GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXII, Issue 2002, 24 July 1880, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[PEB PBBSS ASSOCIATION SPECIAL WISE.] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Fbioay, July 23. In the Legislative Council, Replying to the Hon. Colonel Whitmoro, The Hon. F. Whitakeb said that Government were considoritig what to do concerning the Maori disturbance at Hawke's Bay, but no decision had yet been come to. Replying to the Hon. Mr Waterhouse, The Hon. F. Whitakeb said that Government were in no way responsible and had nothing to do with the liabilities incurred by the Wanganui Eduoation Board. On the motion for committal of the Maori Prisoners Bill, The Hons. Mantbll and Wood expressed strong opooflition to the principle. The Hon. Mr Buckley thought it ultra tires. Sir F. D. Bell and the Hon. Colonel Whitiiobe spoke in support of the Bill. The Hon. Mr Fbaseb thought that the Government ought to liberate a dozen of the prisoners who were old and decrepid, as the climate of Dunedin would soon kill them. They should be taken back to their homes whether willing or not. The Hon. Colonel Beett thought that wo were showing great pusillanimity in the matter in being afraid of a few Maoris. If Colonel Roberts was instructed ho could go right through the country, and deal with the whole 30,000 Maoris. ' He blushed for his flag which had waved a thousand years that we should be acting so cowardly. The Hon. Mr Scotland thought that the Bill was brought in in the interests of the West Coast settlers, who would always want this sort of legislation even i£ there were only a dozen old women there.

The Hon. F. Whitakeb thought that if there were old women there Mr Scotland had better go and keep them company. The Hon. Mr Williamson thought that the passing of the Bill was imperative. The Bill was then passed through Committee.

The Hon. Mr Fbaseb proposed an amendment—" That the operation of the Bill should ceaao on October 31st; and the Hon. Colonel Whitmobb another amendment—" That the

prisoners should bo tried before discharge." Both amendments were rejected. On the motion for the third reading, The Hon. G. M. Watbbhousb proposed a resolution—" That the Council had only passed the Bill to meet an emergency, and that if the existing law was insufficient for all wants, Government should amend it." This resolution was rejected after some discussion, and the third reading carried by 24 votes to 4. The District Courts Act was read a third time. The Public Health Act Amendment Bill, Port Molyneux Roservos Leasing Aot Amendment Bill, were read a first time, and the Council rose at 5 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Fbiday, July 23. The House met at 2.30 p.m. petition. The Hon. E. Richardson presented a petition signed by 321 persons against the continuation of the bottle system. notices op motion. Mr J. B. Fisheb gave notice that he would ask if Mr McDonald, who was appointed Land Purchase Commissioner, is the same who was convicted of shooting two mail coach horses at Falmerston some time ago. Notice was given on behalf of Mr Lundon that he would ask if the Government has considered the [policy of imposing a tax on coal. QUESTIONS. Replying to Sir W. Fox, The Hon. W. Rolleston stated that the case of McMinn v. Kirkbridge, tried at the R.M. Court, Marton, had not been taken notice of by the Government, as no complaint has been received on the subjeot. Replying to Mr Seddon, The Hon. R. Oliver said that Government recognised the self-sacrifice made by the miners employed in recovering the bodies of the men killed in the Government sludge channel, at Kumara, aad thought it would be an insult to offer them payment for their services. Replying to Mr Seddon, The Hon. J. Hall said that the Government were indisposed to reduce the fees charged for the naturalisation of foreigners, ■as they considered 20s little enough considering the advantages of being made British subjects. Replying to Mr Fulton, The Hon. J. Hall said that the Government would oppose as unnecessary the proposal to print a supplementary "Hansard" in Maori of the speeches delivered by the Native members. DECEASED WIPE'S SISTBB MAKBIAOB BILL. Mr Moobhousb gave notice that he would ask that precedence should be given to the motion for the second reading of the Deceased Wife's Sister Marriage Bill on Monday. Sir G. Gbey objected, and the Speaker ruled that the motion being objected to could not be put. PIBST BEADING. On the motion of Mr Maoandbbw, the Port Chalmers Drill Shed Bill was introduced and read a first time. second reading. On the motion of the Hon. Major Atkin. son the Treasury Bills Bill was read a second time. COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, Mr Seymour said that he understood that the legislative vote would be brought on. He desired to state that the proposed increase in the salary of the chairman of committees had been placed upon the estimates without his knowledge, and he wished not only to Bay that he would not accept it if voted, but he would cheerfully submit to any further reduction that the circumstances of the colony might require. Vote, miscellaneous—ltem £450, compilation of Maori history. Mr Whitaker moved that it be reduced to £4OO. He stated that he had made further enquiries, and the more ho enquired into it the more convinced he was that the item should not be passed. Sir G. Gbby opposed the proposed reduction. The work was not really a compilation of a history. It was impossible, with the material to hand, to compile such a work with any degree of aocuraoy, but they should continue the endeavor to collect all the information they could. If that were not done the history o£ the Native race would never be written, and he thought that would be a disgrace to the colony. The Hon. W. Gisbobnb said that what the committee wanted was some finality, and that no more than a fixed sum would be required for its completion. Tear after year for the last fifteen years, they had been asked to vote sums for a Maori lexicon, and seemingly these demands would never come to an end. Replying' to Mr Bain, The Hon. T. Dick said that he was assured from personal information, that the work of compilation was going on. The Hon. J. Hall said it was quite impossible to postpone the work. It must either go on or be dropped altogether. The House divided on the proposal for reducing the item to £4OO. Ayes, 29 ; noes, 40. The Hon. T. Dick said that Government recognised the importance; of some finality, and with that view ho would agree that the sum be made £3OO on the understanding that a bonus would be given on the completion of the work to the satisfaction of the House. Mr Sheehan hoped that the vote would not be reduced, and iE reduced he hoped that the Government would keep its word and grant a reasonably good bonus. The vote as reduced was put and carried. The vote, as reduced from £30,670 10a lid to £28,201 5s lid, was then put and carried. Class 1, Legislative department, was then brought on for consideration.

The Hon. J. Hall said that in view of the fact of 20 per cont. reduction being proposed on Ministers' salaries, he thought that members should do the same thing. He would move it in proper order. Sir G. M. O'Robke said that he would justify his proposal to increase the salary of the Chairman of Committees by £IOO. Last year members had received two sessions' honorarium, while for the first of the two sessions the Chairman of Committees had only been paid £3O, instead of £2lO, and it waß never contemplated, with all the extra work that the Chairman had to do, that he should be paid lesß than private members. With regard to the proposal of the Premier to reduce the honorarium 20 per cent, he entirely dissented from it. They were in no respect to be regarded in the light of civil servants, and they had no right to be subjected to the same mutilations in this respect. Ho looked on the honorarium as being small enough. Mr Fulton said they could not stay there and out the salaries of others down and not reduce themselves. He would go further, and vote that the honorarium be reduced to £l5O. That was sufficient to pay all reasonable expenses in respect of their attendance in Parliament.

In reply to Mr Pitt it was stated that no honorarium was paid to the Chairman of Committees of the Legislative Council. The result of that was that the membera last session drew £2lO, while the Chairman of Committees only received £2OO. Vote—Legislative Couuoil £1620, Mr Mubeat moved that the item. Chairman of Committees (addition to permanent salary, £300) £IOO be struck out. The House divided—Ayes, 35 ; noes, 35. The Chairman gave hia casting vote with the noes, so as to leave the item for further consideration.

Mr Macandeew moved that it be reduoed £99 His object was to affirm the principle that £3OO per annum was sufficient for the office. Mr Spei&ht suggested by way of compensating the chairman for any loss last session that the amount should be voted by way of bonus. In that way it would not have the effect of increasing the permanent salary. The Hon. J. Ham. said that Government would, if the amount were Btruck out, bring down a sum in the supplementary estimates in the form of a bonus. The amendment that it be reduced £99 was then put and carried. Item —£50, chairman of Public Petitions Committee. Mr Andbews moved that it be struck out. Carried. Item —£100, clerk (addition to pormanent salary, £400). Mr Andbbws moved that it be struck out. Ho contended that £4OO was quite sufficient for the work. The Hon. J. Hai.li said that praotically speaking this was no advance, but actually what had been paid for some years. Mr Bcwen opposed the reduction. Mr Swanson said that they had been paying hin? £4OO, and making him a present of £IOO when they were in funds. It was not too muoh to say to him now that they wore out of funds, wo cannot afford to give this

present. His aervioes were only rendered four months in the year. Mr Gbobgb proposed that the reduction should not exceed 10 per cent. Mr Johnston said that in justioe to the country it was absolutely necessary that reductions should bo made.

The Hon. Major Atkinson said that they had no doubt been going on far too fast, but that was no reason why they should do an injustice to their old servants. The office was a responsible one, and it was absolutely neoessary that the pay should be suoh as would command the services of a first-olass man. Compared with the salary paid by other Legislatures, this was by no means exorbitant. After further discussion the question was put, that the item be struck out. Ayes, 39 ; Noes, 30. The item was accordingly struck out. The House adjourned at 5.30.

EVENING SITTING-. The House resumed at 7.30. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Item—£3so, clerk's assistant. Mr Andrews proposed a reduction of||£so, and pointed out that the offioe only involved four months' work. In reply to Mr Richardson, it was stated that the 10 per cent, reduction did not apply to these salaries. In reply to Mr Bain, it was stated that these officers were not entitled to pensions. The Hon. J. Hall opposed the reduotion, stating that the duties of these officers were most onerous. Mr Gbobgb proposed that an all-round roduotion of 10 per cent, be made. Mr Pitt said that the rule which guided him was making reductions in proportion to the character of the servioes rendered. In the ease of this offioer he was only engaged four months, so that his rate of salary was larger than that paid to Ministers. Captain Russell said that if they liked to let the office to the lowest bidder, a much reduced rate might be fixed, but if they wanted to maintain the efficiency of the servioe, good salaries must be paid. Colonel Tbimblr supported the proposal for an all round reduction on the fixed scale. In many instances the business was unostentatiously kept right by these officers, and the members of the House got the credit. Mr Andbews, in reply, said that no ono could say that the duties of this office required speoial qualifications. They had been told that these officials were engaged only four months in the year, and yet they found that during that time they had amplo time to disport themselves on the lawn. The Hon. J. Hall said that this official had to do the wsrk of clerk of oommittee, and these duties were known to be of the utmost importance. Dr Wallis said that Ministers were responsible for this proceeding. They proposed to reduce their own salaries 20 per cent., and he considered that these salaries should be applied to the subordinate officials. The question for reducing was then put. Ayes, 38 ; noes, 34. The item was accordingly reduced to £3OO. Item—£2oo, second clerk assistant. Mr Andrews moved that it be reduced £2O. Mr Maoandbbw moved that it be struck off. The Hon. W. Gisbobnb concurred, and pointed out that the staff was as large in this department as it was in the House of Representatives, while they did not do one half the work. The Hon. J. Ham protested againßt this mode of striking out items without knowing the nature of the duties discharged. Mr Maoandbbw said he hau no doubt that the office was necessary but then the country could not afford to pay for the officers. The motion for reducing the item by £2O was carried. The items—£lso extra olerical assistance and interpreter £2OO, were passed, also the items messengers and contingencies, £570. Vote—House of Representatives, Hon. Mr Speaker (addition to permanent salary, £600) £2OO. Mr Saundbbs moved that the £2OO be omitted. Agreed to. Item—Chairman of Committee (additional to permanent salary, £400), £2OO. A motion that the £2OO be omitted was agreed to. Item—Chairman of Public Petitions' Committee, £IOO. A motion that the item be struck out was disoussed. Messrs Swanson and Mubbay supported the item, and testified to the onerous oharaoter of the duties to be performed. The item was omitted on the voices. The items, Chairman Native Affairß Committee £IOO, and Chairman of Waste Lands Committee £IOO, were Btruok out. Item—Clerk of Parliament (additional to permanent salary £600), £IOO. The Hon. J. Hall said that this was in reality no addition, but the amount he had been actually receiving for the last seven years. Mr Satjndbbs moved—" That the item be struck out."

Mr Swanson pointed out the absurdity of paying the clerk £IOO more than they paid the Speaker. Mr Sadndebs said he could remember the time when this clerk had only £4OO, and he discharged the duties equally efficiently. Sir G. M. O'Hobkb spoke in favor of the item being retained, and bore testimony to the long and faithful discharge of the duties. The question that item be Btruck out was put —Ayes, 29 ; noes, 41. Mr Seddon moved that it be reduced to £7O. A division resulted in—Ayes, 35; noes, 39. Mr Sbddon then moved that it be reduced to £50.. A division resulted in—Ayes, 31; noep, 42. Item—Olerk's assistant (additional to permanent salary, £400), £IOO. Mr Seddon said that after the exhibition in the last vote ho did riot think that Government was sincere in its profession about retrenchment. He would therefore not vote for any more reductions. Mr Reeves said that the Government had proposed a ten per cent, reduction, and having neglected to make any rednotion on the last item he did not believe in the sincerity of their profession. The item was carried as printed, on a division, by 54 to 22. Mr Tubnbitlli moved that the vote bo reduced £SO. The motion was negatived on the voices, and the item as printed passed. Item—Second clerk assistant, £4OO. Mr Geobge aaid that this officer was engaged the whole year round. The item as printed was passed. Item—Sergeant-at-Arms, £250. Mr Geobgb moved that the item be reduced to £2OO. They .could get a member of the Armed Constabulary to do the work well for that amount. Sir G. M. O'Robkb spoke in favor of the item being retained, and reprobated the statement by the previous speaker about employing one of the Armed Constabulary. Mr Andbews supported the reduction, stating that £SO was sufficient. Mr Shbisiski said that the Sergeant had to attend upon the House and £SO would be too little for the work. Mr Tttbnbdil said that there was no need for a sergeant to attend at all. The House resumed, and a message was read from the Upper House, stating that the Maori Prisoners Bill had passed. The Pbehibb said that the present Bill under which the Maori prisoners were detained, expired to-night, and the Bill would be assented to that night, so as to legalise their detention. The House resumed in Committee, when the item before the Committee was further considered. Mr Swanson spoke of the absurdity of the office. If it was necessary to take anyone into custody, they ought to have a policeman in attendance. If tney gave £2O to one of the messengers, the thing would be done well. The Chief Messenger had done the work previously, and that was evidence that what he advocated was tenable. Mr Seddon suggested that they should vote the item this session on the understanding that it would not bo repeated next year. Replying to Mr Speight, The Pbemieb said that the Sergeant had charge of all messengers connected with the House. Mr Tubnbull proposed to omit the item altogether. The House divided on the question that the item be omitted. Ayes, 22; noes, 43. Mr George'B motion that it be reduced £240 was then put and lost on the voices. On a motion to roduce it by £IOO the House divided. Ayes, 36; noes, 24. The item as reduced was passed. Item—Reader, £175. Mr Speight proposed to reduce the item £25. bir W. Fox testified to the efficiency with which he had discharged his duties.

Mr Sheehan also stated that he was a good and valuable officer. The item was passed on the voices. Vote general expenses. Item—passages of members, £llsO. The item was reduced by £250. Item Expenses of members of both Houses, £21,575. The Hon. J. HALt moved a reduction of 20 per cent., amounting to £4315. Mr Mubray moved that the reduction be £IO,OOO.

Mr McOaughan moved a reduction of members of the House of Representatives 20 per cent., and Legislative Councillors 50 per cent.

Mr Maoandbbw suggested the propriety of postponing the vote, so as to separate the members of one House from that of the other. It was anything but creditable that last session members of the Legislature should have received two honorariums. Sir G. Gbey moved that the item be withdrawn in order that the whole question might be considered, and the vote brought down on some future occasion in the supplementary estimates. He agreed in the opinion that the Legislative Council honorarium should not be fixed at the same rate as the amount for the other branch. Mr Saundbbs said that by carrying the motion of the member for Bruce they would be deducting 20 par cent, from their own honorarium, and allowing nothing for the Legislative Council. He would support that proposition. Mr Bowbn said that by cutting off the honorarium altogether from the Upper House the effect would be to close its doors against everyone but men of property. Replying to Mr Swanson, The Hon. J. Hall said that members residing in the city were paid some £l4O. Mr Moss said it was to be regretted that this question was not fixed by Aot. He did not believe that the amount fixed was a farthing too much, but if it was once reduced he would certainly object to allow it, as it was last year, to be again restored to its former rate. He knew of no Legislature so badly paid as they were. Mr Murray Boid that this proposal would bring the honorarium back again to the rate paid in 1871 2-3 4, and he did not think that the state of the colony was any better to-day than it was in 1874. The motion for postponement was negatived on the voices. The motion for a reduotion by £IO,OOO was then put—Ayes, 15; noes, 58. The motion for the reduotion of 20 per cent, was then put—ayes, 35 ; noes, 39. The following is the division list:— Ayes, 35. Messrs Adams, Allwright, Atkinson, Bain, Barron, Beetham, Bowen, Brandon, Dick, Sir W. Fox, Messrs Fulton, Hall, Hurst, Hursthouse, Johnston, Kenny, Levin, Mason, Masters, MoOaughan, McDonald, Murray, Oliver, Ormond, Pitt, Richmond, Richardson, Rolleston, Saunders, Shephard, Stevens, Studholme, Swanson, Whitaker, Wright. Noes, 39. Messrs Andrews, Ballance, Brown,Bunny,DeLautour, Finn, J.B.Fisher, J. T. Fisher, George, Gibbs, Gisborne, Hamlin, Harris, Hirst, Ireland, Jones, Felly, Lundon, Macandrew, Montgomery, Moorhouse, Moss, Sir G. M. O'Rorke, Messrs Pyko, Reeves, Reid, Seddon, Shanks, Sheehan, Shrimski, Stewart, Tainui, Tawhai, Te Wheoro, Thomson, Tole, Tomoana, Turnbull, Wallis. Mr J. T. Fishbb moved that the amount be reduced 10 per cent. Mr Allwbight said ho was astonished that the members of the so-called Liberal party should vote for the reduction of the civil servants down to day laborers, and then vote against any reduction in their honorarium. He moved that it be reduced 15 per cent. Mr Sheehan said that unless the honorarium voted was a reasonable amount many true liberal minded men oould not afford to go into the House. The basis of the liberal policy was the payment of members. The proposal made by the last speaker had been actuated by a desire for a little cheap popularity. The Hon. J. Hail supported the proposal for the 15 per cent, reduction, and defended the last speaker from the imputation of being actuated by improper motives. The discussion on the honorarium was continued, and the House divided on the proposal to reduce the vote by 15 per cent. Ayes, 33 ; noes, 37. Mr Fisheb moved that the amount be reduced by 10 per cent. Ayes, 49 ; noes, 20. Ayeß—Messrs Allwright, Andrews, Atkin. son, Bain, Barton, Beetham, Bowen, Dick, Finn, Fisher, J. T., Sir W. Fox, Messrs Fulton, Gibbs, Gisborne, Hill, Harris, Hirst, H., Hurst, W. J., Hursthouse, Johnston, Kelly, Kenny, Levin, Macandrew, Mason, McOaughan, Masters, McDonald, Montgomery, Murray, Oliver, Pitt, Reeves, Reid, Richmond, Riohardson, Rolleston, Saunders, Shanks, Shephard, Shrimski, Stevens, Stewart, Studholme, Swanson, Tole, Turnbull, Whitaker, and Wright. Noes—Messrs Ballance, Brown, Bunny, DeLautour, J. B. Fisher, Hamlin, Ireland, Jones, Lundon, Moorhouse, Moss, Sir G. M. O'Rorke, Messrs Pyke, Sheehan, Tainui. Tawhai, Te Whero, Thompson, Tomoana, and Wallis.

Mr Moss BBked, would the Government now bring down a Bill and fix the amount at what the committee had voted, so as to avoid such diacussions in future.

The Chairman ruled the question out of order.

Item—Examiner of Standing Orders, £250. Passed.

Progress was then reported, and the House roße at 1.15 a.m.