GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXIV, Issue 2611, 19 August 1882, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

(pna PEEaa association.J LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Feiday, August 18. BILLS. The Bluff Harbor Foreshore Reclamation Bill and the Dangerous Goods Bill were passed through committee. The Council disagreed with some amendments made by the House in the Justices of the Peace Bill, and managers were appointed for a conference. The Thorndon Reclamation Bill was read a second time. The Savings Bank Acta Amendment Bill was considered in committee, bnt as it met with much opposition, progress was reported after an hour’s discussion. The Auckland College Bill was read a third time.

The Court of Appeal Act Amendment Bill and tho Criminal Law Bill were read a third time. The Supreme Court Bill and the Law Amendment Bill were paesed through committee. The Private Tramways Bill was read a third time. The Council rose at 5 o’clock. HOUSE OF BBPRESENTATIVBS. Fbiday, August 18. The House met at 2 30. QUBSTIONS, Replying to Mr lißYPstam, The Hon. Mr Dick eaid it was true the licensing commissioners of St. Albans did grant licenses to two public bouses to keep open till 11 o’clock. The permission was not in accordance with the Act, but he did not think the police were the proper authorities to interfere. Replying to Mr Duncan, The Hon. Major Atxinbon eaid the Government did not intend to make provision for payment of 12 a 61 in the £ to the local bodies, being balance of enbsldy under the Abolition of Provinces Act.

Replying to Mr Tole, The Hon. Mr Dick said the report of the Auckland Hospital commission would _be given effect to with the view of improving the condition of that establishment.

Replying to Mr Fish, The Hon. Mr Eollbston eaid a piece of land containing five poles fronting Anderson's Bay had been omitted by the Harbor Board's surveyor, and the Government did not think it desirable that the Legislature should interfere in the matter.

Replying to Mr Duncan, The Hon. Mr Johnston said that the railway platelayers would not be supplied with shovels, and their attendance was required on the lines on holidays. Replying to Mr Steward, The Hon, Mr Johnston said the business transacted at the Post and Telegraph Office, Waimate, was not sufficient to warrant the erection of a now building. Replying to Mr Steward, The Hon. Mr Johnston said the matter of establishing a Railway Employes Accident Pond would be taken into consideration by the Government.

Replying to Mr Harris, The Hon. Mr Johnston said no promise was made to a ganger on the Auckland railway of an increase of wages. Replying to Mr Seddon, The Hon. Mr Dick said the Mayor of Kumara had forwarded a letter to the Government complaining of the way in which Warden Stratford performed his duties, and it would bs laid on the table. AUCKLAND HAILWAY STATION BILL. On the motion of the Hon, Mr Johnston, the Auckland Railway Station Bill was introduced and read a first time, BBIVATH BUSINESS. On the motion of the Hon. Major Atkinson, it was agreed the House should meet for the despatch of private members’ business at 11 a.m. on Monday. MB SHBIMSKI’S AMENDMENT.

The Hon. Major Atkinson said—Before the first Order of the Day is called on, I desire to say the Government have had under consideration the amendment to the Doan Bill proposed by the member for Oamaru. After carefully opnsidering the matter, the Government have come to the conclusion that the clause is foreign to the objects of the Bill, and would tend to anything but the public interests if inserted. We will therefore ask the House not to insert any such clause in the Bill. The same issue as the clause raises was raised last year by the hon. member for Motueka, who then carried a resolution in the same direction, and who has again a notice on the Order Paper bearing on the same subject. The Government, believing that the House desires to discuss this question, propose to postpone all orders of the day so as to allow Mr Hurathouao’s motion to come on, and be decided as a mot ion of principle. If the House is willing to take this course, I shall then move certain amendments to the resolution expressing the views of the Government upon the question. I may say generally that the Government proposals affirm the principle of the motion, and to refer it to a Select Committee to report on in a week. After the notice is disposed of the Government will proceed with the Doan Bill a* it now stands, and with the other Government measures in due course, whetherthe report of the committee is brought up. We will give the House every facility for considering what action shall be taken. If the House wishes to discuss the question, we think it of such importance that it should be discussed on its merits and not as a party question. Mr Shbimskx said that a report had been current that he had brought forward the clause at the instigation of some other person. He denied that euoh was the case. It had been solely an emanation of bis own mind. He objected to the course proposed to bo followed by the Treasurer. Mr Montsombbt would oppose the Doan Bill going on until this question about the taxation was finally settled. Having said that, he would not oppose the proposal to postpone the order of the day and bring on Mr Hursthouse’s motion.

Mr Holmes said that Mr Bhrimski’s clause was distinct from that on tha order paper in the name of Mr Hunthouse, and there was, therefore, no reason why the former should not be gone on with. The motion dealt with the past, whereas the clause dealt with the railway to be made in the future. There were objections to the motion which did not exist to the clause. Many lands through which railways passed had changed hands, and their acquired value had been added to the purchasing prices. No such objection could be made to the clause, as the clause simply affirmed a principle that lands contiguous to railways to be made should be made liable for any deficiency in the working expenses. It appeared to him that the proposal of the Treasurer was simply an attempt to shelve the question, and he hoped Mr Shrimski would not consent to the postponement. Mr Burrow spoke in favor of the clause being in. He had all along been in favor of some such proposal as this. Mr Macakdbbw said that unless embodied in the Loan Bill the clause would never get on the statute book. Ho hoped the Treasurer would agree to postpone the Loan Bill until the matter had been reported upon by the proposed committee. Mr Fish regarded the proposal of the Treasurer as a deliberate attempt to burke the whole question. He acquiesced in the opinion that there was a considerable difference between the clause and the motion, Whatever difference of opinion might exist as to the past, there should be no mistake as to what they intended to do in the future. Unless the clause was inserted in the Loan Bill it would not be given effect to. The Treasurer had told them that a similar motion to this clause was passed last session, and yet they took no notice of it. That showed that the Government was by no means anxious to see this measure passed. He asked them to divide the House at once on this point, and allow the country to see who were really in earnest about this, and who were not. Mr J. E. Bbown argued that it would be wrong to have the clause inserted in the Loan Bill, iHe supported the proposal for having tha whole matter referred to a Select Committee appointed by the leaders on both sides of the House.

Mr Haulin wai pleased with neither the clause nor the motion. If the principle was to be affirmed they would have to go back to 1870, and say that all property benefltted by the Public Works expenditure should be taxed. The object of the proposition was manifest. It simply meant that a certain class got the railways, then harbors and other works, and these were to get out soot free, whereas all who had net got similar works were to be taxed. Mr Wtnn Williams could see that the debate would drift into one of a party question. If it did he would be compelled against his conviction to vote against those resolutions. The answer to the previous speakers was that if their representatives in the past had abased the trust reposed in them, that was no reason why they should continue doing so. The Treasurer had told them he could not import the resolution into the Bill.

Mr J. Buchanan said that Hawke’s Bay at all events was not afraid to go back to 1870, and face the question of retrospective taxation for its railways and other works. If they were not prepared to do that, then he was prepared to accept of Mr Sbrimski’s resolution.

Mr Whxtakbb had thought over the matter carefully, and while he uphold the principle, ho did not see how the retrospective question was to be made out. He alluded to immigration, and said that a great deal of money had been spent in that way, and who was to bear the taxation for that. Goldfields water races were in a similar situation. As a matter of fact, in the district he hailed from land was not as valuable as it was before the railways were constructed. On the other hand, land in Queen street, Auckland, had gone up immensely since the railway was opened, and the trade concentrated in that city. How then was tho tax in that case to be adjusted? He for one could not see. Then, as regards the future, tho question was surrounded by equally great difficulties, and b« ©ailed upon the mover of these motions to explain fully how they proposed to deal with the numerous classes of cases which came under these categories. The House divided.

Ayes, 45. Messrs Atkinson, Brown J. E (St. Albans), Bryce, Buchanan, W. 0. (Waira apa South), Oonolly, Dick, Dodson, Driver, Fitz Gerald, Green, J. (Waikouaiti), Hamlin, Hobbs, Hurst, Johnson, O. J. (Xe Aro), Johnston, W. W. (Manawatu), Kelly, Lsvestam, Levin, Maoandrew, Mason, Mcllraith, McMillan, Morris, Munro, O’Oallaghan, Peacock, Petrie, Postlethwaite, Pyke, Rolleoton, Rutherford, Shepherd, Stevens, Steward, Sutter, Sutton, Tawhai, Thomson (Christchurch North), Trimble, Watt, Weston, Wilson, I. (Eaispoi), Wright. Noes, 29—Messrs Barron, Bathgate, Bracken, Brown, J. O. (Xuapeka), Buchanan, J. (Napier), Oadman, Daniel, Dargaville, Duncan, Feldwiok, Pish, George, Gre’y, Harris, Holmes, Hutchison, Ivess, Joyce, McDonald, McKenzie, J. (Moeraki), Montgomery, Moss, Shrimski, Taiaroa, Thomson, J. W. (Olutha), Tole, Tomoana, Turabull, White, W. (Sydenham). The Orders of the Day were postponed. Mr Hubbthousk moved—" That in the opinion of this House those districts through which the Government railways ran should be charged with the difference between working expenses, including interest, on cost of construction and receipts from such railways.’’ It had been argued that while they did not go back npon railways that have been made in the past, they should, nevertheless, rate railways in the future. He could not agree with that logic. Duly qualified valuators under the property tax would be quite able to say to what extent tho various properties had benefited by railways being constructed. It had been said that it would be unfair to make the tax retrospective, as properties may have been sold in the interim, and the enhanced value was added to the purchase price. The same objection might bo argued to a land or even a property tax, and yet such an objection would never be sanctioned in these oases, Ho had no wish to embarrass the Government or advance the purpose of the Opposition. His views on tho subject wore that the present system was a great injustice, namely, that properties in no ways benefited by railway works construction should be rated the same as lands where the value had been greatly enhanced thereby. The Hon. Major Atkinson could not agree that it would be more difficult to tax from the beginning than to impose such a tax in the future. He hoped they would face the position as it stood, and not look at it through the medium of either this or any other Government. The rate, if made at all, would have to be made on the capital values and by rating the districts. The subject had received the careful consideration of the Government, and, if not all, the most of tho members of the Government wore in favour of the principle. They recognised, however, the surrounding difficulties, and up to the present time they had not been able to see their way to make any definite suggestions. If the Committee could obviate that difficulty then they would confer a great advantage upon the Government. The question was one, however, which had nothing to do with the Loan Bill. That would have to be proceeded with, and he asked them to dissever the question from the loan—from the one now immediately under notice. If the Committee did not see its way to deal with the question they would at least be able to make suggestions for the consideration of tho Government bstween this and next session. Persons through whose land it was proposed to take the railways would hove a right to be heard before the line wu constructed, and that in tho case of lines in whioh there was a break like the Wanganui-New Plymouth line would be very awkward. There was a break there, and the property holders in the break would have a right to insist upon being heard before the coupling link was made. That would the difficulty by whioh the whole question would be beset, and the inexpediency of thinking about delaying the Loan Bill until the whole question was delayed. Ho concluded by moving as an amendment “ That the principle of special taxation of property, increased in value by the expenditure of public money and by the construction of railways, harbors, &0., is just ; that to give effect thereto was beset by many difficulties, and that the same be referred to a Select Committee to confer and report upon the whole subject within one week, the said committee to consist of Messrs J. B. Brown, Sir G. Grey, Hursthouse, Mecandrow, Shepherd, Sutton, Hurst, and tho mover. ” Mr Shbimski took exception to the constitution of the proposed committee, and maintained that his name ought to have boon proposed. Mr Fish also objected to tho constitution of tho committee. It was cue which would be entirely with tho Government on the euba

ject, and he argued that it would prove to be a useless discussion. The debate was interrupted by the 5.30 adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30.

Mr Fish continued the debate, and was followed by Mr Shbimski, both of whom explained remarks previously made. tir G, Gbby asked that his name should be removed from the committee. Ho held strong views on the point, and he had not disguised bis opinions, bat he felt certain from the names on the committee he could not expect to bring the committee round to his views, and he would only feel uncomfortable under the circumstances. He wonld, however, be prepared to give evidence before the committee if required. Mr Mohtoombby argued that the railway system was at first inaugurated on ;the distinct understanding that the lands were to be rated, and he saw no difficulty in going back to that understanding. He thought, however, any rate must necessarily be on the capital value. Colonel Tbimble argued that the proposed tax would impose great injustice in some cases. He instanced same oases in which a property had been sold at a greatly enhanced value in anticipation of railway communication being established. Special taxation like that proposed would only complicate matters. He denied that it would bo a simple thing to return to the policy of 1870. Under that arrangement it was only where the Crown lands revenue fell short of the amount that the tax was to be imposed. Mr Lbtbbtam pointed oat that in many instances the railways had cot besn completed. That was the reason they did not pay, and it would not be fair to make good the deficiency under these circumstances. Mr Kelly argued that it was impracticable to carry out the proposal on a fair and equitable basis. He indicated land in his district which had been reduced in value since the establishment of the railway communication. The ramifications of the railway system were so vast that it was impossible to say who benefitted most by them. Mr Wynh Williams condemned the borrowing policy, contending that tha result of the late confidence vote did not go to show that a majority were in favor of that policy. It only wont to prove that they hed grave doubts of the ability of the Opposition to form an efficient Government. Speaking from his own experience in a late visit to England he could inform them that while the English money lenders were satisfied with the future of the colony, they were equally of opinion that it had gone too fast, and should stoy its hand for two or three yeara. Mr Conollt said that the previous speaker bad made a good speech, bat it was utterly foreign to the question at issue. He objected to the clause, as also to the motion tabled by Mr Shrimski, The ten mile radius was a most unfair proposal. He knew of places within ten miles of the railway in the district which ho represented no more benefited by the railway than if they had been in the other island.

Mr O’Oallashan expressed himself in favor of a progressive property tax in preference to a land tax. He also supported the proposal for the appointment of a committee to consider the whole subject. Mr GbobGE blamed the Treasurer for having been the means of wasting their time. A similar resolution was passed last session and nothing came out of it. The proposed committee, if appointed, would arrive at no conclusion this session, so that nothing practical was likely to be done. Mr Smith thought it would be fair to tax the districts improved by railways, and spend the money on the unimproved portions of those districts. That would tend to popularise the tax. They were told that it was too late in the session to consider snoh an important question. It appeared to him that these questions were always brought on late in the session. He asked them, as a new Parliament, to take a stand and get the point fought out, Mr Babbon objected to the assumption that tho discussion was a mere waste of time. It was a discussion of vast importance to the colony at large. He spoke at considerable length in support of Mr Shrimski’s proposal. Mr Muneo said the Government bad brought down definite financial proposals, and instead of traversing them boldly amendments were submitted which were simply to waste the time.

Mr Duncan and Mr Harris supported the motion.

The House divided on Mr Hursthouse's motion.

Ayes, 22—Messrs Barron, Bracken, J. Buchanan (Napier), Feld wick,George,Holmes, Hursthouse, Joyce, McDonald, J. O. McKenzie, Montgomery, Moss, Seddon, Shrimski, Smith, Steward, Swanson, Taiaroa, J. W. Thompson (Olutha), Turnbull, Weston, W. White (Sydenham). Noes, 89—Messrs All wright, Atkinson, Baetham, Bryce, W. O. Buchanan (Wairarapa South), Oadman, Oonolly, Dick, Fergus, Fitz Gerald, Hamlin, Harris, Hobbs, Hurst, 0. J, Johnston (To Aro), W.;W. Johnston (Manawatu), Kelly, Levestazn, Moll wraith, McMillan, Mitobelson, Munro, O’Oallaghan, Pearson, Petrie, Postlethwaite, Pyke, Holies - ton, Rutherford, Shepherd, Stevens, Sutter, Sutton, Tawhai, Trimble, Watt, Whitaker, 1. Wilson (Kaiapoi). The Hon. Major Atkinson’s amendment then became the substantive motion, as follows :—“ That the principle of specially taxing property increased in value by the construction with public money of railways, roads, bridges, harbors, public works, is just j that to give effect to she principle by legislation so as to do substantial justice is beset with great difficulties ; that it be referred to a Select Committee to consider the subject and to report thereon.” Mr Sbddou moved the following amendment:—“That a respectful address bo presented to his Excellency the Governor, praying him to introduce without delay a measure to give effect to the following—That when any railways are made through private lands or lands owned by members of the Native race, and when those lands or lands adjacent thereto can be proved to bo increased in value by the construction of railways, that such lands shall be valued and classified before the railway is constructed, and thereafter that on the increased value given to such lands, the owners, therefore shall pay to tho Crown per cent, of such increased value, or the alternative shall be given by paying 5 par cent, per annum upon the whole amount of tho increased values given to such lands by the construction of the railways ; that should such landowner demur to accepting the foregoing alternative* then tho Crown shall be empowered to purchase the lands at the price at which they were valued prior to the construction of the railways being datermined on, the terms and condition of such purchase to be settled by valuation,” The Hon. Major Atkinson expressed regret at the desultory talk which had taken place instead of a debate on this important question. The Government had given every opportunity for full discussion, and that this had not been taken advantage of was certainly not Mr Montgomery’s fault. He de sired to thank that hon. member for the manner in whioh he had met tho Government in tho matter. He hoped Mr Beddon would withdraw his amendment, for its only effect could be to shelve the whole matter, Mr MontgohebY thought that to refer the question to a committee would be to shelve it. He would therefore vote against Major Atkinson’s motion, so that when Mr Seddon’s amendment became the question the principle might be settled. Mr Btewabd urged that the Loan Bill should bo postponed to the end of next week, so as to give the committee time to report. Mr Swanson opposed the amendment, as the Government would find it difficult enough to make the railways through Native lands without euoh conditions as Mr Seddon proposed. . Mr Weston did not see how it wae possible for the committee to make a report of any value in the time given. On a division, Mr Seddon’s amendment was lost by 32 to 21, Mr Moss then moved tho following adcition to the motion “ That in order to avoid increased complications of this very difficult question, further consideration of the Now Zealand Loan Bill bo deferred until the report of tho committee be received and adopted.” ... ~ . Seconded by Ms Joyce, but lost on a. division by 30 to 21. Major Atkinson’s motion was then, earned on the voices. Major Atkinson moved that the committee consist of Messrs J. E. Brown, Connolly, Hall, Hursthouse, Maoandrew, Montgomery, Shepherd, Sutton, Seddon, and the mover. Mr Weston proposed to substitute Mr Shrimski’s name for Mr Sutton’s. Lost on the voices, and Major Atkinson’s motion was carried. The Hou.e rose at 3.30 a.m.