PARLIAMENTARY.

Globe, Volume XXIII, Issue 2267, 8 July 1881, Page 3

PARLIAMENTARY.

[>BESS ASSOCIATION TELEGRAM. J HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Fbtdat, Jbly 7. The House met at 2.30 p.m. NOTICES OP MOTION. Mr Stbwabt gave notice of motion to the effect that the House disapproved of the conduct of the Government in forwarding the names of certain telegraphists to the Australian colonies who while in New Zealand struck work. Mr Taiaboa gave notioe that he would move that £SOO be placed on the estimates for the completion of the road at Otago Heads. Mr Fulton gave notice of motion in favour of allowing [school committees to permit Bible reading in schools, subject to the time table and a conscience clause. Mr Pykb gave notioe of a Bill to amend the Education Act. LBAVB OF ABSENCE. Two weeks' leave of absence waß granted to Mr Hurst. QTJBSTIONS. Replying to Mr Stewart, The Hen. T. Dick stated that it was found impossible to effect alterations and improvements on the buildings at preoent in use in Dunedin for Polioo Court purposes so as to render them better adapted for the work. The intention now was to remove the Court to the building recently occupied by the City Council, if this oould be procured. Replying to Mr Kelly, The Hon. T. Dick said that, acting on the advice of their law officer, Government have taken no action in the petition of Messrs Stephens and Stephens with respect to a recommendation of the public petitions committee. Mr Stewart gave notice to have the matter again referred to the committee. Replying to Mr Barron, The Hon. J. Hall said that Government was not responsible for the accident at Kensington railway crossing, or for any compensation to the sufferers. Proper precautions had been taken to prevent any recurrence. Replying to Sir G. Grey, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that he would make his promised statement as to local government on Tuesday evening. Replying to Mr Murray, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that a telegram had been received from London announcing that the report upon the Lifo Insurance Department by the actuaries had been posted. A sum of £50,000, it was found, was divisable amongst insurers. The accounts of the department would be ready for production in August. A scheme for the distribution of the bonuß was in course of preparation, and would be laid before the House as early as possible. A Bill was also being drafted to hand over the control of the department to a Board. Replying to Mr Murray, The Hon. J. Hall said that it depended upon the progress of other business whether or not Government would introduoe a Fencing Bill. If unable to do so, a short measure validating provincial Ordinances would be passed. Replying to Sir G. Grey, The Hon. J. Hail said that he found on enquiry that all the papers connected with Dr. Pollen'* pension, with the exception of an outside sheet, upon which was a formal telegram advising payment of a vouoher, had appeared. He oould only imagine that the officer in preparing copies for the printer had overlooked this sheet or considered it unimportant. NBW BILLS. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time : —The Borough of Hamilton Boundaries (Hon. T. Dick); the County Aot, 1876, Amendment; the Land Act, 1877, Amendment (Mr J. B. Fisher) ; to Amend the Wellington College Reserves Confirmation Act, 1878 (Mr Bunny). THIRD BBADING. The Wellington Queen's Wharf aad Site Bill was reported, read a third time, and passed. SECOND HEADINGS. The following were read a second time : Waitara Harbor Board Loan Bill; Taranaki County Council Loan Act, 1878, Amendment Bill. The Port Chalmers Drill-shed Bill was passed through committee. BETUBNS.

Mr Bastings moved —" That there be laid before the House a return showing the estimated population (exclusive of Maoris) in the various electoral districts at the census of 1881 given in the various provincial electoral districts." He stated, in explanation, that he understood that a proposition had been made under the proposed new Representation Bill to wipe out Waikaia, the district he represented. His object was to show, by comparison, that the district in question was of sufficient importance to be retained as a distinct electorate. The motion was agreed to. Mr Mao Donald moved—" That there be laid before the House a return showing the area of Crown lands contained in the counties of Tauranga, Whakatane, and Oook ; what proportion of such area has been purchased under the Native Lands Purchase Acts, and what area of the said land has been sold by the Government or by the Auckland Waste Lands Board since Ist January, 1872." The motion was agreed to. KKW PLYMOUTH HABBOB BOABD. Mr Weight moved—" That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the financial position of the New Plymouth Harbor Board in respect of its present and future relations to the publio creditors, and to report generally in the matter, the committee to consist of Messrs Barron, Fulton, Moss, Montgomery, Murray, Ormond, Pitt, Richardson, WestOD, and the mover." In reviewing the history of the harbor works proposals, he said that in 1870 it was agreed that land representing a sum of £45,000 should be devoted for this purpose, which at the time represented £lO per head of the district population. That proposal was not carried out. Subsequently in 1873 a Bill was passed authorising the Provincial Council of the district to borrow £45,000 for the work. That proposal also fell through. In 1877 a further appeal was made to the House, which resulted in authority being given to raise £200,000 on 6 per oent. debentures. Under that arrangement the Board went to work. The net prooeeds of that loan were £185,854. Sir John Coode's estimate of the work was £928,700. A portion of the land fund had also been allocated to the use of the Harbor Board. Such being the state of the case he thought it was of importance that the position of affairs should be inquired into, with the view of ascertaining how far there was a probability of the work being oarried out. Mr Keily said that the mover of the motion might have found out something of equal importance nearer his own home, in the provincial district of Canterbury. He mentioned the Timaru harbor as a notable case in point. That Harbor Board would injure the railway, and as such it would he an injury to the colony. Then the Canterbury runs and land laws might also have more reasonably engaged his attention. They had had inquiries over and over again into the financial condition of this Board. Having endowed it with certain powers they should allow the Board to operate upon their powers, and not time after time interfere with and injure its operations. Last year a similar inquiry to this had been demanded by the Legislative Council and the whole Board had been summoned to Wellington at great inconvenience to themselves, and it was not fair that the same thing should be repeated this session. The Board had done valuable work in the way of preliminary operations, which must of necessity be done before the work could possibly have been gone on with. Although some of this preliminary expenditure might have been saved upon the whole hebelieved that the expenditure had been beneficial. His own opinion was that the administration of works of this kind should not be entrusted to the Boards, but that was the course pursued by the Government in reference to the other Boards, and it was not fair to single out this Board for reprobation. He had no wish to oppose the motion, but merely hopod if oarried the committee would confine its in veßtigations to the financial position, and not interrupt the operation itself. The motion was put and carried. MISOBLIANEOUS. The following were also put and carried. Mr Mubbay—That a committee of ton members be appointed to consider how, by tho arrangement of the tariff or otherwise, manufactures and industries may be encouraged. Mr Mubbay That it bo an instruction to the Standing Order Committee to take into consideration the advisability of framing a Standing Order to provide that to secure greuter uniformity, simplicity, and usefulness in the statute law of the

oolony, a Parliamentary committee should be appointed, to act jointly or separately with a similar committee of the Legislative Council, and to be known as the Legislative committee, to which shall be referred for consideration and report all Bills or proposals to amend, alter, or add to the statute laws of the colony; and that before any such Sills pass through their final stage in the House, which shall be the last to consider the same, they should bo again revised by the joint committee. Mr Abdbbws—That every member of the Assembly, by virtue of his membership, be ex-officii) a visiting justioe to the gaols, lunatio asylums, and industrial schools of the oolony. Mr Shanks—That a return be laid before the House of the terms and conditions upon which £40,000 (or whatever the sum may be) waß advanced to the Waimea Plainß Railway Company ; the return to show when the money will be, if not now, repaid, the interest payable, when and how, and the security given for such loans; also any moneys that may have been advanced to assist any other railway companies within the colony ; particulars to be supplied as asked for in the case of the Waimea Plains Railway Company. Mr Mubbay—That in the opinion of this House, with a view to administrative economy and public convenience, the Stamp Act should be so amended, that up to a certain amount postage Btamps shall be substituted for revenue stamps. Mr Shbimski —A return showing (1) the amount each provincial district contributed under the land tax, as also under the property tax; (2) setting forth the amount each borough or municipality contributed under the above two beads in provincial distriots ; (3) the amount each county contributed in the same form. The House adjourned at 5.50 p.m. EVENING SITTING-. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. DB. POLLEN'S PENSION. The consideration of the report of the publio accounts committee on Dr. Pollen's Pension was an Order of the Day for consieration this evening. Mr Speight moved—" That the House agree with the report, and is of opinion that no further payment should be made to Dr. Pollen until by special act of the House it be determined what amount, if any, be fairly payable in lieu of pension." The pension olaimed amounted to a total of £BSO. The claim was made in the report for seventeen years' service under the Act of 1851. On 30th October, 1876, that claim was withdrawn, as it was found that he could not make up the seventeen years' service. He then took office in the Government, which was incompatible with his claim as a civil servant, and held the same to within one day of the date upon which he would have come under the operation of a disqualification Act passed in the interim. Having fulfilled the unexpired term, he renewed his claim for the pension. The speaker then quoted an extract from a communication between Colonel Whitmore, as Colonial Secretary, and Dr. Pollen, which showed that Dr. Pollen had not been a civil servant between May, 1872, and October, 1876. He did not mean to say that Dr. Pollen was entitled to no pension; what he contended was that it was a subject which required to be dealt with by the House. The communication referred to took place during the term of office of the Grey Ministry. Nothing more was done in the matter until a change of Government took place, when the application was again renewed. It was significant that this renewal was founded on a different Act from that under which the claim was originally made. However diversified the opinion might be as to the right to compute the time during which he held office in the Government, all were agreed that the sum of £3OO paid to him as paymaster in this colony of Imperial pensions could not possibly be included. That payment was not made in respect of any vote of this Legislature. That amount being deducted, then a very material deduction would have to be made up on the amount of any pension that Dr. Pollen might be found entitled to receive.

Mr Safndbes regretted that the motion did not go farther than it did. He looked upon this pension as having been improperly obtained. He considered this to be only one of many pensions that ought to be similarly dealt with. If pensions were to be granted they ought to have been paid out of & fund they themselves subscribed to. It seemed to him that the practice was for one Civil servant to grant the pension to another, and the taxpayer had no say in the matter. It could not be said that the members of this House were altogether free from Civil Service proolivities. They had a Government who were indebted to the Civil servants for faithful services rendered to them. Then they had members of the House who considered that they ought or might yet be connected with the service. Such being the case, a question of this kind could hardly be expected to be approached free from the Civil Service bias. It must be an indispenßible oondition of any pension paid by the colony that the full salary under which it is regulated should be voted by this House. Now, this £3OO for Imperial pensions was not voted by this House, consequently it oould not be computed in framing the pension. He then alluded to the means resorted to by Sir W. Fitzberbert, with the view of getting his age established at sixty, the date at which a pension could be claimed. Mr Gisborne was the party with whom Sir W. Fitzberbert transacted the business on that occasion, and was very accommodating. The speaker then went on to show the devices resorted to'by Mr Gisborne himself to bring himself up to the pension age, and went on to say that the whole question of pensions stood in need of consideration, and with that view he would move an amendment—"lhat it is undesirable that any decision should be come to on this pension, until the oircumstances under which pensions were granted to Sir W. Fitzherbert and Mr Gisborne had also been considered and reported upon by the publio accounts committee," Mr WbSTON admitted that the oivil servants did look after themselves, but he did not think they would play into each others hands, as had been represented by the previous speaker. With regard to Dr. Pollen's pension, he contended that Dr. Pollen was merely a member of the Executive and not a Minister, consequently that position was not incompatible with his character of a civil servant. Under these circumstances it did not appear to him that the Attorney General was far out when he gave it as his opinion that the time in dispute counted in the calculation of a pension. Then as regarded the £3OO paid in connection with the Imperial pension it must be borne in mind that it was paid to Dr. Pollen direct from this treasury, and not from the Imperial Government. In that case it was a matter between the colony and Dr. Pollen, and not between Dr. Pollen and the Imperial authorities. Then again, to the knowledge of the colony, Dr. Pollen filled three colonial offices de facto if not de jure. There was no doubt that he had performed the duties. In that case it did seem mean to take advantage of a technical loophole to deprive him of the pension he had earned. The motion as it stood was no doubt intended as a reflection on the Government occupying those benches. He was an independent member, and as suoli he could with the better grace stand up and defend their action in this matter. The whole question was one reeulated by statute, and as such it appeared to him to be outside the province of the House. To argue otherwise would be to open the door to all manner of abuee. What ho would say wa«, let all parties ooncerned refer tho question to a proper legal tribunal. Ho agreed with tho mover of the amendment that if Dr. Pollen's pension was to be opened up, then it was but right that the question, as it affected all tho others, should be opened up also, and probed in the same way. He had great faith in tho opinion of Mr Whitaker. Ho wbb one who looked carefully into whatever case might be submitted for his opinion, and he was inclined to accept that opinion in the present caße. He should support the amendment. Sir Db Laftottb would bo sorry to find matters of this kind, as had been suggested, referred to a legal tribunal. In civil Courts it could not be doubted that " Justice followed tho strong." One danger of the amendment was that the claim before them would cot come up again until too late to be dealt with this session. He was in favour of dealing with tho cases one by one on their merits. The pension before the House was an act for which the present Government wbb responsible, whereas the other pensions referred to were acts of a Government no longer responsible to the House. Then again it would be unfair to the public accounts committee to send this ques tion back for further consideration. Four membsrs were upon that committee, and they were sitting ard voting upon their own acte and doings. He hoped that state of thing? would be remedied. He also demurred to the advice obtained on the point from Mr

Fitz Gerald, the auditor. It was a vicious proceeding to ask an officer of that kind to appear in such matters as this. He trusted that an expression of opinion would be given of the conduct of the Government in adopting such means to forward the purposes of an old colleague. Mr McLban was in favour of reviewing the whole of these pensions, and it was nonsense to say that they could not do so in plenty of time to have the whole matter dealt with this session. He defended the justice of the claim, reminding them that Dr. Pollen refrained from pressing his claim upon the Government with which he was associated, preferring to wait until another Government opposed to him came into power. Referring' to the £3OO paid in connection with the Imperial pension, he reminded them that there was an express stipulation made fay the then Premier, that if he (Dr. Pollen) gave up the £3OO voted by the House, and took it in connection with the Impenal pensions, tho same should r.ot militate agiinst his pension. Under these circnmstances it would be most ur just to refuse to count the £3OO in computing the amount of the pension. Mr Montgombry spoke in favor of tho case now before the House being dealt with on its own merits. He agreed in the desirability of having the others inquired into, and would support a proposal in that direction. Mr Wood combatted the opinion that the claim was out of their hands. The Govornment was willing to pay the pension, and this pensioner was willing to receive it, so that there was nothing left for any legal tribunal to do. It was this House that objected to the pension, and as such it was for the House to discuss its merits. With every desire to see Dr. Pollen succeed, he could "not bring himself to feel that he had any legal claim. He thought the amendment ought to have bean tacked on to the motion, as he believed that all felt disposed to see both carried. They were now paying at the rate of £IB,OOO for pensions, and, but for the action of certain members, he believed nearly half the colonial revenue would have been swallowed up. He felt satisfied that unless a watchful eye wag kept on these matters the conce quence would be most disastrous. Was it not most monstrous to think that when they could not find a few pounds to make roads and bridges they could find money to roll into the laps of civil servants who had been all along well paid for their work. Such being the case he was perfectly astonished to find Ministers supporting such very questionable proceedings, and trying to throw the blame on the absent man, Sir Julius Yogel, whose conduct in the matter, however improper, had been fully endorsed by Ministers, Mr Moss asked what did this claim mean ? They had heard about this £3OO for Imperial pensions. It meant shortly that Dr. Pollen got £3OO a year for, he ventured to say, merely signing his name not oftener than three times a year, and it was for these very modest services that the colony was asked to pay him £l5O per annum. They all admitted that this arrangement with Sir J. Yogel was made both well knowing it to be illegal. He would like to know on what grounds of equity the colony could be called on to endorse that illegal act. He hoped that the House would not allow the remarkable report of the committee to be shelved by carrying the amendment. Mr Stewart concluded that the Act relied upon was never intended to apply to the case of a semi-professional politician, like the claimant in this case. What wore the facts as regards him ? He took the position of a civil servant and then went into the Government. Finding he was unpopular as a Minister he went back to the service, and continued going and coming between politics and the service until he thought it was time for him to retire with an ample pension. The Act never contemplated such coses as this. He did not desire to cast any reflection on Dr Pollen, but he thought this question should be dealt with separately and en its own merits. Sir W. Fox said that from the speeches made it was clear that the motion, if carried, would imply a vote of censure on the Government. Such being the case, that determined him in favor of the amendment rather than the motion. Deal with this question as they might, a larger question still would exist outside of it—viz., the power of the Government to pay away sums of money illegally; and yet that there should be no means for getting a wrong done rectified. What he would ask was, that the Government in such case of mal-appropriation should be made personally responsible. He would, as he intimated, vote for the amendment. If not carried he would vote for the motion on the distinct understanding that it conveyed no censure upon the Government. Mr Speight replied that the amendment, if carried, would practically have the effeot of burking the whole question. If the motion were carried he would be prepared to support a movement for investigating the other pensions brought into question. The Hon.W. Johnston said that whatever they may say about the right of Civil servants to take office, it had been tacitly acquiesced in by the House. The Disqualification Act of 1877 expressly excepted civil servants taking office in this way. They had to bear in mind that the £3OO salary conferred on Dr. Pollen did not increase in any way the total salary hewas in receipt of. In a return made in 1872, Dr. Pollen was described as a civil servant, entitled to retire in 1873 at 60 years of age on a pension of £4OO per annum. Now could it be contended that that right was to be foregone simply because he should choose to take a portion of his salary from a different source. The arrangement for tho payment of the £3OO was simply made for the convenience of the colony. How that amount should have been got out of the Treasury without the appropriation of the House was to him unaccountable, but that had been the praotice since 1872. Then again Dr. Pollen remained in exactly the same position as if those Imperial payment had been revotod to him. It was quite absurd to assert tbat his acceptance of office deprived him of all the rights he had earned as a civil servant. Not only was that contention contrary to the practice of this House, but likewise at variance with the law. He was not prepared to say that Sir W. Fitaherbert's and Mr Gisborne's pensions were altogether legal, but Dr. Pollen's was a stronger case than theirs. He would like, however, to see the question of these two pensions sifted. Mr Lbvestam would vote for the amendment. Solicitude had been shown to protect the public monies from irregular disbursement. In view of that, he would recommend for investigation a sum of £3OO paid to Mr Bees. Mr BAXLANCB admitted that, as a question of equity, Dr. Pollen had an undoubted claim to a pension. The question of legality, however, had to be considered, and there the difficulty lay. He considered that Dr. Pollen had strong equity claims which the House should proceed to validate. Mr Kelly suggested that be it was a legal question it should be left for the decision of the Appeal Court. The Houbo divided on the question that the original motion be adopted. Ayes, 31 ; noes, 38. Ayes—Messrs Andrews, Balance, Barron, Brown, De Lautour, Fisher, J. B. (Buller), Fisher, J. T. (Heathcote), George, Sir G. Grey, Messrs Harris, Hutchison, Jones, Kelly, Lundon, Macandrew, McDonald, Montgomery, Moss, Reeves, Reid, Shephaid, Shrimski, Speight, Stewart, Swanson, Taiaroa, Taiwhai, Thomson, Tole, Turnbuli, Wood. Noes—Messrs Allwright, Atkinson, Bain. Beetham, Bowen, Brandon, Bryce, Benny, Colbeck, Collins, Dick, Sir W. Fox, Messrs Fulton, Gibbs, Hall, Hirst (Wallace), Hursthouße, Johnston, Levestam, Lsvin, Maion, MoCaughan, McLaan, Murray, Oliver, Rolleston, Saunders, Seymour, Shankß, Stevens, Studholme, Sutton, Trimble, Wakefield, Weston, Whitaker, White, Wright. Pairs—Aye« : Messrs Pyke, Wallis, Seddon. Hamlin, Te Wheoro. Noes—Messrs Russell, Richardson, Pitt, Kenny, Tomoana. Mr Saunders' amendment then became the substantive motion, to which Mr J. B. Fishes moved the following addition :—" Provided that until the report of the public accounts committee haß been brought down to the House on the additional pensions no payment shall be made on account of the pensions already reported on." He thought what had been said that night ebowed the insufficiency of our audit system. Mr Swanson thought that the payment of all the pensions should be stopped until the whole of the items had been inquired into. Mr Fisher's amendment was then, by consent, altered so as to direct that no further payment of pensions be made to Dr. Pollen, Sir W. Fitzhcrbert, Mr Gisborne, or Mr Domett until the committee had reported on their cases; the committee to report in three weeks. The Hon. J. Hall accepted this, and Mr Saunders' motion as amended was egreed to. The House rose at 12 40 a.m.