INDIVIDUALIZATION OF NATIVE TITLE IN HAWKE’S BAY.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume I, Issue 12, 19 September 1861, Page 5 (Supplement)

INDIVIDUALIZATION OF NATIVE TITLE IN HAWKE’S BAY.

Friday, August 16,

Mr. Ormond resuming Iris speech on the introduction of his motion, said he would briefly refer to the chief points be had touched upon yesterday. He had then said that certain members had objected to tire name of Renata being introduced, on the ground that it was undesirable to countenance a person who had written such letters as these arc, that had been so much talked of as proceeding from him. His own (Mr. O.’s) opinion was that the letter would have been better left alone, but he did not think a severe censure should be passed upon it, for what might be reasonable from an educated Englishman was a very different thing from a Native like Renata, who had besides always been a great friend to the Europeans, and prevented things getting so bad in Hawke’s Bay as they might have done. He had heard, since he had been in Auckland, various allusions to the authorship of that letter known as Renata’s, and he would take this opportunity of explaining its real nature to the House. That letter was in reply to a speech of the late Superintendent of Hawke’s Bay, made at the Natives’ own place, which was answered by the Natives present. But some time afterwards these speeches were published in the papers, and the Natives said (and also confirmed by some competent Europeans) that the Superintendent’s speech as printed and delivered were two very different things, so they determined to answer it again, and the mode in which they did it was somewhat amusing. They called a meeting in their pahs, and elected one among their number to represent tbe Superintendent, and this elected member read three or four sentences of the Superintendent’s speech as printed, which were then replied to by speakers in the meeting. They then compiled the best points of reply into a letter, which was published in (he name of Renata, but was in reality the collective wisdom of the whole tribe. The next point to which he (Mr. Ormond) had referred on Thursday was, that ho wished to hear from the Government a statement of how they would advise the Governor as to. the system under which individualisation of title was to be attempted to be carried out. This was as important as the attempt itself; he thought it would have to bo done by a Native Court assisted by European officers, and unless the Natives were made agents in the business the attempt would be unsuccessful. He had also before stated the circumstances under which the proposal originated, —that'there had been a feeling of hostility gradually gaining ground before this proposal was made,

originating from the trespass of cattle and tlio refusal of Europeans to compensate the Natives, vvlio then thinking, with some appearance of justice, that they were hardly dealt with, threw obstruct ions in every way to the progress of roads and ferries that passed through their lands which lay immediately round Napier. The Provincial Council, earnestly wishing to put an end to this state of things, asked the chiefs to meet them. They did so ; and after some days of meeting in the Council and out of it, they got the Natives to agree to the proposal contained in the letters on table of the House ; but they had always told the Natives that they (the Council) had no power to deal with the matter, further than to make recommendations to the General Government. The Council also went further, and assured the Natives that both parties in “the great Runuuga,” as the House was called, were agreed that the individualisation of Native land title was the main step to be taken to remove the present difficulties. Another reason why the Government should take steps in this matter was, that the town of Napier was almost surrounded by about 100,000 acres of land still in Native possession, and it was essential to the progress of the Province that this should be beneficially occupied, the only way to do which was by giving the Natives themselves' the power of allowing their beneficial occupation, which was at present prevented by the Native Land Purchase Ordinance, and wdiich it was the wish of both European settlers and the Natives themselves should be allowed. These Natives who had expressed this desire had long belonged both to the King movement and the anti-land-selling-league, but they had lately declared to the. Waikatoes that if they got their Crown titles they should withdraw from the movement. This should be a great reason for the course he suggested the Government should undertake, and he hoped they would agree to it. Mr. Colknso said he regretted to see so small an attendance of members for this was a most important question, and one that touched not merely the welfare of Hawke’s Bay, but of all New Zealand, particularly the Northern Island. With the permission of the House he would enter into a little detail respecting the motion, but first he would refer to what had been said about Eenata’s letter, which it was well knowni was a compilation, and not of natives alone, for Europeans also had their hands in it. There had been two letters from the late Superintendent of Haw'ke’s Bay to the Natives, —one preparatory to his instituting prosecutions under the Land Purchase Ordinance, a long and able letter, in which was pointed out to the Natives the absolute necessity of individualizing their titles before they could be placed on the same platform with Europeans. That letter was soon after followed up by another. He (Mr. Colenso) had been Provincial Interpreter at the time, and had attended the Superintendent in that capacity at the meeting at the Pa Whakaaivo. Talking there did not commence till rather late, and when the Superintendent was called" on to express his opinions, after making one speech he reasonably said he wished to hear all the other speeches before lie replied to them, hut the talking continuing till dark, he was unable to answer the speeches and did so summarily in his published account of the proceedings. As to any prejudice being entertained against receiving a letter from Renata, Renata had always been a friend to the Europeans, which perhaps resulted from his being taken from the Bay of Islands, where he was a slave in 18-14, by himself (Mr. O.) and returned to his own tribe. Renata, though mentioned as belonging to the Ngatikahungunu tribe, did not belong, and never had belonged, to that tribe, but to a tribe of Manawatu, from whence there had been several migrations in the last few years to Hawke’s Bay. Apart from a little bouncing in his letters and speeches, he (Mr. 0.) looked upon Renata as the staunchest friend of the Europeans at Hawke’s Bay, and a kind of equipoise against proceedings that might be thought of by other chiefs not so well acquainted with Europeans. With regard to the letter referred to in this motion, it was not a clear letter. lie looked upon it not as a request for the confirmation of individual rights, but of a tribal right. They desired the Government to confirm to them large portions of land under very peculiar circumstances. He considered that (he publication of the first letter of the Superintendent calling on them to individualize their titles, taken in connection with the excitement caused by the Taranaki war, which they considered as a kind of interference with the tribal right, of chiefs led to those proposals. The hon. member (Mr. Colenso) then entered into a detail of the history of the chiefs at Ahuriri since IS 13, from which it appeared that the present applicants Renata, Karaitiana, nndTaroha, sought to have granted to them land upon which a wellknown chief of high rank, named Te Hapuku, who had been obliged to fly into the interior, had a claim on behalf of certain children and grandchildren (apart from any claim of his or of his w ives) and who having leased land close to his own .pa, the first-named chiefs wrote a threatening letter to the Superintendent of Hawke’s Bav, saying they would not allow these lauds to he leased, and would kill any sheep put upon them by the person who had leased them from Te Hapuku. This led him to believe that what these chiefs wanted was not individual Crown grants, but a grant to their own tribe to the absolute exclusion of the claim of Te Hapuku, that they might have (he right of leasing it to Europeans. Now, this 100,000 acres that had peon referred to, was a large delta of rich alluvial plains, surrounded by Crown lands, and he believed that Nature never intended those rich plains to be occupied as grazing runs, a result which must follow if the Natives received tribal grants of these lands, with full powers of dealing with them as they pleased. Graziers should go for their runs to a distance from the town, and not within four or five miles of it. He cordially seconded the motion, (though ho might have appeared to be speaking against it.) and he appealed to the House to give its attention to the amelioration of the condition of certain classes of settlor’s in Hawke’s Bay ; in particular, those who lived in the immediate vicinity of native lands, and whose cattle w-ere continually straying over the boundaries, and drivers of drays who were continually molested by the Natives, because their bullocks fed from the rich plains in passing. He also requested the Government to shut their eves to the

infraction of the Land Purchase Ordinance by settlers who were scattered through the Province on broken Native lands, such as the Natives did not care to sell, and who were thus in a different position to those who leased rich and valuable lands of the Natives. It was, he thought ini possible for this House paying duo respect to the real meaning of the treaty of Waitangi to grant Crown titles to certain tribes us a standard by which to set up afterwards a tribal right, unless* it could be managed that all the chiefs interested in the locality- could come to an agreement amongst themselves. If the House could devise some plan by which the request of this resolution could be legitimately carried out, it would be a great benefit to Hawke’s Pay ; but there must be a proper local enquiry instituted to enable the Government to proceed on a sure footing. lie could second the motion. | Mr. On mono rose to explain. He had good authority for stating that the Natives’ intention i was not to procure a tribal title but to individualize jit to the different families. The member for NaIpier had rather led the House to believe that if jthis were confirmed ns a tribal title, it was with | this view of immediately being passed into the j hands of runholders, but the dist rict was essentiality an agricultural district and it was for the agricultural interest ot the Province he had made this ! motion. The lion, member had alluded to a Threatening letter having been sent to the Superintendent of Hawke’s Pay. The Speaker here interposed, as the hon. member was not making an explanation of anything of j which he had been misunderstood, but was making a reply. Mr. Colenso said he had not meant that it was a threatening letter as regards the Superintendent but as affecting the person whose flecks were on , the lands referred to. Whether it was an individual or a tribal title that was asked for would come out when a local inquiry was entered into. Mr. Fox said there was no need for the hon. : mover to have excused the use of Eenata’s name iu his motion on account of anything said or written by that native ; for if there was anything objectionable in Eenata’s letter, at all events he must have made a very considerable advance when he appealed to the constitutional tribunals of the country, — the Provincial Council and General Assembly—and the country might congratulate itself when it saw natives so doing. It was a remarkahie feature iu the native mind, that so little civilised as they were, they shoidd be prepared in a matter of such interest to themselves to take such a sagacious course. Though there were some passages in Eenata’s letter that would have been highly unbecoming in any one more educated, yet it was in his (Mr. Fox’s) mind one of the most talented letters he had ever met with in any controversy. .There was a force of reasoning in it and strokes of I wit such as were seldom found in such correspondIcnce, as the hit made at the Superintendent, who had quoted a passage of Scripture—“ Children obey your parents,”—-to which Renata replied by directing his attention to the remainder of the passage —“Parents, provoke not your children to wrath." It was full of little hits of that kind, and was altogether a most remarkable letter, exhibiting an extraordinary dcvelopement of mind and intellectual powers on the part of the writer. They had not ‘ to deal with a parcel of dawdling savages, but with men who had exhibited mental ability that would put to the blush many hon. members of this House. He thanked both the hon. members for Hawke’s Pay for the light they had thrown on this question. The course of the Government would be nearly that indicated by those hon. members. The Government was satisfied that there was no possibility of disposing of any question of ’ this kind, involving the relative rights of the parities concerned, except by the aid" of the Natives i themselves, who must be left to bring the question i to such a position that the Government would ; only have to stop in and take administrative action 1 They would he invited to bring the question into i this position by discussions and enquiries among | themselves. That accomplished, the Government , would stop in and individualise their title cither ' by tribes, hapus, or individuals. He believed : there were many eases in which, if the Governiment could succeed in carrying out tribal individualisation, subsequent subdivision to hapns and and individuals would be a matter of no great I difficulty. With regard to squatters endeavoring to take pcsossion of those lands at Hawke’s Pay, i no person could take any such step without infring--1 ing the law : and though the Government had acted with regard to that law (and perhaps found itself compelled to act) in a manner that justly laid it open to the charge of partiality, yet the occupation of large tracts close to the town, in defiance of the law, would not be allowed by the Goycrnnient to continue. For if they could not act on the old Ordinance the Government would always be able to come to this House and lay the case before it, and induce the House to legislate in such a way as to meet the entire case, and provide for partial occupation in districts where it ■would not ho attended with had consequences but be extremely beneficial, as in the Wairarapa, which, being first occupied on lease, the natives became anxious to receive instead of rents the substantial value of their laud. The Government would give their earnest attention to this subject, and would advise his Excellency to invite the natives in Hawke’s Pay to take such, proceedings in the matter as to bring it before the Government for the purpose of action being taken thereupon. Mr. Domett said the district was one with, which he was well acquainted, and he could confirm the desirability of getting these tracts settled. Both the mover and seconder had assumed that the settlers in-Hawke’s Pay had given up the idea of acquiring the fee simple of those lands, but he believed they might have been acquired years ago if the Land Purchase Department had taken proper moans before the land league acquired so great an influence there. From the description of tiicse plains it appeared highly desirable that (hey shoidd not fall into the hands of runholders. being the only part of the country where (ho agricultural interest could develop itself. in fact, without them Hawke's Pay would he no Province at all, but would have about ns much vitality as a man with his heart cut out. If this individualisation were carried out, it was incumbent on the Government to lav down some rule as to the mode in

which the Natives should deal with the land or part with it so that they should not unconsciously abuse it to the detriment of themselves and of the public. He did not see any object in this debate but to impress that on the Government, and he could give his hon. friend the Native Minister full credit for being sufficiently impressed with the necessity of that course. The present case offered an exceedingly favorable opportunity to the Government of commoncingthc work of individualising Native title ; Karaitiana being a very advantageous chief to deal with, and Te Hapuku, though now in the shade, must still have some influence, and would assist in attaining the object desired. Mr. Mantell said he was glad this discussion had taken place, though it was somewhat in anticipation of a more general discussion, which must sooner or later take place in this House, on the question of the adoption of such recommendations on this matter as the Government would be prepared to make to his Excellency. Ho regretted the unaccountable delay tnat had occurred in bringing this matter forward, which lie thought must have been caused by some official accident at Napier, where the latter was dated February G, 1861, but had only recently arrived. He regretted this much, as a disposition oi this sort on the part of the Natives should meet with the earliest possible attention, and not be allowed to slumber. He would dismiss briefly the resolution proposed by saying he concurred in it so far as he could make it out, but he could wish it had been general, and not limited to the tribes of Hawke’s Bay. The question it seemed to him was this : the' mover wished the government to take steps to individualise Native title. The Government always had endeavoured to take such steps, but only for one purpose. Native title had hitherto been roughly investigated so far as it suited the commissioners, but only with a view to its immediate extinguishment by the Crown. As a general rule that had been the practice, and it had not had the effect that could have been desired. He pleaded guilty to having been himself engaged in these investigations, and not having done it in a manner he could approve of. But now they had come toa position ot affairs (foreseen by him long ago) at which the Natives did not care to have their titles investigated for this object, but, beginning to see the value of their lands, desired individual possession. If the Natives were satisfied that their individual rights recognised by each other would be recognised by the Crown, they would be encouraged to adjust their mutual claims for the simplification of their title, whether with the object of retaining their lands or of selling them to the Crown—a question which he would rather drop for the present. With regard to the Province of Hawke’s Bay, he had it on the authority of the Chief Land Purchase Commissioner that no purchase could be made there, therefore any fear of the sanction of the arrangements referred to in this resolution by the Government was entirely dispelled. In confirmation of what had fallen from the hon. member for Nelson (Mr. Domett) he would state that it was his firm conviction that those plains might have been acquired for a fair payment nine or ton years ago, a view which the Natives of the place assented to, and which he had always held. The question had been raised that the Government ought, in individualising Native title, to fake care of what became of the land, and not allow agricultural land to be leased for sheep runs. He would not now go into the question whether or not any control sliould be exercised by the Government after the title had been individualised, but there was always this safeguard, that a man in the possession oi' any property would generally see the most useful and profitable employment of that property, and a Native who might possess some of these plains and could lease them as agricultural farms would be extremely unlikely to lease them as sheep runs. In conclusion, he would repeat that he did fully agree in the spirit of this resolution, and in agreeing with it ho simply expressed an agreement in policy adopted by himself and his colleagues when he took office. lie would bo happy to meet the hon. gentleman who brought this forward, and endeavour to open a communication with the Natives at Hawke’s Bay on this subject, that (hey might put themselves in the position that would lead as soon as possible to the result they aimed at ; so that when the Government had agreed to some fixed system for the whole country, the earliest attention should be given to those who earliest placed themselves in the position to come within the terms of that system, whatever it might be. Mr. M eld said he wished to make a few observations on what had fallen from the Native Minister, who had (perhaps inadvertently) rather appeared to infer that the object and desire to individualise Native title had never been entertained by the Government hitherto (no, no) ; except with a view to immediate purchase by the Crown. Mr. Mantlet, explained that he did not wish to convey any imputation of that kind. Ho was perfectly aware ot the desire of his predecessors in this matter, but ho had only spoken with regard to the Executive portion of Government, to action taken by the Government in those matters in the shape of Land Purchase Commissioners, and so forth, but lie made no imputation of neglect to his predecessors. Mr. VV eld went on to say that he and his colleagues had always agreed in the view# laid down by the hon. gentleman opposite. He believed this was the most important question of the day, it was the Native question ; and if they could find their way to carry out this work of individualisation through the agency of the Natives, they would do more to settle the Native question than any other thing that could possibly bo done ; for without individual title the Natives could have no interest in the improvement of their land, and unless they could have property and be afforded the means of progression by means of that property, all their efforts to rise would fail. The difficulty of accomplishing this object has arisen from several causes, the principal of which was the action of the Home Government in Lord Ciernarvon’s despatch disapproving of the Bill of 18b8, on the ground that it interfered with the system of land purchase which the Home Government had sanctioned, and which had worked well. Another difficulty was one which the letters appeared to give hope of being removed, —the apathv of the Natives themselves. While he (Mr. Weld) had held office there had been some instances in which

a move had been made in that direction, and he, though hampered for want of money, took upon himself to recommend to His Excellency to have letters written to those Natives telling them that as soon as they put the question into the position in which the Government could take action (they •having settled and arranged the matter between themselves) lie would undertake that the Government should go to further expenses in leading to a result so desirable to both Native and European interests. He did not mean strictly individually ; they must begin at tribes possibly, and liapus, and get by degrees to absolute individual rights. Every facility should be given for their so doing ; and if such a system could be made to grow up among the Natives, they could get to the real solution of the question of how to buy land-. Some regulations might be necessary to prevent them from utterly and recklessly.squandering their property. When the member for Hawke’s Bay arrived hero he spoke to him (Mr. Weld) on the subject, and he (Mr. Weld) expressed to him the deep* sense of its importance, especially as affecting Hawke’s Bay. He. saw that the state of things at Hawke’s Bay was one that must lead to grave difficulties, not only if the land purchase system was persisted in, for that was impossible, but unless some action was taken in the matter, and he had stated to the hon. member that he hoped before the end of the session by some resolution of thisTlouse to get the Government placed in a position in which they would be authorised to adopt active measures to accomplish the object desired. The Native Minihas referred to regulations, but ho (Mr. W.) supposed it was not the intention of the Government in the present session to submit any regulations on this subject to the House.—[Mr. Mantell was not aware that it would be done this session.]] —- He (Mr. W.) did not at all wish to press that ; it was a difficult matter to deal with, which it would be unfair to try to press before the end of this session. Mr. Harrison made a few remarks in favour of the motion, which were not distinctly audible in the gallery. Mr. E. Graham: spoke in support of the individualisation of Native title, and suggested that if the pre-emption system, which had worked well under Fitzroy, were at the same time adopted, it would be very advantageous to the colony. Mr. Richmond said the hon. member for Cheviot (Mr. Weld) had anticipated much of what be should have said on this subject. He acknowledged the fairness of the statement made by the Native Minister with reference to the policy" pursued by his predecessors. The bon. member would have to express sentiments to this House in unison with those of the ministry against which he had voted on a question of Native policy (finon Provincial matters he had expressed himself as one with them.) He (Mr. E.) spoke in no wrath, for he was only too happy to see the hon. member occupy that scat, but thc’act by which bo placed himself there was one which placed him in an entirely false position, as lie would in time recognise. The Government to which he (Mi-. II.) had had the honour to belong had alwavs recognised and acted on this fundamental principle—that they could only advance colonisation of the country through the civilisation of (he Natives. Whether looking at the question as colonists only occupied in getting rich (a calumny which he repudiated), or from a higher point of view, as philanthropists and men who would have to answer for those matters in a higher tribunal Gian this House, thev bad always came to one and the same conclusion. But they had been frustrated in (heir endeavours to attain this object by those in whose bands the ultimate decision rested ; and dav after dm-and week after week bad they been arraig-ed fin- a course of policy which they had done their best to resist. That was strictly (be ease with regard to this question of individualization of native title. They bad always recognised the great principle that they must first civilise the Natives if they wished to extend colonization ip tips ("Vdnnv. Whenever the House determined to individualise Native title, whether trlbaliy (which was only He first step) or strictly individually, they must then come to consider, what are they going" to do with it? But that was a secondary question which this resolution did not ask them to conclude upon. The House was not in a position to decide on the powers of alienation to he enjoyed by persons who should have individualised their titlesthey must await the ultimate judgment of the English Government, for this matter was locked up till they heard from Home. He behoved they should get that ansiver shortly through a new Governor. and it might be possible in the present session to carry into effect some of those principles on which be believed they wore absolutely agreed. It might not be possible to legislate this session, but one practical step they might take—with regard to the money. They had not a large fund applicable to the extinction of Native title, and he declared his deliberate conviction that the best and indeed the only road to that result was that pointed resolution. Ho therefore invited the hon. gentleman on the ministerial benches to make a proposition to the Committee of Supply on the subject of funds. It was strictly within the purpose" of the loan of £IBO,OOO, and be hoped that when the ministry brought down the estimates for the Land Purchase Department, they would take the opportunity of putting down some sum, to be charged on the £IBO,OOO loan, for the purpose of taking some steps for initiating the individualisation of Native title. Mr. D. Bell said it was with feelings of sincere regret that he had found the Native Minister on this occasion bad not taken (he opportunity to give the House any clear and definite idea of the advice he would tender the Governor on this question. He bad not been able to gather from what that hon. gentleman had said anything more than that vague generality of agreement in opinion which had formed the staple of every speech made on the Native question since debates on that subject first commenced in this session,; instead of which lie bad hoped to hear something which would lead the House to see the distinct opinions held by the hon. member as to the mode that ought .to be adopted for (he purpose of individualising Native title. He bad also expected that some notice would have been taken/of the difficulty raised by the member for Napier with respect to the real meaning of the letters from Tareha and Eenala. Having reason to believe that the opin-

ions of the Native minister were nearly in accordance with his own, ho the more regretted that hon. member had not made a clear and definite statement of his views. There was a sum of £IO,OOO placed on the estimates for Native purposes generally, and a statement should have been made ot the manner in which it was proposed to appropriate that sum. Not that he considered it too large ; indeed it was a very small sum ; and if the Native minister had come down with a larger proposal, and stated the objects of its appropriation, he would have received the same cordial support on the part of the House which had been promised -to the Government in every discussion that had taken place on Native affairs. If they were to meet to-night in a thin House to finish off the estimates, they would lose the last opportunity of receiving a statement of the opinions which the Native minister entertained. [Mr. Fox : The hon. member could not have done so on this motion of a limited character, without being called to order.] —The motion,was ono touching the root of the Native question, and it was a fine opportunity for the Native minister to have informed the House what his views were with respect to the individualization of title, and how he intended to effect those views of his which he (Mr. B.) believed w ere, in point of tact, enlightened. Since the announcement of the appointment of Sir George Grey, hon. members seemed ready to abandon their constitutional function of enquiring what should be done for the settlement of the Native difficulty, and to be desirous .of handing it all over to Sir George Grey. He believed they would not be performing their duty iinless they were ready to lay down nowg in tho application of the money to be voted this session, some definite line of policy on the subject of the settlement of the Native title to land. He was much afraid there were many persons taking deep interest in Native affairs and posssessed of a great amount of information, who were quite wrong in the direction in which they proposed to apply the means which the country was ready to place at the disposal of any Government for the settlement of the difficulty in which we have become involved. There had always existed a great difference of opinion between those taking most interest in Native affairs and best qualified to advise on them, as to tho policy that, ought to he pursued in the treatment of the present Native crisis. There was one class who said it was the duty of the Government to offer the Natives civil institutions, law, magistrates, police, &c., and let the land question alone : a policy, he must suppose, which was approved by the present ministry. [Mr. Fox : No. The present ministry would advise that all land-purchasing should cease for the present, till such time ns some system for effecting it in accordance with the wishes of the Natives and with the assistance of an authorized tribunal ot law could be proposed, but the Government never thought of putting aside the land question.] Air. Bell had not supposed the Government meant to put aside the laud question entirely, but he had been led to infer that the mind of the Government was rather tending to the support of that line of opinion he had indicated. The other line of policy ad vocal ed by those equally well skilled in the the subject, was based on the opinion that all their law and order, good government, and social institutions were nothing if they disregarded the absolute necessity of maintaining the extension of British territory, and British colonization of these islands (boar, hear.) It had, in one instance, been well said that tbe Natives had held the territory in order to keep out the law : and they would find their account in steadily pursuing this principle in <bc treatment of the Natives that they might ■mve r v.-vt except that line of separation, t ~i‘ h. ; ,i u r whicu was sought to beset up against the spivad of Hnglish colonization. With respect to what had just been stated by the hon. member for P.angitiki on tbe course the Government proposed with respect to purchase of land, he feared the Government would get into a serious difficulty; and he ashed them to give their re-consideration even to that lesser form of antagonism to the .-y-neia ui'ia'ict purchase which the hon. member for r.aagliik i he. 1 , just laid down. He believed they would be getting into a serious difficulty if they made a definite statement to the Natives that for the present (hey intended to buy no more land (hear, hear.) That policy might have success in the end, but in the present they would find it involve results of an importance which they might not at this moment see. Standing a few days ago near to this office,he wasaccosted bysomelTokiauga chiefs, who said, “We have friendly feeling to the hew Government, but what is this we are told about their not buying any laud ? We have just been to-day to the Land Purchase Department, and we are told that the Government don’t intend to buy any land : what do you think about it?” lie said, ‘‘Had not we better leave it alone for the present ? There is difficulty in the Waikato and at Taranaki, and there are a large number of people who say it arises out of buying land : had not wo better let it alone altogether?” They replied, “What, is the good of being friends with you ? We have been helping tbe Government all along, and we have tried everything we could to maintain peace at iiokianga; we have sent back the emissaries of Wircmu Kingi and of the Waikato king, and have stuck steadily to the Government, and now wo find you refuse to carry out the Treaty of Waitangi.” [Air. Mantell entered into an explanation touching certain chiefs, and an advance of C7OO on an almost completed land purchase at Aiahurangi. But this was stated by Air. Bell to be altogether a different affair. Mr. Fox then stated that the Land Purchase Department had never been authorized to make any such statement, or if so, it was altogether without the advice or knowledge of the Ministry.] T. r. Bell continued ; Then he heard that explanation with pleasure, lie had only wished to illustrate the danger that would occur if the opinions of the Government on this point were misapprehended, for in (he.case to which he had referred there was a strong feeling excited—“ What is the use of our being friends with 3 0u Pakchas ?” Nothing could move completely tend to remove misapprehension than if the Native minister would make a full explanation of the views of the Government, and of his own views, for the Natives were disposed to place personal confidence in that hon. gentleman. He (Air. 13.) would toll that hon. gentleman of one great thing he thought might bo done with little money and in no verv’ long time. The hon. mem-

liave had his attention drawn to a series of debates last session on resolutions pointing especially to the manner in which Native title should be ascertained. It was then stated bv more than one hon. member, and he (Mr B ) had himself stated, that there was no substantial difficulty in the way, with the application of a little money, of obtaining a really reliable map of the tribal holdings of the Natives in this island Ho had himself been appealed to, and had known other persons of the Native Department to be'appealcd to, by the Natives themselves for the settlement of their tribal boundaries,“and he believed it was possible to obtain such a plan as to place before the Government that information which they had never yet had- to whomtheland of New Zeaiand belonged Having got a map of the main tribal divisions of territory, it would be a satisfaction to the Natives to find mapped out their tnbal boundaries, and they would go on to the next step, that of showing hajni boundaries, till at last they got down to individual holding and right. But speaking of individual title in the wav stated m the resolution now before the house he thought they would find themselves followin’" a wiUo the wisp; the title in New Zealand was tribal, and the cases of individual proprietorship were rare. But if subdivisions of tribes would come to the Government and ask to have the partition made, they should for the present-be satisfaed To give confidence to the Natives in the 1 matter of land purchasing, it would be enouo-h 10 teh them that the Government would not buv any land the sale of which should not have been consented to at a rununga of all the owners and the boundaries publicly defined. [Mr. Fox said that, in his statement on taking oflice, he had laid great stress on individualization of title, especially with regard to kapus, and he had said that land sales would only be stopped till a judicial tribunal was established for the settlement of boundaries 1 r Mr. Bell resumed. But the Native Minister had i made 110 such statement. When the House heard •' thp ministerial statement of the hon. member for Eangitikei, they accepted it as a general indication ■ot his news ; but this House expected that tho : Native Minister would have come down with some specific and detailed declaration of the manner in which he proposed to cany out the plans of the Government. [Mr. Fox then stated that the Native Minister would make a fair statement on asking for the vote.] He (Mr. B.) was very glad to hear this, because on former occasions, when they invited an opinion from the Native Minister they had only got vague generalities. He wanted ■ his colleague to tell the house fully and frankly what advice he would tender to the now Governor He had great confidence in the abilities and views on Native affairs of the Native Minister, but he should like to hear before this house was prorogued those views openly stated, so that on a future” occasion they might see how far the Government as a body had carried out the policy so declared. His principal object in addressing the house, indeed, had been to obtain that promise which they had just received, in order that the house should learn from the Native Minister himself the manner m which he proposed to divide and appropriate the £IO,OOO, and also which of the two opinions winch he (.Mr. B.) had raffinW to, o i;lL hon gentleman would adopt as the ground-work of his advice to the coming Governor. He should be violating private confidence if he referred to the names of persons (notofficials) who were thoroughly competent to give advice to the Governor on 'Native affairs, in that manner in which they knew advice always would be given to Governors outside ot the Responsible Government to show that difference of opinion exisled ; but it did exist, and tho importance of flic choice no one would underrate. lie hoped, then, that when the Native Minister came down with the statement now promised he would, besides stating to the house the purposes f r which the £IO,OOO were to be voted, and tic ccntio' he was to exercise over it, state also to the house which of those two alternatives he considered right to pursue at the present moment in the advice he would give Sir George Grev ; whether he believed only in the present, application lof social institutions, and leaving alone or post|poning the settlement of the land question, or 1 whether he believed, on the other hand, that no civilization of (he Natives, no improvement of their character and condition, no final adjustment of the diflerenccs of race, and no peace on a lasting basis, would ever be made unless their policy was based on resisting the erection of a barrier between tho two races by closing the land against the colonization of the British people, lie would venture to urge that if they postponed the Grid question in the settlement of the present crisis, if they cnconraged the N atives to believe that the policy of the Government would be based on a refusal to buy land, they would strengthen the hands of those chiefs who were determined to retain the land to themselves, they would make it more difficult every day to break through tho barrier they would then have built up, and after a few years of peaceable Government and the granting of civil institutions to the Natives, they would also find that if they had settled the N ative question they had also effectually settled the limits of the English territory. The king movement by it'self was a trifle ; it would succumb to good government if there was nothing behind it; it was the land league, and the determination of some to hold the lands of others, that was antagonistic to peaceful relations between the two races. He was not one of those who wanted land merely for the sake of having territory ; but. to settle the king .movement and leave the land league behind would be to leave the germ of a greater difficulty and a greater crisis than they had yet seen. Mr. Fitzhekbeut at some length referred to Mr. Bichmond’s proposal of dealing with the £IBO,OOO land fund, and strongly protested against any such application of that fund. Mr. OiiMOND, on being called on to reply, said the expression of tho bouse had been so entirely in favor of the motion that there was no need to reply—in fact ho had nothing to reply to. He thanked the Government for the assurance they had given of assistance in the object of the motion and he looked forward to the statement they were promised from tho Native Minister. Question put and agreed to. Tho house then adjourned till 7 o'clock. At 7 o'clock the Speaker adjourned the House, a quorum not being present.