GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXII, Issue 1987, 7 July 1880, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

; [PEB PRESS ASSOCIATION SPECIAL WIRE.] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. i Tuesday, Judy 6. i In the Legislative Council, i The Elections Petitions Bill and the Pharmacy Bill were read a first time. The Bank of Now Zealand Act Amendment Bill was read a second time without discussion. In reply to the Hon. G. M. Waterhouse, who asked a question relative to the late employment by the Wellington police of informers of notoriously bad characters for slygrog selling cases, The Hon. E. Whitaker said that they would probably not ba employed again, though they had bean employed previously, and had given satisfaction. The Hon Mr Mantell asked if the Government were aware of the existence of the guinea worm in any of tho flocks of the colony ? The Hon. E. Whitaker said there was undoubtedly a somewhat similar worm existent in some oheep, but Dr. Hector was of opinion that the true guinea worm was not to be found in the colony. The Hon. Q. M. Waterhouse asked what the Government intended to do relative to tho expenditure of the New Plymouth Harbor Board, and whether that expenditure was illegal. The Hon. P. Whitaker ejid that the only communication Government had received on the subject was a request from a local public meeting to take over the works. On the motion for the third reading of the Native Land Court Bill, The Hon. P. Whitaker moved its recommittal for further amendment. On this there was a discussion of two hours on the general Native policy and the proposed Native legislation of tho Government. The Hon. N. Wilson asserted that the Government Native Lands Bills were brought in in the interest of a few speculators. Several speakers expressed their opinion that none of the Native Bills would pass this session. Ultimately the motion for recommittal was carried, and the Bill ordered for tho third reading next day. The Council rose at 5 p.m. HOUSE OP EEPEE3ENTATIYES. Tuesday, Judy 6. Tho House met at 2 30 p m. notice op motion. Mr Tamoana gave notice that ho would ask if Government intend to bring in a Bill this session to increase the number of Maori members. QUESTIONS. E’plying to a question by Mr Saunders, The Hon. J. Hadd said that he proposed asking that the House meet in future on Mondays, and that in the event of that request being carried the Civil Service Commissioners’ report would bo brought on for consideration on Monday evening next. Mr Saunders thereupon gave notice for the production of papers and reports relative to the working of tho lines, the supply of waggons and carriages said to have been defective, both as regards material and workmanship, as also the production of a variety of information in support of the findings and recommendations of the Civil Service Commissioners.

Eeplying to Mr Seddon, The Hon. E. Oliver said that the services of Mr Gow, Government surveyor, Kumara, would be placed at the disposal of the relief party where the accident had occurred endangering the lives of certain miners. Eeplying to Mr McOaughan, The Hon. J. Hall stated that tho Government did not intend to bring in a Bill to disfranchise the Civil Service and other employes of the Government. Eeplying to Mr Eichmond, Tho Hon. Major Atkinson said that steps would be taken to ascertain whether a foundation could be secured for a lighthouse on Stephen’s Island. Eeplying to Mr Eeid, The Hon. E. Oliver raid Government did intend removing the Public Works office from Hokitika to Greymouth. Eeplying to Mr George, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that it was not necessary that persons holding shares in any shipping company in the colony should show the value of tho shares held by him in such company in the schedule issued under the Property Assessment Act, 1879. Eeplying to Mr George, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that no liability had or would be incurred under item £SOOO, under vote on page 127 of the estimates, towards tho cost of separate Government insurance offices.

Eeplying to Mr Finn, Tho Hon. W. Eollbston said that the total amount of money paid by the Government for the maintenance of prisoners in Arrowtown gaol for the year ending June 30th, 1880, was £475. Eeplying to Mr Whitaker, Tho Hon. J. Bryce said that a correct list of officers of militia and volunteers of New Zealand would be forwarded to England for publication in tho “Army List,” but the roll required revision and purging first. Eeplying to Mr Murray, Tho Hon. J. Hall said that £8169 had been spent for printing “ Hansard,” Parliamentary returns, statutes, gazettes, &c., last year. NEW BILLS, The following Bills were introduced and read a first time :—Bill to Amend the J notices of tho Peace Act, 1866; Married Woman’s Property ; to amend the Mines Act, 1877 (Mr Finn). THE ESTIMATES. On a motion for going into Committee of Supply, Mr J. C. Brown moved that all machinery and all head and tail races for mining, agricultural, manufacturing, and other purposes, bo exempt from the operation of tho property tax. The Hon, Major Atkinson suggested that the motion should be withdrawn, pointing out that when the Bill was before tho House the matter could bo fully discussed. He made that suggestion with a view of saving time. The motion was withdrawn as suggested. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, Mr Saunders moved as an amendment, — “That a reduction of ten psr cent, be made on all salaries and wages excepting those connected with the Legislative Department, which should be specially dealt with, and that Government should make large reductions in the number of officers by tho amalgamation of offices and otherwise, and that all services which were not indispensable to_ the efficient performance of the public service be abolished altogether.” The Hon. J. Hall said that Government had showed itself most anxious to make every possible reduction, and he quite agreed with the motion as made. To effect these reductions and give effect to the motion, the public would have to be prepared to make considerable sacrifices, as facilities and conveniences hitherto provided could not possibly be continued.

Mr Macandhew agreed with the spirit of the proposal, but thought that the basis proposed by the member for Waitemata would be more equitable. It was not so much the reduction of salaries to which ho looked for saving as to the amalgamation of offices. He considered that by a judicious amalgamation of offices a sum of £200,000 could bo saved. Sir G. Geey said that ho understood that a motion of this kind was meant to include the salary of the Governor. The Hon. J. Hall replied that the salary of the Governor could not bo touched until the expiry of the term of office of the present incumbent. The motion would bo given effect to by a clause in the Appropriation Act. The Hon, W. Gisboknb said ho was doubtful if by putting a clause in tho Appropriation Act they could deal with salaries fixed by Act of Parliament, but! if that was the case, then tho Governor’s salary likewise could bo reduced. With regard to the general question, he thought that mere should be done in tho way of amalgamating offices than was aimed at by the motion. He would, when tho time came, move a resolution to that effect. Mr Gbobgb said that they had heard a good deal of late of government by commission, This was an instance of government by the caucus held yesterday. It was, however amove in the right direction. The proposal by the member for Waitemata was, to his mind, more equitable, and if this motion was disposed of he hoped to see the proposal by Mr Wood brought forward. Mr Pyke argued that tho estimates should be taken back and recast. If they did so, and reduced them £150,000 or £200,000, they would ho prepared to pass them in a day. 3Che House were not in a position to go over

eaoh item, and if they attempted to do bo the chances were that serious hardships would arise. Besides, it would entail a very great waste of public time. As for the proposals made by the member for Cheviot, they were meaningless. An all round reduction such as he proposed would be an injustice to some officers, and to others the reduction would be much less than it should be. He asked them to adjourn the House till the estimates were re-oast.

i Mr Wood said he believed that the amendment had been inspired by the Government, and it should have been moved by the Treasurer, who would have been able to give explanations that the member for Cheviot could not be expected to give. If Government would only lead the House they would know what was meant, and until that course was adopted ho believed there would be nothing but misunderstanding. He had tabled a aeries of resolutions, and he did so not as a matter of party, but as one of business. It was now an understood thing that the amendment before the House would either have to bo carried or none at all. Government was strong enough to do that. This resolution, and those beforo the Houee, wore in many respects similar. The only material difference between these resolutions was that ho had exempted the wages class, whereas the amendment of the member for Cheviot expressly included that class. He was not going to make any objection to that, at tho same time he thought it was wrong. Then again, another similarity between his proposals and those of tho Government was that the number of officers were to be considerably reduced by the amalgamation of offices and otherwise. Then, again, he proposed that the Agent-General’s department should be abolished. What the Government proposed was that the matter should be loft over for tho report of the Public Accounts Committee, In fact, he took it that there was great similarity between his resolutions and those of the Government. It was a great pity that these resolutions wgro not moved by the Government; still he thought the House would do well to accept them, as that was tho only prospect there was for getting on with the business. Mr Moss said that he hod never yet been able to reconcile the financial statement with the demand for retrenchment. As he read the financial statement, the colony was £1,000,000 or £1,200,000 better than it had been when the late Government left office. Those were the figures of financial statement, although ho know very well that such was not the case, and that there was actually a pressing requirement for retrenchment. Ho believed there was only one possible way for effecting retrenchment, and that was for Government to lead them. When the financial statement was brought down, they were told that all difficulty had been provided for, and now already they were told that retrenchment was more than ever demanded, and the House was left to devise the means for retrenchment. Government were placing them in a false position, a position they should not be asked to occupy. Mr Montgomery argued that they were entitled to ask tho Government to give more explicit information regarding their proposals for reductions. The House adjourned at 6.30. EVENING SITTING. The Houss resumed at 7.30. THE ESTIMATES. The Hod. Major Atkikbon said that the resolutions of Mr Saunders were not, as had been stated, the resolutions of the Government. Had they been, they would have been moved by the Government. They were resolutions which the Government understood expressed the views of the majority of the Bouse, and as they went in a direction Government desired it had adopted them. What they understood was that by ten per cent, to be reduced from salaries and other reductions a total of from £IBO,OOO to £200,000 should be saved on the annual expenditure, but the reduction this year would only be from £70,000 to £BO,OOO. Sir G. Obey was disappointed that this resolution should have taken tho place of that of the member for Waitemata, As he understood it salaries would stand as they were on the estimates, and a sum equal to 10 per esnt, be deducted. Then again, a similar reduction was to be made on wages; in other words a man who labored for the Government was to have 2s in the ,£ deducted. That was a grievous deduction, and one which far exceeded any income tax ever imposed. He believed that remonstrance was useless. All this had been settled in caucus. He would contend against what he considered to be a serious wrong on the colony. On the question being put, the motion for going into Committee was negatived on the voices, and on the motion as amended being put, , Mr Shepherd moved that tho word “ wages ” be struck out. Mr Montgomery advocated tho imposition of a sliding scale of reduction. On salaries of £SOO ho would have 1 per centage, and on salaries below that, another rate. He would suggest that 10 per cent, be fixed on salaries from £IOO to £SOO, and 15 per cent, on salaries above that. He would exempt wages from reductions altogether. Mr Speight proposed—“ That the resolution be made to read 1 on all salaries over £2OO the reduction to bo ten per cent, and that “ wages ” be struck out, Mr Sbddon moved—“ That 20 per cent, be reduced from salaries over £600; 15 per cent, on salaries under £6OO and over £3OO, and 10 per cent on all salaries between £2OO and £300.” He said he would divide on every item rather than allow the reductions to be made on a uniform scale.

Mr Lphdon spoke in favor of Mr Seddon’s proposals, except as to the exemption of wages. Mr Eeadee Wood said that there was no compromise between him and the Government. He thought that it was hut right that the Government should get precedence in moving the resolution to which it adhered. If the motion of Mr Saunders was negatived, then ho would move the motion standing in his name.

The Hon. J. Hall said that they had been told to lead the House, and having accepted a reasonable compromise and attempted to lead the House, they found these men who talked about leading were first to refuse to follow. It had been alleged that Government regulated the labor market, and that the proposed reduction was a bad precedent under the circumstances, The fact, however, was that the demand for labor ruled the rate of wages, and not tho Government. If the Government had established an artificial rate of wages the sooner it was disestablished the better. Moreover they did not wish to create the impression that they were desirous of exempting the wages men from all the prevailing effects of the depression. A sum of £650,000 was paid in salaries under £2OO. To make any material reduction if these were exempted, they would have to impose a ruinous rate on larger salaries. It was a most important thing that men in the position of Under Secretaries should be thoroughly able and efficient. Ho therefore hoped that the proposed reduction would be equally applied as against all.

Sir G. Geey said that Government had asserted that they had set up an artificial rate of wages, and that therefore they were justified in reducing them as proposed. That was wrong. If they had established such a rate of wages they ought to reduce them without reference to the present reduction. The Premier had stated that it was more important that there should be able Under Secretaries than able Ministers. That was a most humiliating admission. What was that but an admission that the Government of tho country was governed by tho Civil Service. It meant that the Government, which ought to lead the House, were driven by those who were supposed to bo their servants, and that in reality Government wore the tools of the Civil Service.

Mr Mobs said that what they aimed at was a reduction of expenditure and not a cutting down of wages. It was the Government alone that could do the work efficiently. It cculd not be done properly by the House, but through the Government alone. Mr Thomson moved aa an amendment — “That salaries between £IOO and £250 be reduced 10 per cent.; £250 to £SOO, 12 i per cent.; and abovo £SOO, 15 por cent., except the officers of the Legislative Dspartmont, which should be specially dealt with.” If there was to be a reduction at all it must be on a eliding scale. Mr J. B, Fishes said that Government ought to be agreeable to a lump sum, and then bo prepared to take the responsibility of allocating these reductions. He could not vote for the resolution of the member for Cheviot. The Hon. E. Kichabdbon would vote for tho resolution. A less reduction than 10 per cent, would not effect any appreciable reduction in the expenditure as a whole, although to some extent it might be regarded as being

rather hard and fast. For that reason, he would suggest that a discretionary power should be left with the Government to make those reductions only when desirable. Mr Hurst thought that Government had met the House in a spirit of liberality, and he was surprised that a suggestion should bo made about taking back the estimates. If they were honest in their professions about retrenchment they would close with the Government at once and proceed with the business. Mr Levin said that they seemed to forget that they wore throwing a most disagreeable task on the Government in leaving the whole responsibility of making reductions. They ought to, bear in mind that they had been the means of placing these high salaried officers in a false position, and it would be very awkward to drag them down from their position so suddenly. It meant, in many oases, a reduction of £IOO or £l2O per annum, and that was very serious for gentlemen who had been brought to occupy a certain sphere. Ho would not feel justified in supporting a wages reduction.^ Mr MoOaughan said that if they did not reduce from the highest to the lowest they would be doing an injustice to the taxpayers. The high rate of wages paid to railway porters and others was absurd. There were hundreds of men throughout the country who could not got work at all, and would be glad to get 20s per week. There were a great many heads of departments who were underpaid ; at the some time there were a number in the service who might very well be dispensed with altogether. Mr Reeves proposed—" That in view of the various opinions expressed, this House recommend that the estimates be remitted to a Select Committee, to consist of Messrs Hall, Grey, Atkinson, Maoandrew, Pyke, and the mover.”

Mr Jones moved —“That the various amendments, together with the estimates, ha referred to the Public Accounts Committee, to report in ten days.” Amendments proposed by Mr Jones and Mr Reeves were by leave withdrawn. The amendment proposed by Mr Thomson was then put—Ayes, 33 ; Noes, 42. Ayes—Messrs Da Lautour, Finn, Fisher J. 8., Fisher J. T., George, Gisborne, Lundon, Macandrew, MacDonald, Montgomery, Moss, Eeid, Seddon, Shephard, Speight, Tainni, Tawhsi, Te Wheoro, Thomson, Tola, Turnbull, Wallis, Jones. Noes—Messrs Adams, Andrews, Atkinson, Bain, Beotham, Bowen, Brandon, Bryce, Oolbeok, Dick, Driver, Fulton, Gibbs, Hall, Hurst, W. J. Hursthonse, Ireland, Johnston, Kelly Levin, Mason, McCanghan, McLean, Moorhouse, Murray, Oliver, Pitt, Richmond, Richardson, Rolleston, Russell, Saunders, Seymour, Shanks, Stevens, Studholme, Sutton, Swanson, Trimble, Whitaker, Wood, Wright. Mr Sbddon’b amendment was put and negatived on the voices. Mr Speight’s amendment was put and lost on a division by 33 to 36. Ayes, 36—Messrs Adams, Andrews, Atkinson, Bain, Beetham, Bowen, Brandon, Bryce, Oolbeok, Dick, Fulton, Gibbs, Hall, Ireland, Johnson, Kelly, Mason, McCanghan, McLean, Moorhouse, Murray, Oliver, Richmond, Rolleston, Bussell, Saunders, Seymour, Shanks, Stevens, Studholme, Sutton, Swanson, Trimble, Whitaker, Wood, Wright. Noes 33. Messrs DsLautonr, Driver, Finn, Fisher, J. T., Gisborne, Hursthouso, Levin, Macandrew, Montgomery, Pitt, Reid, Richardson, Seddon, Shephard, Shrimski, Speight. Tainni, Tawhai, Thompson, Tole, Turnbull, Wallis, Jones. Pairs.—Ayes Messrs Hutchison, Sheehan, Reeves, Pyke, Ballanoe, Harris, Grey. Noes—Messrs Kenny, Whyte, Wakefield, Hirst, Ormond, Fox, Bunny. The original motion of Mr Saunders was then put and agreed to. The House afterwards went into Committee of Supply, when consideration of the postal estimates was resumed. The Hon. J. Hall said that Government proposed to take the votes, as they appeared on the estimates, and provide for the reduction by a clause in the Appropriation Act. Mr Montgomery thought that Government shonld give them the exact words of the clause they would insert in the Appropriation Act.

The Hon. J. Hall thought this demand unreasonable.

Mr Reader Wood thought it more unreasonable to ask the House to vote Government more money than was required. It was asking too groat a display of confidence. Mr Sutton thought that they might safely trust the Government.

The Hon. W. Gisborne said that what they wanted was to know whether a reduction was to be mode from all salaries, or whether it was to he left to the discretion of Ministers. After further discussion,

The Hon. Major Atkinson said it woe a mere matter of convenience to pass the estimates now and as they stood. The reduction would be provided for in the Appropriation Bill. Mr Swanson said he understood that a ten per cent, reduction was to be a reduction of ten per cent, on eaoh individual salary, whether tho receiver was already underpaid or overpaid. Tho Hon. J. Hall said members were obstructing business with a view of reaching the hour at which the House would have to rise. It was, therefore, useless to go on, but Government would ask tho House to rescind the rule requiring the House to rise at 12.30. Ho moved thac progress be reported. Mr Moss hoped Government would not do this. He did not think there waa any desire to obstruct.

Mr Qeoegb thought that the reduction of ten per cent, would have to be made on every individual salary or on wages paid by the Government.

Mr Andbews thought that the reduction should bo left to the Government, Mr Wood said Government should reduce the items voto by vote in terms of the resolution passed. Mr Bowes thought such a proposal quite impracticable. Progress was reported and the House rose at 12.30.