GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXII, Issue 1983, 2 July 1880, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[pub peebs association special wibb] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, Thuesday, July 1. In the Legislative Council, The Hon, Colonel Whitmobe gave notice to move for a return of the detailed public works expenditure from July Ist, 1870, to June 30th, 1879; also how much of the last loan was spent to the 30th June ult. The Hon. G. M. Wateehousb gave notice to aok what the Government intend to do relative to the illegal expenditure of the New Plymouth Harbor Board, also what the Government intend to do relative to the notoriously bad character of the informers em ployed by the police. An. Imprest Supply Bill was passed through all its stages. The Bank of New Zealand Act Amendment Bill was road a first time. The whole afternoon was spent in Committee on the Native Land Court Bill. By 16 to 13 votes, the time in which application for a re-hearing of cases could bo made was extended from three months to six. At five o’clock, clause 63 having been reached, the Council adjourned. HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday, June 30. The following is the conclusion of the Treasurer’s speech : The Hon. Major Atkinson said that so far as their present experience went it seemed as if it (the beer tax) would yield £40,000 less than he had estimated. Tbe estimated Customs duties were £50,000 less than actually received list year. They had increased the duties with regret, and would reduce them whenever they could, but he saw no immediate prospect of being able to do this, Tho House should now address themselves to reducing the estimates under the load of Government. They should then see how much taxation was necessary to balance accounts. They should limit public works expenditure to works calculated to render those already constructed more complete and profitable and the expenditure should bo very gradual, so as to extend tho expenditure of the loan over the next two years. While he was Treasurer tbn House and the country should know exactly what the financial position really was. He denied that he had ever told more than the truth, and every fact he had stated had been amply borne out. Useful and necessary public works must be steadily proceeded with. Having done what ho had indicated, he thought that the House should refuse to pass more than & very few absolutely necessary Bills, and then as soon as possible leave the Government free to commence in earnest the work of reform. There was no need for a panic, but with care, thrift, and attention New Zealand could without much difficulty meet all her difficulties. The local bodies and the people generally must learn to practice the virtue of self-denial. Ho believed that they were willing to do this, and if tho Government succeeded in inculcating this they would feel that their work had not been in vain.

Mr Dk Batons moved the adjournment of the debate, and the House rose at midnight. Thursday, Judy 1. The House met at 2.30 p.m. THIBD BEADING. The Bank of New Zealand Act, 1861, Amendment Bill was read a third time and passed. PETITIONS. Sir Gboegb Obey presented a petition from Auckland, praying that the proposal in the Bioensing Bill re clubs be reconsidered, as also the arbitrary powers proposed to be vested in Bioensing Commissioners. Mr Beown presented a petition praying that the post and telegraph office at Waitahuna be opened at once. NOTICES OP MOTION. Mr Eudton gave notice that he would move in Committee of Supply that the expense of “ Hansard ’’ be dispensed with._ Mr Beeves gave notice that in Committee of Ways and Means he would move for tho imposition of a rate of Id per £ on wool and 5b per ton on all imported coal. QUESTIONS. Beplying to Mr Barron, ■ The Hon. E. Oditbb said that the rule requiring tenderers for railway refreshmentrooms to furnish two sureties of £SOO each, was imposed to secure really respectable men for these rooms, but he would see if anything could be done judiciously towards modifying the amendment.

Eeplying to Mr Murray, CCho Hon. Major Atkinson said that no more transactions with the late £5,000,000 loan are pending under the Consolidation of Stock Act, or will be entered into without this House having an opportunity of reconsidering the matter. Mr Baheon asked if the sole duty of the locomotive engineer was, os stated by the Eoyal Commission on Civil Service, on page 5 of their report, to receive £6OO a year to go into the locomotive shop with an engine that has been found to require repair, and instruct the long experienced foreman what to do, and if not, what additional duties were required to be performed by that officer? The Hon. B. Oliteh replied that at present it was highly inexpedient to discuss the Civil Service report in this way. An opportunity for doing so would bo afforded at the proper time. The House would remember that he answered a question yesterday on the authority of the report made on the subject by the Middle Island engineer, Mr Blair, and its contradiction now showed how inexpedient it was to deal with the subject until they had all the facts before them. Beplying to Mr Ireland, The Hon. B. Oeivee said that Government considered the work of constructing a traffic bridge across the Mataura river, so as to bring settlers into communication with the Waimea Blairs railway, was one which devolved upon local bodies, and the Government would not undertake it.

Eeplying to Mr Tawhai, The Hon. J. Haul said it would post £llOO to extend the telegraph to Hokianga Heads, and Government did not consider that the •work should be undertaken, considering that it would accommodate not more than 300 persons, the most of whom were Maoris. Eeplying to Mr Andrews, The Son. J. Hale said Government would allow the House to reduce the various items on Class 1 (Legislative) on the estimates, av.d would not look upon such reduction as a vote of want of confidence.

Eeplying to Mr Stewart, The Hon. W. Eoelkston said that Government did not see the necessity for supplying an amendment of the law, whereby prisoners committed for trial shall receive a copy of the depositions free of expense. They could have these depositions at present, if they chore to ask for them.

Replying to Mr Jones, The Hon. J. Hall said that 49,000,000 telegraph forms had been imported into the colony since 1873 at a uniform rate of 2s Old per thousand. The lowest tender in the colony was 5s 6d. replying to Mr Wright, The Hon. R. Oliveb said that instructions had been given to the Public Works Department to use no more foreign timber for sleepers. IJIPEEBT STTPPnY. An Imprest Supply Bill to the extent of £300,000 was introduced by message from the Governor and passed through all its stages. NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE. The no-confidence debate was resumed by Mr DeLautoijs, who said that despite what had been said to the contrary, he failed to see that the Opposition could have traversed the proposals without adopting the course taken. He did not desire to see the Government ousted; still he did not pretend to be what was called an independent member. He was a member of a party imbued ■with liberal principles, and was contented to •work on with that party, believing that they would go on and gather strength. He had no wish to see odium cast upon the Government; on the contrary, his only fear was that they would be unduly sympathised with by the country, considering the difficult task they had in hand. Looking back they found that in 1870 the deficiency was half-a-million, and now, in 1880, with the population nearly doubled, the deficiency was a whole million. They had only entered upon a course of extravagance, and ho was only too much afraid that it would still go on. A trifling retrenchment might be made, but ho was afraid it would be only a temporary expedient in the height of the existing emergencies. It was not the people demoralised, it was tha system, and it was that system which was the cause of existing difficulties. When Mr Vogel made his proposals in 1870, ho was particularly anxious that burdens should not fall on landed pro-

perty, and that had all along been the policy of the party with whom ho was associated. The Treasurer, he contended, had attempted an impossibility in finance in his endeavour to make the local bodies independent of the general finance. The mere power to give localities a right to impose a double rate would not effect that object. The only way to do it properly was , to restore the functions that this House had , usurped. The Canadians had got into diffi- , cnlties similar to those into which we had ■ fallen. They decentralised the local functions, and he contended that that was the direction , in which they would have got what should be , done. Ascertain what were the functions they should retain, and then divest themselves of the remainder. Everything had to be done through a paid official, which was one of the crying evils of the system as a whole. There were for instance municipalities that would never have sprung into existence if endowments and subsidies had not been given. Could they not place their large cities on a self-dependent footing, and enable their counties to unite. By that means they would create a spirit of self-dependence, and destroy the system of party Government that had sprung up in conjunction with the central Legislature. Ho would retain for the central power legislative functions, the control of railways, ordinary surveys, the registration of lands, the telegraph and post offices, and the question of defence. Why could they not say to the districts— You can have Post and Telegraph Offices provided you can find a building. The same might be done with the lower Courts. Why not put responsibilities on localities making demands for local requirements. The problem was no doubt surrounded by many difficulties, but they were not insurmountable. He felt convinced that no permanent retrenchment would bo effected until the responsibility of administration was as much as possible thrown on local shoulders. What the Opposition said was, that the Government proposals were not acceptable. The majority of the House had said so, consequently the Government must feel that it represented the minority. Why then did they not throw themselves on tbe guidance of the House, and make all the amendments proposed. The Opposition had shown that they desired nothing for themselves. All that they desired was to forward the best interests of the country. 1 Mr Tons criticised the proposals. Alluding to local finance, he said it was arranged so as to force the Counties Act on the districts, whether they wanted it or not. Then they were to be taxed again to pay Native rates. The debate was interrupted by the 5.30 adjournment.

EVENING- SITTING-. Tlie House resumed at 7.30. NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE. Mr Toiiß continued the debate. Ho objected to the proposed Board of Bocal Workc, and 1 he had no confidence in the Minister for Public Worts, owing to his conduct while in 1 Auckland. The Board would commence with a sum of £150,000, extracted from the con- 1 solidated fund. Its disbursement would have tho tendency so long complained of, that the rich districts would carry off the lion’s share of the money. Then again 1 they had no guarantee that this proposal would be any more final than its 1 predecessors. It would in all probability disappear in time, just as the capitation allow- 1 ance and tho subsidies had done. In the 1 North, he maintained, that they would be ei- . cessively taxed under tho proposals. With 1 retrenchment, the imposition of the income tax, and the duty on wool, they could meet their requirements much more efficiently than by the scheme proposed. It was immaterial to him which Q-overnment was in. All he desired to do was to do his duty for the good of the colony at large. Mr Tamoana said that he would vote against the G-overnment, as he was opposed to their Native Band Bills. i Mr Bundon announced that he would vote | with the Opposition. He criticised tho Go- i vernment policy at considerable length. i

Mr Shbimski asserted as the result of six ’ years’ experience that no member in Opposi- t tion could get justice done to his district. * This he had no doubt would continue to be ? the policy of the proposed Bocal Works 1 Board. He hoped the report of the Civil 3 Service -Commission would be treated with I greater respect by the Government than they a had shown to the report of the Chief En- 6 gineer on the Timaru breakwater. He t strongly condemned the propsrty tax and B advocated an income tax. He also advocated * an export duty on wool. _ 1 Major Haeeis said that they were anxious t that this matter should come to a vote at c once, and he hoped Government would throw ’ no further obstacle in the way ©f getting it ® decided at once. ’ Mr Hamdin said he had intended to have £ addressed the House, affording certain choice I bits of information he had picked up during <■ hia journey to the West Coast. Another - opportunity for doing that would occur, and, £ in consequence, he would waive his right to 3 speak at present. E The House then divided—Ayes, 45 j Noes, £ 30. ] The following is the division list: 1 Ayes. '

Messrs Adams Messrs McDonald ( Allwright McLean I Atkinson Moorhonsa 1 Bain Murray j Beetham Oliver ] Bowen Ormond , Brandon Pitt , Bryce Eiohmond Colbeck ' Richardson Dick Eolleston Driver Eussell Sir W. Fox Saunders Messrs Fulton Seymour Gibbs Shanks Hall Stevens Hurst, W. J. Studholme Hursthouse Sutton Johnston Swanson Kelly Trimble Kenny Whitaker Levin Wood Masters Wright McCaughan Noes. Messrs Barron Messrs Seddon Brown Shephard De Lantonr Shrimski Finn Speight Fisher, J. T. Stewart Gisborne Tainui_ Sir G. Grey Tawhai Messrs Harris Te Wheoro Hutchison I Thomson Lundon Tole Maoandrew Tamoana Moss Turnbull Eeid Wallis Pairs— Ayes. Messrs Wakefield I Messrs Bunny Whyte I Hirst Mason | Noes. Messrs Beeves I Messrs Hamlin Sheehan I Pyke Ballanco j [Four names of members who voted with the noes have not been sent.] THE ESTIMATES. The House then went into committee on the estimates. Class s—Postmaster-General5 —Postmaster-General and Commissioner of Telegraphs. The Hon. J. Haie explained that the business of the Postal Department had very considerably increased. He gave a comparative statement of the two mail services that by San Francisco and that by Suez—showing that the advantages were slightly in favor of the former. There was little or no proposal for increase in this department. In the Civil Service Commissioners’ report a recommendation was made to amalgamate the Post and Telegraph Offices. In only seventeen cases had this amalgamation not taken place. They had during the year made a saving of £719 by amalgamations effected, and they had other amalgamations in contemplation that would effect another £IOOO. Government also proposed to amalgamate the administration of the two Departments, so as to secure more uniformity of system. Little saving could be i effected in the mail contracts this year, as they ran to the end of the present year. When these contracts were terminated i he hoped members would aid them in con- ■ siderably reducing the number and cost of ; these services. The Stella would perform the I round of the Middle Island service quarterly, - when visiting the lighthouses. The Tauranga- . Opotiki service would also be abolished. He j had effected a saving by stopping the special ) train run from the Bluff on the arrival of the . Suez mail. A sum of £13,000 not only t credited but actually paid over to the rail--7 ways for the conveyance of mails, would be - gtiuek out. In all they had been able to . effect a saving of £14,000. The salaries of t those departments were not by any moans g large, and they did the work efficiently. Ho i. moved a voto —General Post Office, £IOOO. s Mr Ehadee Wood contended that it was i. necessary that they should at the outset lay

down the principle of a reduction, which shonld be applicable to the whole of the estimates. Were that not done he believed that no saving would be made at all. What he would propose was a reduction of 20 per cent, on all salaries of £6OO a-year upwards. The General Post Office Secretary’s salary was £6OO. Now that gentleman had no risk. It was a considerable salary punctually paid to one who had no risk whatever. The reduction should be 20 per cent, on salaries of £6OO and upwards ; between £3OO and £6OO 15 per cent., and between £IBO and £3OO 10 per cent. Looking at the number of persons employed in this department he had no hesitation in saying there were too many, and that it would bo found that there were some of these persons who wsre mainly engaged waiting on the others. He would therefore propose that the vote bo reduced to £3500.

Mr Andbews opposed this proposal of Mr Wood. Ho would suggest a 10 per cent, reduction all round.

The Hon. J. Hall thought the method of reducing each vote would prove inconvenient. It would be better to vote the amounts set down, and then take a vote in the House as to the total reduction to bo made in the estimates as a whole. Mr Maoandeew thought that retrenchment should be in the reduction of the number of officers rather than of salaries. Mr George supported Mr Wood’s proposal. The Hon Major Atkinson' said that the committee was quite incompetent to make reductions in the items. The total amount of the reduction being fixed, it should be left to the Government to adjust the reduction amongst the items after fair consideration. Mr Wood said that his proposal would go beyond the percentage reductions ho had suggested. Ho would preface these suggestions by a resolution —“ That in the position of the colony the estimates as a whole should be largely reduced.” Ho would also suggest the abolition of the office of Agent-General; that the honorarium of members of that House should be reduced 25 per cent., and that of the Legislative Council 50 per cent. ; that “ Hansard ” should bo abolished ; that the number of District Court Judges and Resident Magistrates bo reduced ; that the salaries of chairmen of Select Committees be abolished, and no additions to the permanent amounts of salaries bo voted; that a large reduction should be made in the number of offices in the Civil Service by amalgamation and reorganisation, that all Telegraph and Post Offies not paying expanses be closed, and that the defence and volunteer vote bo reduced by £50,000. Mr J. B. Eibheb spoke in favour of the reduction, and said that they should set out from the first with reductions. There wore very few men in the] House in receipt of incomes equal to those paid to the civil servants.

Mr Bowen also spoke of tho importance of deciding upon an uniform reduction at the outset. Unless that was done no saving would be effected. Sir G. Geey agreed that the principle of (he proposal suggested by Mr Reader Wood was the best, and he would support it.

Mr Swanson said that Civil servants -wore ruling the country. They might be Civil servants, but they were moat uncivil masters. Mr Montgomery was in favor of the proposal made by Mr Wood. Civil servants were paid out of all proportion to the incomes of those who had to bear the burden of the salaries.

The discussion was interrupted by the 12.30 adjournment, and the House then rose.