HOUSE OF LORDS.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume I, Issue 19, 7 November 1861, Page 5 (Supplement)

HOUSE OF LORDS.

THE NEW ZEALAND DIFFICULTY. Lord Lyveden (July 26) rose to nsk the Secretary of State for the Colonies to state to the House vwiat instructions lie had given to Sir George Grey

respecting the settlement of the tribal rights of the Natives and the payment of the expenses of (he war in New Zealand. Ho referred to the opinion which had been expressed by a noble carl on a former occasion, that the only solution of the New Zealand question was the recall of the governor and the suspension of the constitution. The noble duke had, however, anticipated the former step, while he very wisely declined to adopt the extreme measure of suspending the constitution. The recall of the governor whenever anything went wrong in the colony was a somewhat inconvenient measure. It was quite true, however, that Governor Browne’s term of office was nearly expired. It should bo borne in mind that Sir George Grey would not return to the colony under the same favorable circumstances as when he quitted it. Tie left it in a period of prosperity, and would return to it at a time of convulsion and misfortune. lie leit it with great popularity'; but his return at the present crisis would bo apt to be misconstrued by, and to excite the suspicion of, both natives and colonists. They heard again of war breaking out, but whether there was war or peace, some dellnite arrangement ought to bo made with the colonists and the natives upon two great questions—viz., (he tribal rights of the natives and the expense of the military operations. All the convulsions in New Zealand had turned upon the question of tribal rights, and he did not think it was ns difficult as was imagined for the nobie Duke to define (he tribal and individual rights of the natives, wliich should be respected in the sale and purchase of lands ; but whether the noble duke could do so or not, it would be far better to acknowledge altogether the tribal rights of natives than to have these perpetuated convulsions upon a question of so difficult and delicate a nature. The other and more important question was the defence of the colonies, and that was a question which must be considered. Responsible government being laid down as the doctrine upon which the colonics were to be governed, they must abide by it in the small colonics, because they must abide by it in the largo colonies, and they must abide by it in (ho large colonies because they would lose them if they' did not. It was important, however, to know whether, responsible government being the rule, the mother country was to pay for the defence of the colonies. IVe were fortifying our own coast, and the people were preparing for what ho trusted would be an imaginary invasion. It was said that the spirit of modern warfare was to strike at the heart of the empire ; but might not the limbs be attacked ? And if they 7 were attacked, some definite rule should be laid down upon which they might claim assistance, pff such a rule was necessary 7 with regard to foreign invasion, it was much more necessary 7 with regard to internal convulsions. In Australia the AngloSaxon race had swept away the native tribes ; but in New Zealand the natives were active and ambitious, and quite capable of offering strong resistance to what they conceived to be injustice. The settlers who went out were men who looked to acquire land. The only property of the natives was land, and their pride in its possession led to collisions with the settlers. As long as the mother country paid there would be no peace. According to the report of the colonial military expenses committee, the cost of New Zealand was'LlO t,SG2. Next year the cost would be double, and it would be treble and quadruple unless the mother country came to the resolution that the colonists should defend themselves. The line beyond which no assistance would be given must be laid down, and it only owing to the unwillingness of the Ministry 7 to face the difficulty that it had not been laid down before. lie thought it important, before Parliament separated, to call attention to the subject, and he hoped the noble duke would state in reply whether any rule had been laid down as (o the tribal rights, and whether Sir George Greyhad been instructed that beyond a certain amount the homo Government would not be responsible for the cost of suppressing internal commotions in the colony 7 . In what he had said ho did not wish to disparage Sir G. Grey, for whom he felt great admiration. Sir G. Grey was originally 7 appointed by Lord John Russell in ISII, solely upon his merits, in consequence of an able book which ho had written, lie had been promoted by each successive Secretary 7 for the Colonics, and he had received the approbation of every Minister under whom ho had served. lie believed that unless such instructions as he had indicated had been given to Sir G. Grey, they would be hearing constantly of commotions in a colony which should of all others be happy, healthy, and prosperous.— (Hear, hear.)

The Duke of Newcastle hoped that the consequences of sending Sir Gf. Grey to Xcw Zealand would not be what the noble lord anticipated. He did not believe that it could have the effect on the native population which the noble lord seemed to dread, and he was quite convinced it would not have the effect on the European settlers which the noble lord seemed to expect. Why should the natives apprehend that Sir G. Grey was about, to reverse the policy of his predecessor, when the Government which had appointed Sir G. Grey had expressed their opinion in favor of the Government of Col. Browne P And why should the English settlers dread that their interests would be

neglected when they had nothing to complain of Six- G. Grey’s former government in that respect ? Sir G. Grey was sent oxxt as the most likely man to restore confidence to the settlers and to' the natives, and to adopt such a policy as would prevent the recurrence of wax-. (Hear.) ITis noble friend wished to know what instructions were given to Sir G. Grey in reference to the ti’ibal rights of the natives, and thought it easy for a Secrctai’y of State sitting in Downing stx’eet to lay down distinct rules as to those rights, so as to guide the Governor in the exercise of his duties. He coxdd only say that, whatever facilities the noble loi'd might feel for such an operation, he could not profess to have them. When he saw eminent legal men in the colony, like Sir W. Martin and chief Justico Arncy, differing in foto upon that question he felt that he should be acting most unwisely, and doing anything but furthering the policy of the Government, if ho endeavored to settle difficult questions of law in England. These matters must be left to the judgment of men upon the spot, and all that the Colonial Secretary could do was to select best instrument* in his power for the purpose. These tribal rights were not the same in all parts

/of New Zealand, and the natives themselves did ; not agree as to their extent. When, therefore, the noble lord said it would be better to concede the /whole, he forgot that by concession to one party .■they would bo depriving another of privileges and : advantages which they possessed. (Hear.') The whole question of tribal rights was most delicate, intricaio, and difficult, and it should be recollected that Sir George Grey expressed an opinion expressed by others before him, that it was most desirable some tribunal should be constituted on the spot which should decide upon them. He had stated before, and he repeated now', that the great . obstacle to the constitution of such a tribunal had always been the opposition of the natives. There .was a greater tendency now r , perhaps, among the natives to accept such a tribunal ; but, at the same time, it was doubtful w'hether the natives would greatly benefit by such an arrangement, because the power of the Crown, reservedly the constitution, had always been exorcised in their favor, and bound to give its decisions according to dry law would not make that convenient concession to the prejudice of the Crown which the Crown itself had been in the habit of doing. The noble lord asked what instructions had been given to Sir George Grey. lie had sent instructions to him on the sth of June, and again on the 26th of the same month, on these questions, but more esjiecially bearing on the Native Council Bill, which was passed by the local legislature, and had not received the Crown’s sanction. His noble friend would see that in the peculiar position in which Sir G. Grey was placed it was most desirable that he should not give lull details of those instructions. ■ (Hear, bear.) \\ hen Sir G. Grey was appointed on the sth ot June he was at the Cape of Good Hope. He received instructions to proceed to New Zealand w'ith the greatest possible despatch, and would, no doubt, leave the Cape and proceed to New' Zealand as quickly as possible. If he were now to state w'bat were the instructions which he had sent out to Sir George Grey, the report of this statement would reach New' Zealand before Sir George Grey, and that would obviously bo placing him in a very unfair position.—(Hear, hear.) At the same time, he did not disguise the fact that, though he had given Sir G. Gi ey general instructions, lie had not given him any specific instructions. He had expressed opinions, but subject entirely to Sir George Grey’s discretion in the application of them. In appointing a man like Sir G. Grey it was not fair to him to hamper him with definite instructions, seeing that the circumstances under which they were given might have changed entirely before the time came to put them into action. Ho had, therefore, left a larger discretion to Sir G. Grey than he should have left to any other Governor under different circumstances. As to the expenses of the war, he had said, previous to its breaking out, that he bad borne to an arrangement with the legislature that the colony of New Zealand should pay £5 j> head for every soldier retained by the Imperial Govemyincnt in the colony, and that the colony should also pay the expenses of the Militia and Volunteer force. They had also borrowed money from the commissariat chest without any arrangement for repayment, and he had told the Governor that all payment for the loeal forces must be defrayed by the Colon}' itself, and if money were advanced for the war, it must be under a guarantee that it would bo repaid. He had received a despatch from the colony, stating that that arrangement had been agreed to. He could not disguise from the bouse liis belief that tlie expenses of a war conducted as tliis has been must be paid for in a largo proportion by the mother country ; but ho had every reason to believe that the expenses of this w’ar would be borne in a larger proportion by the colony than had been the case in any previous war of the kind. He could not agree with his noble iriend that it would be possible for the Secretary of State to lay down some definite rule as to the proportion of military expenditure which should be borne by the colonies in time of peace. The circumstances of the colonies differed very much, some required a larger military expenditure, others a smaller. Some were rich, and others comparatively poor, and there was this further difficulty! that having given self-government to most ot our colonies, the arrangements would have to made in conjunction with the Legislatures. The only way in which any definite rule could bo laid down w'ould be by saying to a colony, “You must cither pay for these troops or wo will withdraw' them,” and he bad not made up bis mind that such a course would be prudent or advisable with regard to our great colonies. He bad not seen the report of the committee of the House of Commons, but, considering the difficulty of laying down any definite rule, ho was not surprised to hear that they had left the matter very much w'here the had found it. He did not mean to say that a considerabl reductions might not be made in our colonial military expenditure, but if our colonial empire was worth preserving we must not act rashly nor w ithout full consideration of the local circumstances of each colony.