PARLIAMENTARY.

Globe, Volume XXIII, Issue 2297, 13 August 1881, Page 3

PARLIAMENTARY.

[PBBSS ASSOCIATION TELEGRAM.]

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Fbidat, August 12. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. The Hon. W. H. Reynolds gave notice to move that the members of the Council should fairly represent tho different districts in proportion to representation in the Lower House. Replying to the Hon. P. Buckley, The Hon. F. Whitaker said that tho necessary measures to give effect to the recommendations of the Judicial Commission would be ready shortly. The Timaru Mechanics’ Institute Bill was read a third time, and the Demists Act, 1880, Amendment Bill a second time on the Speaker’s casting vote. The Waitara Harbor Loan Bill was postponed until it is known what tho Lower House will do with the New Plymouth harbor works. The remainder of the sitting was spent in committee on several small Bills, and tho Council rose at 5 p.m.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, August 12. The House met at 2.30 p.m. RETRENCHMENT. Mr Beyce gave notice, on going into committee of supply, to move —“ That while recognising tho retrenchment already effected by the Government, it is desirable, as suggested in the financial statement, that the aggregate amount of the departmental salaries should be further diminished by the reduction and equalisation of salaries, and by the amalgamation of_ offices, and that the Government should during the recess by these means effect a reduction in the expenditure of at least £30,000. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Murray, Tho Hon. T. Dick said that in New Zealand patents granted in other places could be protected by registration. In that respect they were ahead of tho other colonies. At the recent intercolonial Conference the question was discussed with the view of securing one patent law for all the colonies, but in consequence of dissent on the part of a majority of them the proposal was not carried.

Replying to Mr Speight, The Hon. W. Rolleston said_ that Government was aware that the ownership of land in the Thames district was passing from the Natives to speculators, but he could not say it was being done to the prejudice of the mining interest, and they considered it necessary to push on the purchase of certain freeholds from Natives by Government. Replying to Mr Reeves, The Hon. W. Johnston said that as yet no demand had been made for the establishment of a Savings Bank at Brnnnertou, Grey Valley. If the necessity existed Government would be prepared to mnko the necessary arrangements. Replying to Mr Hirst, The Hon. W. Rolleston said that section 30 of the Land Act, 1877, gave the necessary authority to remedy defects in the proposed mode of dealing with re-letting runs in Southland, under which incoming tenants are bound to pay ono year’s rent in advance for land which, being

open for free selection under sale and deferred payments, may be taken up before ho could receive possession of it. Replying to Mr Reeves, The Hou W. Johnston said that the cost of connecting tho lighthouse at Farewell Spit with Collingwood by telephone was so great that Government did not see its way to undertake it at present. Replying to Mr Thomson, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that the recommendation of the Comptroller and AuditorGeneral to include the estimates in tho Appropriation Act would bo brought under consideration of tho public accounts committee, and if they recommended the step it would be given effect to. Replying to Mr George, The Hon. T. Dick stated that the refund was made to ex-Judges Harvey and Weston in conformity with a resolution passed that where officers were dismissed the 10 per cent, should bo repaid. The refund paid Judge Harvey was £2O, and Judge Weston £l9, the latter being paid on 31st July last. It was not the intention of Government to make similar refunds to other public servants simply on their applying for the same. Replying to Mr Taiaroa, The Hon. W. Rolleston said the Native matters in tho Middle Island were under the supervision of Alex. McKay, and that for the translation of documents ample provision would be made by the appointment of licensed interpreters. Replying to Mr Taiaroa, The Hon. W. Rolleston said the Government wonld be prepared to negotiate for seonring a supply of water for domestic use for people residing at Moeraki. Replying to Mr Tomoana, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that Government had not yet determined to impose the same duty on maize as upon other cereals, but if they decided upon doing so the proposals would be brought down in the Tariff Bill, which would be ready next week. Replying to Mr Whitaker, The Hon. J. Hall said that the grounds on which Government gave assent to the introduction of the Timarn Harbor Board Bill were that it contained other besides endowment proposals, and they did not desire to burk discussion on the subject. The flood of Harbor Endowment Bills since introduced was such as to propose to swallow up a very large proportion of the Crown lands, and it was on the ground of policy that they refused to assist to their introduction. new bill. The Patoa Harbor Board Borrowing and Bating Bill was introduced by the Hon, Major Atkinson and read a first time. MISCELLANEOUS. The following Bills were read a second time— Prisons Act, 1873, Amendment and Public Domains Amendment Bill. On the motion for the second reading of Machinery Bill. The Hon. W. Rolleston stated that it was one of a number of consolidation Bills proposed by tho Revision and Consolidation Commission. Mr De Lautour stated that a number of new and important clauses and proposals were introduced. The motion for tho second reading was carried. The Friendly Societies and Parliamentary Privileges Bills, from the same Commission, were also read a second time. The Public Reserves and East Coast Lands Bills passed through committee, and the former was read a third time and passed. The House adjourned.at 5.30. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7 30. Tho Council’s reasons for disagreeing to the amendments of the House in the Gaming and Lotteries Bill were ordered to be considered on Monday. representation bill.

Tho Hon. J. Hall moved the second reading of the Representation Bill. It was the last of a series of electoral reforms effected during the present Parliament. He said that each branch of these reforms had been passed through Parliament separately, and by that means each branch had been kept separate, and only had its own particular difficulties to contend against. He enumerated the various matters of this class which had been passed. The present Bill had been rendered necessary by the progress of tho celony in population. He hoped some day to see what was known as Hare’s system in operation in this colony, but at present it would be premature to attempt that system, as it was in advance of public opinion. Tho Bill dealt first with the number of representatives and second with the distribution of the representation. Regarding about the first a wide difference of opinion existed. The basis they should go upon was to make the House suit the constituencies and not the constituencies the House, and having done so then to regulate the number accordingly. The danger of a small House was that it gave individual votes too much importance. Then again, too large a House meant a waste of time and money, and too large a House in proportion to tho population meant also that they were almost bound to have an inferior class of men. He believed that New Zealand could well afford to provide a hundred good men and true for representative purposes. The number proposed under this Bill was 91. He quoted figures to show that the proposed increase still left the representation even less in proportion to popu lation than it had previously been. In 1857 the population of tho colony was 32,000, and they had 37 members, which gave one member to every 870 of tho population. In 18G0 tho population was 83,000, and the number of members 53, or one to every 1508 of population. In 1865 the population was 200,000, and the members 70, or one for every 3300 of population. In 1875 the population was 375,000, with 81, or one in 4100 of the population. At present tho population was 400,000, and the proportion was 91 members, being one to every 5400 of the population. Population, he argued, was the only true basis for representation, subje t however to certain modifying considerations. The first principle in the distribution of Ministers therefore was population. He then enumerated the various provincial districts, as also the population and number of members proposed for each. In the North they had the Maori population, and in the South Island the Chinese, who were not included in the calculation of population. The Chinese had no claim to representation, they were aliens, and otherwise not entitled to be included. About the Maori population different opinions existed. The condition of that race was so exceptional that it was necessary that their representation should be on a different basis. A large proportion did not acknowledge our laws, and the remainder did not pay taxes to the extent of Europeans. As long as they did not obey our laws or pay taxes they had no right

to representation. Of course it was said that it was proposed to make them liable for taxation. When that was accomplished it would be a plea for giving them representation upon the local bodies, but not in that House, on the same basis at all events ns the European population. This was a great political lesson to the Maoris themselves, inasmuch as it showed them that until they paid their full share of the taxes they could not expect or get their full share of the representation. He admitted that they might be entitled to additional special representation,_ but that could only be given to them upon the basis on which their present special representation was given. He admitted that the Maori represents, tion, as between the North and South Island Maoris, was not fairlyladjusted. It was propesed that the population of a country district should be less than the town district quota by about 25 per cent. Ho next dealt with the question of dividing the districts into single electorates. He spoke in favor of small single electorates, because is saved a candidate a great deal of time and money, and by that means it gave the electors a wider choice of candidates. They had had considerable difficulty in framing districts comprising the requisite population, as also preserving something like a community of interest in the electorate. He read a long memorandum, showing how the districts had been arranged. He claimed that the Bill was a fair and just one, and hoped no mere local considerations would be allowed to mar its progress. He moved the second reading. Mr Gisbobne moved, as an amendment—(l) “ That the basis of population alone in the distribution of representation is not suitable to the requirements of the colony. (2.) That the principle of dividing the whole colony into single electoral districts is unsatisfactory.” He said that the amendment was in no way of a party character, nor yet did it owe its origin to a party movement. If they were to take population as a hard and fast rule then it would be their duty to make the whole colony one electorate. Unless a wide divergence was admitted from the absolute rule of population being the basis, then great injustice would be done. He quoted from statistics of England to show that ir population were to bo adhered to as a rule, the representation of that country would, practically speaking, be thrown into the hands of seven large cities in England. However, things besides population were taken into account, a higher class of education was represented for instance. What he insisted on was that they were bound to give heed to special claims for representation. They ought to consider the situation of population, its character, and productive power, and other peculiarities. Ho quoted figures to prove that tho number in the colony, as compared with the neighboring colonies, was not too large. Here the geographical position of the colony compelled them to transact in three months the same amount of business which would occupy in the other colonies six or perhaps eight months. He mentioned that fact to prove that the representation of this colony was quite different from that of the other colonies. Population was not under all circumstances a sound basis; for example, in Taranaki they had had for a considerable time a body of Constabulary. These men could not fairly be included as population in apportioning representation, and yet these 300 men were counted in determining the representation to which Taranaki was entitled. If Nelson wished to retain its representation it would have to get up an insurrection which would require a large fores to be sent to quell it. The goldfields population was of an exceptional character, such as tbs Legislature ought to take into special consideration in adjusting the representation. The adult male population •on these fields largely predominated. Adult males were in ninety-nine cases out of the hundred the sole taxpayers, and as such they deserved an exceptionally large share of the representation. Then again, the industry and productive powers of the country ought to be estimated. He quoted the export returns to prove that daring the last fifteen years Otago had produced the largest amount of wealth, Canterbury next, the West Coast of the Middle Island being next. He strongly condemned the system of single electorates ns unjust to minorities. What was wanted was an elastic system of representation to adjust itself to the varying circumstances of the colony. Sir G Grey argued that the population of Great Britain had never been fairly represented ; that the effort to provide a representation in proportion to population in this colony would avert many of the ills under which New Zealand suffered. These satisfactory feelings, however, were greatly modified when he reflected that there was another chamber, which did not represent the people in any sense of the word, which could neutralise their endeavors. _ What they should contend for was their right to determine their own constitution and form of Government. Great Britain had do knowledge of this country or the character of its inhabitants. That was a liberty afforded every slate in the United States, and he believed that Great Britain would cheerfully give them the right, if asked, for pursuing this want of representation farther. He asked what did they find in this colony? Men were put to work on railways, and they were paid ont of borrowed money. Who was to pay that borrowed money but these men themselves. Thus they wasted their lives and their energies, not for the enrichment of themselves, but for the enrichment of men who had obtained large landed properties. He attached little consequence to this Bill. He would much rather see them all join a grand struggle to obtain the right to frame their own constitution, and, having gained that right, frame their laws in such a way that it would not be possible for these laws and reforms to bo thrown out by a mere nominated body. The mass of the population not knowing this state of matters were indifferent as to who occupied these seats, feeling that they did very little for them, whereas the fact was that their efforts and endeavors for good were stultified by the other Chamber. At the forthcoming olectien he believed many good men would loose their a;ats unjustly from this very cause. For his own part he was hopeless of doing any good from this very causa. Respecting the Bill before them ha would support it without spirit, looking upon it merely as a step in tho right direction begun at the wrong end. Sir W. Fox conld recollect tho time when the people of Now Zealand were arranged on one side and the previous speaker on the other, struggling to obtain the smallest particle of political liberty, and yet they could not, through the action of the member for the Thames. When he had it in his power to grant them constitutional liberty he refused to give it to them, despite the patriotic declamation he was now indulging in on the subject. Then again, when be came into power as the leader of that House, with a willing and subservient majority at his back, what did he do towards securing that political liberty he now, as he did then, so loudly advocated. Ho now complained of the Upper House having obstructed good legislation, but what did he do when a measure for reform was actually passed by both Houses—because it did not happen to please his views on one point he tore it up and threw it into the waste paper basket. Ho conld not give Sir Q. Grey that credit for sincerity which would enable him to listen with patience or satisfaction to his remarks, as so very many appeared to do. He desired that the extension of the franchise would bring about tho great social changes depicted by the previous speaker. Their money and habits were not the result cf want of Parliamentary representation. They had the framework of a good democratic constitution. The mistake made however was to attempt to effect tho great social and political reform at one hound. Sir G. Grey was not content to go on step by step, in the firm knowledge and belief that they would eventually come to something. That was the great mistake he made. If ho would set about effecting a change hero and a change there, and developing a resource and establishing an industry, he would effect far more real goodjthan by putting a ballot paper into the hands of the most obscure member of tho community. What they wanted for their government was not an endless string of clever maxims. What was wanted was government by a few plain common sense men of business. He thought the Bill was in the right direction. The single electorates went in the right direction, and tended to localise representation more than it could be under the existing system. The Bill, as a whole, would be a step in the right direction.

Mr Sheehan charged the preceding speaker •with political inconsistency, in having bofn returned to support provincialism, whereas, on his accession to power, ho was instrumental to subverting that system. They had had some bad men who had changed sides time after time in the course of a few years, and Sir W. Fox was one of these. Ee traced in connection with the various Governments of the colony from the year 1809, showing that while ho had been instrumental in bringing about the abolition of provinces, he had gone home within a year afterwards and wrote a letter to the “ Times ” holding np the step in an adverse light. The Bill before the House was Sir G. Grey’s, and his party’s Bill, and but for him and that party they never wonid have had the means now put before them. He denied that the people had lost confidence in Sir G. Grey, and he warned them that the forthcoming elections would prove that fact. The colony recognised in Sir G. Grey a man who had the benefit of reputation on his side, and it was the greatest folly on earth for Sir W. Fox to think about wiping him out. He could not see his way at present to support the Bill. They had at present a taxable population in the North Island of 45,000 Maoris who were excluded from the basis proposed by the Bill. On a population basis the North Island ought to have at least six more members. The Thames district, represented by him, instead of getting three members, had a portion of the district hitched on to another having no sympathy or interest in common. The effect of the present proposal ns between the North and Booth Islands would be—and that not remotely—the separation of tho two islands. He would repeat that the Bill, whatever its principles were with the merits it could claim, wasi

ihmat on this Government by the late Government. He denied the statement that a portion of the Maori population was in open defiance to the laws of the country. He would not support the Bill.

Mr Collins intimated his intention of voting against the Bill. He denied that it was asked for by the colony as a whole, though he admitted that a few political diggers had asked for something of the kind. Mr Huesthousb also intimated his intention of voting against the Bill. The proposals of which he complained were moat unfair to Nelson. He denounced the principle of the Bill, giving it as his opinion that the people of the colony wonld never be properly represented by it. One of the first objects of representation was to render the people of the colony happy and contented, and this Bill wonld render the people of Nelson the very reverse of that. Ho agreed with the previous speaker in thinking that the Bill was not seriously demanded. The balance of power was thrown into the hands of the towns, and he had to remind them that the bulk of the enterprise and reproductive energy centred in the country districts. He would vote against the motion, and, if carried, he would afterwards have some small amendments to propose. Mr Moss also spoke against the Bill. Ho sympathised with the previous speaker, and told the House that the Bill, if carried, would be placed in an equally unfortunate position. Ho asked these districts to recognise tte necessity for getting more of the administration into their own hands. As a locality he argued that they looked far too much for their guidance to tho Home country, whereas he counselled them to be gnided by the precedent furnished by countries analogous to our own. He felt it was a very large question and now that the House was worn out with its late sittings he wonld prefer seeing the debate adjourned, so as to be more carefully considered when they wero more able to do so. Mr Huest also strongly condemned the Bill as most unjust to Auckland and the North generally, which had a'ready suffered sufficiently from Southern rule.

Mr Gibbs moved tho adjournment of the debate till Monday, The Eonse rose at 1.5 a.m.