New Zealand Parliament. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.—Tuesday, August 8, 1865. NATIVES COMMISSION BILL.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume 6, Issue 299, 21 August 1865, Page 3

New Zealand Parliament. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.—Tuesday, August 8, 1865. NATIVES COMMISSION BILL.

The Attoenet-Gekeeal (the hon. Mr Sewell) moved that, in consequence of the ruling of Mr •Speaker, the Order, made on the 3rd day of August instant, for discharging the order for the second reading of “ The Native Commission Bill,” be rescinded, and that such Bill be read a second •time.

Mr Colenso said he had never, in all his experience with the natives of New Zealand, heard them express a desire for anything of the kind. He called -■on the House to consider the peculiarity of the native character. The House should be very careful before they did anything to lower their own franchise by admitting these persons into an equality with themselves. It would bo no satisfaction to the natives themselves, and again, on the introduction of the natives to the House, if they could not speak English, they could not understand what was being done, and however willing to know that would be a bar to all their wishes. The seamen ■ on the coast would have a right to demand an al'teration in the franchise to suit themselves if they cnly knew that the natives had the franchise altered to suit them. What would be beneficial to •the natives would be this, that an Act should be passed, enabling the Governor to call the native chiefs to meet there once a year. Let them meet their Great Father as the American Indians met the President of America. Let them be with him a fortnight, and then let their griefs bo brought before the House, in a proper form, but do not Jet anything of the kind proposed be brought in. St would be the insertion of the thin end of the •.wedge, which might be made use of to bring in something they did not now think of. He had ■been led to make these remarks, in consequence of one or two sentences in the Bill. In the ninth ■ clause,-they would find this sentence, “ This report tehall -be laid before both Houses, if the House is .■still.sitting;” Now, what natives could be got together, .-and ■from what natives could information he got with satisfaction, either to the House or to ■the natives.iheaisclv-es, sthis session. If the Act ■were now put into the hands of the natives, they would say stop, because they knewthat they could ■rot fee in this first commission. It was not his intention to oppose the motion, either by amendment or by voting against it, but he warned the Government that this Bill would give no satisfaction to the natives, and would not do what the Government hoped it would do. Mr Jollie said he agreed with the observations .of the speaker who had just sat down. He would be the last person to deny to the Maoris the proper consideration of their claims to participate in the privileges given to the other subjects of her Majesty in the colony. Much as the colony had >to deplore the relations subsisting between the two races, —the whole events winch had occurred during the last few years,—the results of the war, the pernicious consequences of the great struggle which was going on against a certain class of natives —it appeared to him that, upon the whole the conduct of t he Maoris, the behaviour which they had evinced throughout the greater part of the struggle, the pertinacity with which they had fought, the heroism they had displayed—ail these did appeal to the sympathies of the country and this House. If it were not for the abominable falsehoods which had been circulated at home, he might be more disposed to the Maoris and to their cause ; but the feeling in generous minds was that they were suffering, not for the fault of the Maoris, but from the mistakes of the Government and from the unauthorised assertions which had obtained credence at home respecting the motives of the colonists of this country. Going entirely with the policy introduced by his Excellency Governor Gore Browne, he had no hesitation in saying that the whole .character which they had stituted displayed the behaviour they had shown, con ted on the whole aclaim on the consideration of the House. That the House should be chary in very rejecting any fair, reasonable, and well-considered suggestion offered to the country with a view to hearing—with a view to in some degree—expressing—their sympathy with them, and bringing in any machinery by which they could be brougt to have somevoicein the Government ofthe country. If there was any chance of accomplishing the benevolent purpose they had in view, he was not yet prepared to say that he agreed to the benefits that would arise from the Commission which was thus sought to be called together. He had great belief in the intelligence of the natives, but recollecting the difficulties of language and habits, and want of confidence between the two races, he did not see that this Commission gave much promise, especially when he considered the difficulties that would arise at various times, and the slight benefit that had arisen from several previous meetings of the natives. He had been in some measure mistaken in thinking there was to be a separate meeting, a separate commission of the natives, as the best means of carrying out the motives the Government had in view. But he was quite prepared to accede to the Bill, in the hope that the European part of the Commission might be able at all events to lay before the Assembly at a future Session some suggestion on the subject which this Bill had particular reference to. He bad a desire to have seen the Colony remain throughout its laws and institutions a thorough and genuine English Colony. There had been the greatest difficulty in the management of native affairs. They were difficulties inherent in the circumstances and character of the Colony. They were difficulties which they must face, aud if the Commission by any increase of powers could elucidate the matter and bring before the House some suggestions on the subject of incorporating the Maoris and giving them some representation, he thought it might have a very good effect, and might contribute to the settlement of a question which very few of them knew how to approach, but at present he thought it would be out of place for Maoris to be allowed to take their seats in the House. The time might come when they' might be better fit for it, and then those feelings of race would have sufficiently subsided

to guarantee their admission, and that admissidn roust-contribute to the advantage of the Colony. He was not aware, after much enquiry, that it .had ever been the case in Canada with her large population, that she had gone very far with the enfranchisement of the natives. In the case of some other portions of tlie British Empire this had been partially done. In the case of Jamaica there seemed to have been recent acts of that colony granting to the slave population participation in the electoral franchise, but he was not aware to what extent it had been given, but he did not think that it was a very liberal one. In the case of Ceylon, with its immense population, and the long period that Colony had been attached to the English Empire, and its population, who had made advances in civilization long before the period that the history of New Zealand commenced, that people had not yet shown any dis*position, much less received any share, any right, in interfering withthe Governraentof that country. It seemed very remarkable that New Zealand «kould be taking the lead of all the colonies of h'nglandj that a colony so contumaciously accused, should be proposing to do that which no other colony of the British Empire, even those who were much more adapted, had thought of doing. He was merely expressing his own views, aud showing that although he did not expect any decided results from the measure, yet he thought that with proper guidance and control tliis might be the means of throwing light on the subject and facilitating what every gentleman of the House would desire to see brought about without, in any way undermining the proceedings of the Government of the Colony.

Mr B rodie said th.o House would not be doing well to allow a Bill of this kind to pass unnoticed. When he read the second clause and recollected that in Taranaki a man was sentenced to death for murder, he said to himself “ what is the meaning of this clause ?” He apprehended that if that man was legally tried and convicted and sentenced to bo hung, her was one of her Majesty’s subjects, yet they had no authority over him (oh). Some lion, members had two ways of looking at matters ; sometimes they called the rebels belligerents and there would be no trouble about dealing with them then, but there was a double meaning way of dealing with this matter, which had really produced the result which the hon. members had referred to. It had been the cause of that imbecility of Government which had led them to tax (hemselves to such an extent as no other portion of the world was taxed, not even excepting America. They possessed elastic resources which might eventually relieve them from their financial difficulties, but no one could deny that they were in that position at present. But what did this second clause open up ? AVhat did it give them a glimpse of? It gave them a glimpse that they had been guilty of murder themselves, and then condone it by saying they did it. The House was asked to say that previous to the passing of this Bill the Maoris were subjects of her Majesty, but now, however, they come to the position of saying they were only partly so. He didnotunderstand the meaning of the second clause -at all. Either the Treaty of Waitangi was a treaty which they had shed the blood of many gallant men to defend or it was no treaty at all. The passing of this Bill opened the way to the opinion that that treaty was no trea.y at all, that it was a ruse de guerre and he trusted.the Government would not place themselves in this position of making this a Ministerial question, because it would place the members in this position that they must either leave the House or vote decidedly against it. He could not conceive that hon. gentlemen who were the defenders of the British portion of the Colony should come down Void of all that spirit, pluck, and energy, and say, while people were in rebellion they would treat them as though they were their friends, that they would consider their difficulties and their troubles, aud redress their grievances although they were created by themselves. It was a most unheard of thing. Were they in a state of submission and had grievances to be redressed, then the House would give every consideration to the difficulties connected with dealing with the native race, but it ought not to bo in the manner proposed in the Bill. As far as his knowledge of the native mind went, judging from a petition which lay on the table of the House, he thought the whole affair was simply ridiculous, and would be treated by the Maoris with the utmost contempt. What did he find in the petition of William Thompson. Ho turned round and accused the Europeans of murder. This was only following out the stream of the Maori mind, Thompson said the first commencement of the war was murder, and then ho went on to say that another place with an unpronounceable name was also murder. When the hon. members had this document before them, giving them a fair representation of the native mind, and their habits of thought aud what thay bolieved their rights, to endeavour to make any provision for their representation was suicidal, absolutely eUicidal; and he must again tm n the attention of the Attorney-General, as a legal authority, to the fact. In what way would he justify the conduct of natives sentenced to death for murder, if they were not, as he implied they were not, subject to all the rights of natural bom subjects of her Majesty? But for the fact that they were at war with the people with whom they proposed to deal there could be no objection to the question, but this was not the time, and the hon. gentleman was absolutely (if the petition was worth anything at all, if it was anything like the native mind) asking them to tax those who were too heavily taxed already. Mr Caui/etov said, he could not see how anv member could vote against the second reading. The preamble was perfectly unexceptionable; and the clause could be altered in Committee. He objected, however, to the formation of the Commission. If the Government intended to give the natives special privileges beyond the rest of the population, he could not agree to such a course If by the Constitution Act natives were debarred from electing, that hindrance should be: removed, or if they had, no household qualification, that bar should be away. With those two exceptions, the; natives bad the Same privileges as themselves. It would also be a great benefit if Cr6wn Grants were given more freely to natives.

Mr Haebisojt said although he considered this was an improper time to carry such a measure as the country was m a state of war, yet as it might produce a good impression at home, he would therefore vote for it.

Mr G-LEDHiiiii said in opposition to the last speaker, that there could be no time more opport tune for inlroduceiug such a measure, for it might pacify the natives. He doubted whether an aboriginal race existed that was more intelligent than the native race in New Zealand. It was not proposed to carry out the ultimate object of the Hill at once, but the House should not be taunted with being the first of English colonies to take steps to secure the proper representation of the aboriginal natives. Mr Phaeaztn said the petition of William Thompson was an argument in favor of the measure. The natives did not understand the supremacy of the law, for tiiey evidently thought themselves justified in resisting legal authority by iolence. It was more from ignorance than any other cause that Thompson wrote so absurdly in his petition. Europeans in some cases, wrote just as absurdly (hear, hear.) He bad not made up his mind about tiie details of the Bill, but he would maintain in opposition to some persons, that no native race had been treated with more justice than the native race of New Zealand.

Mr BtWNT said he did not rise to oppose the second reading of the Bill, as be heartily agreed with the second clause, by which the natives were to have all the rights of British subjects, and were to fulfil all the liabilities of that position, and he was glad to find that the Government were determined to make them perform the obligations and obey the law the same as the other subjects of her Majesty, for until they were made obedient to the law, it was hopeless to suppose that the present disturbed state of the colony would cease. At the present time, the natives in the district which he represented were going about in armed bodies detfroying the settlers cattle, and the law was utterly powerless to punish them, but he could not agree with the latter part of the Bill granting the natives the right of sitting in the General Assembly. He thought it premature to be legislating for that purpose. Some lion, members thought it might be the means of pacifying them, but he did not agree in (hat view; he believed any concession of priviliges to the natives at the present time would be regarded by them with suspicion, as shewing fear on onr pari. He believed the most merciful way of treating the Maoris was by great severity, hirst make them really feel empower, and then they would be in a position to appreciate our generosity.

Mr C. Wilson, C. 8., ,'said that an hon. member had stated that the lion, member for Timaru (Mr Jollie) had taunted the House with being the first Colonial Assembly to consider what provision sliould be made for the representation of tho native race. lie (Mr Jollie) had really said that it was an extraordinary thing that while the colonists were maligned everywhere, they were the first to introduce a measure to provide for the representation of the aborignal race. Mr Mantell said he was not going to speak of the old-womanish nonsense written by men in England of the Maoris, nor yet of the opinions of the missionaries, but of the formation of the Commission. The Commission proposed would be fruitless, for it would be like a packed jury. Natives were in the habit of expressing very different opinions in public meetings from those they privately entertained. Interpreters would be necessary probably between the European and Native Commissioners, and the parties would misunderstand one another. lie would prefer a European Commission, and in preference to that, that the Government should take the necessary steps themselves. Every dodge had been tried in dealing with the natives except common sense. Mr Fitzgerald said that one ef the greatest difficulties they had in dealing with any of these native questions was, that they heard the most extraordinary opinions—he hoped the hon. member (Mr Mantell) was not going to leave the House—in quarters in which they least expected to hear them. Ho hardly ever had his breath more completely taken away, than when, the other day, a deputation of natives waited on him, requesting that the troops should not be withdrawn. Before he had time to recover from that surprise, Ins hon. friend, who had just left his place with so much precipitancy, astonished him with another, by advocating a course of policy very different from that which he had advocated on previous occasions. He could not but congratulate tho House on the different manner in which this question was now viewed from what it was three years since; for he recognised that the Government had grappled with this question in the most rational and sensible manner possible. Three years ago he was not nnder the impression —still less was he now—that they should do anything else but pass an Act to allow of the representation of the natives, as would be known by those abstract resolutions he then brought forward, although it never fell to his lot to introduce any definite measure ; but he looked upon it as a mark of sagacity in the members on the Ministerial Bench in this respect, holding a contrary opinion to that of the late Minister (Mr Mantell) that instead of bringing down a cut and dried plan of representation which might or might'not be refused by the natives, and, if refused, would place the matter in a worse position, they had only proposed a tentative measure. There was one simple answer to the hon, member (Mr Mantell) when he stated that this Commission would be of no practical use, which was, that if the natives were incapable of assisting by their deliberations in tins matter, they would bo stil more incapable of being of any use to the House as members. The very moans of ascerta.ing how the object proposed should bo carried out, would, in itself, prove or disprove its expediency. The Commission would itself be a deliberative assembly, to consider what sort of means should be introduced in the House to effect the desired Result. lie coincided with the opinion of the hon. member for Napier in deprecating precipitancy in this matter. He would also deprecate the formation of any Commission which did not command the entire confidence of the whole of the native people; nothing would be easier than for the Government to destroy the utility of the measure now proposed by a bad mode of carrying it

out; while on the other hand it would be very difficult, but not impossible to carry out the measure so as to make the Commission of use. Ho believed it was almost impossible to interfere at all with native policy without meeting with diffi, cullies. There was one clause in the Bill which he did. not like, viz., the clause which required that all those who were to take part in the Commission should say that they considered themselves bound by the Queen’s laws. (Hear, hear,) Ho did not mean to say that they should not be bound by tiie Queen’s laws, but there were times when it was not wise to raise the question. The second clause asserted that the natives were British subjects with all the accompanying privileges and obligations—of what use was it then for then, to assert that they were bound by the Queen’s laws. The House should deal with this question as practical men. If they made the Commission consist of friendly natives only, or of those who did not generally command the respect of the natives; he quite agreed with the hon. member (Mr Mantell) that the Commission would be of no use whatever. They should make this Commission, so that the members of it should not be like the lick-plates of the Xohirnarama Conference. If the House wished to get round all the natives, it should not at starting begin that which was bound to be a bone of contention among the natives. Although they might in theory be British subjects, and as such have certain rights and obligations, it was not true to assert that they recognised that theory ; nor it was true that the great majority of the natives would think that in this measure the House was holding out any boon to them; perhaps some might be of the reverse opinion. If the Commission were appointed for the purpose of making laws, he (Mr Fitzgerald) would be compelled to agree that the members of it should acknowledge the Queen’s supremacy ; but as it was merely a Commission for the purpose of conveying for the Government the mind of the natives, it might be looked upon as a maxim of policy and common sense, that they should appoint such a Commission as would convey to the Government the fullest and truest information as to the native mind on this question. It would be far better to fail by such means than to have only a practical representation of the natives by other means. He hoped the House would consent, when they came to that clause, to expunge it altogether from the Bill, leaving entirely to the Government the care of so guiding the consultations of the Commission that nothing would be done against the prerogative of her Majesty, or her authority in these Islands. The House should not raise at an inopportune moment, a question which might frustrate their object. There was one other pointHe hoped the Government would not lako upon itself, the duty of appointing a Commissioner. He had received communications from various quarters, and he believed he was expressing the native view, when he stated that the natives would look with the greatest anxiety to the formation of this Commision. They would expect to have the composition of it themselves. They would expect the Government to ask the various tribes to send up proper men to represent them. The Commission wonkl not he called on to legislate, but simply to find out what the natives wanted. The House could then decide whether their request could be consistently granted. Ho wished the Bill to have the widest possible scope, simply leaving the Government to make use of such machinery as a Commission to arrive at a result, so that in order to make the Commission of use, they might go fairly to work with the natives, and asking them to set aside all past diiferences, invite them to tell the House exactly what they wanted, so that the House might see if it could be granted. If the conference was entered on in that spirit, no Bill of greater utility could have been proposed. On the motion of the Attoeney-Geneeal, the debate was adjourned.