HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume II, Issue 58, 7 August 1862, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Feidat. July 25tit, 1862. The Speaker took flic chair at 12 o’clock. RESPONSIBILITY OF THE COLONY IN NATIVE AFFAIRS. Mr. FOX having made a slight alteration in his resolution, said that in bringing it before the House, he found he had little to add to what he had said when moving the introduction of the Native Lands Bill, and when he laid the native policy before the House. He then touched upon all the leading points in the papers before them, and of the policy indicated ; it would not, therefore, be possible for him to add anything new. He hoped, however, that hon. members in the discussion which he expected would take place on this resolution, would be able to throw some additional light on the question it referred to. He had stated what had been the course of the Ministry up the present time ; he intimated that they had acted in strict accordance with the resolution passed by the House last session. lie thought ho had received a very general assent that the Ministry, in acting as they had done, had acted in the only way they could, having regard to the resolution. Ho intimated to the House li ini' tlio time vTttS corno if the lloiisg wished to alter the relations between His Excellency and the Ministry—to define the precise relations which should subsist between His Excellency and his Ministers on native affairs. He thought the proper course for the House to adopt was simply to lay down some broad basis of relations, which should be the relations between His Excellency and His Ministers. He thought it would not bo well to define those relations too closely or minutely; if thatwere done, they might involve both in difficulties from which no logical acumen could extricate them. The resolution which he had the honour to move might be considered to be defined in t wo portion. He then stated—“ That while this House disclaims, on the part of the

Colony, the exclusive responsibility of the cost of educating, civilizing, and governing the native race; while it equally disclaims liability for the principal share of the cost of suppressing insurrections of a people over whom the Imperial Government has never practically established the authority of law ; it will at all times cheerfully recognise its duty to co-operate to the extent of its ability and means with Great Britain, for the attainment of these objects, so essential to the welfare of the Colony. Coming to New Zealand as thev had, he did not believe the exclusive cost should fall upon them. Had they, however, been in an entirely fresh position in these matters he must frankly admit he would be inclined to say that coming astheyhadto Now Zealand, they would have been bound, upon every ground of justice and generosity, to take upon themselves the whole duty of educating, civilizing, and governing the native people, and they would have been bound also, if for no other reason, for their own self-defence, to suppress insurrections at their own entire cost. It was desirable that they should disclaim tho responsibility which, if circumstances had been otherwise, there would be no necessity to disclaim. They did not entirely disclaim tho principal share of tho cost of the insurrection. What that principal share might be it was not possible to determine. It was not possible to impose upon the Colony any further portion than the Colony vyas able to pay. In point of fact, they were only hable for a very small portion. The cost to the Imperial Government was about £1,000,000, whilst that ot the Colony would be considerably less than £IOO,OOO, at the present time. While they disclaimed assuming more than their just share of the responsibility, they wished to express that they would at all times cheerfully recognise their duty to co-operate to the greatest extent of their ability and means with Great Britain, for the attainment of the objects so essential to the welfare of this Colony. If they had not inserted some clause like that in the resolution, it might bo said that they were desirous of throwing off all responsibility or liability. The insurrection was an Imperial problem, not less than a colonial problem. He would now come to the practice part of the question. W hat were to be the relations between His Excellency and his Ministers ? The expressions of the resolution he moved were almost identical with those of the resolution passed last session. He had hold that there was not any other means of carrying ou the Government thau by Ministerial responsibility in native affairs, at all events to some extent. At this present crisis, it would neither be right or prudent to have the entire responsibility ; an exception to that effect was necessary. As he intimated, he could see no other way in which the Government could be carried on—it was utterly impossible to govern the natives by separate administrations; “European and Native interests where so mixed up. If they attempted it, they would find that they had so fettered their Ministers that they could not for a day carry on European affairs. For instance, if the Governor thought fit to declare Wellington and Hawke’s Bay native provinces, as he had°the power to do, without or against the advice of the Ministers, consisting of all the native land within those districts which had not been alienated, what would be the result ? The Responsible Ministers would consider what effect such proclamation would have upon the Europeans; and (hey would say it will throw a barrier in tbo way of colonisation. If they reverted to the system that had been condemned, he might use his Ministers as mere machines to obey his will, and they mioht go back and restore the old Native Secretary's department. That was a position which his Executive would not allow themselves to accept, (hear, hear). If they were to maintain their constitutional rights, he saw no nay of escape unless they accepted some share of the responsibility. There was another difficulty. That was, that the whole of the legislation now rested upon tho basis that the whole of the machinery must be brought into operation. The power which he clearly had°in 1856, was as clearly taken from him in 1850. The lion! member then proceeded to quote from the speech of Under-Secretary Eortcscue. Ho thought the House should adopt the resolution as a basis on which their arrangements between the high contracting parties, as the hon. gentleman pleased to term them, should rest. He believed it was the basis upon which, for some years to come, it was desirable the relations should be rested. In conclusion he might add that there was no material difference of opinion among Ministers on this resolution scarcely any difference in the smallest particular. He now begged to move the resolution standing in his name. Mr. WOOD seconded the resolution. Mr. FITZGERALD said he had waited till tho last moment for some hon. member to rise and try to prevent this resolution passing. He earnestly hoped the House would not assent to such resolution ; it was a groat blow to the dignity, the power and the authority of the House (hear, hear). Although he had listened with the deepest attention to the hon. member, be had not his ideas cleared as to what is was he (Mr. Fox) wanted the House to do. lie assumed where the responsibility went the cost went also. If the resolution were carried it would get rid of an unfortunate memorandum of which the hon. member was the author. The resolution would remove the cog-wheels and connecting rods of the machine to connect the Executive and tho Legislature. It was the Executive as a whole which he would hold responsible to the House, and not any individual member of it. It was to tho ministerial benches, whoever may occupy them, they must look for rcspnsibility (hear, hear); that was the proposition ho (Mr. F.) wished the House to affirm (hear, hear). They could not divest the House of any portion of the authority which belonged to it. It could not be got rid of. He would oppose tho resolution without moving any amendment. It was evident that tho House must be in a state of party and political anarchy when such a resolution was proposed. Ho would rather that the House would simply refuse to pass this resolution with the intention at some future time to pass a more considered one. They did not know what might be the results of passing such a resolution, or what it might be not let them in for. He would wish tho House to take and recognise the charge of the Native race as a special trust given them by Providence. Ad-

mitting their desire to assume the responsibiliy they must say the colony is not strong enough, or populous, or wealthy enough, to undertake the entire burden of the management of Native affairs, and the Home Government would meet them with the most ample assistance in men and money. If they did not take some step to have the entire responsibility, they would leave the Colony in the same state that it had been in since this House was created. He did not care who administered Native affairs so long as he could have a Ministry entirely responsible for that administration. This resolution, if carried, would pledge them to the same indecision that they had been pursuing. What the House wanted to know was, who is responsible for the management of Native affairs (hear, hear). If they were to have responsibility they should have it entire. They should either accept the whole Government of the Natives, or a strong line of demarkation should be drawn, and the native districts marked off. He would prefer that the House should accept the whole government, but not from any spirit of hostility to the present Government, for he agreed with their Native policy, but merely in the hope on some future day a more definite one might be arrived at. Mr. MOORHOUSE looked upon the resolution to be a direct enquiry whether they would accept a dictatorship or not. They could not tell what this resolution was. He agreed with the hon. member for Ellesmere that pecuniary consequences ought not to lead them to shirk any responsibility that was justly due, but he thought any absolute dictatorship would not bo a very desirable state of things, lie looked upon it as committing themselves to the first step of a course the ultimate weight of which cannot be estimated—they would commit themselves to an absolute reliance on the administration of the Governor. If the papers were to be taken as an indication of what they were to expect, he was bound to express his most decided opposition. The plan was no plan at all. The papers expose nothing further than that His Excellency is to have the appointment of a number of persons whose chief recommendation was not a knowledge of Maori character, but that they had been military officers, and consequently so accustomed to discipline they would obey orders, (hear, hear.) It was a frightful anomaly —that little fact alone was sufficient to inspire distrust, (hear, hear.) If the will of Providence removed Sir George Grey from the earth, or the pleasure of the homo authorities should be to translate him to another colony, and provide this one with another excellent man, with entirely different views, what would become of the native policy ? He'would maintain there was no plan at all. He believed Sir George Grey’s policy would meet with a very grave and careful consideration. Ho hoped his hon. friends the Ministers, would not suspect him of any desire to remove them—but he could say they would not get any support, he it worth what it may—unless he saw something amounting to a plan, (hear, hear.) It was due to the country, it was due to those for whom they were asked to accept the responsibility —that they should have a system that might be followed by His Excellency’s successor, (hear, hear.) In considering native matters they must ascertain what is the Maori, and convince themselves that the Maori is a man. Of that he was convinced and the great mistake was that he had been regarded as a child. They had talked to him in the language of the Nursery. Physically the Maorics were their equals ; their intellect was susceptible of a high degree of culture, and they could reason as the European. In the first place they must have a clearly defined system. The material exists for making it, and he was convinced that it must, be the work of a civil missionary. It must be done by those who would devote themselves entirely to the task. As regards the expense, it would be very trifling. If this were done they might advise sending away the military at once. He would warn the House against accepting this resolution, as a great deal of evil would result from it. The great rottenness in the state of native affairs was apparent. They should clearly and distinctly declare what shall for the future be the relations of Ministers to the Governor and the House in native affairs, which the resolution did not do. He would vote against the resolution not in any spirit of hostility, because he believed that a change of ministers would not tend to improve the state of affairs. If at the same time they shewed a decided determination to abide by such undefined resolutions, ho would at all times feel bound, if no other member would come forward, to oppose them, (hear.) Mr. O’NEILL said there was an awkwardness in giving a silent vote on such an important question as that now before the House, and he would shrink from occupying the attention of hon. members, even for the few minutes he was now about to take, were it not that his vote, when recorded, might be interpreted in a manner which ho should not like. He would altogether dissent from the views expressed by the two hon. members who last addressed the House, because they have been looking at the subject from a Middle Island point of view ; neither would he accept ministerial responsibility in native affairs, as enunciated in the resolution proposed for our consideration by the hon. the Colonial Secretary, because in his opinion the whole question was an Imperial one, and he should be sorry to see it taken out of the hands of the Governor. His Excellency, he believed, had large powers, would be well supported by the Imperial Government and the colonists are willing to give him their utmost assistance, but the colonists will certainly decline assuming responsibility for the too expensive scheme of introducing institutions of a doubtful character amongst the Maories, and as it was the policy of the home authorities, or of Lowmiig-sii-oet, if they liked it better, suggested by the Maori sympathisers here, he felt it to be his duty to leave the rcsponsibilty entirely with the Governor, and in his opinion Ministers ought not to have anything to do in carrying out the present policy, unless so far as the mere act of asking this House for such sums of money as the settlers may fairly he expected to pay. He had the greatest confidence in the Governor’s ability, and although he did not believe in the scheme, he would not by his vote throw any difficulties in his way; on the contrary ho desired that his plan might have a fair trial, although he was of opinion that trial would end in disappointment. Too much attention was paid by this House to the native

question, to the evident exclusion of the interests of the settlers ; everything that was done now must of course be for the poor natives, and yet that money would be far better spent in opening up the country. The £50,000 a-yeav which was to bo expended for some years to come on the natives, would bo of more lasting benefit to both races by being spent in making roads and bridges. When he came to this country, many years ago, the natives were a peaceable and contented people’ because they had to work hard. If they wanted clothing, they had to plant potatoes and wheat, so as to have produce for the market to supply themselves with those necessaries ; if they desired to purchase a coasting vessel, they were obliged to come into town and offer a part of their lands to Government for money sufficient to purchase the vessel, but the moment the Government began to make large presents to the natives, this happy state of things came to an end, and now that the natives were receiving such heaps of money, there was no further need of their selling their land, nor paying that attention to labor which they formerly did ; the land was kept out of the market, and the natives were becoming a positive nuisance both to their own pahs and the European settlements. Where are there any good fruits from the new institutions ? Let them look for a moment at the Bay of Islands District, where the Natives were peaceable aud happy. You have taken up the old Protectorate then, they are receiving large salaries, and probably one-third of the natives there were paid by the Government, aud it was now pretty well known that the other two-thirds were dissatisfied, so that the new institutions, instead of promoting peace and happiness, have been there productive of discontent, aud at Hawke’s Bay the state of things was found to be absolutely deplorable. He had no faith in the new policy, but as it was enunciated by the Governor, he was willing to give it a trial. He would, however, vote against the resolution of Ministers,' because he believed it was no part of their business to interfere with a question purely of an Imperial character. Mr. J. C. RICHMOND moved the adjournment of the debate. Mr. JOLLIE seconded the adjournment. The motion was subsequently withdrawn. Mr. CO LEX SO must vote against the resolution. He would do so not from any political opposition to the Ministry, but because it recognised an unconstitutional proposition. He disclaimed not only the political responsibility, but the entire responsibility in native affairs. Mr. GEORGE GRAHAM said, by the laws of the 1 and the Maoris were unable to make use of their wealth, which consisted of land. The laws deprive them of putting it to use in the way it would be most advantageous to them. They should not leave the matter in an undecided state. While they locked up the lands of the native, they were bound to assist the Government in passing this resolution. Mr. HARRISON thought any conclusion the House might come to on this resolution would have very little effect. The hon Mr. WOOD, after some opening remarks, said he perhaps might be permitted to refer to a memorandum by Ministers to show what was the course, step by step, taken by Ministers. They started upon the basis of the resolution passed last session, which had so often been referred to. Next, wbat was the position of Ministers in reference to this resolution ? His hon. colleague had slated that he did not think it advisable that the relations between his Excellency and his Ministers should be defined too minutely. That was the opinion of the Government generally. The House had refused to go on with the business until the relations were determined. The Government then feeling it would bo their duty not to leave it to private members to bring in a resolution, but to bring in one themselves, having in view the determination of those relations, placed the one now before the House on the notice paper. If that resolution was simply negatived, the Ministers would understand that they remained as they were ; but on the other Hand it was advisable he should state what would be the result of any amendment on that resolution if carried. If any amendment were carried the Ministers would feel it their duty to—[The alternative was not stated]. —As he stated before, their course was based upon the resolution of last session, which they regarded as instructions, and this House should show good cause for altering that resolution before wc altered it. It was not advisable to make that alteration for some time to come. If it had appeared from the papers laid upon the table that the ministers had set the resolutions at naught, or that they had exceeded the vote which the House had passed, he could understand the opposition. That vote was passed by the House unanimously upon one consideration, that it should be expended by the Governor in Council. Before they made any material alteration in the relations (no, no). He heard “no, no” from every direction (hear, hear). Was ho to understand that they were not to he trusted with the carrying out of the resolution, and was it because they have less confidence of the House P Without some cause of that kind he could not understand these expressions of dissent. As for the hon. member for the Northern Division, who thought the position of Ministers ought to be merely that of messengers between his Excellency and this House; he thought the hon. member, in his own economical views, would have suggested some less expensive means than an Executive Council for the mere purpose of carrying a message between his Excellency and the House. If that was all Ministers had to do—[Mr. O’NeilXj : “ In Native affairs”]—it would be bettor to sweep them away altogether, and substitute some person who might do the duty equally well and at much less cost. There was a very distinct plan, clear and intelligible, which would be seen on reference to E. No. 2, p. 10. The object of his Excellency was to give to tho natives a share of the local management of native affairs. Another part of that plan was to enable tbo natives to enjoy that which hitherto they had never enjoyed, the full advantages to be derived from self-government. The plan also included the making of roads through the Native lands—[Major Richaudson : “With or without the consent of the natives?”]—With their consent. The hon. members could not suppose that Ministers, nor would they themselves, think of making roads

through any man’s property without assent. As to the possibility or practicability of carrying out the new institutions, there are two ways in which the Colony could bo governed ; either through the means this resolution suggested, or by plating the wliqle power in the hands of the Governor. The debate was then adjourned until the orders of the day were disposed of. The House adjourned at 5 o’clock until 7. RESUMED DEBATE ON THE MINISTERIAL RESOLUTION. At 7 o’clock the House again met, and the debate on Mr. Fox’s resolution was resumed. Mr. JOLLIE said be wished the resolution had not been put so hurriedly before the House. Under the circumstances be did not think it necessary to go very fully into the philosophy of the question. He would take and refer to the responsibility they were called upon to resume—a responsibility which they never before possessed or asked for, and were not in a position to bear—as it interfered with the arrangements of the settlers. To that he traced the evils which they now had under consideration. As one thoroughly conversant with the history of the colony and of the Treaty of Waitangi, he disavowed the right, justice, or morality of England to transfer to the settlers the responsibility which attaches to England (hear, hear). To the Imperial Government throughout the responsibdity was duo. He said this not with any desire to make the case stronger against the Imperial Government, which, he would acknowledge, had ever shown them great consideration. That had been the policy of the Imperial Government, and the policy of the Governor they sent out, and they have been intensifying the evils ever since. He would come to the time of Colonel Gore Browne, whose proceedings seemed to bo governed by constitutional views. When he came to deal with the question of the Maoris on Ins own independent responsibility, there were circumstances to show that he had at least arrived at a consistent and just knowledge of them, and what was due to them, and ho was disposed to do his duty to them as an English gentleman (hear, hear). Governor Browne, when he had time to sec about him, applied himself to doing justice, at the same time upholding the dignity he represented (hear, hear). This policy of Governor Browne had not been acted upon by the new Governor. It might be justifiable, and lie would admit it was, considering the circumstances of the country, that anew course should be tried. It seemed to him the Ministers were justified iu not carrying out the terms offered by Governor Browne. In lieu of that plan the country had before it for its approval or disapproval an entirely new policy, which might be aptly termed a “peace-at-any-price” policy He founded on tins the observation that it was impossible for the House to assume responsibility in native affairs. The non-exccution of the terms proposed by Governor Browne imposed on the Government now in office the responsibility to this House. They promised no execution of these terms, and when they found themselves unable to do it, they should have appealed to the House and to the country; they failed to carry out the terms, but si ill remained on these benches —(hear, Leaf). With regard to Taranaki, its present state he considered a disgrace to the British name—(hear, hear) —and a standing menace to the settlers—(hear, hear). Even the prospect of almost certain war would be more welcome to him than the present state of affairs—(hear, hear). The case of Taranaki was a very different one from any other. The first instalment of the debt due by the Imperial Government to this colony, was the termination of the state of things at Taranaki, —(hear, hear). The war was their own act, and the settlement of it shonl d be theirs also. They may get another Governor—a man with another policy—clothed with all the powers f 0 conduct the country and its institutions. No course short of a total declaration of non-responsibility. The policy before them was one that to have any good effect must have his Excellency present to work it; to another man in his place he believed it would be a failure. If the British government would not accede to the prayers that had been made from time to time, if they would not do that, then it would become flic course to become very careful, and beware wbat they were about. He would say to the House “ give the Government what supplies you can, and take as little responsibility as you can for it.”—(hear). Mr. WELD said—At the very commencement of the colony feelings of suspicion were raised by the Colonial Office and its supporters, in the minds of the natives against the settlers. He was not prepared to enter on the question of native policy until ho obtained more definite information as to the relations between the Governor and his advisers. Ho did not feel satisfied wifli the state of things—the fate of the Native race was trembling in the balance. And now whatever Governor or Ministry should assume the power, the task was so difficult that be would consider the man who would save the race from the extinction towards which they were fast verging—a truly great man deserving well of the colony and ho might say of the whole human race—(hear, hear). On both sides there was an earnest desire to save the native race, though that end was determined by what some persons considered severity. If they had been placed at the commencement in a different position, in reference to matters, they would now be in a better position—(hear, bear). He believed at this present moment it would be worse than madness—it would be an overwhelming misfortune if the sole management of native affairs were left"to us—(hear, hear). As to the Treaty of Waitangi he could not but feel that it was a sham and a delusion—a snare to trap the native. Had it been otherwise ho would have felt bound to support it to the utmost. It would be asked, did ho mean that they were not bound by that treaty ? He did not mean that. They are bound by every word of the Treaty of Waitangi. They would have a right to stand here on the ground that when a nation was incapable of defending itself from intestine feuds, a powerful Government, like England, arc right in stepping in and saying,— “ We will take the sovereignty, wo will raise you to our level, but we will not allow dreams of'nationality to spring up. We have taken the sovereignty, and wo take the responsibiliy of that.” The Imperial Government would, at first, have been justified in taking the sovereignty in this manner, and imposing its laws. The cole-

nists never assumed the sovereignty on the part of the British Empire ; they never could have done so ; they could now only bo loyal subjects, and he (rusted they would always bo. He would not be a party to considering this question in a party spirit. What they had to consider was what they could do, and do it. They could not bear the responsibility of carrying out the British sovereignty ; it would have been wise at an earlier period had the control of native afiaivs been given to the colonists. When they would not give ns the control of native aiiairs, it resolved itself to this :—There is a power, and where the power is there is the responsibility. He felt bound to oppose the resolution, because lie saw that the time had come when they must have a clear and distinct understanding —which the resolution did not give. Don’t let us keep up a little sham of power without any real benefit. Mr. GILLIES said, in speaking on this question lie would not do so solely as the representative of 20.000 colonists—one-fifth of the entire population of the colony—whom he had the honour to represent, but as the representative of the Colony in its entirety. He desired also to treat the question entirely apart from pecuniary reasons. He felt bound to thank the Ministry for fairly bringing the matter before the House, in a fair, honest, straightforward way that they could understand, and the House ought to meet them in the same honest spirit in winch they had met the House. Let us not make our principles a mere negation ol theirs, but state firmly what arc our opinions. If they told him the question was to bo a ministerial question, then he would say ho was not prepared to accept the result. He would state fairly and honestly what his opinions w ere, hut he had no wish to turn the Ministers out; neither did ho think any other members had. Ho would speak his own mind without reference to others. The question resolved itself into three conditions ; Eirst, the one extreme, either the Ministry or the Colony were not responsible for Native aiiairs. Secondly, the other extreme, —that wo accept the whole responsibility, and throw ourselves on the generosity of the Imperial Government for assistance ; and the third was, the position in which they would place themselves in agreeing to the resolution of the lion. Colonial Secretary now before the House, a position which had very properly been characterised as undefined and nndefinable. As Ministers declared that what was an Imperial question could not at all times he defined, ho would object to accepting the third position. If it could not be defined what were Imperial questions, where was the line of demarcation to be drawn. He objected to being led blindfolded into an indefinite responsibility, lie would object more to an indefinite responsibility than to a largo defined one. The Colony was not in its relations one wlut more responsible by the Acts of 1818 than it was by the Acts of 1856. His main objection to the resolution was that it was shadowy and undefined. It seemed to aim at merely putting olf the evil day. Their responsibility under it would be £50,000, but another Governor or another Ministry might make it what they liked. Supposing they accepted the oilier alternative—that they take all the responsibility —all would admit that in the time of need Britain would come to their assistance, but it often had to be in the last hour of their need (hear, hoar.) lie had no wish to be in the position of the Taranaki settlers before the British Government would come to his relief (hear, hear.) That they were trustees for the natives he denied, but they were bound to certain duties—they were bound to work upon them as brothers, and to raise them from the state of degradation they were m (hear, hear.) The whole responsibility rested not with them. What was the treaty of Waitangi? Was the British Government the only high contracting party ? It was a treaty between the Queen and the chiefs of Now Zealand—at least such of them as signed it (hear, hear,) the Queen assuming the sovereignty and responsibility ,- and the Queen had not the power to hand over that responsibility to the Queen of Spain or to the colonists, without the assent of the other high contracting party (hear, hear.) She must fulfil her own obligations. It was not the theories of the lion, member for Ellesmere that they had to deal with, hut with realities. They had not been placed in the position of trustees, and they should not ask to be. It would not ho honest for the British Government to do it, and he did not believe they ever would (hear, hear.) When Britain has fulfilled her duties to those natives, which she was bound to do by her treaty, which she could not get rid off, they might undertake the trust. The position of trustees was one which the British Crown had a right to take upon itself. The colonists had not accepted this trusteeship of the native race, and let ns not ask it. lie believed they should disclaim entirely this responsibility, but give their utmost towards the civilization of the Maorics, and give it to His Excellency unconditionally—without condition they should give it, and not say, that is your policy, or it is a good one, wo will give yon the means of carrying it out. If they made Ministers responsible, and Ministers did wrong, then the House would be blameablc for that wrong. Bather let them leave the policy entirely to the Governor, giving him the money, and asking no questions, acknowledging the system as the system ’of the Home Government. Let ns throw no obstacles in the way of the successful working of Sir George Grey’s policy—any policy would be successful in the hands of such a man—and he should have whom he pleased to help—the present) Ministry would willingly assist him, if they believed in the soundness of his policy, as (hey declared they did. They did not wish to bind Ministers—they may give advice if consulted, but not responsible advice. Wo will not say there is our money, and do what yon like with it. There were lions in every path, but he could not sec any in the course ho proposed —leave the Ministry to manage European aiiairs, and leave the management of native aiiairs entirely to His Excellency (hear, hear.) Supposing His Excellency were to declare the Provinces of Hawke’s Bay and Wcllington'nativc Provinces, if it interfered with the constitutional rights of Europeans, the Ministers would come down to the House, and would represent that it was an infringement of the Constitution,'and (they' would bo backed by the House. The Colony would stand up for the Ministers, so long as the Ministers would stand up for the rights of the Constitution

(hear, hear.) They were not repudiating responsibility, they merely refused taking a greater amount of responsibility than they could bear (hear, hear.) Now was the time for this House and for the Colony to bear in mind—now was the tirre to maintain New Zealand as a single Colony —to save it from being severed. The interests of the Europeans and the Southern Provinces had been neglected, -whilst we have been in search of doctors for the Maorics. He hoped the cry which had been heard in the distance would not grow so loud as to divide the Colony. Let the Colonists look to it, now was the time or not at all (hear.) Mr. BELL deeply regretted the absence from among them of one whose high intellect and groat mind would have been a great assistance at this time. No one who heard Mr. Richmond announce his policy in 1858 could have failed to be surprised that they should be found desirous to retrace their steps. It was vain to say that the circumstances of the Colony were altered—that Hie doctrines then approved were no longer applicable. Ho -would admit that the circumstances were very much changed from intestine commotions within themselves. The principles enunciated in 1858 were very different from the principles he had the—misfortune he was going to say—to hear that evening. It was true that peace then reigned, and war had since raised an ill fooling ; nevertheless it was idle to say circumstances hud so changed as to render necessary a departure from the principles of the acts of 1858. It could never be said that any change could relieve them of the responsibility given them by the British Parliament when they' gave them their Constitution. The word “trustee” had been used—it was perfectly undeniable that when the Constitution was given them they received the right to make laws for all Her Majesty’s subjects in New Zealand. But ho thought they were altogether going away from the proper consideration of the matter which had been laid before them by the Government. The House was frightening itself by a bugbear, which really bad no existence except in the imagination of some bon. members. Professing to have some knowledge of native affairs, he felt very strongly on this question. It was in contemplation of difficulties arising when Sir George Grey would arrrive that lie laid before the General -Assembly the resolutions of 18G1, upon which Minister’s up to his time had acted. Ho could not conceive how any one, —and more particularly any one placed in the position of Native Ministers, —could not sec the necessity of coming to some conclusion for its abolition. When lie said ho spoke with no evil disposition, the lion, member (Mr. Weld) would believe him. Ho said there never could bo bettor men at the head of the Native Office. Mr. M’Lcan, Mr. Smith, and Mr. Hogan, were three as good men as could anywhere be found for certain duties, but when it was proposed that (lie native affairs should be transferred to the colonists, they could not understand the feeling which demanded this change. The plan of the Native office was to do nothing, propose nothing, and let matters take their own course. The moment that the Governor arrived he found the resolutions of 18G1 enabled him to issue his orders witli a certainty that his directions would be carried out by his Ministry with the readiness they sometimes required. If they now wanted the Governor to take back the old Native office (no, no ; hear, hoar) he was quite sure none of those gentlemen he mentioned would enter it. He saw no reason why they should revert to an irresponsible native department—that status quo ante which was driven back last session. Having passed the resolution last session, and induced His Excellency to act upon it, how could they now ask him to set on one side the policy it advised. Mr. Bell concluded by reminding the House that whatever conclusion (hey arrived at, the country would look to them to keep before his eyes his duty to Taranaki (hear. Mr. RICHARDSON said, if this resolution was carried, they would put it out of their power to control Sir George Grey' in any way, and the foulest blot on the escutcheon of England—the present position of the Taranaki settlers—would remain uneffaced they could not say how much longer (hear, hear). They were tcld, with that morbid sentimentality and sympathy for the natives, that it would bo hotter that their fellowsubiccts should be left to their sufferings. They were told to wait until plans—which really were not in existence —should be tried. They were going“vcry far from the subject in this discussion, lie could not understand the resolution. In dealing with it, a very important thing was required —and that was, to know what were Imperial matters ; he could not, for the life of him make out what were imperial matters. 'Where the power rested to iuflict punishment or confer favors there rested the responsibility. It was utterly impossible in his House to venture upon legislation for the Maorics. Reference was made to the treaty of Waitangi. He believed that that was the veriest sham that had ever been imposed by a civilized upon an uncivilved people. The Waitangi Treaty was the leaven which leavened the whole lump, the bitter fruits of which both the colonists and Maorics were now tasting. Ho read an extract from the Royal Instructions to show that His Excellency could keep from his Ministers any information which he thought might prejudice the public service. If that was the case, there might be the responsibility, but there would not be the power. Ho would give the fullest powers to the Governor, and the largest funds to cany out his plans for the better government of the Natives, but he would not assume any of the responsibility. Mr. ATKINSON thanked the hon. member for Wallace and the lust speaker for their Sj, jiipathy. He could not vote for the resolution, but he did not wish to turn out the present Mimistry, particularly on this question. They were the symbols of peace in the eyes of the world, though he did not think they were any more a peaceparty than those who occupied it before them, and he wished the present plan to have a fair trial. The Taranaki members recently applied for an interview with His Excellency, because they felt disapointed at the Province not being mentioned in the opening speech, when His Excellency told them it must not be a precedent, that he must in future refer them to His Ministers. His Excellency told them, that the settlement "of the Taranaki

question depended on his Ministry aud 4 tho House. If the Taranaki question was not an Imperial question (one of those which the Governor was to take upon himself) he did not know what was. Mr. J. C. RICHMOND spoke at great length, but in a low voice. He did not think the resolution should he met by a direct negative, and if no one else would, he would propose an amendment, but with no intention of turning out the Ministry, or with any desire to occupy one of their seats. The debate was adjourned, at 11 o’clock. Monday, July 28, 1862. We (New Zealand Advertiser) cannot find room for even a brief sketch of the speeches made in the House for and against the Ministerial proposition ; the following is only a bare outline. The adjourned debate was opened by the Post-master-General. He defined the course taken by Ministers, and said that the relations existing between them and the Governor were such as the resolution passed by the House last session indicated and justified. The resolution now before the House met each of the extreme parties—those who said there should be full Ministerial Responsibility, and those who said there should be none—half-way. He concluded his speech in picturing the disagi’eeable results which would follow if the resolution was rejected and if the irresponsible relations which formerly existed between the Governor and his advisors on native policy were to be again revived. Mr. STAFFORD recognised to the fullest extent the complicated question with which they' had to deal, and he did not consider that it was a time to criticise this or that native policy. It was not what was to be done, or how, but who was to do it P The hon. gentleman referred to remarks that had been made with reference to himself and and his colleagues when they held office, and indignantly repudiated the charges brought against them. With regard to the resolution before the House, it was one capable of being twisted to suit any purpose, and, while recommending a movement, it did not indicate which way to go. It had much surprised him that no hon. member had said anything of the resolution but Ministers, while it had been freely' criticised and condemned on the opposite side of the House. He commented at considerable length upon the Colonial Secretary’s definition of Imperial and Colonial questions. No principle would have his support which would rid the Governor of accountability to that House. The hon. gentleman, at considerable length, commented severely upon the conduct of Ministers, the native policy, and the present position of Sir George Grey. He concluded an able and eloquent speech by reiterating his dissent from the terms of the resolution before the House. Dr. FEATHER-STONE then addressed the House at some length, and with great ability. If file ministerial resolution was not earned they ought to resign their scats, though he, for one, regretted that his hon. friend had so readily fallen into the trap so cleverly set for him by the hou. member for Cheviot (Mr. Weld.) In attempting to define the relations between the Governor anti his Ministers in native affairs, ho had attempted an imposalbility. No such task had ever been attempted by any Ministry before, here, or in England. The resposibiiity' of Ministers in the mother country was not sanctioned by law, but was the result of a tacit understanding between the Crown and Parliament. If the relations there bad been left undefined, there was a greater reason why they should be so in a colony—the Crown being responsible to no one, but a colonial Governor being responsible to the Imperial authorities. The difficulty to define those relations was still greater in a colony inhabited by a native race just emerging from barbarism; and lienee lie regretted that, at the invitation of the member for Cheviot. Air. Fox should have attempted so childish, so utter an absurdity. In 1856 he (Dr. F.) had maintained that, while native affairs were withdrawn from the administration of responsible ministers, responsible government was a sham and delusion. He had maintained, that it would he sheer madness to entrust native affairs to a Governor who, just arriving in the country, must be ignorant of the whole subject; and if native affairs were withdrawn from the consideration of the House, there was no necessity for Ministers to make themselves conversant with them ; and how under this system, native affairs had been mismanaged and native interests neglected, they had the testimony of the late Governor and his Ministers. After praising Archdeacon Hadficld, for recommending native affairs to be placed under the administration of responsible advisers—painting in Claude Colours the state of the natives when Sir George Grey left the colony, and in colours as black as midnight their state on his return again to the colony—lie appealed to the sense of generosity and of justice of members not to abandon Sir George Grey, who had sacrificed so much for the colony, but to give him the assistance of responsible ministers to conduct native affairs. Mr. GRACE OFT WILSON had been struck dumb by the eloquent declamation of the last speaker, which he thought contained three fallacies. The first-was in supposing that Sir George Grey needed advice; the second was, that if they rejected the resolution he would he prohibited from asking it: and the third was in supposing the Maorics to bo British subjects. He thought that the highest compliment they could pay His Excelency was to ask him to take all power relative to native affairs into his own hands. He said his constituents were grieved to the heart’s core when they thought of the state their fellow-settlers in Taranaki were in, and they were convinced that one man, with undivided power and responsibility, was what was required to remedy the mischief they deplored. They wished the Governor to exorcise his unfettered discretion on Maori questions, and to see in His Excellency,s speech, in opening the next session, the words—“Taranaki avenged and restored.” If those words were in (henext speech with which His .Excellency favoured the House, bis constituents would be perfectly satisfied. Mr. CARLETON said, there were throe parties in the House, and that the division on the resolution would not be a faithful representation of the views of those parties. After giving the history of the movement to secure responsible government by the House, he expressed his conviction, that if

the policy of the Stafford Ministry of 1858 had been allowed to run its natural course—if the Act which was the keystone of the arch had not been disallowed—the unhappy wai’, and the unhappy divisions amongst themselves, would have been obviated. The remedy which Mr. Fitzgerald suggested—“stopping the supplies”—was one which responsible government was supposed to render unnecessary; and it was a remedy that could not be applied, for it had been found, in practice, that they could not succeed in stopping the supplies in a paltry Provincial council. The remedy, moreover, would be worse than the disease. He objected to the partnership implied in the resolution, unless provision were made for its eventual dissolution. He objected to the resolution, also because the medium course it suggested implied a divided responsibility. He would waive these objections to give Ministers an opportunity of putting themselves rigid, having gone wrong owing to no fault of their own. Mr. DOMETT ridiculed the idea of the Home Government permitting the House to take the whole management of native affairs into its own hands. He did not so much object to the resolution itself, as to the arguments that had been used in favour of it. Mr. WATT would be equally sorry to see the resolution carried, and to see the Ministry defeated upon it, and would, were he not so yomm a member to get over the difficulty, move the pre° vious question. He said the Ministry was not the same Ministry that was in office at the close of the last session, and he thought some information should have been vouchsafed why Mr. Mantel], whose vote had put the Ministry in office, had resigned. The debate was resumed at 7 o’clock. Mr. CARTER labored under great difficulty when he considered the eloquent manner in which the subject beiore the House had been spoken to by various hon. members ; but representing, as he did, a constituency interested in the matter, he could not consent to give a silent vote. He referred to some remarks which had fallen from the hon. Member for Timaru, (Mr. Jollie) to the effect that individual Europeans who went to reside amongst the natives, did so at their own peril, and that he (Mr. Joi.lie) had no sympathy with them. As regarded the resolution, he would,*for his own part, like to have seen something more definite, and he thought that Ministers should have given some clearer exposition as to military affairs in the Colony. He believed that the money question had a great deal to do with the resolution ; more, in fact, than hon. members admitted. In the event of this resolution not being passed, he considered that the colony would be placed in a very awkward position. There were in that House three different parties, each recommending different courses. He made allusion to the time when the members of that House clamored for ministerial responsibility, and to the indignation with which the information was received by them when a Bill was introduced into the House of Commons taking from the Colony all responsibility in A alive affairs. He reverted to the time when they had an irresponsible Government, and when the funds of the Active Department were expended in a wasteful and extravagant manner. He had heard members from the south say that they were willing to vote large sums of money, but without ministerial responsibility. This would be saying to the Governor, in effect, “We expect you to do all the work yourself.” If that House now neglected to bring into subjection the native race, they would lose a grand opportunity, such a one as might never occur again. The natives were just regaining confidence and if a resolution of the Ministry in whom they had that confidence was rejected, what would they think ? The hon. gentleman concluded his speech by expressing his intention to support the resolution. Mr. CURTIS moved the previous question, which was seconded by Major RICHMOND. Mr. J. WILLIAMSON rose and delivered an able and logical speech in support of the motion. He said he had patiently waited for some hon. member to propose an amendment, but nothing of the sort had been done. He freely criticised the speech of Mr. Stafford, and also the conduct of that gentleman upon previous occasions. He referred to the opinion held in England about the New Zealand war. He believed that the natives were gaining confidence, and he thought it would bo a great calamity if Ministers were removed at present. He had officially visited Coromandel in company with die Colonial Secretary, and he noticed with satisfaction the great deference paid to that gentleman by the natives. A portion of the press had made statements to the contrary, but ho could boar testimony to the fact. The natives at Coromandel had asked for gunpowder and firearms in exchange for their lands, but Mx\ Eox had sternly refused this. When Governor Grey arrived at Auckland, he thought ho had come to work with men elected by the people of New Zealand, and when ho took into counsel the men whom he found in power, he became aware that their views coincided with his own. Considering the circumstances under which Sir George Grey came here, -would it be right to say “Here is the money, do the work yourself?” Would the Governor thank them for that? If ho (Mr. Williamson) was the Governor he would not. Mr. EITZHERBERT said, that the question was one which could not be passed over with a silent vote. He thought that his hon. friend (Mr. F.) had committed a blunder in bringing this question before the House, at the invitation of the hon. member for Cheviot, in matter more remarkable for its ingeniousness than its truth, the result of which would be useless for any legislative purpose, though the subject would have done well enough for a debating club. When the House flared up at the very idea of legislative interference by the Imperial Parliament, the hon. member the leader of the Opposition drew up a scries of resolutions which received the common support to combat the common enemy —Imperial legislation. The joint resolutions of both Houses, passed in 1860, set forth that the Native Secretary should be a member of a responsible ministry. What had been done in the meantime to produce this change of opinion? What alteration has taken place in the circumstances.of the colony to produce this change of opinion ? The sum of £IO,OOO

was voted in 1857, but with the proviso that that sum was to be spent by the Governor in Council while to-day they desire to hand over the colony’ and the whole native race, to a Governor-dictator! lx it was expected that the lion, members opposite expected to secure the confidence of the House without an explanation of. this inconsistency,"thev would be greatly mistakcu. The resolution unanimously passed last session’ was? identical in spmt, and almost identical in language, with that now before the House. The motives of the human mind in opposition were so multifarious that it was difficult to arrive at a right conclusion as to the cause of this change. It was a difficult problem. A peace Governor was sent out the late Ministry were turned Out, and it was necessary to'devise some machincryhy which a peace Governor could w'Ork with a war ministry, and it wa s accordingly resolved to have no responsibility at all. If this was not the riggt solution of the problem, it rested with the hon. members opposite to solve it. There were three elements in the compound question now before the House. There is the Colonist element, the Aboriginal element, and the Imperial element. With regard to the Colonist view of the subject.he took the view of the Canterbury Press; with regard to the Imperial there was a good deal of the £ s. d. in its aspect’ which was somewhat repulsive. John Bull is supposed to be a very stolid individual but he is extremely averse to he “jewed,” and in this way they would view this repudiation of responsible government. With regard (o the Native aspect, Sir George Grey wanted not so much their money as their cordial cooperation. Though he mhdit have suspended the Constitution ; ho bad only to lift up his little finger, and this would have been granted him. It was a systam of irresponsibility which had caused the Taranaki war, which was itself a very strong case in support’ of the resolution. A legislative assembly never voluntarily denuded itself of power, and if this were to do so it would be an epoch in history. Mr. Fitzherbert spoke a' great length, and his speech produced some applause and provoked much laughter, but the above is its substance, without the "loss with which he artistically adorned it. ° Mr. WELD referred' to the speeches of Dr. Feathcrston and Mr. Fitzhcrbert, which amounted to nothing more than the desire to have the control over a department, not of a policy. The Government had put themselves in a liumiliatin" position. An lion, member said—No ; be could not say what was humiliating to him. He did not value consistency above any other virtue, nor would lie allude it o the numerous inconsistencies of which Dr. Fcathevston had been guilty. There was something higher than consistency that ho valued, and that >as truth. They had no- real power in native matters, and ho would not'’fake the responsibility, until ho had the power and could pay the cxpence. Ho severely criticised the speeches of the two members above mentioned and in doing so put life into a sleepy House. Mr. GRAHAM said that, he represented an important constituency not quite so largo as that of Ain. Gillies, but had the iloaling population that gentleman represented might bo at Coromandel, and therefore lie had a right to bo beard. If they refused to aid Sir George Grey, they would be shirking their duty. He had travelled through the disaffected part of the cmmtry and if the native policy was carried on successfully ho believed that the natives would soon he qualified to have seats in the House. He should vote for the resolution. Mr. FOX commenced his reply at half-past eleven. After some preliminary remarks, he said, —To Mr. Fenton, not to Mr. Richmond, was due the two great principles which lay at the basis of a sound policy in native affairs. '.Sir George Grey believed, that the true art of governing the natives was by treating the natives with justice. First principles were like a naked skeleton, the statesman must look at the living body. It was said the resolution was hazy, and so was sometimes the moon, and sometimes the man who looked at it. Sir George Grey had never taken a step without consulting his ministers. The whole amount of presents bestowed upon all the natives in 16 years had amounted to little more than £20,000. They had corrupted the Maorics by giving them 6d. a year, and therefore we ought not to have ministerial responsibility in native affairs. This, said hon. member, was the logical deduction! The Governor was better able to work out the native problem by the aid of his responsible ministers than ho could do single handed. It would take ten Sir George Grey’s. In reply to Mr. Carlcton he said there was no other ministerial memorandums than those before the House. He was not aware that Sir George Grey had scut homo any despatches that he had not shewn his Ministers. The memorandum written by him (Mr. Fox) with reference to the undesirability of suspending the constitution, was written at Sir Georgo Grey’s request. The speech occupied an hour, when the question was put, and the House divided, ayes 22, nocs, 22. The SPEAKER gave is casting vote with the noes, which put the Ministry in a minority, and “ shelved ” the resolution. The following is the division list: — Ayes (22). Noes (22). Bell, Dillon Atkinson Brandon Butler Carter Colcnso Ryes Curtis Feathcrston Dick Fox Gillies Fitzhcrbert Jollio Fitz Gerald Mason Graham G. Moorhonso Graham R. Mantell Harrison Nixon Henderson O’Neill Monro, J. Richmond, A. J. O’Rorko Richmond, J. 0. Renall Russell Rhodes Stafford Saunders Wilson ’ Taylor, C. Williamson, James Taylor. W. W. Weld Williamson, John Wells Wood, Reader Watt Ward, (teller) Richardson (teller) Mr, Carleton (aye) paired with Mr. Domett (no)