GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXIII, Issue 2277, 20 July 1881, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[PHB33 ASSOCIATION TBLEQBAM.]

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, July 19. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. On the Hon. Captain Fkasbb’B motion, the Standing Orders re Private Bills were suspended to allow the passing of the Port Chalmers Cemetery Bill. On the Hon. Colonel Bbbtt’s motion, a return was ordered of all appointments to the •ivU service since last session.

bobp—— uni | Trif - The Regulation of Elections Bill was rea a first time, „ . The Otago University Reserves "V e it in Bill was thrown out on the motion ci . Dr. Poum by 13 to 10. The following is the division list:— For the Bill—Hons, Baillie, Fraser, Holmes, O. Johnson, Menzies, Miller, Reynolds, Robinson, Scotland, Whitaker, Wood. Against—Hons, Brett, P. Buckley, Chamberlain, Dig nan, Hart, Lahmann, Mantel!, Martin, Nurse, Peacock, Pollen, Williamson, Wilson. The Volunteers, Lunatics, and Fisheries Bill were read a second time without debate. The Affirmation in Lien of Oaths Extension Bill was thrown out, on the motion of Hon. Dr. Pollen by 14 votes to 12. The following is the division list For the Bill—Hons. Baillie, Brett, P. Buckley, Dignan, Fraser, Lahmann, Martin, Peacock, Reynolds, Scotland, Whitaker, Wilson. Against—Hon. Chamberlain, Grace, Hart, Holmes, G. Johnson, Mantell, Menzies, Millar, Nurse, Peter, Pollen, Robinson, Williamson, Wood. The Banks and Bankers Act was recommitted, and on amendment carried by 13 to 9, “ That any person defacing a bank note should not bo able to pass it." The Council rose at 5 p.m.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, July 19. The House met at 2.30 p.m. NOTICES OP MOTION. Mr Reeves gave notice that he would move that it is desirable that Resident Magistrates and Wardens on goldfields be removed every three years ; also that an export duty be imposed on wool. Mr Mubbay gave notice to move, in view of the plentiful supply and cheapness of monev that it is advisable that railway works should be pushed on without delay, QUESTIONS, Replying to Mr Sutton, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that two lighthouse keepers were employed at Napier, one permanently and the other casually. The permanent man bad the usual allowance made for house rent; the other had been paid for his services at a rate in excess of ordinary, and Government considered the excess equivalent to the allowance for house rent. Replying to Mr Turnbull, The Hon. T. Dick said that Government had not yet considered the report sent in by tho Inspector of Prisons, and were not yet prepared to say what would be done regarding its recommendations to abolish schools in different prisons, to weigh prisoners periodically in order to test whether they are losing or gaining flesh, to alter the present dietary scale so as to check any propensity on the part of prisoners to increase in weight, the appointment of a Medical Board to decide upon a dietary scale, and that gaolers be permitted to punish prisoners without the consent of visiting justices. Replying to Mr Gisborne, The Hon. J. Hall said that the population located at southern ports on the West Coast of the Middle Island was too small to warrant a subsidy being paid for a mail steamer to call periodically. The Stella would continue to make quarterly visits to those localities, and oftener if she could spare time. Replying to Mr J. B. Fisher, The Hon. J. Hall said that Government had received the report of the engineer upon tho survey of a track between Lyell and Mokihonui township. It proposed to make the track twenty-three miles long at a cost of £7500, through a tract of country almost wholly uninhabited. He could make no promise that the work would be done. NEW BILLS. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time;—Maori Committee Empowering (Mr Tomoana) ; Land Act, 1887, Amendment, East Coast Land District (Mr Rolleston) ; Harbors Act, 1878, Amendment (No. 2), (Mr Wright.) MB SHBHHAN’S BILL. Mr Sheehan, before moving the introduction of a Bill to repeal the Abolition of Provinces Aot of 1875, asked the Government to state what course they intended pursuing in the matter. All manner of rumors on the subject had been in circulation about tho lobbies. Tho Hon. J. Hall said that the motion was one which raised a vital question of policy, and it was desirable that as little business as possible should be gone on with until it was brought to an issue. Government would not object to the Bill being introduced and read a first time, as proposed, :but in order that it should be disposed of with as little delay as possible, they proposed to oppose the motion to fix a date for the second reading, and to take the debate on that question that evening at 7.30.

Mr Sheehan said that he had brought in the Bill entirely on his own responsibility, but if those with whom he usually acted were opposed to taking the debate that night, he would not be prepared to go on. Mr Macandbew demurred to the Govern ment accepting the motion as a vote of want of confidence. The Government was not responsible for abolition having been carried, Mr Beown moved that it’bo postponed nntil that day six months.

Mr Gisbobne said that Government had Bills on the paper that would raise the whole question of local government, and it was not necessary to push it on this issue. This was simply an attempt to draw a red herring over the track. He contended that this Bill should not be taken out of the ordinary course.

Mr Sheehan said that in that case he would not ask leave to introduce the Bill.

The Hon. J. Hall said that it was arranged to take the debate that evening, and the attempt to retreat from the position in the way proposed was most unfair. He moved the adjournment of the House pro forma. Mr Sheehan said that the proposal of Sir G. Grey re local government was quite as radical as bis proposal, and be challenged the Government to accept that as a vote of want of confidence. Alluding to the reference made about an arrangement, be eaid that he had only answered to the Premier for himself when he assented to taking the debate that evening. Ho and I w friends had no desire to see the business interrupted, and furthermore he desired to see an exhaustive debate on the subject. Ho would, therefore, withdraw the motion for leave to introduce the Bill. If Sir G. Grey’s Bill did not achieve theipurpose aimed at, then most assuredly he would take steps to have the House divided on the point. Mr Montgomery would have preferred that the debate had gone on, and the question been settled at once. It was not a motion put forward bylthe Opposition’s authority. He would vote against it, and he knew of others of the party who were prepared to follow the same course.

Mr Moss blamed the Government for the position it had taken up in the circumstances. The Government had invited them to assist in bringing down some good scheme for local Government, and ho regretted tbe course Government had pursued on that invitation having been responded to. Mr Shbphabd blamed the Government for not treating the matter as a mere ordinary motion, and not one clothed with all the significance of a party question. Its true character in that respect had boon disclosed at once by the mover, and he ventured to say that had it gone to a division ho believed that the Government would have found a large majority of the Opposition going into the same lobby with them, Mr Hutchison said that so far as ho understood, the object was to divide the House so as to ascertain who remained provincialists, and who wore still staunch to abolition. He wished to give no uncertain sound on the point. Ho considered that the motion was a great mistake. He stigmatised provincialism in Wellington as a most vicious system, and he objected to any return to it in any form whatever, either as a modified system or otherwise. Whether it were regarded as a vote of confidence or not, ho for cine would not hesitate to vote against the Bill.

Mr Collins argued that Mr Sheehan’s action was unfair in bringing forward a matter of so much importance without having it argued out. Ho certainly would vote against any motion of the kind, as ho hardly thought it was possible to return to provincialism.

Mr Sheehan said he was known to be a provincialist to the core, and the previous speaker had no right to blame him for bringing forward a motion in accordance with his belief in the subject. He could assure him that within the next few days he would give him an opportunity for recording his protest against any return to provincialism. Mr Macandbew objected to any question of provincialism being discussed in the present aspect of the question, and on his suggestion the motion for adjournment was with-

drawn, and the business ot the Order Pape proceeded with. licensing bill. The Hon. T. Dice moved that tho repor on the Bill be agreed to. Mr Ltjndon took exception to the Billi: respect of no provision being made for com I publicans from whom the license: m’ght be withdrawn under the operations o! i/ba Act. id\ Shddojt also objected to the Bill, oxprea»in t t a hope that the permissive clause! would b 9 thrown out by the Council. He blamed tlu l Government for not having stuck more firmly to the text of their Bill. Tha Bill wa s then reported. The Hon. T, Dick moved that it be read a third time. Mr MacahdkeTW moved aa an amendment — “That no Licensing Bill will be suitable to tho requirements of every part of the colon;, unless there bo reserved to each provi id district a right to determine tho nstare ol he licenses and the fees payable thorel c within the district.” On the suggestion of Mr Hutchiso Macandrew agreed to substitute county councils and boroughs instead of provincial districts. The House divided on the motion for the third reading—Ayes, 3S 5 Noes, 26. Tho following is tho division list: — Ayes—Messrs Allwright, Andrews, Atkinson, Ballance, Beetham, Colbeck, Coffins, Dick, Fisher, J. B. (Buffer), Sir W. Fox, Messrs Fulton, George, Gibbs, Hall, Hirst, H. (Wallace), Hursthouse, Johnston, Kenny, Levestam, Levin, Mason, McLoan, Montgomery, Murray, Oliver, Pitt, Richardson, Eolleston, Russell, Saunders, Seymour, Shephard, Shrimski, Speight, Stevens, Studholme, Sutton, Swanson, Te Wheoro, Thomson, Wakefield, Wallis, Whitaker, Whyte, Wood, Wright. Noes—Messrs Barron, Bastings, Brandon, Brown, DeLautour, Fisher, J. T. (Heathcote), Gisborne, Sir G. Grey, Messrs Hamlin, Harris, Hutchison, Lundon, Macandrew, McDonald, Moss, Reeves, Reid, Seddon, Sheehan, Stuart, Tawhai, Tole, Turnbull, Weston. The Biff was read a third time, and passed. SECOND HEADINGS.

On the motion of the Hon. J. Hall, the Public Works Biff was read a second time. Mr Sutton renewed tho debate on the second reading of the Crown and Native Lands Bating Bill. He thought that the public service would rover be made really effective or economical until the present system of keeping public accounts was altered. There was too much departmentalism, too much consideration for departmental interest, to the neglect of the interest of the colony and the service as a whole. Ho thought the 10 per cent, reduction had been too rigidly applied, although he admitted the earnestness with which the Government had successfully devoted themselves to the moat unpopular task. Instead ot reducing the property tax he would have liked to have seen the exemption repealed, and every man contribute his share, whether large or small; but amounts under £1 should not be collected. If the remission of taxation were possible he would rather see it in some other direction, by the remission of some indirect rather than di-eot taxation. With the proposal to relievo capi* al, while allowing local bodies increased rating powers, he did not agree. He approved of the proposal to rate Native and Crown lands, but he objected to the values fixed. All land by whomever owned, should be made equally liable for local works. He did not see how the proposed plan would work in regard to Native lands, which were never likely to be sold. Would the Government keep on paying tor these P The Natives should be made pay rates for their lands like other people. Generally the proposals of the Bill would place local bodies iu a position to discharge their functions. They should be made as independent as possible of Government interfer. ence. One omission seemed apparent in the Bill. No provision was made for the maintenance of main roads. With moat of the proposals of the financial statement he agreed, especially the issue of debentures iu the colony. He had not heard from the other side any proposals to really improve tho present system of local self-government, but before the session closed bo hoped some really good measure would be proposed, which, while imposing on localities the duty of raising most of the funds, would enable them to expend them to the best advantage, and carry out their important functions in a manner to the benefit of the country. On the motion of Mr Tomoana, the debate was adjourned till the evening. The House adjourned at 5.30. EVENING SITTING. Tho House resumed at 7-30. CBOWN AND NATIVE LANDS XATING BILL. Mr Saundees resumed the debate on the second reading ot the Crown and Native Lands Rating Bill. He referred to tho Treasurer's speech as being highly unsatisfactory. It proposed nothing, did nothing, and said nothing, and he did cot believe that two members of the Government were agreed as to what local government should be. He had never changed his opinion on the subject. It was to give districts as much power as possible, and to take the same out of the hands of the central power. The Treasurer was purely a Wellington man in his associations, and if he went about the colony a little more he would find that a strong feeling existed in favor of decentralisation. The effect of the Bill would be to take from districts in which money could be profitably spent, what money they had, and to spend it on land in the midst of uninhabited localities —in the wilderness. As a representative of Kaikoura, the proposals of the Bill would be good, but as representing tho whole colony, ho could not look upon them as otherwise than vicious. Tho Treasurer said that some idea appeared to be abroad that they could raise money by some kind of jugglery, and yet this Bill simply proposed to propagate the delusion. There were millions of acres of land in tho colony that were not worth one farthing an acre, and yet they were proposed to be rated at 6s 8d per acre. The great mistake was that they had ranged too far, and induced tho settlement of isolated patches in districts wholly separated from tho bulk of the population. What they should have done was to keep the population as much together as possible, and allow it to radiate as necessity arose. This Biff was calculated to aggravate this description of evil. Regarding Native lands, so far as it applied to land in boroughs, &c., it was all right, but when it was proposed practically to confiscate tho Native territory the Bill became wholly unjust. It proposed to take a certain amount of the land annually away and spend the proceeds in a manner which gave the Natives no voice. Ha believed that some districts would profit for a few years and get largo sums of money to spend. Taranaki was one of those districts. After that they would be told that it was considered impolitic to levy this rate or collect the arrears, and the amount advanced would be made a part of the national debt. Regarding local government, he had to tell the Government that ho had no idea they were going to get money in any other than the usual way. When they were told that tho provinces were to be abolished, they were given to understand that they wore going to get something great in their place. Now, what had they got but another sort of Road Boards alongside of those Boards then in existence. The idea was that they required some body with mare power than tha Road Boards. He thought that tho Treasurer had boon so long in office, that he had come to ths conclusion that the people of Now Zealand wore of opinion that ho should have sole power, and that the smallest possible portion of that power should be parted with to the districts. Before abolition, there was in each province a superintendent, who was responsible to tho people, and that was a greater advantage to the people than they were over aware of. Ho did not propose that they should re-establish provincialism as it was before ; but they might improve on it. He was disappointed with Sir Q. Grey’s Local Government Bill. It’ financial proposals were weak. After this House had taken what it wanted, very little would bo left for the districts. He believed that a modified provincialism would save over and over again their expense, and a great saving would have been effected had they never been swept away. Amongst other evils connected with provincialism wkb their law making power. He would establish executive bodies, but would give them no power of law making. Then again provincialism allowed the selfish to manipulate tho land laws of their particular districts. These were some of the great evils that they had to guard against in any system of local government they might adopt. Provincialism had been complained against from tho extent to which it gave rise to logrolling in that House, but he contended that logrolling was as rampant as ever amongst them. Ho believed they could secure all the advantages of provin. cialism in their local governing system, without the disadvantages. Ho would divide each

■ island into four provinces, with a superintendent and six councillors elected by the province, each elector exercising only one vote; and he would give a vote to every man and woman. He thought perhaps the provinces should be divided into six sub-districts, each district returning a member. Then he would have three members elected by the combined vote of the Road Boards. That would make in all nine members. He would multiply the Road Boards, as they were most inexpensive bodies. Instead of a number of small rates he would collect what they wanted at once by a tax imposed by that House, and would leave most of it to the Road Beards to expend. He would double the property tax, and leave at least two-thirds of it with the Rood Boards of the districts it was raised on. That would pot an end to the scrambling for money in that House. He would also put a tax on unimproved land which was capable of cultivation. TJnimpr ivab’e iard ne would exempt, but improvable land ho would not allow to be held by anyone for purely speculative purposes. That tax he would devote nut to the Road Board?, hut leave ir, in the hands of the Superintendent and .Executive for work® outaido tha jurisdiction of the Road Boards. His great aim was to take the distribution of money out of the hands of that House. The one great evil of that House was that they were called to distribute that which ought never to come to the House, thereby losing the respect both of themselves and the country. Mr Obmond said that his remarks would follow aomewhat in the course of the previous speaker. The Government had invited them to debate the whole of their p* ■'uosale. Ho would confine his remarks to It ’ government and local finance. He sketci *d tho progress of events which had led up to the present debate on local government, and blamed the Government for not having brought down the whole of the proposed Bills on the question. He also regretted that they had not the public works statement before them. The question ef railway reform was one largely mixed np with the question of local government, and the people would have railway reform. The Premier invited them to discuss the alternative proposals by Sir G. Grey. He agreed that tho Government onght to lead the House on a question of that nature, and be for one was not going to bo led away by a side issue of that kind. Ho was obliged to say that he wag unable to see anything satisfactory in the Government proposals. Their proposal* would only strengthen and stereotype the present unsatisfactory state of matters, and he did not wish to see that done. He had, therefore, decided that it was his duty to move an amendment to tho Government proposals. It would be to the effect that the proposals of the Government on the question of local government and finance were unsatisfactory. He knew very well what a motion of that kind meant. He was taking this course with the assent of a number of gentlemen who, like himself, had desired to aupp.rt the Government, but who were unable to accept these proposals. Of course they knew that, as this was a moribund Parliament, tha carrying of a motion of this kind would not affect the position of the Government until they had appealed to the country, therefore the usual responsibility of such a motion would not devolve upon him. Ho oonld not, in justice to himself, take any other course than the one proposed, much as he regretted having to oppose his former colleagues and friends. But he felt it his duty to do this, as their proposals were, he believed, fraught with disaster to the colony. They had been in 'session a long time now, and yet several of the most important Government measures were not yet before them. They bad not yet had the Redistribution of Seats Bill. That was a measure which ought to have been brought down at the very beginning of the session. They should have been engaged considering measures of that kind, instead of merely filling up time as they had been doing. The real cause of this state of things was that tha Government could not make up its mind as to what was wanted to be done. They had seen this last session, and it had been even more largely displayed this session. The present system of local government, the coexistence of County and Road Boards, was s wrong system. If they had a proper system of finance, and would enable the Road Boards to develops into shires, then they would be able enough to perform all tho necessary functions without the County Councils at all. If he could not get his own views carried, he would rather be inclined to go further, and meet the views advanced by others than continue things as they were. The Treasurer had given them a list of measures which it would be impossible to place in the hands of the local bodies. He had gone over them, and ho differed from the Treasurer, believing that many of them could locally administered. Then, again, when it was complained that the doing away with Provincialism had swept away an important means for redress" tho Treasurer told them that the House was the place for the redress of grievances. Now what were the facts of the case. They had certain committees, and what was more common than for those committees to report on petitions that they had no recommendation to make. That showed that this was not a suitable tribunal for the redress of grievances. He believed that the people looked back with regret to the days when they could state their grievances to a local body, and if not obtain redress from them at least obtain it through them. Then they had been told that the Waste Lauds administration was to bo remodelled, and its administration centred in Wellington, That was a kind of decentralisation which he could not understand. Whatever became of tho Government proposals, ho hoped the House would not consent to allow the Waste Lands administration to come to Wellington. It was one of the functions which above all should devolve on local bodies. He ridiculed the idea of Road Boards absorbing counties. Regarding the Bill before the House its principle was that all lands should be rated. In the case of Native lands that would to a great extent amount simply to confiscation. In this Bill, as in all their others, there was a centralising tendency. The valuation was to be made by an official from Wellington. Then as regards the Roads Construction Bill, the terms upon which the money was to bo lent wore extremely favorable. If it became law tho Board would be at once rushed. They had been told that the scheme was capable of expansion to any extent. He would like to have more information on that point, as he thought it was most incomplete in its present shape. He criticised the provisions of tho Bill to show that the one clause was inconsistent with tho other ns regards tho constitution of tho Board. To his mind tho whole of those proposals were of a most indefinite character; they had no finality. Then again as to the proposal to devote £150,000, extending over three years, for the pnrposa of opening Crown lands, the proposal was to charge the making of these roads on the land. That simply meant stopping the progress of settlement, in the North Island ot all events. Then again, how were the deferred poyment lands to be dealt with ? Nothing whatever was said about how they were to bo treated in this respect. Altogether it appeared to him that these proposals were not proposals at all. They did not propose to give local government, but were of a highly centralising tendency. The finance was equally unsatisfactory. The colony could not afford to pass such a scheme of finance. For these reasons ho moved, “That the proposals of the Government in respect to local government and finance are unsatisfactory."

The Hon. W. Johnston said that the reasons given were entirely out of accord with tho motion itself. Ha contended that the lost speaker had shadowed out nothing in tho shape of a complete scheme of local government. Ha defended the Government against the charge of having done nothing, stating that during the present session they had only had twelve days for transacting Government business. In all psrts of the colony abolition had met with universal acceptance, therefore the statement that Provincialism was looked back to with regret was wholly without foundation. Sir G. Grey’s Bill set forth provincialism in its very worst form. Centres of population were to be endowed with the waste lands of tho Crown, which simply meant that there was to bo nothing given to tho more remote districts. When ho heard one member prescribe one cure for the disease, and another prescribe another cure, then he could not help thinking that there was no disease at all. Ths statement that their proposal for opening up Crown lands by putting a corresponding price on the upset price of the land would stop settlement in the North Island was completely refuted by what hod actually boen their experience in that respect. Tho fact was, that unless their waste lands were opened up in that way they could not bo sold at all. The principle of their proposed Public Works Board was no new principle. It had been in operation for

ft long time in Great Britain, where it had operated most satisfactorily. The objection that the fund provided for the local Public Works Board would bo too small would be met iu this way ; the various applications would bo restricted to a specified amount each year for each local body, sufficient to allow them all to participate. That was the course followed by Great Britain under a similar system. He would like to know what colonising powers the provinces possessed before abolition. Ho instanced the cue of Wellington. The outlying districts were perfectly paralysed, and had net abolition taken place the inhabitants must have left these settlements altogether. If they went to the country he asked what scheme of local government they would go upon. Mr Ormond had proposed nothing. He concluded by saying that the proposals would do more to advance their colonisation scheme than anything that had yet been heard of in the House.

Mr WHITAKBE wanted to know what was wanted to be achieved. Suppose the amendment was carried, the state of matters would be no better than it was at present. Sir G. Grey would not waive his scheme in favor of the scheme to bo brought down by the mover of the amendment. He had no doubt, after what Mr Ormond stated lost session, that this would be the outcome. What Mr Ormond wanted was not local government, but the repeal of the property tax, a tax which bore on himself rather heavily. He had not informed the House how ho proposed to raise funds for local government purposes. Then again Mr Saunders had told them he proposed to double the property tax, whereas Mr Ormond had already said that the tax as it stood was a grinding tax. How then could Mr Saunders follow him into the lobby. The speech delivered by Mr Ormond was one of the most selfish evar delivered in that House. He had proposed to sell the Crown lands to get quit of the grinding taxationof the property tax. There was no fresh taxation proposed, so that it must have been the property tax to which he referred. Then, again, ho proposed to sell the railways. In fact, he would rather have seen anything than this property tax, which touched him and his friends so heavily. He did not now propose the sale of the Crown lands aad the sale of railways, because the finance of the country had been brought into a satisfactory state by the Government, consequently his plea for those sales had gone. Nothing daunted, however, he desired to see the Government ousted, and with that view he now made bis plea for local government. He would rather meet an honest opposition than the false friend that Mr Ormond had proved to the Government. He further quoted from Mr Ormond’s speech last session, to show that Mr Ormond was then in favor of taxing Crown lands. Such being the case, the opposition he now showed to the Bill before the House was in direct opposition to bis sentiments on that occasion. Ho quoted further from his speech, to show that the Government proposals were otherwise in unison with Mr Ormond’s expressed views last session. Mr Saunders had been again before them in his old character of a heavy father. The fact was, that with one or two exceptions all the counties had brought the whole Act into force. That of itself was evidence to his mind that the oormties system was acceptable to the colony as a whole. They were not bound to bring the Act into operation, and having done so of their own free will was evidence that they were satisfied with it. Tears ago Sir J. Vogel had told them that provincial caucuses had cost the country a million and a half of money. He had been told that these caucuses existed now, bat he denied that they existed in the force and effect they had done. Abolition had modified these evils to a very great extent, and he was hopeful that eventually they would disappear altogether. If the provinces once got superintendents and executive powers, they would soon get the legislation also, so that all the worse evils of provincialism would again be produced. The whole thing resolved itself into a question of provincialism and centralism. That was the real issue, and he for one would strongly oppose any step towards a return to provincialism. The part of the country he came from had suffered great injury from provincialism, and he was sore that the people of the colony did not desire it. He was sure that they were content with what they had. All they wanted was finance. Give them that and they would be quite contented with the institutions they had.

Colonel Xmitßiß reviewed the proposals of the Bill in connection with the Native lands rating. These lands were intersected by roads, and he asked who was to pay for these roads ? Was it the proprietors at both ends ? Certainly not. Those lands were largely benefited by these roads, and of course they should be made to pay for that benefit. The Bill simply acknowledged the principle affirmed by that House over and over again, that the lands benefited by roads shonld be mode to pay for their maintenance. It was absnrd to say that these lands would be eaten up by the tax. The tax could not exceed 2s per acre. Where then could the confiscation come in ? Mr Ormond could not have thought of the Bill, otherwise he never could have made snob an unfounded statement. He next referred to the Roads Construction Bill. It tad been asserted that there were no means proposed for providing finance. The fact was that this Bill did provide the means. It might be clumsy, and' the means proposed open to criticism, bnt it was not jnst to say that it did not propose any means. Then, as to the constitution of the body which was to be entrusted to distribute the funds, he gave his preference to the mode of constitution proposed by the Bill of last year. Regarding the distribution of funds, by which’it was proposed that they should give £3 for £l, it might be called too liberal a proposal, but that was not a thing to complain of Suppose they expended the whole £150,000 in the way proposed by the Bill it would not be an excessive expenditure considering the circumstances of tho colony. They had often spent that amount in the paet, and spent it to good advantage. So long as the locality was only allowed to borrow in proportion to a reasonable rate then there was no fear of the ultimate repayment of the loan. The proposal for opening up Crown lands by roads was next referred to. It had been objected that no provisions had been made for deferred payments settlements. He knew of one settlement of this kind in Taranaki, a settlement which had paid all ite instalments, which would moat willingly have paid the extra cost required for roads. Indeed, they would most gladly have paid three times the amount to have been provided with roads. He looked upon this proposal as one of the best that the Government had made for a long time.

Mr McLean asked Mr Ormond to say if ho had given notice to any one on that side of the House, with which he had hitherto acted, of hie intention to move this amendment. Instead of doing that, he had kept it a profound secret from all except members of the Opposition. He did not think that the proposals of Government were altogether satisfactory. He did not think that any proposal brought down by any one would be considered altogether satisfactory, but ho did not think the motion would be carried. At the same time, the friends of the Government would assuredly see that alterations were made in a proper way. Mr Ormond was to blame for the permissive clause in the Counties Bill, and that was the only real difficulty that_ had arisen in the working of abolition. In the county he represented it had worked so satisfactorily that a number of the Hoad Boards had petitioned to be merged in the county. Had the late financial panic come upon them with all the provinces in operation they could not have gone on or met their obligations. They must of necessity have stopped payment. Immediately after abolition had been carried the then Government was turned out, and a Government got in known to be antagonistic to the success of the counties. Despite that fact, the county system had been a success. Again, the land fund had gone, which was the backbone of provincialism, and yet they were asked to return to provincialism. He defended the Government against the imputation of having wasted the time of Parliament, contending that having only had twelve Government sitting days they had got through a largo amount of work. Under the circumstances the Licensing Bill was of itself a great achievement. Regarding the question of the redress of grievances, he said that were the claim made a just one ho never found any real difficulty In obtaining redress of any grievance he took up. As to the proposals to abolish the Waste Lands Boards, the County Councils were far bettor qualified to advise the Government, and the proposal was In favor, not of centralisation, but of decentralisation. As to the local government question, he thought it would have to be left for settlement by the country. Mr Fulton moved the adjournment of the debate, and the House rose at 12.35.