GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXII, Issue 2006, 29 July 1880, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[PBB PBESS ASSOCIATION SPEOIAIi WIBE.] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday, July 28. In the Legislative Council, The Hon. N. Wilson moved the appointment of a Select Oommittee to enquire into Mr Taiaroa's disqualification. The Hon. Mr MantbMi and several other members supported the motion; The Hon. Dr. Poilen alluded to the views which had been expressed by Sir G. Grey when Premier, as to the Legislative Council. In every stumping tour in the colony he asserted that, according to his own speeohes, he had made appointments to the Council, not because of the particular fitness of the appointees but to get this measure passed. In continuing his remarks Dr. Pollen alluded to the members appointed by the late Government as "fellows "of Colonel Whitmore. The Hon. Colonel Whitmobb immediately moved that the words bo taken down, but after a short discussion the motion was withdrawn. Col.Whitmore repliod to Dr. Pollen and said that the late Government had made only half as many appointments us his (Dr. Pollen's) Government made. He denied that Sir G. Grey, on any "stump," had tried to bring the Council into contempt, although he admitted that the late Premier had Baid many things which might have been better not said, and for some of whioh he (Colonel Whitmore) had remonstrated. A particular speech at the beginning of the Thames railway, in which some allusions had been made to the Council, was an after-dinner speech. Colonel Whitmore contended that Mr Taiaroa, though appointed by the late Government, was really the nominee of the former Government, having held a promise of appointment from Sir D. McLean Bince 1872. Sir F. D. Beli said that the Council must not appoint a committee with the understanding that that would be the first step towards Mr Taiaroa's reinstatement. That would be usurping the functions of the Governor. The debate was then adjourned. The Bluff Harbor Foreshore Leasing Bill was read a third time and passed. The Pharmacy Bill was considered in committee, and numerous amendments and motions were made by the Hons. Eraser and Reynolds to throw out the Bill, but ultimately both gentlemen agreed to postpone their opposition till the Bill came on for the third reading on Tuesday next. The Governor's assent was received to the Imprest Supply Bill and the Maori Prisoners Trial Bill. The Treasury Bills Bill was read a seoond time. The Hon. G. M. Watbbhottse pointed out that by making Treasury Bills issuable out of the oolony, it would be possible for the Government virtually not to keep a promise made at the issue of the last loan not to borrow within a oertain time. The Council rose at 5 p.m.

HOUSE OE BEPBESENTATIYES. Wednesday, Jtjlx 28. The House met at 2 30 p.m. PETITION. Mr Whitakbb. presented a petition from the Natives belonging to the Patetere block, praying that Government will be pleased to remove the proclamation of the block. QTJESTIONB. Eeplying to Mr J. B. Eisber, The Hon. W. Boi/leston said that Government had no complaints from looal authorities relative to the Court house at Lyell. He would make further inquiries, with a viow of ascertaining what better provision could be made. Mr Beeves asked if the Government will, during the recess, frame a Bill amending the Constitution Act, providing that all Ministers of the Crown shall, before taking office, have to be re-eleoted by their constituents. The Hon. J. Ham replied that if a measure of the kind were passed it would involve the suspension of business during the sitting of Parliament during the time that the members of the Government sought re-election, and

for that and other reasons Government could not adopt the suggestion. Beplying to Mr Swanson, The Hon. W. Rollbston said that steps . had been taken to stop the disfigurement of 1 the publio estate now going on at Mount Eden. Replying to Mr Seddon, The Hon. J. Hall said that while Government was desirous to give every possible encouragement for the development of the goldfields interests, at this late period of the session they were not prepared to appoint a Eoyal Commission on the subject. Replving to Mr Reeves, The Hon. J. Bbycb said that while Government was anxious to answer any question put in good faith, and were desirous of settling the Native difficulty, the following question put by him (Mr Reeves) was not likely to assist them in that direction :—" In what consists tho difference between the Natives on the Weßt Coast, who are being arrested in considerable numbers for putting up fences across roads, and the Natives in the Hawke's Bay district, who enter settlers' lands, take forciblo possession, and plough up tho samo." Replying to Mr McDonald, Tho Hon. J. Beyce said the Government could not give an assurance that they wil give ap all claim to the block of land oalled Nwawa, No. 1, Tolga Bay, containing 163 acres, in favor of Mr M. Mulooly, who has already spent about £I4OO in improving tho said block of land if Mr Mulooly will refund the amount advanced by the Government on the said land. Mr Andbews asked if the Government would inform the House how it is that some newspaper men can have copies of papers to make extracts from for some hours before copies are eent to the clerk for distribution. Also what rule or principle is applied to the distribution of Bills and papers to members of both Houses and the Press. The Hon. J. Hall replied that he would very much like to know himself how somo of these newspaper men got hoW of papers. Whon they applied to him ho felt it hia duty to give them copies of any papers he had, even although they had not been circulated amongst members, provided thut tho paper had been laid on the table. He believed he was acting in the publio interest in doing so. Papers were distributed in the members' boxes at the same time as they were distributed in the Press box. Mr Weight asked whether the Distribution of Seats Bill will bo brought down before the last week of the session. The Hon. J. Hall replied that the Government, intended to fulSl the promise made about bringing down this measure. It would be circulated to-morrow. Some difficulty had been experienced in fixing upon the boundaries, but these had been now adjusted. NOTICE OF MOTION. The Hon. J. Hall gave notice that be would move that the House sit at 11 a.m. on Friday, to consider certain non-political Bills. MBSSAGES FEOM THE GOYBBNOB. Messages were received from the Governor announcing his assent to tho Maori Prisoners Bill, and asking for a further sum by way of an Imprest Supply Bill. AN EXPLANATION. The Hon. J. Hall desired to make a statement in referenoe to the Bpeech of the member for the Thames, Sir George Grey, on the Maori Prisoners Bill, in which it was stated that the Governor promised to a deputation of Maori members that the prisoners would bo tried not later than January or February. When he heard that statement made he thought it incorrect. He referred the matter to the Governor, and he had received the Governor's permission to make the following explanation :—"ln the month of December an interview took place between the Maori members and his Excellency. The subject of the Maori prisoners was spoken of and the Governor said he would refer the matter of the trial to his responsible advisers, but not one word wsi said about the trial taking place in Janutry or February. The Bill under which the prisoners were detained had not then become law, so that fact went to oonfirm the opinion that the Governor had not made the promise attributed to him. He thought at the time he heard the statement made that it was a mistake. His Excellency was not at all likely to make such a promise without first consulting with his responsible advisers. Major Tb W hkoeo 8a *hey had gone to the Governor, as they were afraid he would sanction the Maori Prisoners Trial Bill. They told him that if he sanctioned it he was to make the trial as early as possible. The "Governor replied that perhaps it would be fixed for February. They aßked him to fix January, and he said it would be better in February. They told him that the prisoners would be kept a long time in custody, and he replied that they were living well. They told him that there was no question about living, but as they were kept prisoners they wished them to be brought to trial as soon as possible. The Governor replied that perhaps they would not be ready to try them then. That was what they were told by the interpreter, Mr Davis, who accompanied them. He all along had been of impression that the Governor had promised what the member for the Thames stated.

Mr Tawhaio was also present at the interview with tb_e Governor. They asked to have the trial fixed tor January and he replied that that might be ratber early. Mr Taiktji, who was also present at the interview, corroborated the statement made by the others. Sir G. Gbet stated that he had acted very cautiously in the matter. He had got a statement from the Natives in writing signed by them. He was convinced that there was a misunderstanding, but it was not by any means clear that it was on the part of the Maoris. There were a number of collateral points in connection with the statement which tended to incline his opinion in favor of the Natives. HATIVE PETITIONS COMMITTEE. Mr Shbimski moved that the Orders of the Day be postponed, to enable Sir G. Grey to bring on his motion to have his name expunged from the Native Petitions Committee. The Hon. J. Hali would consent, on the distinct understanding that it would not provoke discussion. The motion was carried. Sir G. Gbey, without oomment, moved, " That the name of Sir G. Grey be removed from tho Native Petitions Committee." The motion was carried without dissent. . NATIVE XANDS COUBT. On going into Committee of Supply, Mr Thomson moved the re-committal of the Native Tjands Court vote (£10,267), with a view to getting it struck out. It had passed in a thin House at a late hour in yesterday's sitting, and he wished it to be Btruck out altogether. They had been told that it would be of advantage to the colony if no traffio in Maori lands took place for a period of two years. This would be a step in that direction." Mr Shbehan defended the vote, asserting that a suspension of the functions of this Court would lead to inextricable confusion. Mr Macandbbw said this was another instance of the baneful effects of their late sittings. Important votes were carried in a thin House, and when but few members remain at all able to form a careful judgment upon the nature and effect of the vote. He must protest againßt this late hour work being persisted in. He supported the proposal for striking out the vote. Mr Bowen said that the effect of this would be to put an end to the only tribunal in the colony capable of dealing with theße lando, as with also the great and important interests, both Maori and European, at stake. He hoped that the House would not listen to tho proposal. i Mr Moobhottse spoke against the proposal, contending that every possible facility should be given to bring Native lands into the market, thereby increasing their territorial estate and also increasing the operations of tho Property Tax. Major Te "Wheobo condemned the working of the Court. The debate was inrerrupted by the 5.30 adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. NATIVE XANDS COTTBT.

The motion for the recommittal of the vote was negatived on the voices. COMPENSATION CASE.

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, Mr Toib broxight up the oaae of a man named Edmonds, who had a claim on the Government in respect of a vessel destroyed fifteen years ago by the rebel Natives. He had petitioned for compensation, and that claim had in part been recognised. The claim was for £I2BO, and he asked the Government to put a reasonable amount on the estimates by way of compensation. He moved—" That the desired relief be afforded to Mr Edmonds."

Tho Hon. J. Bbtob opposed the motion, asserting that if one of these claims were recognised a whole host of others would be sure to spring up. Sir G. Gbey spoke in support of the claim, asserting that this was a claim in many respeots distinct from other claims connected with Native disturbances.

The Hon. J. Hall said that Government had no objection to have the matter fully inquired into. He declined, however, to adopt the motion, as it would establish a dangerous precedent. Mr Sheehan supported tho claim, urging that it was one which might fairly bo recognised by the Government. Mr Macandbew was afraid that this would merely bo paving tho way for claims equal to one million of money. Still some of these claims might be well based, and he thought they might take somo stops to ascertain their grand total. The Hon. W. Gisbobne expressed a similar view. Major Tb Wheoeo was of opinion that claims of this kind should bo considered on their merits, adding that there were a number of just claims on the par' of Maoris, coming out of similar cases, which ought to be looked into. Mr Tole's motion was put and negatived on the voices. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Tho House went into Committee of Supply, and an imprest supply amounting to £250,000 was pasßcd, and alsa a resolution authorising the Treasurer to issue deficiency bills not exceeding £200,000, in virtue of the Publio Reserves Act. Vote—Crown lands, £21.855. Agreed to. Crown Lands Miscellaneous services, £13,325. Agreed to. Survey Department—£93,436 3s 43.

The Hon. W. Rollbston proposed a reduction of £SOOO, which was agreed to, and the vote passed. Photographic and lithographic printing, £2607. Agreed to. Arrears of survey, £20,500. Agreed to. Native Department— The Hon. J. Bbyoe said that a considerable number of reductions had been made in this department. The practice he had followed was to put the various branches of this department under three appropriate headings. He enumerated tho various officers whose services he had dispensed with and tho salaries which had been reduced considerably. It had been said that now was the time to ascertain what stops should be taken to put an end to tho present unsatisfactory state of affairs in certain Maori districts. He (Mr Bryce) said that the proper time for discussing that would bewhen the|Native Commissioners' report came on for discussion. Mr Macandbew congratulated the Nativo Minister on tho reductions he had achieved, and hoped he would live long enough to sweep the whole thing away. There was one point that he wanted to direct attention to : that

was that it might be better to have a Maori member associated with him in the Cabinet. Mr Moss could not regard the reductions talked of by the Native Minister with complacency. They had cut Sown the pensions, small enough as they stood, of men who in the past had rendered the G overnment good service. It appeared to him that the country was going wrong in this matter. Salaries and contingencies Agreed to. Miscellaneous services £BOB 16s Bd. Agreed to. Publio Trust Office—£l2Bo. Agreed to. Volunteers—£42,64o 3s 9d. The Hon. J. Bbtoe said that Government proposed to pay six months' capitation allowance to volunteer corps, because it would be unfair to reduce it abruptly, as many of these corps had entered into contracts for clothing, &s. The reductions which would be effected by that would represent £9OOO. In future capitation would only be paid to corps north of Waitara on the West Coast, in the Waikato, at the Thames, and probably at Gisborne, on the East Coast. Even if it were not a question of retrenchment, he believed it would be advisable to follow the proposed course, in order to place the force on a better footing. There could be no doubt but that the weoding-out process would be a source of much benefit. He moved that the vote be passed, subject to a reduction of £9OOO. Mr Httbst questioned whether the country should go to the expense of keeping up Rifle Associations. In answer to the Hon. E. Richardson, The Hon. J. Bbyob said that Colonel Seratohley's report had been under the consideration of the Government, but they had not yet come to a decision, although they were of opinion that the recommendation should be given effect to with reference to the organisation of the force. Mr Hubbx proposed a further reduction of £ISOO by striking out rifle associations' vote. Mr Pitt reminded them that there were a number of corps which had lately started. It would be advisable for the to take over their liabilities instead of paying further capitation. They had incurred large liabilities in view of this vote, and it should be passed this year on the understanding that it would not be given another year. The Hon J. Bbyce said he would inquire how far the Rifle Associations had committed themselves to liabilities, and if necessary a sum to meet that liability could be brought down on the supplementary estimates. Mr Moobhottsb strongly condemned the proposed reduction, stating it to be his firm conviction that retrenchment could be more efficiently carried out in other diroctionß than the volunteer vote.

Major HabriS also condemned the reduction. He complained that it was proposed to seriously injure these corps. Mr Speight also cautioned the Government that unless its economical proposals were judiciously made it would have a serious effeot towards discouraging these corps, and that at a time when the country could not well afford to dispense with their servioei. It was a great mistake to reduce by a single farthing tho moneys payable to corpß in disturbed districts. Volunteers who had turned out for active duty last year had never even been paid the expenses incurred.

Mr MACANDBEiiv would not deory volunteers, but tho question was were they to have volunteers or an income tax. The sum Bpont on volunteers, armed constabulary, &c, was very great, and the colony was not justified in incurring that expenditure. The vote should not only have been reduced, but kno iked out altogether. He made these remarks generally, in view of the state of the colony, and not in personal antipathy to thevolunteer system itself. He did not think that corps would be less effioiont if these votes were knocked oft altogether. It was a true Bpirit o£ patriotism that did or should actuate these oorpa.

The Hon. J. Bbyce replied, and the vote, reduced as proposed by Mr Bryce, was then agreed to. The House divided on Mr Hurst's motion that the vote be further reduced by the sum of £ISOO, the amount payable to the New Zealand Eifle Association. Ayes, 42 ; noes, 15. The item was struck out. The vote, as reduced, was agreed to. Constabulary and contingent defences — £138,213 17a 6d. Mr Montgombby considered that the vote should be postponed until the Government had given a detailed statement of their Native policy. He moved that the chairman report progress. The Hon. Major Atkinson said that this was simply a proposal to delay proceedings. Mr Httbst thought it would be highly imprudent to insist upon tho details of the Native policy in tbo present Btate of affairs. Mr Bbyoe said that upon the report of the West Coast Commission, a Bill would be brought down that would afford a much more suitable opportunity for discussing the Native policy. He might state briefly in explanation of their proposed Native policy that they intended to settle the plainß. To do that with any degree of safety, a foroe would have to be maintained. He asked them to allow the estimates to go through, and reserve the discufßion until the Bill came down. He believed that tho difficulty would be settled satisfactorily ; but at the same time he had to inform the House that the line between peace and war was a very fine one indeed. He might inform them that the proposed reduction in the police estimates was £SOOO. Mr Tubnbuxli supported the postponement, and pointed out that the report of the Commission might sweep away this vote altogether. The bare faot that they had passed this large vote for this purpose would tend to inflame the Maori mind, and thereby destroy all prospect of a peaoeful solution of the difficulty. In old nations the guarantee for peaoe was an ample preparation for war, but in dealing with a savage race the case was different, and preparations for war meant war to the knife. , ~ Mr Macandbew pointed out that, in addition to the European population, there was an

army of 1000. All that was done to overawe a few hundred wretched Maoris. He thought that one half of the army could very well be disbanded. Then about the police. If the localities had to pay for them they would not be so eager in their demand for police protection. In Dunedin, and he believed in Wellington also, a very great rednotion in the force might be made without impairing its general efficiency. Mr Lttndon said that there was no use objecting, as the Government were quite able to carry the day. The members for Timaru and Akaroa were always in their place attending to their business, but it was not so with many of the other members of their party. The benohes were now all but desorted. These men came during the day, moved a few bogus questions for the purpose of blindfolding their constituents—the fools that sent them there; but when real work was to be done, they wore away, and their leaders left unsupported. He advised them to pass the vote without alteration, although it was wasting the money by further discussion.

Mr MooßHOtrsE pointed out that a junior officer to Mr Shearman had been made "UnderSecretary over his head. Captain Kenny protested against repeating the mistake of twelve years ago by reducing the Defence expenditure in a fit of mistaken economy. The opposition to this vote was calculated to encourage the Natives in disturbing law and order. Tho vote was agreed to as reduoed by £9OOO on Mr Bryce's motion. Miscellaneous servioes—£l27 10s. Agreed to. Liabilities of 1879 80—£342,966 17s 6i. Agreed to. At one o'clock the committee was discussing the salary of the Publio Trustee.