MR SAUNDERS AT KAIKOURA.

Globe, Volume XXII, Issue 2081, 25 October 1880, Page 3

MR SAUNDERS AT KAIKOURA.

On Tuesday evening MrSanndera addressed his constituents at the Kaikoura in the new Good Templar Hall, and had for his audience one of the largest public meetings ever held in that township. On the motion of Mr W. Smith, Mr Arthur Collins was voted to the chair, and said that he took that position with much pleasure, as, after long and closely watohing Mr Saunders' public career, he had come to form a very high opinion of him, and to feel that they were very fortunate in having such a representative. Many years ago he and Mr Saunders were taking quite opposite views of publio queßtionß, but they had gradually got nearer and nearer together, until now there was no man in the House of Representatives with whom he more entirely agreed, or whose speeohes he read with more interest and pleasure. There was one thing which especially distinguished Mr Saunders as a prominent publio man, and that was that throughout hiß long and successful publio career he had never either sought or obtained any personal advantages for himself, but had fearlessly spoken out on every subject, without calculating what effect it would have on his own interest.JOf Mr Saunders' ability, energy, and courag's'thero was never nny doubt, but he had also Bhown a degree of moderation under trying oiroumstances for whioh he must oonfees that he had not always given him credit. He was sure they would all listen to him with much pleasure, and that they would obtain a good deal of information by doing bo. Mr Saunders thanked the chairman for the complimentary manner in which he had j spoken of him to the meeting, and said he ' Celt very happy in having a chairman who

had bo long and bo closely watched his public career. It was true that they had started in public life in different directions, and had held very different views of public men and public measures ; but both had been seeking the progress of the colony and the welfare of its inhabitants, and it was not unnatural that with more experience as to who was and who was not to be trusted, they had eventually come to pull very much in the same direction, and to seek their common object by very similar means. It afforded him great pleasure to meet them in that fine new hall, not merely because the hall was an ornament to the town and supplied a groat public convenience, but chiefly because he so heartily sympathised with the object with which it was connected, and rejoiced in such an evidence that a large portion of the inhabitants of that district were bent on cultivating those habits of self-control, self-denial, and mutual support which were the best omens of future success, happiness, and comfort. He had first to apologise to them for not having met them between the last two sessions, and hoped that they would consider that the position of chairman of the Civil Service Commission was one that demanded his undivided attention during the few months ho was engaged on it, and that he would not have been justified in forsaking it, even for the purpose of meeting his constituents. They would remember that when ho last met them the Grey Government was still in power, with Sir George Grey professing to act as treasurer. He could not tell them whether Sir George Grey was wholly incapable of understanding or stating figures, or whether it only suited him to appear so entirely ignorant in that direction, but for one cause or the other he had kept the House and the country completely in the dark as to its financial condition, and therefore none of the members were able to give their constituents much reliable information during the time that ha held the office of Colonial Treasurer. Such a position taken up by a Colonial rrousurer, either from incapacity or design, was one which no representative of the people had any right to tolerate for a single month, rhe chairman, who had known him so long, would quite understand that when Sir G. 3-rey came before the New Zealand public in ;ho capacity of a patriot and an economist, who would seek the good of the whole popuation of the country, destroy all selfish nonopoly, all misappropriation of public noney, and take £IOO,OOO off our expenditure m the Civil Service, that he (Mr Saunders) was : willing and eager to support him in the serformanco of such work, and that he had irst'gone to the House, after thirteen years’ ibsence from it, with' the full intention of loing so; but he soon had reason to suspect hat Sir George’s actions were exactly the ipposite of his professions; and now that they lad the figures before them it was clear that, mwever : reckless and extravagant other Governments had been, Sir George Grey’s Government eclipsed them all, both in the quantity of money it got rid of and in the iseless, corrupt, aud vile purposes upon which bat' money had been spent. These were erious charges, and he would not make them .bout absent men on his own authority, but vould quote from a much higher authority ,nd from statements mode in the presence of he accused, and under circumstances and in , manner that had given them every opporunity and every provocation to contradict hem if they had been able to do so. In the louse of Representatives on the 30th of last tune the present Colonial Treasurer, in reply□g to an attack made on bis Government by Sir I. Grey made the following very-definite and tartling statements in the presence of all the lartiea accused—“ Beferring to the position n which the honorable gentleman left the [nance when ho quitted office, it must bo tome in mind that those honorable gentlemen tad been crying out for years against extravagance, against borrowing, and against mia[overnment in every shape: the honorable □ember for the Thames could hardly bear to it on these benches because they groaned rith the burden of borrowed money ; and yet his is what he did during his short tenure of ffice. After all his declamation, after all his iledges, the honorable gentleman leaves labilities, when going out of office, to the xtent of abont £3,500’000. Having £919,000 □ the treasury when he came in, he spends >11,239,000 in two years, and leaves liabilities a the extent of three millions and a half rhen he goes out of office again. . . . The mount of actual cash on account of consoliated fund and loan which the honorable □ember for the Thames received and spent uring the two years he was in office wag >11,239,000. That was the amount of hard ash which passed in and out of the treasury uring the honorable member’s tenure of ffice ; and, In addition to that, the honorable □ember left us liabilities of three and a half ulliona. . . Now I have placed the facts and gores before the House, and I hope the onorable gentleman will no longer be content rith generalities if he desires to impugn any fmy statements. Let him call for returns, ; ho thinks my 'figures inaccurate; and Dturns of every description that he asks for e shall have. If he shows that lam wrong, will put up with the consequences, but if he nils to do so I am satisfied the House will ccept the figures I have given. He shall ave all the Treasury staff at his disposal to et out any return ho wants.” Such is the lain statement of bald figures made by the resent Colonial Treasurer, under ciroumtances in which it would have been instantly ontradicted and disproved if it were not fcrictly accurate. There can, therefore, be no oubt as to the quantity of money which Sir leorge Grey’s Government spent during the wo years they were in office, and the only uestion can be was the money well spent, nd has the colony got value received for it, n the six men who formed Sir G. Grey’s linistry at the time he left office, there were rhat would be vulgarly called three B.’s and hroe F.’s, but he mignt safely speak of them s three mea with very little principle and hree others with very little ability,but whoso eputation for honesty was supposed to be iseful to a Government that wished to trade ipon it. Practically it was a groat mistake or the country to suppose that the presence if three harmless men like Messrs Gisborne, Thompson and Fisher in a Ministry was any eal check upon such men as Messrs Sheehan, Jacandrew and Whitmore. The transactions bat are occasionally coming to light show hat their honest names were only used as an icoasional convenience to parade before the mblio, while the menlthemselves seem to have bought it quite a point of honor to shut their iyea as closely as possible to transactions that boy could not approve, and do not appear ipon any occasion to have offered any objeoion to the use of public money to reward Sir 3-eorge Grey’s political supporters, to sur■ound Mr Maoandrew with toadies, or Mr iheehan with his Maori beauties. He had only iime that evening to give them one sample of mob of these wasters of public money and lostroyers of public rectitude. He would ;ake the Premier first, and show how easily be set aside all law when he wanted to reward □ very ardent and a very accommodating supporter. Anyone who had read “Haniard ” would be struck with the violent language in which a Mr Rees, a lawyer, extolled Sir G. Grey and condemned his opponents in 1878. Whilst this was at its height, _ that gentleman was gratified with the receipt of £3OO of public money, paid to him in spite of all the laws to prevent the bribery of members. The audit would not pay it to him, and would not pay it to the Maori member of the Ministry, who was requested to obtain it for him, but all that was got over by employing and paying another lawyer to receive it and pay it to him. The pretence at the time was that it was paid to him to defend the Maori prisoners. Mr Sheehan stated that it was for that purpose when he ordered its payment, and Mr Gisborne and Mr Fisher still maintain that it was for that purpose, but a Mr Buller had been engaged by the Maori prisoners, and both he and the Maoris repudiated all assistance from the Government, and besides that they were not tried at all, so that it became necessary to think of some other reason for paying this money to Mr Bees, and Messrs Sheehan, Siovwright, Hoani Nahe, and several others now state that the money was paid to investigate the Natives’ title to land before a Commission that was not in existence at the time the money was paid to Mr Bees. He would read a few amusing answers given by the honest Maori who was basely employed in this work. They are some of his replies to himself when he was examined before the Public Accounts Committee this year. “ 545. Mr Saunders,3 Who first spoke to you about this whole business ?—I think it was Mr Bees, who told me that Mr Mackay would like to see me about it. 546. How long was that before the money was obtained ?—Abont a week. 548 To which members of the Government did you apply ?—I applied to the Native Minister. 549. Did you give the same reason lor wanting the money to the Native Minister that yon have given to this [committee. —Yes. 551. You are quite sure that you did not give Mr Sheehan to under-

'■. stand that the money was wanted for the defence of the Maori prisoners ?—I am quite sure I did not ask for the money for the purpose of defending the prisoners in tke Supreme Court. I asked for it for the purpose of inquiring into the land claims. 556. Do you know with what objeot Mr Bierwright was employed ?—He was to receive the money, because I could not receive it myself as a Minister. 557. Did you take anybody's advice as to the lawyers you should employ ? —No; I had no other advice than that of Mr Bees and Mr Mackay, and they ad visod me to employ Mr Sievwright and Mr Rees. 558 You say that Mr Bees advised you to employ himself ?—Yee; and Mr Bees gave me a paper which showed that he and Mr Sievwright had received the money. 559. But, before that, did Mr Bees advise you to employ himself, and did you employ him ? —Yes, he did, and Mr Mackay also advised me to employ Mr Bees. 560. Did you consult your colleagues in regard to the employment of counsel ?—No ; but I fancied the other members of the

Government would agree to the employment of Mr Bees. 561. Did Mr Bees tell you that the money was wanted in a great hurry ? Yes. 562. Did Mr Bees say that he would not take any steps in the matter until he had received a handsome sum from the Natives in cash ?—Yes. Mr Beeß said the money should be paid in order that he might know that he was to do the work, and not be kept waiting with the chance of not getting the work after all. 563. Did you think you were serving the interests of your constituents by paying this money to Mr Bees, without knowing what he was to do for it ?—I thought that the money was obtained for the benefit of the Natives ; but I did not feel satisfied in having to pay the money before any work wua done. 564 Then why did you pay the money before any work was done P —I paid the money because they (the lawyers) told me that they would not consider themselves retained to do the work unless the money was paid. 565. Did you understand what Mr Bees was to do for the money?—l understood that Mr Bees was to attend on the Commission, and inquire into the promises made by the Government to the Natives. 566. But there was no Commission at that time ? —There was no Commission at the time, but the Government had proposed that a Commission should be appointed to inquire into these matters. 567. Do you not think it would have been quite time enough to pay the money after the Commission was appointed inetead of before?—Yes, I thought so ; but I could not keep the money, because Mr Bees and Mr Mackay insisted on its being paid. They were continually asking me for it. Mr Bees asked me for tho money, and Mr Mackay said it ought to be paid. 568. And if you had aoted on your own judgment you would have thought it safer to leave the money in the Treasury until tLe work was done ?—Yes ; if I had been left free I should have left the money in the Treasury. If I had been better up in the ways of lawyers I think I should have kept the money." That is a specimen of Sir G. Grey's care of publio money, publio morality, and purity of the people's representatives. He would now ask them to follow him into one of Mr Macandrew's application* of publio money, which though of a far lesß objectionable kind was not exactly calculated to inspire confidence in his respect for economy and constitutional authority. A few months before he was turned out of nffioa Mr Conyers had written to Mr Maoondrew, and asked him to raise his salary from £I2OO to £ISOO a year, and told him that hie duties required far more ability and originality than the managers of great European companies, who were never expected to originate as he did. Mr Macandrew seems to have been doubtful if the House would estimate Mr Conyers as highly as he was estimated, by himself, and advised him that he would rather not place a higher sum on the estimates, but would give him an annual bonus of £SOO a year instead of increasing his salary by £3OO a year. This £SOO was actually taken out of a sum of £t : 0,000 which Parliament bad voted forjrailwayß, and paid to Mr Conyers as a bonus, without the knowledge or consent of the people's representatives, who thought Mr Conyers rather overpaid at £I2OO a year. But the arch waster of publio money was Mr Sheehan. He had great opportunities of doing so in the large sums that were voted and the muoh larger sums that he spent amongst the Maoris for miscellaneous purposes, and for which no strict acoount was required from him. But this did not satiafy him; he contrived to get vouchers signed for land by Natives who never received the money, and sums put down as payment for land were spent in revelry. Here again he would quote higher authorities than his o wn, and give them the statements of the Native Commissioners, Sir William Fox and Sir Dillon Bell. In their second report presented to the Governor we have some very disgraoef ul disclosures of Mr Sheehan's application of publio money, his appointments of publio officers, and the want of veracity even in the publio official statements made by him in Parliament, and as the papers that call themselves " liberal" are now trying to maks the publio believe that the present Ministry is still guided by Mr Sheehan and is anxious to receive him as one of its members, it is desirable that suoh statements on such high authority should be kept before the public. [Mr Saunders here quoted from page 32 of the report in reference to the expenditure charged against the acquisition of the plains, the full text of which has already been published.] In the same report, on pages 23 and 24, we are told "Europeans or half-castes of questionable antecedents, habitually living beyond the frontier of decent society in connubial or quasi-connubial relationship with Native women, have been taken into Government pay, and entrusted with special funotions, in the belief that they were capable of influencing the minds of the Natives favorably towards the Government. In several instances the character and habits of life of these persons have been such as ought to have disqualified them altogether from Government employment in any department, but at any rate especially disqualified them from appearing as representatives or servants of the Ministry among a people who would be only too apt to judge of the character of the Government by the tools it used." When the surveyors were turned off the Waimate Plains it was stated that the Natives had been pushed into opposition by an apparent negleot of their interest in not marking out reserves, and showing them that their interest had not been neglected. The charge seems to have been well sustained, and there now seems to be no doubt there was a most careless and negligent disregard to their interests, in what they naturally felt so strongly about. In reply to this charge, Mr Sheehan stated from his place in the House, on the 23rdof July, 1879, "I can show a plan prepared by whioh it will be seen that nearly 4000 aores out 16,000 were to be reserved for the Natives, and not only that, but their burial places, their pas, and the mouth of every stream running into their lands. So that all that was possible was done. Oat of the block containing about 95,000 acres, it was understood that Major Brown Bhould be in a position to make reserves to the extent of 25,000 aores, so that these Natives would be in the position of being the wealthiest tribe in that part of tho oountry. So that when we are told that the surveys were proceeded with without any inquiries or any reserves being made, we are told that whioh is not the case." But we learn from the commissioners' report that this plan whioh Mr Sheehan referred to as a proof that ho had duly attended to the Native interests in this matter, was a plan prepared after the surveyors had been turned off and all the mischief resulting from his negligence had been brought upon us. [Mr Saunders again quoted from the report in support of his remarks.] They would see that this plan with the reserves on it was only thought about on the 2nd of April, after tho surveyors had been turned off in March, and it was only practising a deliberate deception on tho House to refer them to a plan prepared at euch a time as if it were proof that the Maori claims had been duly attended to by him at the proper time, and before the disturbance had been produced by his culpable neglect. He thought that he had new said enough about the Grey Government; to show them that their practice was exactly the reverse of their professions, so that it would be impossible for him. to support such a Government with any due regard to his own consistency or character, or with any intelligent consideration of their interest. And now they would expect him to say something about the present Government. The chairman would remember 'that in Major Atkinson he had met an old opponent and a politician in whose favor he was certainly not prejudiced. But he had been forced to the conclusion that they must treat small political differences as of less importance than straightforward honest administration. His differences how I ever with Major Atkinson were not small. He was a good acoountant, who could both understand and talk figures. He was naturally quite at home amongst the Government

i books, and he kept the House fairly well informed aa to the financial condition of the country. He was a straightforward blunt man, more given to hard blows than compliments, but he eould also imitate Vogel in getting up fictitious systems of finance and schemes that bewildered common persons, such as his proposed rate on Grown land and Maori land, by which he hoped to keep up a revenue for his pet Taranaki at the expense of the South Island. Considering the position he has so long oooupied, he either was or pretended to be exceedingly uninformed on questions of political economy, and on the state of the South Island. He acts like a man who had never gone out of a Government office, and seems to expeotthathe has nothing to do but to put on taxes enough, and an ample revenue must follow. In the Premier, John Hull, they had a man of good all round ability, and one who was assiduous to a fault. Nothing would be lost to the Colony that he could prevent by perpetual attention, as he was a man committed to New Zealand, and not a Yogel seeking to suok the orange and then throw it away. His great fault was that he wasted his energy too muoh on small details that could be attended to by inferiors, and interfered too little with the main features of policy originated by his less reliable colleagues. The financial proposals of his treasurer, which had to be dropped, and the extreme feebleness of the Public Works Statement of the Minister of Public Works, which failed even to utilise the material. brought to his hand by the Civil Service and the Bailway Commission, were strong proofs of this. Mr Bryce was a man of feeble health, and no great pretentions, but a man whose veracity was doubted by no one. In their old friend William Bolleston they had a long known and well tried public man, who had long stood before them in a very strong light, and still stands there with very clean hands. He was perhaps rather too original, and would make more mistakes than a man who would keep more closely to a well beaten track, but his greatest faults were on virtue's side. He was always ready to take faults on his own shoulders that really belonged to other persons, and far too prone to saorifioe that portion of the colony in which he had himself the greatest personal interest. Mr Oliver was not strong enough for the very hard place he was in, and was effecting very slowly, if at all, the reforms in his department which were so urgently demanded by the necessities of the country. His old friend Thomas Dick was an old Badioal, whom be had known and worked with twenty years ago. He was the very personification of honeety and straightforwardness, and a man who would lead in ways of common sense rather than in labyrinths of mystification, which were too often I regarded aa proofs of great ability. There was a great deal which was very good in the men themselves, and if they had not been half as good as they are he would have been obliged to support them rather than run any risk of restoring such men as they had replaced. Mr Saunders then explained his action on the Civil Servioe Commission; gave his reasons for supporting the reduction of 10 per cent, on all salaries and for proposing to reduce the salaries of the Speaker, the Chairman of Committees, and three Chairmen oC Seleot Committees. He oould not join in a wish expressed by many of hiß friends and supporters to largely reduce the eduoation vote, as he looked upon eduoation as a first necessity in any country that desired to be governed by free institutions. If ever they were compelled to give up universal education they had better give up universal suffrage. There was one thing upon which he knew that he had misrepresented them and that from misinformation. Ha had advised the connection of their electoral district with the Wairau, and was only undeceived as to their wishes when it was too late to undo the mischief he had advised. However, he hoped it would be undone when the Bill came in earnest before the House, and at all events he would do all he oould for them, as it was clearly one of those Bubjeots upon which it was hiß duty to act entirely upon their wishes. Since he had been here he had heard anger expressed towards the Government for having proposed to join the Kuikoura to the Wairau, but there was no blame attaohed to the Government in the matter, as they had asked and acted on the advice of their representative, and no one was to blame but himself. In conclusion, he pointed out that it was a great mistake for them to suppose that a £IOOO to their wharf and a few hundreds to a court house or a road were the only things of any real interest to them. They would find the tax gatherer a matter of very keen interest and reality, and his presence was rendered necessary by the misgovernment of the oolony in which they had too often fanoied that they had no interest. If the various districts of the oolony had only realised the fact that every man's property would be practically mortgaged, and greatly reduced in value by the numerous sums the colony has borrowed and squandered, they would have sent representatives to prevent it, and the colony would now have been the most prosperous in the world. But petty local advantages have been allowed to outweigh great colonial security and prosperity, and we now stand face to face with the most crushing debt that any community of the same size ever tried to honestly meet. He hoped that if nothing else could educate them, their misfortunes would bring wisdom with them, and that in future they would take a wise interest in the prudent and honest government of the oolony. Mr Walter Gibson—What do you expect will be the deficiency at the end of the present financial year ? Mr Saunders—The Treasurer calculates that we are going to resort to an expenditure of nearly £300,000 of borrowed money to balance our expenditure this year, but I question if anyone has calculated upon the falling off in the customs, wbioh must result from the poorer condition of the population, when, instead of receiving money from England, as wo have done up to the present time. We have to actually send one million and a half of money out of the colony for interest. It would be a trial that no country hod yet been subjected to, and he looked with muoh apprehension on the result; but it would not como upon us to the full extent just yet, as we are spending a very considerable sum of borrowed money this year in various ways. Mr Paap—What would be the consequence of repudiation ?

Mr Saunders—That would be difficult to say. Wo should be dependent on our creditors and the Imperial Government, and should lose our place amongst respectable countries, and, as the chairman Bays, be ashamed to look an honest man in the face. There is one instance on record in which an American town compromised with its creditors for a reduced rate of interest.

Mr Leckie—Would you be prepared to support a reduction of 25 per cent, on all the higher salaries, say over £4OO or £6OO a year. I Bee that you proposed and oarried that reduction on the Speaker's salary. Mr Saunders—l cannot say that of all salaries, though in many cases I would. From what I saw on the Civil Service Commission, I am inclined to think that these higher salaries want reducing in number rather than in amount. We must have a few men capable of filling positions requiring great capacity, whioh will always command a high price, but in many cases the high salaried mea are not really doing the work they are paid for, but leaving it to a seoond in command, with, more knowledge, capacity, and energy than themselves, and with less than half the salary, and economy oould be best effected by removing these overpaid and underworked men, and filling their position with men who expeot to work for thoir money. An Elector—Would you take tho taxes off the working men. Mr Saundors—No ;if we are to pay our way there must be no attempt to put the burden on any one class, but all must take their share of the burden.

An Elector—Did you recommend a reduction of 10 per cent, on working men's wages ? Mr Saunders—l have read you a part of tho report of the Civil Service Commission, in which I and my colleagues advised a reduction of 12 i per cent, on all railway wages and salaries, whether high or low. It is the duty of the Government to get value for the money they pay away, and it is no good to any one to attempt to keep the wages of any country higher than the production of that labour will repay. It has only been done up to the present time by the fictitious state of things, produced by borrowed money profusely lavished by careleßsand thoughtless Ministers, for whioh all will now have to suffer, and the sooner the wasteful profusion is put a stop to the less we shall all have to suffer from its oonsequences. Mr Harnett—Would you do your best to get a sum of money voted for our Main North and South road ? Mr Saunders —I should be guilty of unjustifiable deception if I were to make you believe that I was likely to get any money from the Government for that road in the

present state of the colony, little as the Cheviot has had spent in it, and muoh as it will now have to contribute for the interest of money that has been spent in other places more strongly represented in Parliament; but in selecting the roads or public works for which to seek public aid, I should always take oouncil with the Road Boards and County Councils, aa the representative bodies of the district.

An Eleotor—lf we elect you again, who would you support, Atkinson or Grey ? Mr Saunders—l am not asking you to elect me again, and perhaps I never may. You have not mentioned any favorites of mine, but I Bhould certainly prefer Atkinson to Grey. However, I never have, nor ever will, promised to support any man longer than I think it will be to the interest of my constituents and the country that I should do so, and if you return me at any future time I shall do in the future as I have done in the past, support the Government that I think will best serve you and the colony, whatever name it may be called by. Wherever I may offer myself for eleotion I trust it will be to a constituency wise enough to judge me by my past aotions, rather than by any present promises.

Mr Walter Gibson said that he had a resolution to propose, but before doing so he would like to say a few words. The member for the district had in a most able speech proved to the meeting that the Grey Administration whilst in office had been guilty of the most gross maladministration, and the impression left on the minds of every one present must be that no Government in any oountry ever had committed bo many acts that would not bear investigation. He thought that the late Ministry was utterly without shame, and utterly without principle, and he trusted that no member of that Ministry would ever again return to power. Mr Saunders had also criticised the present Ministry. He thought however much the people of the oolony might disapprove of the personnel or the measures of the present Ministry, they would all agree that the Ministry were honestly stirring to extiicate the colony from the terrible position in which the Grey Government had involved it, and one of the most useful acts of the Ministry was the appointment of the Civil Servioe Commission, for the Civil Service hadjlargely outgrown the wants and requirements of the oolony. It was too costly, end more suited to the requirements of a large empire. The member for the district had on that Commission done the oolony a great service, for whioh he was now the best abused man in the oolony. He, however, thought that Mr Saunders would have his reward in the future. He moved that—- " This meeting desires to thank Mr Saunders for his address*, and for the great servioe he has done the colony whilst chairman of the Civil Service Commission and in the House of Representative!?, and also assures Mr Saunders that he possesses the entire confidence of the electors."