PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume IV, Issue 181, 1 July 1864, Page 5 (Supplement)

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Thursday, June 30. The Council met at 3 p.m. Present: —The Speaker, Messrs. M’Lean, Smith, Kennedy, 'Richardson, Edwards, Colcnso, Ormond, Fitzgerald, Dolbel, Tiffes, Rhodes, Curling. The minutes were read by the Clerk. Milton Ttoad Petition. Mr. Smith presented a petition from several inhabitants of the Town, praying for the improvement and extontioP of Milton Road across the water to join the road on the Spit. Petition read and received. Privilege. Mr. Ormond wished to say a few about the question of privilege. He did so because there seemed to bo an impression abroad that, after what fell from the member for the town (Mr. C.) yesterday, the Government had been altogether wrong in the action they had taken. As far as he gathered from the remarks of that gentleman, it would appear, first, that the steps taken by certain members of the Council last session with respect to the member’s seat were not justifiable, and, second, that the Government, had gone no further in the matter, from a conciousness of having been wrong in their judgment of the case. This was altogether erroneous, and he made these remarks in order that they might appear side by side w ith the reports of the statements made by the member for the town yesterday. In bringing the motion forward last session, ho might state that those who did so were not actuated by any animus toward the member it affected ; but merely followed the same course as that taken by the member himself in relation to the seat of Dr. Hitchings, which resulted in that gentleman’s seat becoming vacant. One of the members expressed an opinion that the Government had no power to issue a new writ, and therefore acting on the resolution, they referred the case to the General Government ; but wci’e somewhat snubbed in its reply, about their want of knowledge, and informed that it was entirely a matter to be dealt with by the Supremo Court, which tribunal had power to deal with the question of validity of seats in Provincial Councils, but not those in the House of Representatives, which were decided by the House iteelf. When the Government, therefore, found that it could do nothing further in the matter, they decided to leave it as it stood ; but it was not to be inferred in consequence that there were no grounds for the action that had been taken. On the contrary, any person who felt himself aggrieved by the member sitting there, might bring an action against him in the Supreme Court. The Government, however had no desire to seethe member for the town (Mr. C.) out of the Council, for he was very useful in some things ; and as far as ho (Mr. O.) was concerned, he felt no interest either way, but he had no doubt in his own mind that the member’s seat was invalidated, and was confirmed in it by what he had heard, privately, from a very high authority. Mr. Fitzgerald asked if the Acts passed, supposing the member was sitting illegally, would bo rendered invalid.

Mr. Ormond thought not, but they bad better not go into (he question then. Mr. Colenso was sorry again to have to revert to this matter, as he thought what lie had said yesterday was so temperate and mild as not to offend any one. lie had referred to the member for Porangahau more particularly because he had almost gone so far, as to request, the Speaker to have him (Mr. C.) forcibly ejected. (Mr. Oilmono said ho did not remember having done so.) He saw the resolution, which was read yesterday, for the first time in the minutes. He had no wish to say mere on the subject, but he thought the Government should have been'prepared to say what it had to say at the time when the subject was brought forward, without having to bring up the subject again. He would say nothing as to the merits of the case, but would simply remark that he was quite willing to with stand any action that might be taken in the matter. lie-adjustment of Representation. Mr. Colenso rose to ask—- “ Whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce any measure during this session for for the re-adjustment of the Representation of the Province in the Provincial Council.” The Superintendent said the Government had thought the matter over, and had come to the conclusion that, until the census was taken, which would be in December this year, they had not sufficient data on which a measure of that kind could be prepared. They had no objection to promise that such a measure should be brought in, but they must wait until they were in possession of the necessary information on the subject, which could not be obtained before the time named. Provincial" Accounts. Mr. Colenso, according to notice given, asked “ Why tho Provincial accounts published in February and March last, and dated from the “ Treasury, January, 1 SGI” bear the signature of Mr. Janisch, as “Provincial Treasurer,” seeing, (as per Gazette) that gentleman had resigned his office in September, 1863.” The Superintendent said the short and simple explanation was that Mr. Janisch was responsible till the end of September, 1863, but some delay took place after that, in making up the accounts, and, when completed, they were signed by that gentleman. Mr. Colenso said he was quite satisfied with the explanation. Audit Committee. Mr. Colenso, pursuant to notice, moved—- “ That a Select Committee be appointed to audit the published accounts of the Province for the year ending March 31st, 1861, such committee to consist of Messrs. Wilkinson, Tiflen, Kennedy, Edwards, and the mover.” —He need not say anything in support of tho motion just read, as there could be no objection to a committee of that kind being granted, seeing that such committee sat elsewhere. The Superintendent said there was nothing

he should desire more than to give every information respecting the public accounts. Before the appointment of an auditor he believed in the necessity for such a committee ; but the appointment of an officer of that kind, who was responsible both to the General and Provincial Governments, and whose duty it was to scrutinize every item, seemed to him to bo a sufficient guarantee to the public that the accounts were properly looked after. He saw no great object to be gained by such a course, but thought the member for the lown had been premature in bringing forward such a motion before the Government had had time to bring down the financial statement. Such a proceeding was unusual, seeing that an officer was already appointed to look after the accounts. Mr. Edwards seconded the motion, as ho believed the public accounts could not be too well looked after.

Mr. Kennedy should support the motion, not because he thought such a thing necessary, but because it was the practice in Wellington and other places to have such a committee appointed. Mv.'Tiffen should also support tho motion. It was the rule in Wellington to have such a committee, and, although he had every confidence in the Provincial Auditor, who was well fitted for the office, he thought it would bo more satisfactory to have a committee to examine the accounts of this Province.

Mr. Ormond was sorry to see that any idea should prevail amongst members of tho Government being opposed to the motion. They merely thought such a committee unnecessary for the reason assigned by his colleague, Mr. M’Lean. In looking over the motion, he noticed that it contained a majority of those members who had generally voted against the Government. He saw two who voted with tho Government last session, and three who voted against them. Mr. Wilkinson declined to sit on the committee.

Mr. Tifeen said ho should bo glad to withdraw his name. He did not, however, look upon it as a political question, and lie supported tho motion because it was the course adopted in other Provinces.

Mr. Fitzgeuaxb agreed with the member for Porangahau, that it contained a majority of the names of members opposed to Government. He thought, however, that the appointment of such a committee would bo a good thing for the Government ; at all events it would do them no harm. As had been already remarked, we could not have public money too well looked after, and he should support the motion. Mr. Cole.vso, in reply, said the reason he had chosen those members whoso names appeared in tho motion was because he had such a limited number to pick from, and he had chosen those, after mature consideration, who had mo>t time to spare, win;. umlm-st nod figures,, and who lived in town. Tho usual course was to choose members of committee by ballot, but (heir number was too small for that. In asking for such a committee be did so because it was the practice in the General Assembly, and in tho other Provinces. The need for it was not to test the accuracy of tlie figures of the Provincial Auditor, for he believed they would be found quite correct, but to examine the accounts thoroughly, and see how the money had been spent, whether it had been spent judiciously, and whether the contracts entered into had been kept. The Provincial Auditor bad drawn their attention to the tact of £BOOO having been spent without authority ! He must say this looked very queer. Mr. C. then gave several instances of sums having been spent on roads in excess of tho amount voted, and said, that although the expenditure in other years had been greater than that of tho year just past, tho unauthorised expenditure was not near so groat. By bringing forward this motion, be meant to see if the public money had been spent properly, and if it would meet the wishes of the Council he was willing to alter tho names.

The motion was then put and agreed to. Financial Stale of Province. Mr. Colenso, according to notice, moved—- “ Eor a financial statement of tho Province, and return shewing all the liabilities and assets of the Province at the present time, specifyingtho particulars of all such liabilities and assets.” —He brought forward this motion in order that the Council might know exactly how the Province stood with respect to its finances. He believed that the financial statement only came down to the 31st of March, but what he wanted was a return brought down to the present time, giving the items of receipts and expenditure under their various headings. Mr. M’Lean said the Government w'ore now preparing the accounts to the latest dates, as it was intended to alter the financial year to tho end of dune. The return would be furnished, and all the information called for. Crown Lands open for sale. Mr. Colenso, pursuant to notice, moved—- “ For a return of all the Crown Lands open for sale in the Province, shewing the quantity surveyed ; the district, run, and name of runbokler; the amount of township, suburban, bush, ten shilling, five shilling, land j specifying also where five shilling land has been certified to, with tho name of the run and the runholder.” —He thought tho motion spoke for itself, and he would merely remark that by having such a return before them they would be able to see what land was to be disposed of, and persons looking for land would be able to see where it was to be had. He thought such a return would be very useful, as he had heard persons say it was impossible to find out what land was open for selection. Mr. M’Lean said the return asked for would be prepared, and that the Government would use their energy to give every information as soon as possible. Land Purchases. Mr. Colenso, according to notice, moved—- “ For a return ofthe lands lately purchased from the natives, but not yet open for sale ; shewing their positions, acreage (approximate), and quality, and the amount paid for the same.” —ln proposing this motion ho thought he was asking for information which all would like to obtain. He supposed His Honor, as Chief Native Land Purchase Commissioner, would bo in a position to furnish the required information. He

had thought of inserting the words “ if not detrimental to the public service,” but refrained because he had concluded it would not be so. Mr. Tiffen said he should be guided in this matter by what fell from His Honor, as it was not always prudent to make public what had been done towards effecting the purchase of land from the natives. Mr. M’Lean said it was not always expedient to divulge all that was taking place in reference to the purchase of land ; but in this case the return would be laid on the table. He was sorry to say it was a very small one, and would embrace only two'pnrchases. On of them, however, he considered of great importance, and would, ho was happy to say, most likely cause the breaking up of the land league which had existed for some time. In the present state of the colony, however, it would inexpedient to attempt to'foree the purchase of land from the natives ; but there was a change going on in the native mind, and when once they began to sell, it would bo like the flowing of the tide. He hoped the time was not far distant when the wishes of the inhabitants !of this Province would be gratified. There had heen v a resolution passed last session with regard to the Ahuriri plains ; but the natives had always had a reluctance to part with them, and ho thought it would be unwise and impolitic to appear over anxious to acquire them. He had not of late found any great change in the native mind, and he had made a movement for a leasehold purchase with a view to their ultimate acquirement. He had obtained a promise also from two of the loading chiefs that they would not let those plains to private individuals, and one of them, ho was glad to say, had faithfully kept his word, although ho could not say so for the others. (Mr. M’Lean then read the correspondence which had passed between himself and the General Government on the subject, which will be found be, low). He had gone so far in explaining how matters stood, but there was an impression on his mind that there was a brighter prospect dawning in this question of land, and he was in hopes that, if the Council would say but little on the subject and not appear too anxious, he should be aide to effect something towards the great object they had in view. Ho was glad to see they were all united in opinion that these plains should be reserved for the purposes of agriculture, and he had used his endeavors to keep squatters from entering on and occupying them. He would place the return on the table, but it was a poor one. The Council then adjourned. Correspondence in reference io the I easing of the Ahuriri Plains. * Superintendent’s Office, Napier, 23rd January, ISGt. Snt, —I have the honor to enclose a Resolution of the Provincial Council of this Province respecting the leasing of the Ahuriri Plains. Tlie easy access to these plains, the fertility of the sod, and proximity to the town of Napier, renders it highly necessary that they should be reserved for the occupation of agricultural set tlors, indeed it is essential for the general prosperity and advancement of this province that such should be the case. Tlie Provincial Government having no power in this matter, appeal to the General Government ns to the course to be pursued, in the hope that such action may bo taken as should meet the desire expressed in the resolution of tlie Provincial Council. Considerable dissatisfaction has been recently manifested by the public of Napier in consequence of it being reported that a large portion of these Plains have recently been leased for a long term of years for the purpose of depasturing stock. I have the honor to be, Sir, Your most obedient servant, (Signed) DONALD M’LEAN, Superintendent. The Hon. The Colonial Secretary, Auckland. Superintendent’s Office, Napier, 2Sth Jan., 18G1. Sik, —In a conversation I have had yesterday with several of the chiefs who claim the lower Ahuriri Plains, I find they are at present indisposed to sell any of these lands that are so much desired by agricultural settlers. The reasons assigned by the natives for withholding the Plains arc, that they fear the introduction of a large European population, that their own cattle and stock are increasing so rapidly that they require a considerable extent of land to depasture them on, that all direct authority and control by them over the land would cease after its alienation, and that leasing, which they consider may be determined at any time on non-fulfilment of the conditions of lease, is much preferable to an absolute sale. Taking those objections into consideration, and anxious to avoid any pressure that might lead the natives to suspect that the Government, is too eager for the acquisition of land, also bearing in mind the unsettled state of our relations with the natives generally, I have abstained from using efforts which I might otherwise have done to acquire them by purchase. It occurs to me, however, that it might bo expedient to lease such portions of thejPlaius fora long term of years, which might afterwards bo sublet to agricultural settlers, and if there is no objection on the part of the General Government to this mode of proceeding, I shall enter into arrangements with the natives for the acquisition of such Blocks of land as t hey may be disposed to lease on reasonable terms. I have the honor to bo, Sir, Your most obedient servant, (Signed) DONALD M’LEAN, Superintendent. Tlie Hon. The Colonial Secretary, Auckland. Superintendent’s Office, Napier, 16th Feb., ISGL Sin, —Referring to my letter of the 23rd nit.,

respecting the leasing of the Ahuriri Plains, and the importance of securing them for agricultural settlors. 1 have the honor to acquaint you that since the date of that communication efforts hare been made by several individuals to lease the most valuable and available portion of the plains. These arrangements are calculated to lead to serious difficulties and complications, while the object contemplated by the Provincial Government of securing the land for agricultural settlement cannot be attained. 1 have, therefore, proposed to the natives that they should lease the whole of the lower Ahuriri'Plains for terms of fifteen and twenty-one years, to the Provincial Government. The native chiefs have agreed to this proposal, and I am in hopes that his Excellency’s Government will sanction the course adopted. Finding it impossible to complete a purchase of the land in question within any reasonable time, I have felt compelled to make the arrangements referred to in order to prevent a continuance of the evils resulting from the acts of private individuals. I bad less hesitation in doing so from being convinced (hat the ultimate purchase will not be prejudiced, but rather facilitated by the course adopted. Whenever the negociations are completed I will forward full particulars for your information. I roly upon the support of his Excellency’s Government in the action thus taken. It is probable that legislation may be necessary to enable the Provincial Government to carry out the proposed arrangements, and I rely with confidence upon the assistance of the Government in supporting any measure that may be brought before the House of Representatives for this purpose. I think It right to add that the agreement made is of a very beneficial nature, and calculated to advance the interests of the Province in every way. The land is of good average quality and from its situation eminently adapted for the settlement of Immigrants with small means. I have the honor to be, Sir, Your most obedient servant, {Signed) Donald M’Lean, Superintendent. Tbo Hon. The Colonial Secretary, Auckland. (37) Colonial Secretary’s Office, Auckland, 22nd Feb., 1861. Sut, —In reply to your Honor’s letter of the 16th inst, on the subject of leasing the Ahuriri Plains. I have to inform you that till the Government knows more precisely the nature of the arrangement, it cun express no opinion upon it; and whatever your Honor does, must done on your own responsibility. It will be prudent that you should intimate to the natives that the transaction cannot be considered binding till it receives the assent of the General Government, i have the honor to be, Sir, Pour most obedient servant, Willi Ail Fox. His Honor The Superintendent, Napier. (6' ! ) Colonial Secretary’s Office, Auckland, April 20, 186-1. Sir, —Referring to previous correspondence which has taken place with your Honor on the subject of leasing from the natives the Ahuriri Plains, 1 have to inform your Honor that after a careful consideration of the subject, the General Government docs not think itself justified in acquiescing in any such proposal, believing it to bo latal to the prospect of sales, and to greatly complicate the unsatisfactory position of the Government towards the holders of illegal leases under native tenancies.

Should, howovcr, tlie natives wish it, the recent Act authorising sales of Native Land to private individuals may possibly bo brought into operation within the Province of Hawke’s Bay. But the Government must not be taken as making any express promise to that effect, as political reasons might at the present crisis render such a course inexpedient. It must he understood that the Government will sanction no course which is not in strict conformity with law, nor any which might in any way appear to amount to an acquiescence in the irregular leasing transactions which are known to exist in Hawke’s Bay. 1 have the honor to be, Sir, Your most obedient servant, William Fox. His Honor The Superintendent, Napier.