the consideration of the estimates of expenditure. MrBLCHANAN said 'hat the estimates of revenue had not been in members’ hands more than tea minutes. Mr ORMONL) said it was matter of in. dhierence in which form th • Council went into committee, and would now move that the Council go into committee of supply, j Mr BUCHANAN said he had an amend(menc to move, and then read the following : That this Council do resolve, — 1. lliat the estimates of expenditure be referred bach to the Government, with a view to reduction l of the proposed votes, so as to bring them within the limits set by the liuaucial condition of the government. 2. That immediate re-organisation of the provincial service is necessary. d. That where the interests of individuals are concerned, the principle by which the action of the .Government should be controlled, is, the retention, without reference to grade, of officers having the ctlieieuey requisite fur the due discharge of the increased duties reduction of numbers will give rise to. j Mr TANNER seconded the amendment. Mr M‘LEAN did not think this was the proper time to bring forward such au (amendment. When members were in possession of the statement about to be made Iby Ins colleague, it would then be competent to bring forward any resolution. At this stage ho submitted it was irregular. Major LAMBERT objected to estimate* being framed for 12 months, seeing that another session was shortly expected to take place. Throe months’ estimates would he quite enough to pass in lire meantime. In the estimates before the Council, no reductions of any consequence had taken place ; but it was evident that such reductions would have to be made, and the onus of such should lie with the Government, nor with private members.

-Mr (lit.MOXl-) said that some light was intended to bo thrown upon this in the statement he purposed making ii’ the Conn* oil would let him do it. I'd r T A X X E it would support tho amendmeiit ; wintdi, however, was not intended to bo hostile to the Goverun en , but lather to save future trouble and unpleasant 1 ess. Lieut -Cob WHITMORE hoped tho Cou i(■ i 1 would at least hear tho finauc' al rial ement. -Mr LUVHAXA X said that the Estimates shotiiii tirst be remodelled, as the ilnaneia! stateinent and the Estimates had so dose a relation to each other. Tne amendment was then put, and car* find on I no following division : Acs, t> Messrs Buchanan, Tanner, Lambert, iVeston, Dolbel, Parsons, Wood, Title :• Xoes, 7—Messrs Irvins, Sutton, Whitmore, lv lodes, X linedy, Ormond. -Mr M'LLAN said that alter tho adverse vote that had been come to, tho Government was not prepared to go on with tho business; ami lie would ask tor an adjournment of the Council, Mr iA A E U asked whether tho Go*vemineut wound not go on with the Highways 13til, the ToJl-Gato ill, and other business that was on the paper. Mr OKMOXB said that both these billwere connected witii finance, and the Government would not proceed with them. Mr BU’CIiAXAX said thov were both revenue bills, and that the course taken by the Government was the correct one. The Council then adjourned.