PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume II, Issue 66, 2 October 1862, Page 5 (Supplement)

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Thursday, Sept. 25. The Council met pursuant, to notice, at 3 o'clock p.m. All the members were present with the exception of T. H. Fitz Gerald, A. Alexander, and Capt. Lambert. On the motion of Mr. Tiffen, seconded by Mr. Fitzgerald, Mr.. Rhodes acted as Speaker, in the absence of Capt. Lambert. The minutes of last sitting. having been read and confirmed," His Honor the Superintendent addressed the Council as follows : Mr. Speaker and. Gentlemen of the Provincial Council of Haiolce's JSay, — AV ben last I had the pleasure of meeting you in this room, and when I prorogued this Council I did not anticipate that it would bo necessary to call you together again during my term of office, believing, in common with yourselves, that we had provided for all the requirements of the Province consistently with our expected revenue. The reason for my calling you together this day has arisen from the resolution passed at the last session of this Council respecting the augmentation of the upset, price of unagricultural land, and an alteration of the Bth and 23rd clauses' of the Land Regulations, having been returned for the re-consideration of the Provincial Council by (he General Government, who have postponed action in t!io matter until they receive a distinct intimation from the Superintendent and Provincial Council whether they wish the upset price of unagrieultural land to be raised at once by an Order in Council, leaving the change in the Land Regulations to be made when practicable, by an Act of the General Assembly, or that the one alteration should not take place without the other. The circumstances under which .this resolution was passed by the Council are, doubtless, stall fresh in your recollection. I believe that if one portion of this resolution had become law, and the other port ion postponed it would have been contrary to the spirit and intention with which it was passed. It is not ray intention to bring any other business before this meeting, considering that the term for which the members of this Council were elected will expire in the early portion of next year ; and as 1 propose, witli the advice of my Executive, to apply shortly to His Excellency the Governor for a dissolution of the Council, in’order to give ample time for the election of members of the new one, with a view to the supplies for the ensuing year being provided for in due season, I do not consider we should be justified in interfering witli the duties which properly devolve upon our successors. One subject, however, it is necessary that I should bring to your notice and that of the constituencies ofthe Province, and that is the “vexed finesti m ” of the Wellington Debt, which is still in abeyance. \\ e, as well as the public, have been already made acquainted with the historv of (ho debt up to the t hue we last met in session. During the recent session of the General Assembly our representatives have not effected any adjustment of the debt, neither have they agreed on the course to be pursued to cause a settlement of it. On tin’s question there appear three alternatives open to ns:— iirst.—To abide by the provisions of the 15th clause of the New Provinces Act—that is, to contribute in proportion to our revenue. Second.—To refer (ho whole case to Commissioners to be chosen by each Province for final award, and for this purpose to appoint Commissioners in a similar manner as the Provincial Council of Wellington has done. Third.—To elect (hat flic case be brought before (he Supreme Court to be dealt with according to law. T may mention that, on account of interest on the permanent debt, £10,500 lias already been paid by this Province—viz., £2,500 from her Land Revenue, and £B,OOO advanced from the Land Purchase sixtiis in the hands of the General Government. My principal object in bringing the subject of (he W ellington Debt to your notice and that of the public is to afford an opportunity to the several constituencies, when electing members for the new Council, to express their wishes as regards it, so as to enable onr representatives in (lie next General Assembly to ask a settlement, supported by the expressed opinion of the province, and especially as it was expected that we shall be definitely prepared by next session of the General Assembly to adjust the question at issue. 1 take the present opportunity of laying before you a report from the Provincial Engineer on the state oi (he harbour, accompanied by a plan shewing the alteration which lias taken place since dredging operations ceased in January last. As decided upon by the Council last session, the Provincial Government have endeavoured to carry out the wish cxpresecl by it, that the steam dredge should be sold. It has been offered for sale to the several Provincial Governments in the Colony, without producin'* any result. Hie report also of the provincial Engineer of the public works completed during the first six muiiiiis of the present year and of (lie state of roads in the Province, shall be laid before you, together with the correspondence respecting’ the resolutions passed during last session relating to I .-easing of Native Land Lands, and Hampden Agricultural Reserve; also to the “ Athemeum J rust Act,” to which His Excellency the Governor has withheld his assent. -ilis Lonor then said, before proceeding with (he business which had called them together, there was a matter which he would

bring before their notice, namely,, the question as to whether the seat, of Mr. T. 11. Fitzgerald, win had left the <■ )! my without tendering Ids resignation, and w.,s said to be insolvent, was vacant, within the meaning of the 10th clause of the Constitution Act. He brought the matter before them in accordance with the provisions of clause 11. Mr. Colenso thought it was not incumbent on them to notice it, as it could scarcely be considered legally to come under the Constitution Act. Hr. HiTcnijrcs said he thought it,no place to discuss the question of insolvency, fur they might question the solvency of all present. Mr. Ormond said that as die matter had been referred to them they were bound to deal with it, and be would move that, in the opinion of the Council the seat of the member for Napier (Mr. Fitz Gerald) was not vacant within the meaning of clause 10 of the Constitution Act. Mr. Tiffen seconded the motion, which was carried. His Honor laid on the table the following papers ; Correspondence in reference to the raising of (lie price of ss. land to 10s. Letter from the Colonial Secretary in reference to the disallowance of the Athenonmi Act. Correspondence between the Superintendent and the General Government, as well ns the Civil Commissioner, on the subject of the leasing of native lands. Correspondence in reference to Hampden agricultural reserve. Report of Provincial Engineer for half year ending June 30, ISG2. Report of Provincial Engineer on the state of the harbour. Some notices of motion having been given, t.he Council adjourned till the following day. Friday, Sept. 20. The Council met at 3 p.m. Present—All the members excepting Capt. Lambert, T. H. Fitz Gerald, and A. Alexander. The Clerk read the minutes of the preceding day. Mr. Triphook begged leave to ash His Honor the Superintendent, whether any provincial funds have been paid to the trustees of the Napier Athenaeum, and, if so, when, to whom, at whose request, for what purpose specified, and whether the Superintendent and Provincial Auditor have taken any steps to insure such money being spent Mr the purpose to which it has been voted ; as also in whose custody are such funds at the present time ; also, whether it is until for the Superintendent and Provincial Auditor to sanction payments by the Treasurer, before purposes for which money has been voted have been carried out. The Superintendent, in reply, said that the sum of j-200, vote ! last year towards the erection of the Athenaram, was paid to the Treasurer and trustees, at their ollicial request, ami on their receipt being taken for it. He did not consider it his duly, or that of the Provincial Auditor, to see the money expended, as the persons who received the money were responsible to the public. The reason, he believed, of the money not being expended was that the site in Clive square was not considered a suitable one. The money was now deposited in the Bank of New Zealand, bearing interest at 5 per cent. In reply to the last question, he said it. was not usual for the Treasurer to make such payments as the question referred to. The official application was laid on the tah'e by His Honor. The suspension of Standing Pule No. 27 having been carried, Mr. Triphook moved.— That whereas Ills Excellency the Governor has been pleased to withhold his assent to the Xupior Athenaeum Trust Act, as stated in the Colonial Secretary’s letter to the Superintendent of the Province of Hawke’s Bay, hearing date March (5, 18(52. this Council hereby requests and authorizes the Superintendent to demand a refund of any provincial funds which may have been paid to the trustees of the Xapicr Alheuamm. and to expend the same on a suitable building for (he Athemcum, in accordance with plan and specification to be prepared and carried out under the supervision of the Privincial Engineer on such site as the Superintendent and Council shall now determine. —His object in bringing forward this motion was to prevent the vote lapsing; and for the Council to determine the site. Mr. Wood seconded the motion. The Speaker suggested that the Council should go into committee. Mr. Triphook asked for the letter relating io (lie motion to he read, which was done. Mr. Ormond thought the better course would be to amend the Act that had been disallowed. Mr. Triphook thought it the duty of those who had it passed to-have it revised. Hr. Hitchings spoke warmly respecting the funds being under the sole control (if one individual. His Honor said he would endeavour, if it were the wish of the Council, to get the Act prepared by to-morrow.

Mr. Fitzgerald then moved— That the Act to enable the Superintendent of Hawke’s Bay to convey to trustees a reserve in the Town of Nr.pier as the site for the Napier Mechanics’ Institute, and disallowed by His Excellency the ‘ Governor, be amended by the Superintendent and brought before the Council to-morrow. Cupt. Gaulyon seconded the motion, which was curried. THE PlilCE OF LAND. Mr. Ormond rose and said the notice standing in his name had been given somewhat unadvisedly, inasmuch as he thought the object in view might be attained by a specific resolution ; which he thought would be the course the Council would have to pursue. As he had been the cause of the Council being called together, be would give some explanation of the action he bad taken upon one of the subjects referred to in the address, the responsibility of which lie had taken upon himself. The Council would recollect the circumstances under which the resolution aiiecting the price of non-agricultural land was passed last session. He trusted lie should not be wanting in respect to the Council if he remarked that they could not hut look hack with regret to these circumstances. It was generally admitted that the resolution was passed in haste, and without mature consideration. By that resolution, all the land would have to be disposed of at the same price, good and bud. This, lie thought, would stamp it as a hasty measure, and on other grounds the increase of price was ill-advised. Writh these views he went to Wellington to take his seat. By chance he saw a gazette, printed hut not circulated, wherein he found an Order of Council by which that portion of the resolution having reference to raising the price of land was made law. Believing, ns he firmly did, that the effect of this resolution would be to shfit up our provincial establishments, and indeed to cut short the very existence of the province, he used every endeavour to get the matter postponed, and after much difficulty succeeded in gaining time for the matter to he referred back to the Provincial Council. In doing this, be thought be bad done good by preventing the measure becoming Jaw. . he practical way to look at it was this ; bad the Order in Council come into operation, he did not believe the land revenue would exceed <£'3ooo a year; in fact that sum would be large considering the present position of the public estate. The customs revenue would probably yield another ATOOO. Cut of (In's they would have to pay A£soo interest on the Wellington debt, and a heavy balance to the land fund account, which w.m!d leave the province without funds. Instead of having something to carry on government, we should he the most miserable of all miserable provinces. We should be in debt. He would ask the Council that to come to a decision that the price of land should remain at, the same price it bad been of late. Ine Wellington debt bad also been mentioned in the .Superintendent’s speech, ami he might say, in reference to this matter, that he found the position of himself and colleague in the Assembly very difficult, and the responsibility very great. He thought they could go the Assembly with more confidence it backed by the opinion of the Council, and he should advise the attention of the constituencies to he directed to this matter during the recess, so as to learn their opinion, and so instruct the members of Assembly to act in a business-like manner, which might lead to a settlement of the question that would be of such a character, us to pounds, shillings, and pence, as would be best fur the whole province. It would have been folly to have gone info the question this session, as be and his colleague did not wholly agree. The Wellington people had promised to take no steps in the meantime; and he thought they should be much stronger if this course were adopted. Mr. Colenso felt a difficulty in referring to the speech of the Superintendent, seeing that it included many topics besides those mentioned by the member for Borangahau, Had be had time to find out the number of acres sold since Ids absence, be might have a different view with regard to the question referred to. Whilst in Wellington, lie was taunted by the Superintendents of other provinces with the wasting of land in this province. Mr. Moorhouse had asked him if it was clayey, rocky land ; and Mr. Bichardson, a gallant and out-spoken gentlemen, had upbraided him with the state to which flu 1 province was reduced. The resolution had been characterised as hasty,—that while they could raise the ss. land to 10s., they could not raise the price of 10s. land, ami that our land revenue would be reduced, by locking up the land at 10s. per acre, to about <£3ooo. Supposing the land left worth say <£50,000, it would be better to have it coming in gradually than that the whole should

be sold iu a year or two, and then have no revenue at all. Mr. Ormond would point out that the way in which the price of land might be raised could be done under a clause of the Waste Lands Act, whereby the Superintendent had power to except from private sales lands that he considered worth more than 10s. per acre. Mr. Tiffen, in reply to Mr. Colenso, said that the uuagricultural land selected was better than that which was left; but that very little had been applied for. Dr. Hitchings thought the question before the house a runholding one, or the member for Porangahau would not have taken such pains to bring this matter before them. He believed them the most favored class of men in the whole Colony. They got their runs by priority of application, for little or nothing, and beiieiitted the rest of the no more than by giving employment to a few shepherds. They must all look back with regret at the waste of land in this province. He did not accuse the Commissioner of certifying to land that was worth more than ss. per acre, but thought he helped them a good deal in their acquirement of land. The runholders were a fraternity—a brotherhood. He would move as an amendment that the ss. land be raised to 10s. and the 10s. land to 205., by which he would stand or fall, and he hoped it would be carried. Standing order 27 having been suspended Mr. Ormond moved— That in reference to the resolution passed by this Council on the 25th March, ISG2, relating to the conditions under which unagricultural land should be disposed of in the Province of Hawke’s Bav after the Ist September 18G2 ; Also recommending that the upset price of the same class of land should be increased to ten shillings, referred to the Council for amendment;—the Council resolves that it is undesirable to make anv change in the upset price of unagricultural laud. —With reference to the remark made by Mr. Colenso, that if a resolution being passed years ago, raising the price of land, they wouhfhave been in a better position, be said be agreed perfectly. With regard to the class to which he belonged, he might say that had the resolutions brought forward by that class some time ago been acted upon, they would now have a large and valuable estate; and he thought it ungenerous for members to say they had been working for class purposes. At the present time the best of the estate bad been purchased,—the remainder was certainly the worst part; in fact he believed the land to the north of the town not to be worth ss. an acre. He believed they would have enough to carry on Government at the present rate of land prices, fora number of years. It must in the end come to local taxation ; but before that time arrived, be trusted the whole of the provinces would he swept awav, and that they would be replaced by a strong central Government. Dr. Hitchings moved— That it is the opinion of this Council that the present so-called os. or duly certified uuagrieultural lauds in the Province of Hawke’s Pay be raised to ton shillings, and the agricultural land of the Province to be raised to one pound per acre. —He, in bis former remarks, said perhaps more than he intended, hut he was right iu the main. If this resolution were passed, it would have the effect of keeping in hand an estate which would every year become more valuable. Mr, Colenso seconded the amendment pro forird. Mr. Triphook was inclined to vote against the original motion mure that the province might be protected against the irresponsible acts of the Commissioner of Crown Lands, than from any other cause, and to which he altogether objected. It was monstrous to suppose that one man could certily to the quantity and quality of laud in every part of the province. The Commissioner, too, when any legal difficulty arose had to consult the Provincial Solicitor, who was himself a land agent. He did not object to the cheapness, but to the Commissioner having power to certify to laud for persons of the class to which he belonged, and to the reckless untunes in which the lands were dealt with. He believed Mr. Ormond to be simply the mouthpiece of the Commmissioner of Crown Lands. Mr. Dolbel opposed the amendment, believing that if it were passed it would be t he downfall of the province. Had it been passed three years ago it might have been of some use, but not now. He bel.eved it would drive away the working class of the province, and lead to direct taxation. Mr. Wood moved — That this Council do leave the consideration of dealing with the Land .Regulations to its successors, shortly to be elected. —He thought it would be be better to leave the matter to their successors. Mr. Triphook seconded the amendment. Mr. Ormond would point out that there must be some expression of opinion from the council within a limited time, or it would be-

come law. It the Government got no answer they would act upon it. Mr. Triphook apprehended that they would then simply raise the price of ss. land. Mr. Colenso thought the last amendment could scarcely be entertained, because they must return an answer to the letter on the table. The last amendment would be of no use, as it would not answer the letter, and he could not vote for it; but he would support the first amendment. Mr. Wood begged leave to add the following words to his amendment—“ And that the General Government be requested to defer action till after the first meeting of the next council.” He did not think the General Government would be so unreasonable as not to grant a request of this kind. Mr. Triphook seconded the amendment, which was negatived. The first amendment was then put, and the Council divided as follows; —Noes, 7, Messrs. Carter, Ormond, Fitzgerald, Dolbel, Carlyon, Curling, and Tiffen. Ayes, 4. Messrs. Colenso, Hitchings, Triphook, and Wood. The original motion was then carried on division, the names being the same as above. Mr. Wood j>ut the following standing in his name:— To ask the Superintendent what proportion of the money voted for the Clive road lias already been spent, and what, if any, are the reasons that the remainder be not applied at once to metalling and forming such parts of the afore-mentioned road as are yet unfinished and all but impassable. 11 is Honor replied that the amount expended up to this time was £571, leaving £319 balance of £BOO voted. But there was some further expenditure not included, which left only £lB5 actually available, winch might be applied to parts of the road alluded to, if the bridge over the Awapuni, could be dispensed with, and he thought it could, provided about, £2O were expended on the old crossing; which course would be followed. The Council then adjourned till the following day, when the question as to the site tor the Athemeum was fixed to be in Clive square. The following items were also voted to be expended—On the x-oad between t live and Havelock, £500; on the Te Ante road, between Havelock and Waipukurau, £IOOO ;on the middle road, between Ngawhakatatara and Tamuimi. via Waitakai, £l5O ; on the Porangahau road, £300; for Bridge over the Ma.raetotara, £IOO ; for the benefit of the Mohaka district, £2OO ; —Total, £2250. A motion was also carried empowering the Superintendent to treat for the subsidizing of a steamer to run at such times as to ensure bi-monthly steam communication with Wellington.