THE HON. MR LAHMAN.

Grey River Argus, Volume XIII, Issue 1587, 5 September 1873, Page 2

THE HON. MR LAHMAN.

The following is the Hansard report of a discussion in the Legislative Council, on the August: —

The Hon. Captain Fraseir moved— | " That a Select Committee be appointed consider the- memorandum from his Excellency, which, has . been read to the Council by the Hon. 'the Such Committee to consist of the Hon. Mr Campbell, the HonrMr Sewellythe : Hpn? Colonel Brett}- the;- :Hon. Mr Gray, the Hon. Mr Bonar, the Hon. Captain Baillie, and the -mover. v ..- ';±:i ,; (> ?.-, '\'f'f ■ The Hon. Dr Grace rose to mofe that the Committee ,b,e. appointed by ballot J It appeared '•to. . him that in * any question which was^n'aiiy' way allied . to the Westland investigation, they ■should proceed 1 with the. greatest possible . ; care. For his own part, he knew very little about the matter, and he hoped, he would continue to know little about' it. 'He had not;the slightest ,obj ection to the honorable gentle- . men, whose names were on the proposed Committee '; ' on the' contrary, he approved ■of them"; 1 but in a matterrof this kind, he' hoped the; Council' would agree with him, particularly in the absence of a certain: member j that this ' Committee should be ballotted for.

The Hon. ; Captain Fraser had not the slightest objection to the Committee being appointed by ballot. '; •: vV; r;r The Hon. Colonel Kenny did not anticipate that anything further would have arisen in connection witb this matter? The ; action r taken, , it should; be> remem-'---bered, was not. the action of the whole of the Coiincil, but that of certain members of the Council, arid it 'seemed to him that members should not be balloted- for to serve oil a Committee 1 for the consideration of a question with, which they jhad* 1 had nothing to do; • 'He' might 1 as well say at once that he would object to serve on the Committee if elected;'- 1 He did lastsession what he considered his duty in relation to this question, and a very unpleasant dutyit was';.. but. having performed that, duty, much against his inclination, but in the. interests 'and with the general concurrence' pf the Council, and haying carried a resolution in the Council to bhe effect that a minute of a portion of , the proceedings should be sent to his Excellency the! Governor, he 'thought he might, be said to have discharged his duty in the matter.

The Hon. Mr Stokes rose. ,to make one or two observations with to the. resolution, so that he. might not be 'mis- ; understood in voting, against it. j He thought all had been done that could 'be done, and he feared that the appointment of a Committee would .'lead to no satisfactory result. That being the case, it would be mere waste of time to coristitiite a Committee, for the' purpose of instituting further inquiries, when they were certain not to arrive at any other result thanithat which was now before the Council. i

The Hon. Mr! Hart would pomt 1 out another objection to the motion, VhicH had been.suggested by the remarks of the Hon. Colpnell Kenny. The honorable ■ gentle man . pointed out : that the Council would recognise that the special action in relation to* wtiichthis Committee was'proposed to beiappointed was the action tanly of a■: portion: of the Council ; and he admitted, : almost in as : many i words, jthat the members ; of the Council who did not take j art in that proceeding had really no business to take part in the appointment >f a CprnMttee. The .honorable^ member Had, by an inference' which wasl the L natural .result of, .that, though' perhaps it iUd hoi; occur to him in so many wdrds, suggested that! it was np part of tfie'duijies of the Council to take 'further action in the matter. r Now, if , those ; who- did* not takepartin'thelaffairJoughthot to inter : [ fere in the appointment of the Committee, those who did take part were; asking the Council to take a; step, in advance of what they took themselves. Under, those circumstances, he would object on principle to the motion in any form. ' ■ The Hon Colonel Whitmore would support the 'proposal to elect 'the 'Comm ttee by ballot/ ! although he had'nidt failed to recognise, some force in theremarKs wjhich' had been made 5 against it, and especially by the Hon. Mr, Stokes. He thought, that, as far ; as the old _ question was [concerned, it muat be allowed ; to' drop— -jfchey had clearly gone as far as they could with it. ! But a new "matter had been sted by his Excellency'sletter ; and he tho ight now that it would be proper for theCouncil to consider whether or not it would take a'ny^steps^ since his Excelljncy had informed them that under no circumstances whatever could he giveithe-Coluicll any relief if i any/ single member of [the, Council behaved himself rin ;an impi|oper ; m ann er. The statement of his.Excellency would remain, unless - they took some constitutional step to -alter that state of things ; and he thought it lyas f npw x ar fair, question whether the Council r shbuld not attempt, by address or 'iresolatipn, possiblybyaßill, to obcainsome back dbo) 1 out: of swhich they might • put , any . gentle|men whp,in the opinion of the CouhcU,.had) for-1 f eite'd their right to occupy seat|. Jlu the Council. : That was an opmion^ which con^ cerned them 'all, arid J/Oiwhich'jnpAe of them were committed, and it; ; w t as■plim■■ po^tance,.that • it ; should, .be settled b y'aii impartial Committee. He would sup port' the proposal for a ballot, not on acount of any side that he -happened- to- iiave taken in a certairidisoussion l'astyear, but because he thought his Exoellendy's" letter had suggested an eVilfor which' 1 they! had > to provide a remedy, ; . ■ '"'" :"\\ „..; The Hon. Mr. Waierhouse" said heihad

the misfortune to 'be absent, from the Council for, a, .moment or two,, and vheii he'carae back he was rather aatpnishejd to find ithat his friend. ;CkptainFraserj had finished/ the observations with which he introduced the resolution. The! iconsequence was' he was 'entirely ignorant of the reasons which 'induced him tobping it;forward,< It 'was'hisintentiQn to] vote against ' the resolution, -and he did so because there was no bccasibn whatbver for the,, remission^pf,' his Excellericy!s'. memorandum to any Committee of! the Council whatever. If any i action were, necessary upon that memorandum, ; the ; Council was quite competent to take that action without referring it tn a Select Committee. His Excellency's. letter .'was perfectly distinct and iatelligible ; they could judge for themselves the reasoning was correct or nofc, and there, was, no necessity whatever to refer it to any! other tribunal to ..come., to. a decision upon.l His Excellency in his commuiiication had stated two things ; first of all^ he did npt.deem that there was.any necessity ■ for his taking. any action whatever in| the matter, as, there did.not, in his opinion, appear, to ;'b|B reason for: concluding iha't the; Hon.* sMriiliahman? was guilty! of making an intentional mia-atatetuont with

reference to the matter inquired into by the Select Committee of the Council. And then his Excellency stated, secondly — : "The Governor must, however, point put that it does not appear to be within his powers, as defined by the Constitution Act, to take action in such a matter, even were a member of the Council to be morally inculpated." ■•-« •».-• ,«.-,* .-rr,—.,^, He would address himself first to the last, of; his : Excelle:ricy's' remarks. His Excellency had stated that, even if it were desirable'thatheTßhould;pe;rsgQally interfere, constitutionally there was no power of interference granted to him. He did not see that there was any "necessity for referring that matter to a Committee. iThey had I the Constitution Act in their hands, and they could judge whether his Excellency's state- ' irient was correct. If 'honorable, members would refer to the 36th section of the Constitution Act, they would see? that there' were ' certain ■ ■ circumstances . i mentioned under, which, a member was disqualified from holding a seat in the Council ;ahd ;i - amongst • fhoiie -circumstances there was 'not bne J 6f 4he j character alluded to by the LCduncil in- the; memorandum to his Excellency! fiCbhsecjuently it: was perfectly clearr that it was : npt competent for his ExceHency, to, talcft 'action. There was, he thought, something behind ! the motiqn-which' did not, j appear on its surface, and that it 3 real object waa to ' rake up a matter that was a subject of discussion last year. ■ !He ■■> would • distinctly ss^ that it would be better for the Council to ■ let 1 the i matter drop;; for uthej> had e'rioagh ir of '} it] and 1 Uo;''go6d-'.wottld.Teßalt frombnnging' it ' forward^gaini-jJlf hon. members wished te know his reasons, he would say he perfectly agreed with the •remark of. his ExceUency .that t there was no cause for concluding that the Hon. 1 Mr Lahman i. was guilty; of an in- ' tentional mis-statement; and the ques- ! tion having cropped up, he had no hesi- . tation in a few words stating upon what \ grounds he arrived at the result. The ' Hon. Mr Lahman was blamed last year for two things. One was- that >he: stated >. that the County Council- of -Westland > had 1 passed' a. I resolution '<so vaf certain ■ effect, whereas no ' such resolution haik i> ever been passed. It was, however, ver^^ J distinctly admitted on .all sides, th«p ■ although there had been rid suchresolution, » there was a tacit understanding. To illustrate the; blame that waa attachable to Mr : Lahman for staling that' there had been • positive "action /when: there had been no ■' such positive action as alleged, he might, i with all respect, be allowed to allude to • ;what took place ,injthe Council lasfrThurst day, when the excuses made" by|Qertain - honorable member's' for not; being- present I at the call of the Council were considered. J- The Hbn: the • Speaker said that Council ; had received certain excuses as satisfaci tory ; but he (Mr Waterhonse) rose in his fc place ; and reminded the Hon. the Speaker that "ho " action' of the Council had detert .mined; .that; there wa3 nothing but a i tacit understanding on the part of some 3 honorable members,' and[ ; he j, /protested 3 against being bound by anything less I than a' distinct resolution of the Council, i He had in his mind at that time thi3 very - case; and he saw that the Council were r just about to commit the .very., mistake - the Hon. Mr Lahman had— that of taking b a tacit understanding as the actibn of the t Conncil; That was just' what the honor- ) able gentleman had done.;, Theother confc nected point with the ' Hon. ! Mr Lahman's r conduct was, that he stated he had not J written ,a r letter;, in; a^rtaiui matter, t and when^ it ..was, .produced there , were found certain words interlined 3 by himself. It certainly did look; a rather i ugly affair ; but the other. day when he b (Mr Waterhouse) wa* attending a Com- : mittee ,of ;r the Council, he ', read a , letter^ with' 'some degree 'of; atten- . J tiorijits contents 'appearing' perfectly new b to him, when Tie was surprised to find his • own name to the document. The fact was he ) had written the letter himself, and it had entirely passed away from his memory. ■ If be'had been at witness; ahd T had been i asked if he had, written such a letter or > not, he should have undoubtedly said that t >he never had 'done so. He could i call to r his mind circumstances in- his life that ;. had entirely escaped his recollection, and ■ which had afterwards been 'brought back r to hismemory.F: Itwasimppssibleforany i person : transacting:^-public- businessj and '. having in addition to attend', to his own ; private affairs, to avoid' -falling into such r -annistake as to think he had neverwrittfitt . a letter which he had, and even to stk^f ' positively that he had not done so. He was glad to hear the Hpn^ Dr Pollen reecho these sentiments, for he liad had a , .large [official, experience, and although he ; was 'possessed of 'great' ' administrative ; powers, yet; he; believed the honorable gentleman would say that he was capable of failing into a' similar mistake. He though^ he had , shown that- for two reasons his Excellency was justified in saying there was no cause f OTjooncluding that : the '/Hon. /Mr : Lahman was guilty of making.: an- 1 intentional mis-sStement. ; He'hbped. this; 'matter wbuldibe fallowed to lapse, arid he> would deprecate anything like a personal issue being raised. , ! Because' the n h,bhbrable : mem^ber di^ not hold exactly the same; position 1 iri.Spciety as : other hbribrable,;^ " this .Gpiiiicil; wpuld not. fpr.brie' m'dment tolerate a M ** te^£*?.™*% .^AlPP unc il too hot for hirn^ "or dnvb^ hirirbut of its precincts. -The horibrable member has as much right in this Coutjcilas any other member of it, and he was entitled tois much respect asariy other -miember.l) Yet action had 'been ; taken ; in ; a: strongi andrdecided ; manner< against the.Hon^ Mr^it^man,* : ';'.'.*' while^ as regarded, an honorable member holding a high social position, whose conduct had: ibeen characterised 1 ; by; a Judge of the Supreme Court in words calculated to-i convey the most : serioqs imputation upon'him; : no action such as this had been taken. That honorable member was one of those , who in , the Hon. , Mr Lahman's case : said it called for interference, and the . .Gpverri'merit 1 should tate steps, to turn the .honorable member out ,<if the Council. ,'lt. ~\ was not creditable to all partiep concerned, that such things as these, should happen. , They should not; let the idea go iforth-that thisOounsil would hot tolerate, or would not receive on equal 'terms, members who did not occupy the same social position as the majority of honors able members, There was nothing for r which -he had: a; greater oontempt than .social distiriotions based on wealth. Social positions in: this Colony were no guide to him whatever to the character of a man. What he respected was a man's character, and if that ; were good, -he did riot care whether ihelwasT* laboring man or not. In i his opinion, a laboring man. was as much entitled to a seat' in this CoHncil as anjr <honorable meriiber in ft. He would not be one by ariyactibri«f hia to'niak©

the Council too hot for the Hon. Mr Lahroan,:and he would yote^ against the resolution of his honprable friend. The Hon. Captain" Eraser really could not understand all the extraordinary warmth exhibited by his honorable friend. He, thought they mi£cht accuse him of having an arribre pensSe in thematter, for the hori. member must have information which he had not given to the Council. He had been given an opportunity of stating what action he advised His Excellency Sir George Bowen to take in this very matter. ', The Hon. Mr Waterhotwe never gave any advice at all in the matter, which waa , never referred to him. ' The Hon. Captain Fraser said all his life his • creed had been a code of honor, and through a long life he had carried that honor untarnished. It was rather too late in life for him to be taught by the Hon. Mr Waterhouse, who had lived a long time in another part of the world, what part he did not know. He had his own opinion .of what was honorable, and when he heard a lie he knew what it meant. The Hon. Mr Waterhouse said if the honorable member's remarks had any force whatever, they were to the effect that a member of the Council had been guilty of a lie. He knew the remark did not apply to him, but to the Hon. Mr Lahman. It was distinctly a breach of order for any honorable member to make such, an imputation against another. ; : The Hon. the Speaker did not take the remark in that light, and, judging by the silence of honorable members, he did not think any member excepting the Hon. Mr Waterhouse did so. If a remark were made that. bore that interpretation, he should be unworthy of the position he occupied if he did riot immediately request the honorable member to withdraw it. The Hon. Captain Fraser had brought the motion forward without consulting any one. He had done with Mr LahmaD, who had been acquitted by his Excellency the Governor, and had moved for. the ]'■ Committee with the intention of discussing, the latter part of the memov ':^\ianduin,-'They -should. consider that quesWtion, for there was no power in the to dismiss a member of the - Council ; her Majesty's representative had none, and the Council had none. It ""■ would be necessary for them to carry a petition to' the foot of the Throne to obtain that power, and it was wihh that view that he moved for the Committee. ( \Bfe rebelled all the high-flown sentimental ■ ! -of his honorable friend, and it „; would be far better for the honprable gen■■tieman, Iwho had done more injury to the Council than anyone else, to explain why he left the Government. He* ex-, plained very fully why he joined the Govemmeiit,' but he never said why he left it. ; ' , __ ■■■"'•■ Motion negatived.

-t'JP

Mi 1 "'-.

Proprietors,

'..'■' l

CHINA,

1 10 1 0

Resident Secretary.

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