GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXIV, Issue 2597, 3 August 1882, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Obess association telegram.] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wblnhsday, August 2. BILLS. The Hon. Mr Oliver brought in Bills entitled the District Railways Act Amendment Bill, and the Pharozyn Disabilities Removal Bill, which were read a first time. In reply to the Hon. Mr Chamberlain, The Hon, Mr Olives said that the fact that telephone'excbanges were being so largely patronised showed that the charges were not considered too high. Tho Hon. Mr Chamberlain ashed if the Government would bring in a Bill to stop juvenile smoking. The Hon. Mr Whitaker said it was an exceedingly difficult thing to put down these practices by legislation, but if Mr Chamberlain would bring in a Bill to stop smoking by everybody he would support it. IMPRISONMENT FOB DEBT. On the motion of the Hon, Mr WILSON, a return was ordered of all persons who have been imprisoned for debt during tho last year. BANKRUPT JUSTICES. The Hon. Mr Wilson moved—“ That in the opinion of the Council, persons who become bankrupt should not be ratained on the Commission of the Peace. The Hon. Mr Reynolds, Hon. Captain Fraser, and Hon. Mr George McLean supported tho motion, the latter saying that as a new Governor was coming, a new Commission should be issued, when the names of all who had been bankrupt could be left out. Tho debate was adjourned at the request of the Hon. Mr Whitaker, who promised to make inquiries. THE SMALL BIRDS NUISANCE BILL. This Bill was read a second time after mnoh opposition. The amendment to throw it out was negatived. The Council rose at 4 30. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday, August 2. Tho House met at 2 30. TRUSTEES, EXECUTORS, AND AGENCY COM PANIBS BILL. Mr Bathgate resumed the debate on the consideration of the report of the committee on the Trustees, Executor?, and Agency Companies Bill (private) i He objected to the power given to executors to merge the trust into the proposed company. In that way the wishes and intentions of a testator might be abused. The Cape of Good Hope had been referred to, where they had been in existence for the last fifty years. There, however, the liability was unlimited. He moved as an amendment that the report be referred back to tho committee.

Mr Weston seconded the amendment, and in doing bo explained that the company bad been formed some time ago, and that in order that its object might be carried out the directors were authorised by the articles of association to come to Parliament for statutory powers. He hoped they would pause before conferring these powers upon the company. Mr Levin said he was chairman of committee. The evidence of Mr Bathgate bad been taken in the matter. That evidence had to a great extent guided the committee in the decision arrived at. He hoped the amendment would be negatived as the committee had discharged all the functions devolving on it. Mr De Lautoub spoke in favor of the Bill, pointing oat that, in the country district! particularly, where professional advice was weak, great loss was sustained in the management and administration of estates. This company would obviate that difficulty. It was quite out of the question to talk about making all the shareholders reside within the colony. If they resided in the colony when the shares were allotted, how were they to be kept in the colony in all future times. The proposal was a most untenable one. The Hon. Major Atkinson said that the Government thought the Bill might be passed with an amendment, providing that a certain amount of ca; ital might be deposited with the Government, say £IO,OOO, The House divided. Ayes, 44 j Noes, 28. The amendment was lost and the report agreed to. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Hamlin, The Hon. Mr Johnston said tho Government would be prepared to assist the Mount Weliingtoa Highway Board to maintain the road from the Harp of Erin to Panmure, but they would not declare it an arterial road. Replying to Mr Hamlin, Tho Hon. Mr Johnston said that wharfage charges at Onehnnga were in excess of lother parts of the colony, and that steps would be taken to assimilate these charges, so as to make them uniform with other places. Replying to Mr Hutchison, The Hon. Mr Bryce said that the officers commanding the districts of Taranaki and Auckland were the only ones paid salaries. They were old officers who acted as adjutants, and bad the command of their districts.

Replying to Mr Hutchison, The Hon, Mr Dick said his attention had been directed to the case of an old soldier named Hazlett, convicted at Auckland of indecent assault. He believed that the man’s age was overstated at fifty-five. If the medical authorities were satisfied that the state of bis health warranted it, ha would, no doubt, recc-iva the thirty lashes to which he bad been sentenced.

Replying to Mr Watt, Tho Hon. Mr Dick said it was not intended this session to introduce the Now Plymouth Harbor Commission Bill. Replying to Mr Fulton, The Hon. Mr Eollbbton said ho had directed the refund of the £3O levied on Mrs Lo Keong and her two children on their return from China.

Replying to Mr Maoandrew, The Hon. Mr Kollbbton said proposals had been submitted for tho opening up and settlement of the Holly ford Valley, Martin's Bay, and the Government thought it might be warranted in assisting the County Council in the repairs of these tracks. Replying to Mr Steward, The Hon. Mr Dick said the Government had made inquiry into tho case of Mark Bishop, and had sent to the R.M. who tiied the case for further explanation.

Replying to Mr Da Lautour, The Hon. Mr Dick said steps had been taken to rebuild the court house at St. Bathans,

Replying to Mr J. McKenzie, The Hon. Mr Bollbston said steps had been taken to resume possession ef the Shag Point coal reserve, Otago, from Mr Elliott, who had infringed the terms of his lease.

Replying to Mr O’Callaghan, The Hon. Mr Johnston said the opinion of tho law officers had been asked as to whether or not the Government was bound by the Fencing Ordinance in the matter of railway fences, but the advice had not yet been received. He thought it was, however, the clear duty of the Government to maintain all railway fences, whether legally liable or not.

Replying to Mr Hutchison, The Hon. Mr Dick said that the flagging had been inflicted on the prisoner Longhuret without any bad results. Replying to Mr Duncan, The Hon. Mr Eoixeston said runs numbers 204, 210, and 207 were being surveyed for sale on deferred and cash payment in suitable areas, and would be ready for sale as soon as the present leases expired, which would be on March let next year. The House adjourned at 6 30. EVENING SITTING, The House resumed at 7.30. BILLS.

The Customs Laws Consolidation Bill was read a third time and passed; the Industrial Schools Bill was read a third time and passed, THH FINANCIAL POSITION OB THE COUHTBY. On the motion to go into supply, Mr Mohtqokkby said he wished to make some observations on the financial condition of the country, and to put those views before the House. It was not his intention to speak on the Loan Bills, because they would come

on for consideration upon a future oooaiion, nor was it hii intention to say or do anything which would call forth a party feeling. It was his wish to examine the finances of the country to the best of his ability calmly, and without evincing any feeling that he was speaking as a party man. There were some things in the statement of the Colonial Treasurer which he thought required to be spoken of. He would ask the attention of the House for a little time to the finances of the country, and what he thonght was the financial position of the country. The public debt of the colony ou the 31st March deducting the accrued sinking fund, was £27,687,000- They started this year with £203,000 to the ordinary credit. There could be no doubt the increased revenue of last year was somewhat cheering, as showing the increased prosperity of the country. The Customs had increased to £125,000 during the year, Hon members would not forgot that this large increase in the revenue was due very largely to increased taxation. The increased duty, as far as he could make out, that the public had to pay was £269,835. The increase in the revenue was because they had very largely increased the taxation upon the people. For the current year the Treasurer proposed that there should bo taxation upon the people—actual taxation of £1,900,000. From this £50,000 should be deducted, which the Maori population would, in all probability, pay to that taxation, and they had £1,840,000 to be contributed by the European colonists of New Zealand. He wished to show how much that was per bead of the population. Acoording to tbe last census there were 485,000 of European population, and,if they divided £1,840,000 by the amount of the population, they would find the taxation would be £3 9s per head—man, woman, and child. He considered it a matter of very great importance to ascertain how much each class of the population produced, The Treasurer had divided them into three classes—the property tax class, the intermediate class, and the industrial class. This was a fanciful description, but he would accept it for the sake of putting before the House his opinion of what each had to pay. When the Treasurer mentioned that the industrial class had to pay 17s 3d per head, and the property class £6 per head, he left out of bis calculation a very important factor, the duties upon wines, spirits, tobsoso, and beer, which last year amounted to £744,546. The Colonial Treasurer loft that great amount entirely out of his calculation, and said these artio'es could be done without. It was very likely some of them oonld be done without. It was quite possible that the property and intermediate class would pay more in ad valorem duties, but he put it to hon. members from their knowledge of what they had seen if the working classes did not man for man consume as much as other classes did. He though members would agree they paid a great deal more. He would have to ask hon. gentlemen to form their own opinion, |but his opinion was that tho working classes consumed man for man the same amount as the property class did, It was time the property class paid in ways the working classes did not. There were the amounts received from stamps, bills of exchange, promissory notes, and cheques. Ho did not put down the whole amount of £IB,OOO as being paid by the oonsnxer, because some of the amounts wore no doubt paid by landed property, but he would put down half that amount. He calculated that each class paid £3 per head, independent of the property tax, altogether, and the property tax man paid, in addition to that, something like £3, or about £6 in ell. Be asked hon. members to consider how this tax fell upon the people, The tax was not £2 a head in Great Britain, and in Victoria it was not £2, nor in Now i South Wales. The people of this colony—the industrial classes of this colony—should awake to tbe fact that they paid a higher tax than was paid in any English speaking country, and when they realised it they should insist upon tho taxation being upon that which should bear it. What was tho cause of the large taxation of this country ? It was the many millions which had been spent, some profitably, and some of it fooled away, but that which had been spent directly benefited property, and has raised the value of landed property to the extent of twenty millions. It was a matter for consideration whether the incidence of taxation should not be altered, so that landed property should bear a fairer proportion of taxation. It seemed to him a fair matter for consideration whether the £150,000 or thereabouts should be paid by those who bene fitted by the expenditure on railways and immigration. Another matter of equal importance was the exceedingly unsound state or the finances of the colony. They borrowed for public works, and if that had been spent judiciously it was a perfectly judicious moans of raising money, but they had borrowed to pay for the deficiency in the ordinary revenue. They had borrowed to the extent of £1,800,000 — £800,003 in 1877, and £1,000,003 since then. Ho would point out that no reduction had been attempted of the debt. They ought never to resort to the expedient of borrowing to pay interest for money borrowed. In Spain, Turkey, and such countries, snoh a thing cs this was done, but in England it was not. So, if there was a falling off in the revenue, she immediately put on an income tax and cleared off the deficiency. In America tho enormous expenses of the civil war were paid off, thei revenue being increased to somewhere about 140 millions. In Victoria,, in 1879, they borrowed ha’.f-a-million by Treasury bills, and they put on a tax, economised, and had pud it alloff. In 1877 they borrowed £BOO,OOO, and in a year or two there came depression again, and borrowed again. They had prosperity at present, and should not continue borrowing, but should begin to pay off liabilities. Dj not let us think that the people outside tho colony did not know tho state of their finances. They know it very well, and the people of New Zealand knew it to their cost. At the present time they bed £203,000 to their credit. The Treasurer proposed to use that all up except £BB,OOO, but the Supplementary Estimates would take that off. Wbat did the colony pay for its money in London? Did it gat it at 5 per cent ? New South Wales negotiated its loan on tho 16th of June very advantageously. This colony paid 25 per cent, more than it ought. They rushed into the money market to borrow, and never gave the money lender an opportunity of getting off the debentures placed in the market. The moment the money lender allowed us them they rushed into tho market again, taking up a miserable position. They had to go with their hat in their hands. He did not intend to take up tho time of the House at great length, but he would ajk hon. members to seriously consider the position of the colony. The House was asked to sanction a four million loan, but he would not go into that, because he knew that would be contrary to the rules of tbe House, but he would ask hon. gentlemen to consider this—that they wore going into that market; they were going to esk for more money at the very earliest moment they thonght the: people would give it to them. When hon. members came to consider the Loan Bill he would ats them if they bad considered if this money when expended was likely to be remunerative or would it entail additional taxation. Ha would ask hon. members to consider whether it was fair, whether it was just, that money expended to raise the value of landed property throughout the country if the interest of that money should be paid by the working classes of the country. He would ask hon. members to look into the matter sufficiently before they sanctioned large liabilities, which must be a charge upon property or upon the people, and he would ask the landed proprietors if they were laying up for themselves a store of taxation. He would ask hon, members to consider whether they were not creating a burden for their descendants and perhaps for themselves. It should be insisted that the taxation should be put upon tbe shoulders of those men who had received an enormous increase in the value of landed property. He would not at present take up the time of the House on these matters. He had put these matters before the House from no party feeling on his part, as, if he was going away from New Zsaland to-morrow, wishing well for the land ho had lived in for so many years. He had endeavored to put the financial position ns be saw and understood it. He would not go into the loan question at present, but would thank hon. members for the attention they had paid to him, and hoped they would not take anything he had said to-night with a party feeling or spirit, The Hon. Mr Johnstoh said at the pre sent time the railways paid four-fifths ot the cost of their construction. The only intelligible portion of the previous speaker’s re marks was that the working class were too heavily taxed in proportion to tho property classes. If they compared the colony with t what it was when tho public works policy

was first inaugurated, their imports sow were much more sound than they were at that time. The fair comparison was the average income of the population to tbs average debt per head, and, viewed in that light, he did not think that £3 per heed was more oppressive than the rate in New South Wales and elsewhere, yet the rate per head did not exceed £2. Their revenues were more now in proportion than it was when they began. The rates of wages had increased since the public works policy was initiated, and to that extent the working classes had been benefited. They were tte class who had been most benefited. The whole of the previous speaker’s arguments went to show that they should not borrow now, but he had shoaa that they were in a better position to do so now than they were when the public works policy was first instituted.

Mr Lbvbstau argued that the special taxation demanded attention, the beer tax being specially mentioned. It affected a local industry, employing a large number of p none, and as suoh it was a most unfair tax. He disputed the argument that wages were higher to day than they were before the public works policy was inaugurated. Ha took exception to the property tax, and argued ia favor of a tax being imposed on landed property.

Mr Holmes said the speech of Mr Montgomery showed that this colony had now a debt second to that of no other country, ard that its taxation was also in excess of that of any other country. Their borrowing schemes were designed not for the benefit of the industrial daises, but to give special value to the landowners. It was also shown that the New Zealand securities stood lowest of all the colonies in the money market, the percentage being five, while other colonies did not exceed four or four and a-half. He argued that taxation in New Zealand was ton times as great as it was in Great Britain. Mr HxmszHonsE denounced the loan proposals, and warned them that the wave of adversity which swept the colony a few years ago might again return, and it would find them just as ill, if not worse, prepared to meet it than they had been on the previous occasion. He deprecated further discussion on the subject, remarking that the whole subject would come np for discussion on the motion for the second reading of the Loan Bill on Friday. Mr Fisk thought Mr Montgomery’s remarks worthy of serious consideration, It was a significant fact that while they proposed to add four millions to the debt of the country, they proposed to reduce the property tax one farthing. Had they remitted the speoial taxes put on in an admitted emergency, that would have been sound finance, and not relieve, as was proposed, the property classes. He contended the loan proposals as expounded at the commencement of the Public Works policy, and pointed out that while the latter proposed to tax the properties through which unproductive lines were made, no snob scheme was now proposed to be made. They had been told that the railways were paying, or at all events went in that direction j but he pointed out that no allowance had been made for depreciation of rolling stock, permanent way, and that when that was done the ordinary surplus would disappear altogether. Mr Htjbsi referred to the circumstances under which previous loans had been raised, and remarked that at present New Zealand 41 per cents were quoted in the London market at £IOO, and the 5 per cent, at £lO7 to £lO3. In his opinion Government deserved the thanks of the colony for placing its funds on a sound and satisfactory footing.

Mr J. W. Thomson compared the expenditure on public works during the last year, showing that in the provincial district of Otigo the expenditure had been far in excess of other parts of the colony. The expenditure of Taranaki was more than three times the amount of its revenues. The secret of all this was that Taranaki was ably represented on the Ministerial benches. Mr TnKHBULIi challenged contradiction when he said that the land of Taranaki averaged throe times the value of the Olutba lands, and the acreage was equally large. He twitted Mr Montgomery with having entered upon a criticism which might have been done at any time during the last seven weeks, as since the Financial Statement was made. He quoted from late files of home papers to show that the credit of Hew Zealand stood higher than any of the other colonies.

Captain McKenzie complained that vary little money had been spent in bis district. The Hon. M*jor Atkinson said what confidence could ths country have in such ail Opposition as the Home had heard tonight, The hon. member for Akaroa had told the House the total taxation paid per head was £3 9s 2d. He (Major Atkiuscn) failed to follow him as to what it was he proved, because such a fact as just dividing the revenue by the population meant simply nothing—absolutely nothing. It was meaningless, except so far as it might bo a convenient mode of expreesing what the hon. gentleman wanted to convey to the House, and then he proceeded to examine, and he( the Treasurer) was following him in his order nearly as ho could, the qaoition as set forth in the financial statement. He was pleased to say there was a great fallacy in that statement, and that fallacy was this: that he (Major Atkinson) had not obtained sufficient information to give reliable figures. He had excluded the question of tobacco, spirits, and wines from his calculations. There was no fallacy in that. The hon gentleman said he had left out £700,000. Ho gave bit reason for not including that amount in his inquiry, but he would pursue his inquiry a little further, and next session would be prepared to tell the House definitely the actual position, and then the House would ba able to say whether be was correct or the hon. gentleman. If any hon. gentleman would turn to the financial statement he would see there a possible limit of the working man's expenditure in this direction. The total amount left for household necessaries, bread, meat,&,r, was £43,that was taking the average wage at £l3O. If the working man did nob get that how was it possible he could pay the taxation. The member for Waituki submitted to the House a statement of the expenditure of a working man, a laborer receiving 36> a week. If that expenditure was true, and he supposed it came from such a source that the member for Akaroa would receive it at once, he would eay the total taxation paid by the working men of that class was only 35 j, that is to say 7s per head, instead of the amount he (Major Atkinson) hid put down, hut if ho had only 2s 41 a week to provide for anything else, he (Major Atkinson) wanted to know how he was to pay the enormous taxation. The hon. member for Akaroa said he paid it, but ho (Major Atkinson) said it was impossible for him to pay the taxation ; but the member for Akaroa said ho did so. Even taking the average rate at £l3O a year, it was a physical impossibility. Mr Dub can—lt is the single man who pays the taxation. The Hon. Major Atkinson said it was quite true that the single man did pay a great deal more taxation—the single man who spent an inordinate amount in tobacco and spirits. It web a very reasonable taxation to put upon him if he spent his money in that way instead of caving it. Therefore that argument failed. Deft sitting at 12.30 a.m.