GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXIV, Issue 2577, 11 July 1882, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[pbb»» association zblbsbam.j HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Monday, July 10. The House met at 7 30. 2*OBT OHALMBBB HABBOB. Mr Macandbew gave notice that he would a(k if the attention of the Government had been called to the necessity for deepening the harbor at the Railway Wharf, Port Chalmers, so as to enable the vessels now on their way direct from England for frozen meat to load alongside the wharf. NATIONAL INSUBANGB.

The Hon. Major Atkinson rose to move his resolution on the subject of National Insurance. He said it was the most important resolution ‘' he had been privileged to lay before the House. He would proceed to give a broad outline of the scheme, leaving details filled up afterwards. He claimed no originality ; the idea had originated with Mr Blackley, in England. His scheme, however, differed from the original one in one or two points, designed to meet the requirements of the colony. Mr Blackley’s proposal was, that if a man remained capable of labor he should have no right to a claim from the fund, but he (Major Atkinson) proposed that everyone, without distinction, should draw from the fund. The question of a remedy for the pauperism of the old country had often been raised, but it was more readily asked than answered. As the aggregate of wealth increased, so did the unevenness of its distribution. The line was being drawn sharper and sharper between the enormously rich and the extremely poor. Be the contributing causes to poverty what

they might, they did exist, and its; peared to him they were gradually advancing in this colony. The rates of charitable aid were gradually increasing in proportion to the population, and they must be preporei to see a large number of persona supported by charity, unless they could devise some scheme as this. No greater calamity could befall the colony than* the adoption of a system like the English poor law. It had degraded and demoralised one of the finest peasantry in the world. The next question was how could they provide for the masses without demoralising the people. The remedy appeared to him to be co-operative thrift and commerce, and that to be successful would have to bo national. The predisposing causes of pauperism were then enumerated. The first two causes wore lowness of wages and inability to get work. Thesa could not affect a young progressive country like this to any great extent. The other causes were sickness and old age. They were doing practically nothing to check pauperism. They had charitable aid and charitable institutions, but these did not aim at the root of the evil. Friendly Societies were, no doubt, doing a great work, ‘but they did not grasp the evil as it existed ; theywnade no pro vision for women, and otherwise they failed to make complete provision for the evil as it existed in all its multifarious branches. All the persons who became national paupers were as a rule outside these societies. Alluding to a national voluntary society, he said it would be inoperative for the same cause that hampered the friendly societies. In that case national and compulsory insurance was the only effectual way of grappling with the evil. As regards the practicability of the scheme there were those who thought the minimum proposed was too high. If such were shown to be the case ho would be prepared to reduce it. He fixed the minimum from inquiries made of these societies as to the amount upon which persons could subsist. The next important matter was, what to pay to obtain this? Every young man and woman between sixteen and twenty-three, or eighteen and twenty-three, would be charged at the rate of £4l 17s Id. This would be the total contribution required to provide for sickness and old age, and it would only represent 2j 3d per week if from sixteen years, or 3s 3d if fromeighteen years. If the sum was paid down at sixteen £33 7s would suffice to provide. However, for widows and orphans a further sum of 2» a week for five years would bo required. Looking at the rate of wages and the circumstances of the colony he believed all could without difficulty pay these sums. The question, supposing they could not pay, he discussed by stating that if snob was the case the sooner they knew it and the fact was. looked into the better. He, however, did not believe in any such doctrine of incapacity to pay. If provision was to bo made it must be made while they were young. Again, in regard to the class of young men and women who stayed at home and earned nothing he had no sympathy with them. Either the father should be in a position to pay the premium or else he should be wakened up to the importance of making these persons reproductive, He would be told that this scheme would apply only to persons under twenty three, and that a large proportion of the population would be outside the oge. He would provide for the existing population over twentythree by c impelling all persons above that ago to provide by a payment not above £6 a year for a certain number of years. But he would not include females in this, and would leave out males over fifty who were already provided for by being members of friendly societies. Persons over sixty-five might

he thought well bo provided for out of the Consolidated Revenue. Immigrants under twenty-throe would be treated as other young persona were, and those over that age as the present inhabitants were. Although not a part of his scheme, he thought it would be quite legitimate that Crown lands rente should be brought in to the assistance of charitable institutions. Dealing with the machinery for carrying out the scheme, ho said it would be necessary to divide the colony into districts. These should be coterminous with the local bodies, and the administration to a great extent should be left in their hands. As regards the collection of premiums, it would bo necessary to make employers responsible for its punctual payment, and to stop the payments so made out of wages. In support of the practicability of this ha referred to the fact that in Sngland factory owners were bound to stop the school peace and pay It over to the school Boards. A number of contributions from seafaring men were levied in a similar way. The investment of the fund would have to be altended to by a Board, presided over by a Minister of the Crown, Regarding tbs securities to bo taken, be thought Government securities and freehold properties might betaken. In that way ho was sanguine that 6 per cent, would be secured, and as the tables wore fired at 4 per cent, they would see that a considerable profit might arise. He would suggest that the sick should be looked after by an officer of the lopal body, assisted by district visitors. The sick list could be posted at the office of these bodies, so as to present as few frauds as possible. Travelling inspectors would also bo necessary. He was not proposing tho establishment of a largo department. Ho had taken all these matters into careful account, and was convinced that no cheaper method could be devised for avoiding a poor law. There would bo no forfeiture, so that one groat drawback to tho friendly societies’ system would be obviated. He denied that those proposals were a atop outside the proper functions of Government. He disagreed with those who would confine Government to polioedaties. The Government had already done what tho greatest radical five years ago never thought of. Nothing could bo done nowadays without combination. If they could promote the well-being of the people and strike a fatal blow at pauperism,' that certainly was within tho functions of Government. They had got compulsion already, so that the argument that it was an interference with the liberty of the subject fell to the ground. He would not admit for a moment that the scheme would clash with the friendly societies. The scheme proposed doing exactly what they were endeavoring to do, and would bring within tho pale the community as R whole. It would enormously strengthen these societies. The difficulty with a man was in making the first saving. In that way the schema would operate as an incentive. The proposal made no provision for burials, medical attendance, and comforts. It only covered tho bare necessaries of existence, and left tho Friendly Societies to look after these very necessary provisions. Blind people, imbeciles, and other unfortunates would have to be provided for by the State, always supposing they had no friends capable of paying tho premiums Criminals, when he caught them, he would seep them until they had repaid the State, To clerks and the children of others in genteel employment they should give no encourage- > meat, and ho would not make them subject! for pity or any exemption. Small settlen i were also a class for whom some excoptior might be claimed. He argued, however, i<

they were not capable of paying thie reasonable tax, then the eooner they discontinued such employment the better. The whole subject was one to which be had given deep consideration. He asked them to give a similar share of their attention. It had been said that he proposed to make New Zealand a J huge benevolent society. He would only be glad if he could even claim to hare had a band in such a great work. He was con- 1 vinced it was practicable. Mr Monxgomeey added that Major Atkinson deserved the thanks of the country for the earnest attention he had given to this most important subject. It was not from any party feeling that he felt it his duty to let the country know that objections had been made to the scheme proposed, and he wished to allow the country to weigh the value of these objections. Young persons of the ages indicated might in many cases find a difficulty in complying with the demand for premiums. The young persons often supported aged and infirm parents. Again, he did not think sufficient attention had been given to the difficulties attending the collection of these periodical payments,and 'great difficulty would be ex-

perienced in detecting persons malingering. Sir Geobgb Q-bhy did not gather from what passed between the two last speakers as to whether or not it was to be regarded as an encounter. The Treasurer had not told them what was proposed to be done. This scheme was first prepared for England, and thero was not an analogy between this colony and Great Britain. In England there was fixity of population, but here the population was migratory. In England there was a diffioulty in investing small savings ; tiere there was no such diffioulty. He looked upon this as r. fresh fax, and in his opinion it was a design to shift the taxation from property, and put it on to the shoulders of the people themselves. There was only one bright spot in the Treasurer’s speech. It was that the land was the property of the people, and should be used for the support of the people. But he did not tell them that he and his friends had robbed them of the best of these lands. They made laws to their own profit and the plunder of the people of the colony. Poverty was threatening the country, and it was no wonder. The Treasurer would have done his duty better if ho had put the tax on these properties. Look at the immense values given to their properties by no labor of their owners. It would only have been right to have taken this tax out of their properties by means of a land tax. That was not to be the case, end a poll tax was to be improvised: He agreed in the opinion that this proposal would destroy the independence of the population. The effect of this law would be to break up all mutual benefit societies. In that way the independence of the people would be struck at. It was a blow at the family ;it was a

blow at Christianity ; it was a'great attempt to introduce communism. In many cases the young people would be unable to provide the money themselves, and to ask their parents to do it would be to compel them to divert money from other more legitimate purposes. It was another attempt to sweep the savings of the people into the coffers of the Government, like the Public Trust and other offices. It would have the effect of sapping all the finer feelings of our nature. The Treasurer had asked what was the duty of Government ? He replied that it included the making of laws that would encourage and protect friendly societies instead of crushing them out, as was attempted to be done. He would do his utmost to prevent the motion passing. It was the duty of the Opposition to insist upon this being put to the vote, and not to allow the Government to retire from their position. He asked members to stand by him and bring the motion to a vote. Colonel Thimble criticised the proposal, stating that the payments proposed were too high, and would be found impracticable. The funds he thought should be invested in the colonial debt, and not as proposed by the Treasurer. Mr Montgomery had addressed himself fairly to the proposal, but he had been rather unfair in his comments upon the proposed machinery. The proposal to make criminals work out their debt to the State would clash with the cry that had gone forth against teaching skilled trades to prisoners. That, however, was a very partial cry, and proceeded from persons of no intelligence. He thought the scheme would tend to thrift, and parents would be induced to labor early and late to put themselves under the operation of a scheme that would remove them beyond tbe possibility of want. He denied that it would be relieving taxation on property. It would not prevent this or any other Parliament compelling property to pay its fair vshare of taxation, -At present the honest man was compelled to look after his own children, and the destitute children of the state also. 1 his measure meant that an honest man should still be compelled to look after hia own and also to compel the dishonest to boar their fair share of the burden. He looked upon the whole as a good one, but as it stood it was burdened withdoo many propositions.

Mr Moss knew of a large number of young persons, especially women, who were glad to earn I3s per week at tewing machines. He looked upon the scheme as oppressive. Mr Blackley's theory was to taka away the poor rate of England, and throw it npon these young persons. The conditions were very different, for they had no poor rate. All that was required in that direction was defrayed out of the consolidated fund, and the Treasurer proposed that the fund should Jbe relieved of it, and the burden cast upon these young persons, Mr Hurathouse spoke in favor of the proposal and Mr Hutchison against it, .Mr Sheehan did not think the Treasurer had given the question the consideration it deserved. They ware told that the proposal would not clash with the friendly societies, which meant that the societies would get all the thrifty and provident, and that the thriftless and improvident would be left to the Government. This measure singled out the most helpless class in the .country and said we shall drag the tax out of you. The machinery proposed was most cumbersome, and the amount raised would be largely swallowed up in salaries. To make the proposal effective they should make each class contribute according to their means. He concluded by moving as an

Government was not satisfactory. ” Mr Ttjenbuix opposed tho proposal, and attributed all poverty in this colony to land monopoly. Mr Shephbhd moved the adjournment of the debate till to-morrow. Carried on the voices.

In reply to a question put, The Hon. Major Atkinson said ho ores not prepared, in face of tbe amendment, to asy that the Public Works Statement would be brought down to-morrow. Mr MaoandeEw said the amendment meant nothing, and they trusted the statement would be brought down aa originally proposed. Mr Seddon moved that the debate bo adjourned till this day week. The Hon. Major Atkinson said it would bo impossible now to discuss the question on its merits. Mr Shebhan said that Government would not harden up the question to a no-confidence motion. If that was deemed advisable, it would be taken on a very different basis. Mr Mohtqombbt said he had accepted the Treasurer’s assurance that he did not mean to press the question to a division. Speaking for the Opposition, he said they would not recognise it as a confidence motion. The amendment did noi come from tha party, nor would it be supported by the party. Mr Fran said the previous speaker was speaking for tho party with which he was identified. There was another party, _ and they thought tho question should bo fully discussed. The Public Works Statementought to bo brought down to-morrow. Sir Gboege Gbey said there was no intention of acting discourteously to the Government, He took exception to Mr Montgomery sneaking as he had done. It might affect the character of certain hen members, his own included. Mr MohtGOJisbt said ha had never alluded to Sir G. Grey as being a member of nis party. Mr Moss expressed e hope of seeing a groat provincial party arise from the present confusion. Mr Macakdbbw thought they should really leave the Government to arrange the order of their own business. The motion for adjournment till to-morrow was pot and carried on the voices. Tno House rose at 1.35 o.m.