THE PROVINCES ABOLITION DEBATE.

Grey River Argus, Volume XV, Issue 1885, 21 August 1874, Page 2

THE PROVINCES ABOLITION DEBATE.

Aug. 19. The debate was continued by Mr Tribe, who said he was of opinion the country was much over-governed. His constituents well knew when he became an advocate of the Public Works policy, it was because he looked upon it as the means of giving the country a boon by sweeping away Provincialism, because it left but little for it to do. Not a single member who had] opposed the resolution but afforded heaps, of arguments in its favor. They, in fact, contended that you could keep nine households at a less cost than one. Why, the amount of legis. lation the, Provinces] deluged the country J with was bewildering. As to the cheapness of Provincial management, he could a tale unfold as to that. He never had seen such gross mismanagement as he had seen in the Province of Canterbury. It was only the force of circumstances that had dragged it out of the mud. The Provincial surveys were a 'comment upon management. Scarcely a town section iv Christchurch was correctly laid down. The contractor for carrying the mails between Canterbury and Westland had a contract with one Government, but was unable to carry it out, because the other Government could not re«

air tbo roads. Go]d miners suf sred great 0| pression on accoun f the double form of Government. It he present constitution of the House rith the overawing power of Superinten lents, it was almost impossible to obtair ndependent individual opinion. This luestion had been revolved so long in al heir minds, that it might at any time Lave been thrown down ( to the House, md decided by a silent vote. The hon. jentleman enumerated many Provincial shanges which had taken place in the Dolony, in . consequence of dissatis'action with Provincialism. He was jlad to see that the Press of Westland was unanimously favorable to the resolution. He believed with the member for Egmont that Provincialism was the worst iorm of centralism.' He looked upon the resolution as the forerunner of the abolition of Provincialism throughout the Colony. It was a notable fact that those the recipients of Provincial money, even who opposed the resolutions strongest were to the gentleman who moved the previous question. The land laws of the Colony, and their strange complications, afforded strong reasons for one supreme control. It was a most pernicious principle for the Government to raise large loans to purchase landed estate, and hand it over to irresponsible Provinces. Was the time ripe for the resolutions? It had been ripe for the last ten years. There was no surprise, nothing revolutionary. They had already several times altered and amended the Constitution, and he hoped that when a Bill, founded on these resolutions, was brought in it should not go beyond the second reading, so as to allow a retiring Parliament to go before the country. Mr Gibbs supported the resolutions. He pointed out how few of the North Island members had opposed the measure. He would rather see an appeal to the people than an alteration of the present Ministry before the expiration of Parliament. Probably the question would have been more fully discussed if more notice had been given ; but the coming recess would prepare them to discuss any measure brought down very fully. Mr Murray said he foresaw when the Public Works policy was brought down, that centralising the extravagance of the Colony must end in the destruction of the Provinces. The Province of Otago had a dear experience of the mischievous policy of the hon. gentleman as head of the Government, when Treasurer of Otago.- His financing had nearly turned them all into ardent Centralists. They escaped however, by the hon. member betaking himself to a higher arena. While he opposed Provincialism generally as a burden upon the Colony, he would oppose the resolutions for the purpose of relegating the question for another year. . Mr Reader Wood said it was clear that if there was no opposition leader there was a well-organised party opposing the Government, but they appeared as little able to frame a policy as to choose a leader, .only ground of . argument was the lame and impotent conclusion that they dare not discuss the question upon its merits. They met the distinct issue by moving the previous question. Boldly the Government threw down the gauntlet of battle, and though the Opposition boaat was made by able, men, well ableito hold their own, not one dared to take it up. It had been aome time a forced conclusion that the days of Provincialism were over. So firmly convinced was he of this, that this session he intended -to bring down resolutions affecting the question himself. He had consulted ho one, aud only mentioned it to the hon. member for Franklyn, who agreed !to second it. Holding these views, and having had that interest, he felt boundto give his cordial support to the Premier's resolutions. What was the general objection to such a simple proposal? Oh! the Premier promised he would not make organic changes this session ! What an inconsequential conclusion. No change was proposed this session. More alarm could not have been expressed if the Premier had brought down a measure effecting radical changes, and had asked to suspend the standing orders and carry them through all their stages in one day. The hon. member for Rodney tried to speak on both sides. When he, as Provincial Secretary for Auckland, was passing the Education Act, which was opposed by thousands of the population, who petitioned the Governor, the hon. member for Rodney pooh-poohed such agitation. He said — " Who is going to be bullied this way ; i we are doing our duty, and not going ito be deterred." He believed with the member for Franklyn that New Zealand had on its back now as much as it could bear, and that alone would induce him to support the resolution, so that the Colony should not come down year after year to borrow, chiefly to keep going Provinces that were practically defunct. They were told the Premier was not sincere, o ( nly angry with Wellington, but ho for one considered he was forced into . it. The hon. member proceeded to detail how, when the Public Works and Immigration Bill was first proposed, he was alarmed at the mode it was proposed to carry it out. In conjunction with the member for Auckland city west, Eden, and others, they formed the nucleus of an Opposition, which grew and grew until it became strong enough to unseat the Government. What was the result? This: that the hon. member for Auckland city west said there would be no Opposition Bench ; he could not afford to play unlimited loo; but the moment he was upon the Government Benches, he took up their cards, and accepted their stakes. The hon. member then quoted from the Bpeech of the member tor Port Chalmers, upon moving his resolutions for two Governments of the Colony in 1.871, to show that the arguments then adduced by him were just applicable to the situation now. The member for Port Chalmers adduced the necessity for some great change, when he said it would be more statesmanlike to come down with a measure to clip the wings of , the General Government. All this showed the uneasiness felt at the double Government — General Govern-: ment embarrassed with Provincial Govern-

ments. They, in turn, wanted to assume supreme control. The member for Bodney abandoned his position before he spoke ten minutes. He was prepared to shed the" last drop of his brothers' blood, even his little brothers' blood— Taranaki and Hawke's Bay. The hon. gentleman objected to one land law for the North Island ; but he could say that when there was only one land law for the Colony it was the most effective they, ever had. The hon. memberprdoeeded to show the evil ,- effects of Provinces coming down every session for, loans. He said the House should feel indebted to the Upper House for its action last session. The arguments from North and Soiith'^re this— South says carry these resolutions and it is the thin end of the wedge, to abolish Southern Provinces, and take the land from us. The land fund had nothing to do with Provincialism. The North said— you strip us of our Local Self-Government, and leave us nothing instead ; bub neither was true, for the resolution was supported by many in both Islands. In the early days, Provincial Governments did all the work of colonisation, and did it well;; but now they had delegated the work of cities to Municipalities, the work of harbors to Harbor Boards, the works in the country to Road Boards, and the country recognised how well they did their work. by subsidising them. This left to Provincial Governments only hospitals, lunatic asylums,: and gaols. What would be the result if to-morrow Provincial Governments were swept away 1 As to the impecuniosity of Auckland^ he need onlj say, that last session they employed themselves passing bogus estimates', that thej knew had no existence ; but when h« came to this House he found a Bill foi borrowing L 40 ,000. Probably those estimates were passed more easily to enable them to raise this loan. Feeling how em barrassing such a state of things was t< the gentleman at the head of the Government, he must cordially support the re solutions. ■■.-.;. 1 Mr Williamson accused the last speake: of making an unwarrantable assertion He was not surprised^ at one who, whei contesting the Superin tendency electioi sang doleful dirges, and only in ten de< decently to inter the Province. He wai proud to say he stood up for the Pro vinces, with which bis whole official lif< was identified. There was good; in it, am he said destroy it not. The hon. membe: explained how, after assuming office, h< had visited all parts of the Province tc discover its requirements, and applied tc the General Government for an advanc< to the Bumping Association, -on th< security of the Land Fund, in order ti show that the member for Parnell ha< made an unwarrantable statement regard ing the L 40 ,000 loan, of which he knew as much as any other member of Council It appeared to him that with their bor rowed millions, the Colonial Goyernmen was developing an assumptive spirit quit beyond the plain men of the Colony They were indulging in aIL the mimicr; of Imperial Parliament. To hear mem bers of the Government speak, one wouli suppose they belonged to some grea Empire thousands of miles away Iron the Provinces, which were keeping uj that Government. Now the Province had not been receiving fair play. Tin Provincial expenditure was referred to, and he would like to show the Minister o Public Works the north of Auckland where he had never been, but yet whert L 60,000 had been squandered under thi supervision of the Hon. Mr Katene a Civil Engineer, though he would like jt< know where he learnt engineering. Wh'a was the meaning of the sop to Welling ton regarding the seat of Government Did anyone want to dispossess her of thai honor, and as to ensuring it to her now was that likely to be binding upon tbiii successors ? The same might besaid \o the compact of 1856 ; there was no law required in either case ; and the less saic about them the better. Though.he voted for the compact of 1856, and had it throwr in his teeth, he never regretted doing so, He was no Ultra-Provincialisk He v/ai not. opposed to the Government but h« felt bound to vote against this motion, and he only hoped the Government woiilc re-consider the position taken up, for jh« felt the people would not give up thteii privileges without a struggle, and thiej would find that a new clsss of men would obine into that House who would revers« the order of things. . (Applause). ! Mr M'Glash an regarded the resolution as a much necessary preliminary to bringing the matter under the consideration! ol the public. The hon. gentleman drew the attention of the House that the chief opponents were tie Superintendents and Secretaries of Otago, Canterbury, Aufckland, and Nelson. Their conduct was certainly open to the charge that they were actuated by. the sweets of office. He could not be- a party to placing Government practically in the hands of a few Provincial officials, who ought to be looking after the affairs of the Provinces, and not be in the House at all. He had no apprehension for the Middle Island Land Fund, for in a few years the North Island must have a considerably greater landed estate. He supported the resolutions as being what the country required; Mr Cuthbertson would vote for the resolution. The conduct of the Opposition reminded him of a ragged regiment of soldiers sometimes seen in theatres passing off at one end of the stage and coming on from the other. If he had been inclined to Hansardise,, he could not find more arguments in favor of the resolution of the hon member for Port Chalmers, but he held no thinking man need be ashamed of changing his opinions. What 7 held good to-day, was not true to-morrow. There never yet was reform that obstructionists would not cry out that the time was inopportune; It was never inopportune to redress grievances. If the proposal was entirely wrong, then it was inopportune. In any case the question was propounded, and their' opinion, 'upon its merits was demanded. The assertions that the Premier merely brought : down the resolution in. a fit of bad temper with the opposition to the Forests Bill, was too childish to notice.. Speaking from personal experience, as to the economy of Provincialism, he had not-been favorably: impressed with that economy, and he was only surprised how the hon. member for Port Chalmers, who knew so much about the trials and struggles of Southland, should pretend to challenge the economy and effectiveness of Provincial Government. The very existence of Southland Province was owing to the fact that Southland cnuld never get a fair share of the revenue which she had beeu contributing tb Otago. Through local jealousy of Otago aa against Southlandi enormouß :',

and wholly unnecessary expenditure was willingly gone to, purely out of a feeling of jealousy. Nor was the outstanding districts of Otago properly treated. Was not the Timaru and Gladstone Board of Works another standing protest against the centralising tendencies of Provincial Governments. They never would give the out-districts a tithe of the revenue raised in, them. The hon., member referred to the remark by Mr J. L. Gillies as to th'e'sup'erior economy of Provincial Governments compared with the General Government, and denied their accuracy, when it was stated TthaCithe Province expended L 579 ,000 for Works, at a departmental cost of L3OOO, while: the General Government expended L7OO in laying out L 106,000 for Works. Hon; members seemed to forget that there were only a few lines yet laid by Provinces and not completed, while the General Government had actually, completed a' good" deal of work/and .had in fact paid awayjlast year,,L3oo,ooo. "It" was puerile to talk of the unconstitutionalisni of . making the change. He sinceiely hoped all 'our^institutions were susceptible of 'growth, according to the wants of ;the times; ! His objections to the resolution answered themselves, because no r change would' be made before the country had ample,,opportutiity of discussing-; the.: matter. It was idle for the hon. member forf;P,prt Chalmers :to speak. - It, was^eyident/the resolution would not lead to the spoliation of the Land Fund, when the compact- of 1856 stood intact for nineteen years without any attempt to disturb it. He would appeal to the House that this was no time to vote for. the previous question, especially when the Government staked its existence upon it. The question should be fought out upon its merits. Mr Hunter, speaking wiih 35 years experience as a Colonist,:. said the General Government had only been a . Colonising Government within the last four years. Before that it was merely a tax-gather. All the good they, did was to leave them a ' heavy legacy of : deb't 1 from^ jbneir 1 .mismanagement of Native ';■ affairsj'V; '"43.6 denied the question had ,^ .'ever, _ ' been .before; the public .to,' . {io^ a^ay VWfth Provincialism, in one island and retain it in an other, and believed the people would .oppose it heartily. He^considered the' questions of the seat of Government, and the compact of 1856, 'Bad rib coflflectioh with the abolition; ; These questions would right themselves.' If the North? had made a bad bargain in the compact it must stand by it. No doubt the .day would come when the North Island wftuld be able to pay back any indebtness-.to^the South. He could not help thinking'the discussion might operate injuriously upon the money market at: home, besides creating a good deal of bad feeling. While opposing the resolution, he must say that he would regard it as a calamity if the present \Ministry. retired from office. He sincerely regretted having to differ from those with whom he had so long associated himself, but r a representative owed a duty to the Colony as; we'll as to his party. He felt confident one result of carrying resolution would be bringing about uniform legislation. . The House then rojse;= ■ ■-r: y '^:-::l.^ August 20. ■ The debate was resumed^ by Mr 'Webb, who said he wasreturned to the House as a thorough JFVoyincialist, , but had not long been in before' _ c he; jdisboyered the weak end of Provincialism. 1 and its effect upon -Colonial affairs: fin: :the Jlouse. j^He became firmly convinced; thatv whatever might; be ; doner.with the Middle Island, ;che; .Provinces in the North certainly ought to be abolished. He could, not-sec how the present proposal; couldjpqasibly affect the Middle Island so far, asjthey were .merely asked to .afißrmthe .principles without becoming pledged to any details, The- working out of the scheme could not be placed in better hands- the: ? Bremie"r's. The was creating very little interest in Canterbury. MrSwanson said .it appeared the-As-sembly had power to strangle the ;Provinces, and was determined to do'sd. The hon. member expressed his dissatisfaction with the Government in 100t 1 keeping to their work.. They had 'dropped the Education Act * after - setting the ministers cf the Colony by the eara. They had promised L6o,ooo.'for roads in the North Island, and promised -the session would be held to, Dunedin.. They have promised to define the "lirniis of the powers of Provinces, but had' failed to keep any. ■He objected 16' the abolition, of the Provinces/ because they, would deprive the country of the services of; many men of ability and local: knowledgeyjwho were very : useful in Provincial Councils, but could' not : afford to leave' their business to attend the General Assembly. He commented at considerable length; iipon the loose /way: of the legislation; 'pi the House , and the absurd ; restriction upon Provincial legislation. The Colony was largely, ipdebted 'to Councils for the best legislation in the Colony. The essence of the "whole thing appeared.tp be, they were too poor, andtherefore deserved to be kicked. He . s.poke at- considerable length to show the superior' efiiciency of Pro vip cial Go vernmen ts • , ; as ; . compared with tnO General Government as remarkable instances. -He quoted the obstinate disregard of the instructions of the AgentGeneral, the failure of the Panama, Webb ; and j Halli ' and Forbes's contracts, to showthat the Provinces would hot have ; done worse/ but' might-have d6ne : better.' The real cause of the poverty of thJB Provinces was the way they were ; starved 'tb . death by the General Government. ''As all instance, if an offender tvas brought 1 up at the Resident Magistrate's \Court~and fined L 5, that went into the Colonial" Treasury. If he was sen tended to a month's imprisonment, the Province was compelled to board and lodge him. But for; that House they would never'have been cursed with a Native war and its subsequent legacy of debt and bad feeling between two! races, and the growth of an expensive Native ■ department;: which need never have 'been required, .The whole, secret ■ of ; the'difficulty was, financial. There were ! breakers ahead; cash would be wanted 'aboii'j Government was desirous of getting hold of land. It was quite certain the time would when the much-talked of compact would be sent up the .chimney, like smoke. / Any? way he felt that on this . matter public opinion would make itself o heardy L and no mistake.; (Applause). ;.-,_.* ■iv.VT^r;Mr Bryce said the last speaker thought Provincialism perfection. d7ltif>had>been urged by several members/ and'yp'ractitically, admitted by Mr Sheehan, that Prouihcialitjm was the worst form of centralism.' It .was amply demonstrated by the fact that all , outr.districts dissaiisfiedi He, might he. a surprise* to the ;House and country to

be a calm session was disturbed by these resolutions, but he deemed it surprise in another light, no other question had so often, come up; no other upon which men's minds were so long and irrevocably made up. If there was need to discuss the question now, and the Government ought to be the best judges of that, they were perfectly justified in dealing with it at once. ,'lt was idle to say they had to deal with Public Works, and that alone. He maintained that the initiaton of that policy was looked upon as the first step towards the abolitian of the Provinces, and now when they found that the Provinces could not drag along without charitable aid, it was high time to introduce a more efficient and less humiliating system. The abolition of the Southern Provinces must speedily follow the abolition of the North, but that would arise solely because the South would find that the North was being better governed. Provincial Govern nffents were doing nothing nov» which, could not bo done better by local bodies. A great portion of the legislation of the House was caused solely by Provincial Councils. With i their abolishment, legislation vould be considerably lessened. The hon. gentlemen went on to argue from their experience in Provincial management. They were forced to admit that all such: matters as education, police, and waste lands, should be in the hands of the; General Assembly alone. Mr White did not attach much importance to the resolution. He felt certain that nothing would come of it. If it were possible for anything to come of it the present Parliament could not give effect to it. There were many now voting for the resolution, who would oppose any measure based upon it. Although he would vote against the Government on this occasion, no one desired more to; see them remain in power, but he felt still bound to say that upon bringing down any important measure the Government dealt too much in sops. He would impute no improper motives to the members for Taranaki, whom he. noticed invaribly followed Government like lambs. Fortunately three of them could not be made Government Agents. If a proposal was brought down to disfranchise Taranaki he would vote for it.; He contended that this was a blow at popular Government. He insisted that the root of the whole discussion was the Premier's anger at the member for the Hutt's speech, who absolutely disembowelled the Forest Bill. The great reason why the Government should not take over the Provinces of the North Island, was that they had work enough already. If members were desirious for simplification of Government by abolishing Provinces, why not push their arguments* to a legitimate conclusion, and abolish the General Assembly? They had Julius Caesar, why not have another Julius 1 He was much afraid the House was encouraging the Government to use its immense power tyrannically, and believed the Premier had made a great mistake, for which retribution would overtake him. ' Mr Reeves made a personal explanation. He said the charge against him of being a Government contractor, and that that influenced his action, was utterly untrue ; his firm had not contracted with the Provincial Government of Canterbury for several years, and in consequence of these miserable charges, he had instructed that they should not tender for Provincial works. Mr T. Kelly defended the Taranaki members from the selfishness imputed by the member for Rodney, whose ideas of ""Local Government appeared to be to extend the Province . of Auckland to Cook's Straits. It was a remarkable fact that &U the members from the out-dis-tricts .of Wairarapa, Waikato, Bay of Islands, Tauranga, and : other remote places were in favor of the proposal. He quoted saatistics to show that Auckland had been largely receiving Colonial aid for the last seven years ; that so far from being willing to take for local wants a howl was raised against doing so in behalf of the sick and imbecile Provinces. This was a sufficient answer to the assertion that the General Government first starved and then desired to kill them. Mr Harrison opposed the change as too important to make in such a sudden and inconsiderate manner, without giving any intimation of such intent, and without the slightest public pressure. To use the Premier's own words, it was easy to pull down but not so easy to build up. He opposed also because of the experience he had of another legislative experiment, arid which he for one had endeavored to make a success. The hon. member quoted from the speech of the Premier when moving the second reading of the Bill forming Westland into a Province, to show that he did not think one system cheaper than the other. Nelson and Westland were practically in the same state as Auckland and Taranaki ; they had to come to the Treasurer for a dole of money, but, in the case of Westland, its poverty, was solely due to the Assembly, which gave them a capitation allowance instead of a share in the Consolidated revenue. Westland lost at one swoc.p L 15,000 per year, while Canterbury gained L 25,000. : Because the resolutions were premature, arid did not go far enough, he would vote for the previous question. Mr Jackson would vote for the resolutions as indicating the best policy for the Colony generally, and the North Island in particular. Speaking for his own district, the resolutions would- not affect it one way or other, for his district had been solely in control of the General Government for a long time, and he must say to the general satisfaction, much more so than would be the case in the hands of the Provincial Government. He had; heard that Provincialism purified the atmosphere of the House, but his experience had been that it was practically :— "You vote for my land bill, and I will vote for your railway." Mr Richardson referred to the difficulty occasioned to the General Governirient by the Superintendents, and quoted the words of the Superintendent of Otago, in which he said-" If the Public Works Policy failed it would be solely due to the obstruction of such men as the Superintendents of Canterbury, Nelson, .and Auckland." The short time the member for Selwyn was in office must make him only imperfectly aware of the nature of this obstruction ; in fact the Government could not move without first carefully considering hbyr it would affect this or that great Superintendent, In refering to the figures adduced by; the memfeer for WAikouaitij/he assulfed the House

they were utterly unreliable, and he only wondered where or how the hon. member got them. Up to 30th June, 1874, the cost of the supervision and office work, upon the expenditure of two millions of money, excepting 140,000, had not quite come up to 2\ per cent. As to the money said to be squandered north of Auckland, he would say that for; L 25,000 actually spent by the General Government, there had been constructed 36 bridges with spans of 30ft, and averaging 100 ft long j there were 20 smaller, bridges, and though the works were somewhat of patchwork nature, they extended over 460 miles- of road. The General Government was quite as well able to make a pound go as far as any Provincial Government. When hon. members talked of reducing the capitation law from L 2 to los, he understood the Government had offered iheir services to equalise the difference. Aa to the prematureness of the resolution, short as his political career had been, hs could not but notice that the growing feeling was Provincialism ought to be done away with. He knew that was the feeling in Canterbury, and in every Province of the Colony he found that the general opinion among persons in the best position to judge was, : that no matter what Government was hi power, the question. wouH have to be' dealt with as regarded the North Island, at least, long ago. As long as the South could take caie of herself, as at present, she was not likely to have her institutions changed. The House adjourned at 12.5. "Several other members spoke, but the report of their .speeches arrived too late for publication in this issue. On the House resuming, a division was taken with the following result :— For the resolution, 41 ; against it, 16. The following is the division list : — Ayes : Messrs M'Lean, Brad3haw, Yogel, : Gibbs, Jackson, J. E. Brown, Tolmiey Luckie, Steward, Mvmro, Mervyu, Seymour, Fox, Cuthbertson, Tribe, O'Conor, Andrew, Stafford, Studholme, Katene^ M^Gillivray, J. Shepherd, Richmond, Kenny, O'Neil, Tairoa, Webb, Buckland, Bryce, Bluett, W. Kelly, Eeynolds, Greighton, Wood, G. B. Parker, Ormond, M'Glashan, Wilson, S. Kelly, Atkinson, and Richardson. Noes : J. C. Brown, Curtis, Fitzherherfc, Hunter, Macandrew,, May, Reeves, Reid, Sheehan, Rolleston, Swanson, Williamson, Bunny, L. B. Gillies, Montgomery. ■ Pairs.— For : Parata, Ingles, O. W. Parker, T. L. Shepherd, Carrington. Against : Takamoana, Brandon, Murray, J* L. Gillies, Thompson. The members on the precincts who did not vote were— O'Rorke, Pearce, Harrison, Johnston, Wakefield, Wales, White, Von der Hyde.