PARLIAMENTARY.

Globe, Volume XXIII, Issue 2301, 18 August 1881, Page 3

PARLIAMENTARY.

[PBESS ASSOCIATION TBLBGBAM ] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, Wednesday, August 17. The House met at 2 30 p.m. In reply to tho Hon. W. H. Reynolds, The Hon. F. Whitaebb said that he would submit to the Government tho question of appointing unpaid Boards as a medium between employers and the unemployed. The Supreme Court Proceeding and Practice Amendment Bill and the Native Reserves Bill (Hon. F. Whitaker) were read a first time. The Hon. G. M. Watbhhousb gave notice to e'k what the Government intend to do to make decamping husbands amenable to tho law. The Lower House returned reasons for insisting on their amendments in the Gaming and Lottery Bill, and they wore ordered to bo considered next day. The Hon, H. Scotland moved tho second reeding of the Law Practitioners Bill. The Hon. F. Whitakeb In a long speech, while admitting tho present system was open to amendment, moved the throwing out of tho measure, which would result prejudicially to the community. The Hon. N. Wilson supported the Bill, though he would require it in committee to bo so altered that only one branch of the profession (barristers) would come under the Bill.

The Hon. W. H. Reynolds supported tho Bill.

The Hon. R. Hast pointed out that in England it had been found necessary to make tho process of admission to the Bar more stringent than formerly. The Hon. G. M. Wateehousb supported tho Bill, subject to amendments, and contended that it would result in benefit to both professions and the public. Ha stated that Mr Travers, who recently condemned rascally bills of costs, approved the general principles of the measure. The Hon. Captain Ebasbb and the Hon. Mr Qbace opposed tho Bill, on the ground that the lawyers’ monopoly was a most useful one to tho State. At five o’clock the debate was adjourned till 7.30. EVENING SITTING. The Council resumed at 7.30. The Hons. P. Buckley, G. Johnston, Acland, Williamson, Peacock, Colonel Brett, and Dr. Pollen spoke against the Bill. The Hon. N. Wilson mentioned that the Chief Justice approved the principle, provided there was a high examination. Tho Hon. H. Scotland replied, and the Bill was thrown out by 20 to 6. The following is tho division list: — For the Bill—Hons. Dignan, Lahman, Martin, Scotland, Waterhouse, Wilson, Against—Hons. Acland, Baillie, Brett, P. Buckley, Chamberlain, Fraser, Grace, Hart, G. Johnston, Mantell, Menzies, Miller, Nurse, Peacock, Peter, Pollen, Robinson, Whitaker, Wigley, Williamson. The Bible in Schools Bill was passed through committee, with an amendment that no teacher should be compulsorily present while the Bible is read. Tho Council rose at 10 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, Wednesday, August 17. Tho House met at 2.30 p.m. PETITION. Mr Hutchison presented a petition from Alfred J. Renner, telegraphist, praying for compensation for loss occasioned by the action of the Government in forwarding his name to New South Wales in connection with tho recent strike. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Wright, The Hon. J. Hall said that as soon as a surveyor could be spared, one would be instructed to ascertain the most favorable route for the extension of the Mount Somers line, with the view to the execution of the work by a private company under the Railway Construction Act. Replying to Mr Wright, The Hon. J. Hall said that enquiries as to the necessity for making the North Selwyn goods siding a flag station, and providing the necessary platforms would bo made. Replying to Mr Finn, The Hon, W. Rollebton said that a lock up at Queenstown had been recently erected. Replying to Mr Reeves, Tho Hon. W. Ifoi.r.iKTnTj said that a reserve would be laid out for cemetery purposes at the junction of the main Grey Valley and Maori Gully roads. Replying to Mr Reeves, The Hon. J. Hall said that enquiries would be made as to the advisability of reducing passenger fares on the Brunner-Qreymouth line. The work had been an expensive one however, and Government would have to see that some profit was made out of its working. Replying to Mr Gibbs, The Hon. W. Bollesxon said that Government did not consider a board of enquiry necessary re the granting of mineral leases for Oollingwood goldfields. The Waste Lands Board, Nelson, had not granted any mineral or agricultural leases. Notwithstanding an adverse report from tho Warden, the Commissioner had granted a mineral lease within a gold mining area, and this had been done under legal advice. So far as the Government was aware, applications for agricultural leases on the Oollingwood goldfield were made to the Warden in the u-ual way. Replying to Mr Ormond, The Hon. W. Bollebton stated that Government would produce a statement of the position of the land purchase fund and land purchases in tho North Island, and would make a statement as to what was further proposed to be done in the matter of these land purchases, before considering the Railway Construction and Land Bill. Replying to Mr George, The Hon. W. Johnston said that Government did not intend waiving its rights under the bonds entered into for reimbursing the Telegraph Department any deficiency occasioned through tho opening of telegraph ofiioes in their district. Legal advice was being taken as to whether these bonds could be enforced after the Government had raised the tariff at those stations, as was done last session.

Replying to Mr Finn, The Hon. W. Johnston said that inquiries would be made as to the necessity for re-open-ing tho Post-office at Kawaru Bridge, Arrowtown.

Replying to Mr Lundon, Tho Hon. W. Johnston said that Mr Manns, telegraphist and postmaster at Kawakawa, had been challenged for signing a requisition asking a person to allow himself to stand for a seat in the House of Representatives, and promising his best endeavors to secure that person’s return. Such an act was in violation of the Civil Service regulations. Manns’ reply was that his name had been used without his sanction, and he had had it erased from tho requisition. Replying to Mr Weston, The Hon. W. Rollbston said that claims for reward for the discovery of goldfields at Seventy Mile Beach, West Coast, had been disposed of, and unless something now had cropped up ho saw no reason for disturbing the adjustment already made. Replying to Mr Weston, The Hon. T. Dick said that Messrs Giles and Mueller’s report on the chargee preferred by Warden Stratford against Tom Kenrick, late clerk of tho Warden’s Court, Greymouth, had been received, but Government did not consider it advisable to produce it. Replying to Mr Weston, The Hon. T. Dick said that the final report of the judicature commission would not be ready until November, and could not possibly bo dealt with this session. MISCELLANEOUS. The following motions were adopted. Mr Seddon—Letters and telegrams received by tho Government from county councils, local bodies, and persons, relative to tho abolition of gold duty, bo laid before tho House" Mr Qisboenk—A return, showing tho revenue received during the whole aggregate period of the last fifteen years in tho following revenue departments respectively : customs, stamps, post office, railways, and land, also showing tho percentage, cost of collodion of each of those branches of tho revenue during that aggregate period, and further stating tho amount of defalcation in each branch during the whole of that time.

Mr MUEBAY A return showing the amounts paid from March 31at, 1880, to date, to any lawyer or legal firm for any work done for tho Government, whether in court or otherwise.

Mr McbiiAT —For a return showing the coet and incidental expenses of each committee of the House of Rc-presentaliTCß in tho year 1880; a return for the like expenditure

during the present session; and, if possible, to be laid before the House before ths prorogation of Parliament. EEPSBSENTATION BILL. On the motion for going into committee on the Representation Bill, Mr Wood moved as an amendment— (l.) " That in the opinion of this House, the basis of representation should be, as nearly as m»y be practicable, population. (2.) That tho estimate of population for the purpose of representation should consist of Europeans and Maoris combined, and that the Maori Representation Act, 1867, with the continuing Act should bo repealed. The object of the second resolution was to do away with the special representation, and to place the Natives on a footing of equality with Europeans. It had always been admitted that the Natives were not an interior race, and that they were entitled to equal rights with ourselves. In 1867 an Act was passed giving them special representation, the reason given being that the tenure of their lands was complex, and it was to last for five years. It had been renewed from time to time since then, and he contended that the time had now arrived for repealing it altogether. Since tho Act was passed the title to Maori lands had been simplified, and a great many held their land under Crown grant. There were anomalies in their position. For example, if ten of them held a joint interest in a Crown grant for property worth £IOOO they could not exercise the franchise. Their properties required to be individualised, and the Premier told them that it would be time enough to extend tho franchise to the Natives when tho individualisation was effected. He had, however, to remind them that since that policy was enunciated they had liberalised the franchise, and yet, in doing so for themselves, they had restricted tho privileges of their Maori fellow-colonists. If they had equal electoral rights with the Europeans, then there would be no further need for the special representation. In theory, the great principle was one law for both races, and yet in practice tho Government opposed his efforts in that direction. The objection had been made that the Native members formed a block vote. He reminded them that in any question before Parliament Government had only to utter tho magical words, “ A Ministerial question,” and then they had a block vote. It was only within the last few years that the Natives had shown the slightest tendency towards forming a block, and considering the treatment they had received at tho hands of the Government, it was not astonishing. The changes ho proposed would be to greatly extend the political influence of the Natives. There were at present 40,000 of a Native population, and it they went as he oroposed, instead of four, they would have at east six members in the House, and to a very great extent there would be at least other two members who would to a large extent bo identified with the Native interest. It was a perfect reproach that they should have extended the franchise to themselves, and yet restricted it to the Natives.

Mr Swansoh agreed in the opinion that the proposal for equal electoral rights to both races was the right one, and he could not see on what ground the claim could be resisted. The best course that could be followed for breaking up the King movement was to give these refractory Natives votes, and induce them to come to that House and ventilate their grievance. It would not only benefit the Natives, but it would also benefit the Europeans. Hr Taiaeoa agreed with the spirit of the amendment. He was afraid, however, that it would at present be premature to propose it for the Natives. They were naturally suspicious of these sudden changes. What bo suggested was that the point should be allowed to stand over until next session. In the meantime they would have an opportunity for circulating and explaining the proposal for the information and guidance of Native opinion. While to a certain extent agreeing with the amendment, he would for the reason stated vote against it. Mr Tb Wheobo suggested that the experiment should be made of continuing the special representation, so as to enable the Natives to understand the exact bearing of the proposed change. Unless that was done he would vote against any attempt to disturb existing arrangements. The House adjourned at 5.25. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7 30, THE EEPBBSBHTATION BILE. The Hon. J. Haul trusted that they would not adopt the amendment. The first clause was very vague. When the time came that there could be one law for both races he would gladly second the motion for giving the Maoris Increased representation. It they had been left to the operations of the Constitution Act they would have had no voice in the Legislature at all. In giving them the special representation the colony went out of its way to give it to them. There were many laws in operation which proved that they were not on a footing similar to the Europeans. In the matter of fencing, cattle trespass, and in the exercise of the rights of ownership of land they were deferentially dealt with. The argument that it was proposed to tax their properties was only an argument in favor of allowing them representation on the local bodies. It was not the case that there was or could be one law for both races, and consequently it was not right to the European that they should have equal representation. What, in fact, was asked, was that they should be allowed to impose laws on us, which they refused to obey themselves. He saw the dawn of a better state of things, but its consummation was still at a distance. Then again, the Maoris were not willing to give up the special representation, Members told us themselves that they did not quite understand the force of the proposed change. If the special representati >n was done away with, and they wore left to the ordinary operations of one electoral law, he believed their political power would disappear altogether, or else be handed over to the worst class of Europeans. Then again, those who held their property under Crown grant had the right to vote for the European representative. That right ought not to be lost. He believed that the North Island had a great future before it, and when it did become entitled to increased representation by increased population, he declared that no one would be more willing to vote for it than he would be. But he utterly demurred to give it a representation ostensibly for the Maori population, which that population neither wanted nor could make good use of. Mr Tojtoana urged the importance of delaying the question till next session, so as to enable the Native population to acquaint themselves with the proposals made. At present he could not support the amendment. Mr Gisbobnb could only account for the comparative silence observed by Ministers on the subject by the assumption that they were ill at ease in respect of the step they proposed. Ho could not see how it could be otherwise, seeing that those proposals would virtually disfranchise 40,000 of the population. Keferrmg to Westland and Nelson, he said that they had, by the unfair administration of the public works policy, reduced the population of these places, and, having done so, they now proposed to take advantage of their own acts to reduce the representation, The Bill before them did not fulfil the conditions of the Bill promised when Government took office in 1879. He could not agree with the amendment, and when the proper time came he would move as a further amendment to the first clause of it the following :—“ Provided the total number of members at present returned by any provincial district shall not be reduced.” The only way to decrease the number of members was to provide a proper system of local self-government, but until that was done any attempt at reduction was manifestly unfair. He could not agree with the proposal to abolish the special Maori representation, and substitute the ordinary representation. A proposal of that kind demanded more maiurs consideration than could be given to it now. Ho gathered from the Maori members that they themselves were not well disposed towards the change, and that would weigh with them. The Bill generally was likely to produce dangerous revolutionary changes. Mr Moss said that out of 42,000 Natives there was not more than 10,000 amongst whom the Queen’s writ did not run. Government had been conveniently silent on the subject. These 10,000 disaffected Natives would not be on the electoral roll, consequently it would be only the law-abiding members of the race, who would exercise the franchise. He had the moat implicit confidence in the eento of justice which actuated the South Island, but seasons might oomo when they might be carried away by blinded prejudice, and in that case there was no saying what injustice they might not hiready to perpetrate. For tint reason he objected to the North Island being left to am abstract cense of justice. It ought to be placed in a position to assert its own position.

J The Maoris would be enabled to make themselves more fairly felt under the ordinary representation than they can possibly succeed in doing under the special representative system. Mr Lundon spoke in support of the amendment, contending that, in refusing to grant the representation sought by (he Maoris because there was a factious remnant amongst them, Government was doing a gross injustice to the large section by whom the law was observed. Mr Hurst said that the increase of population as between the North end South Islands, as shown by the census returns, did not exceed 4000 ; and that fact, he contended, did not warrant the wide difference in the representation proposed by this Bill. Constituted as they were, a largo Biard of works, property should, he contended, be properly represented in Parliament. A population of thousands might suddenly turn up on a goldfield, and os suddenly disappear, and yet according to the principle of this B 11,I 1 , that force of circumstances was to bo accepted as a ground for representation. Mr Speight said that the Bill was incomplete, as it did not make provision for introducing one law for both racss. It was a mere sham for the Premier to talk about being prepared, when the time arrived, to give additional representation to the Natives, when no provision whatever was made so as to bring about the arrival of that time. Eis purpose apparenty was to allow the special representation to gradually drop down to zsro, and. then amalgamate the two races under one law. This was most unfair. The right of representation was a right inherent in the man himself, independent altogether of circumstances. A great deal of importance had been attached by the Government to the Maori members’ expressed opinion that the special representation should not be abolished. He reminded them however that the same members actually stonewalled the Maori Prisoners Bill, and yet that Bill was now the boast of the Government, The interpretation ho put upon the Maori opinion on the subject was that they felt if representation on a population basis was given to the Europeans this year, they would next session be entitled to demand special Maori representation in proportion to population also; this would give them four more members, but they would never get the claim allowed. In dealing with great principles he quite believed that every part of the colony would be prepare! to do justice to the other, but when questions of public works were concerned a very different state of things was bound to exist. On that ground ho objected to the large preponderance of political power being plaood in the hands of Otago and Canterbury. He would vote for the amendment. Mr Andrews said the Maoris in this debate had simply been made a stalking horse. What was wanted was additional representation for the North Island. Ho thought it was time that the special representation was done away with. He would vote for the amendment. Sir G. Grey contended, in opposition to the Premier, that representation should precede the observance of the law and the payment of taxes. He had no intention of impugning the sense of justice which actuated the South Island, still he protested against inequality of representation to the North. Dr. Wallis objected to make the Maoris a stalking horse for the increase of the North Island representation. The Maori members are best judges of what would be best for them. As they have said, they do not wish the change. He would vote against the amendment. Mr Murray contended that the exclusion of the Chinese in the South and the greater part of the Maoris in the North was unfair. The Maoris were the large land ownee of the colony. They were ten times richer in land than Europeans. Their special representation had not been a success. The presence of their members in the House was an injury to representative government. With such large property rights it was just that they should have a voice in the other Chamber. Again, he contended that they ought to have a representative right in respect of their property qualifications. He did not believe that Canterbury and Otago would be found doing any great wrong to the other parts of the colony. They were constantly told that these provincial districts had got all their railways made, and having succeeded in that they were the more likely to assist other places in securing similar rights. Mr Sheehan said he was one of those who declined to give his assent to the proposition that population should be the sole basis. He denied that the country should be placed on the same basis as the towns. The former, from the scattered nature of its population, required more representation to make its wants known. He deprecated the adverse criticism passed upon the Maori members, alleging that in the four members in the House, they had men who could equal any man or set of men in Parliament. The charge made against them of turning suddenly from one side to another was only what had been practised on many occasions by Europeans. An attempt had been made to treat the goldfields in a way which he denounced as being unfair, simply because the goldfields happened to be depressed at the present time. They had been told that Otago and Canterbury, having got what they wanted, would be the more ready to do justice to others. He declined to come in in that way at second hand. The Noith Island had a right to rank along with the South Island. He was well pleased to see the South prosper ; at the same jtimo he was quite alive to the fact that before long the North would outstrip the other in the march of progress. He controverted the imputation made that the Native members were liable to be unduly influenced. In this matter they had simply observed a wise precaution. What they asked for was to see one right properly established before they consented to abolish another. He would strongly advise the Native members to vote for the amendment. He wasawaro that a great number of members were opposed to the special representation. There was no doubt but the South desired to retain the balance of power, as there could bo no doubt but that the South was jealous of the North to that extent. The fact was that the Maoris contributed more to the revenue than any other class. Government could buy their land at four and five shillings per acre and sell it at once for twice that sum. The profit on the sale of Maori lands simply tided the - colony over its difficulties. The South never made a contribution like that to the colony. He scouted the assertion made that the Maoris were in open revolt. When the representation was at first given to the Maoris the greatest possible impetus was given towards the settlement of the Maori difficulty. It was not peroeptable at first, but time had shown it. The increase of the representation ho contended for would have a still further beneficial influence in that direction. lu fact it would be the means of stamping out all that remained of the Maori diesatisfaclion. For that reason he asked the Government to give the increased representation asked fo-. Although ho confessed ho had little hope of seeing the amendment carried, ho would nevertheless vote for it.

Mr Tubnecxi, denied that bo much profit had been made by the State out of the purchase of Maori lands. It had been o positive loss, instead of having been a gain. He argued that the Natives were perfectly right not to givo up the special representation for what was a mere shadow. Ho would vote against the amendment. Mr Lbvebtam: argusd that the principle of the Bill was that population should be represented, and yet they refused to apply that, principle to the Maori population. It was not a question of principle, it was simply a question of expediency. He would support the amendment.

Mr Qeokgi! contended that in proposing to tax Native lar.de the Government could net in fairness oppose the amendment. Were the Natives tried on the some principle as the Europeans a great step wcnld bo taken to wards obviating the Maori difficulty. Ho was not sure that the amendment would not bo carried. At ell events he would volo for it.

Mr Tolu did not think the country wanted an increase in the number of members. Victoria, with a population of 800,000, was governed with eighty six members, and hc-be-lievcd that if the:y reduced their members, instead of increasing them, legislation would improve, With a complete system of local government they could very well dispensewilh some of the membcis they had at presenh. Mr Seddon contended that to be consistent the Government ought to be prepared to abolish the special representation and allow the Maoris to go in under the ordinary franchise. Mr Coi.uiiCK advocated the right of the Maoris to equal representative rights. At 110 a.m. Mr Weston moved the ad-

journment, which was opposed by Major Atkinson, and lost on the voices. The original motion for going into committee was then put and carried by 40 to 19. Following is the division list : Ayes—Messrs Allwright, Atkinson, Bain, Birron, Beetham, Bowen, Bryce, Bunny, Collins, Fisher, J. (Buller), Fisher, J. T., Hirst, H. (Wallace), Johnston, Levin, Masia, McOaughan, McDonald, McLean, Montgomery, Murray, Oliver, Reid, Ralleston, Saunders, Seymour, Shanks, Bhrimski, Stevens, Studholme, Sution, Taiaroa, Te Wheoro, Thomson, Tomoana, Trimble, Turnbull, Wakefield, Wallis, Whitsbcr. Noes—Messrs Ballance, George, Gif homo, Sir G. Grey, Messrs Harris, Hutchison, lirdy, Levcslam, London, Pitt, Russell. Soditn, Shephard, Swanson, Tele, Weston, Wood. Pairs - F.ir : Messrs Moorhouse, Wright, Jones, Hall, Sir W. Fox, Messrs Stewart, Richardson, Fuller, Micindrew, Da 1 auteur, Finn. Ajainst- Messrs Tawhaic, Hurst, Hamlin, Reeves, Sheehan, Oelheck, Bastings, Andrews, Speight, Ormond, Gibbs. The House went into committee on clause 1. The short title was agreed to, and progress was reported and the House r-se at 1.30.