HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Globe, Volume XXII, Issue 1960, 5 June 1880, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Faro ay, June 4. The House met ar 2.30 p.m. NOTICES OP MOTION. Sir W. Fox gave notice of a question as to whether or not the Government had seen published in the L >ndon “ Times ’’ the prospectus of the New Zealand Lind Company, with the name of Mr Bathgate as one of the directors, and as to whether Mr Bathgate went home on private business or on public business. Dr. Wallis gave notice of motion for an amendment in the Regulation of Elections Bill by extending the franchise to women. • LEAVE OF ABSENCE. On the motion of Mr Montgomery, leave of absence for one week was granttd to Mr Turnbull. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Stewart whether or not the Government intend to introduce a Bill to provide for the licensing of labor agents with a view to preventing frauds on persons in search of employment and of placing such agents under the control of the police, The Hon. J. Hall said that the subject would receive consideration, but whether the Government would bo able to deal with the question this session or not he could not say. Mr Swanson asked what action the Government intend to take with regard to the harbor at Auckland ? The Hon. R. Olivbb replied that the lowest tender received tor the work w as £45,000, and the sum at disposal was £25,000, so that the tender could not be accepted. What the Government proposed to do was to go on with the outside wall and culvert of drainage, and aa they were able, proceed with the remainder of the work, for which a further vote would be asked this session. Mr. Gisbobnb asked what course the ■Government proposed to take with relation to the aboriginal Natives committed for trial and now in prison awaiting trial, under a provision of the Confiscated Lands Inquiry and Maori Prisoners’ Trials Act, 1879. The Hon. W. Rolleston replied that the time authorised by Parliament for disposing of this matter had not yet expired. Before the expiry of that time it would be the duty of the Government to come down to Parliament and state its intentions. At present it was not convenient for the Government to make that statement. Replying to Mr Hutchison whether the Government intended this session to bring in a Bill prohibiting Chinese immigration. The Hon. J. Hall said that their attention had been directed to the subject. He was afraid that they would not bo able to deal with it this session, but they would do so at all events next. Replying to Mr Reid, as to what amount was expended on the Hokitika and Greymouth railway out of the vote of £46,500 last session, and specifying the amounts expended before and after the close of the last session, The Hon. R. Olives said that between the Ist of July and the 19th of December last £9952 had been expended ; since then £4OBO. Replying to Mr button, The Hon. R. Olivbb said that surveys had been made by Mr Foy of the railway from Olive to Wallingford, via Kidnappers, at a cost of £366 18s lOi. Replying to Mr Reid, The Hon. B. Oliver said that no report had been received from the Commission on railways, and that the only expenditure on railways at present was the carrying on of contracts already entered into, and the providing of work for the unemployed. Replying to Mr McDonald, The Hon. J. Bbyce said that the recommendation of the Native Affairs Committee relative to Rut a Manuahera’s petitions was now being given effect to. Replying to Mr Pyke, The Hon. R. Olivbb said that £51,000 had been expended on the Otago Central Railway, and it was a mistake to say that £175,000 had been appropriated for the work. Replying to Mr McDonald, The Hon. J. Hall said that it was their intention to discontinue subsidies to local bodies. NEW BILLS. The following Bills were introduced, and read a first time : Pharmacy (Hon. T. Dick), Goods and Chattels Securities, Bills of Exchange, Procedure in Mercantile Law (in Committee), Banks and Bankers (in Committee ; Hon. J. Hall). charitable institutions bill. The Hon. J. Hall moved the second reading of the Hospitals and Charitable Institutions Bill. He said that the effect of legislation had been to create a variety of systems for the working of these institutions. Since the abolition of the provinces, their management had fallen on the Government, and despite their endeavours to the contrary, a very great diversity of modes of working etui prevailed. After detailing the various 1 purposes of the Bill, ho went on to say that a measure of this kind must, necessarily, he opentoagreat deal of difference of opinion, and that the Government would go into committee on the Bill quite prepared to consider every reasonable proposal. Mr Pskb described the Act as a good one, and one on which ho would be prepared in committee to move such amendments as ho thought necessary to make it perfect. Mr Shbphabd spoke of the Bill as a good attempt at legislation on a very difficult subject. He took exception to the method proposed for the election of local Boards, and when in committee would suggest what he thought would be a remedy. The proviso limiting the contribution of the persons maintained in the Hospital to a sum not exceeding 20s was, in his opinion, a mistake. Many persons who would avail themselves of the institution, such as travellers and others, would gladly pay a larger sum. It was con Bistent with his experience that single men overtaken by sickness preferred going to Hospitals, and such persons would have no objection to piy a much larger sum. He suggested that the amoupt should be increased to £2 2s. Mr Montgomery generally concurred in the Bill, and pointed out one or two details which he thought admitted of improvement. Mr Stevens concurred in the opinion that the general principles of the Bill were good. A system of population was, in his opinion, the best to adopt in the fixing of contributions.

The debate was adjourned at 5.30 to 7.30 p.m.

EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30 p m. CHABITABLE INSTITUTIONS BILL.

The debate on the motion for the second reading of the Hospitals and Charitable Institutions Bill was resumed by Mr Hutchison, who said that tho Bill from clauses 4 to 33 would be found to be cumbersome. He recognised the difficulty of drawing a Bill of that kind. Certain clauses he would propose would, he believed, tend to render the working of the Act more practicable. He thought that every person requiring relief should be admitted into the institution at once. Tho question of what district was to be chargeable for their relief should be left over for an after question. His reason for advocating that principle was that every part of the colony was not to be chargeable alike for the maintenance of these institutions, consequently it was but right that the settlement of charges clause should operate. The constitution of the Boards was a most important matter. It was necessary that these Boards should not only be prompt in their endeavors to render relief, but they should also be careful not to destroy in any way that spirit of self-reliance which was one of tho most noble instincts of our nature. It was likewise necessary that groat care should bs taken not to weaken in any way the family tie. Persons on their part should do their utmost to prevent members of their family becoming chargeable to charitable aid. In connection with this subject he deprecated tho conduct of tho Government in attempting to reduce the rates payable for labor. That was economy at tho wrong end, and tended to aggravate the evil that this measure was meant to alleviate. Mr Babkon admitted that the measure as framed was a good one. At the same time, he expressed regret that the colony had arrived at a period of its history when a measure of this kind was needed. Mr AndbkwS oaid that there were clauses in the Bill which ha disapproved of, but they could easily be put right in committee. Sir W. Fox looked on this as one of the moat important measures that could bo brought before the House. Ho could not approve of the Bill to the extent that other members had done. The fault ho found with the Bill was that it dealt with the symptoms, not the root of the disease. In doing so they only succeeded in drawing the disease inwards. It was calculated to promote the taste for pauperism. The poor law agitation in England years ago had this effect. Men were, so to speak, born in pauperism, and they lived and were content to live in

pauperism. After haying grappled for forty years with the evil it was a common saying that every respectable or ratepayer carried so many paupers on his back, The fact was that they had made the mistake of not striking at the root of the evil. How was it that the French peasant was enabled to hoard up his money. It was this ; that they did not indulge in the habit of frequenting the bar parlor; they did not indulge in horse racing or sweepstakes; they did nothing of that kind. The only amusement they indulged in was a game of dominoes in a little parlor on a Sunday afternoon. They used the most rigid economy in their expenditure, and persevering industry in their labors. If they could rescue the money that was at present paid for drink, if the Licensing Act proposed by the Government was amended in certain directions, then that would be striking at the root of the evil. Lot them close some at least of the public-houses and remove the temptation at present existing for drinking and shouting, let them enquire what were the tendencies to pauperism, let them ask Relieving Officers and Governors of Reformatory Schools and other public institutions, and they would be told that it was drink which must be attacked if they would remedy these evils. Then they would grapple with the evil, they would bo striking at its very root, instead of merely trifling with it, or, rather, encouraging pauperism by means of a Rill of this kind.

Sir G. Geey said that Providence had brought one essential aid to his side that night in the speech just delivered by the previous speaker. He had traced out the evils of pauperism as it existed in Britain and then contrasted it with the state of the population in France. It was true that pauperism of the most dreadful kind existed in Great Britain. The Premier had admitted this was a poor law. He maintained that a poor law ought not to be at present required in this country. The description of the French peasant with his small holding of land presented a striking contrast to the English pauper. The great difference was this : the latter had not a little plot of ground he could call his own and had no home. He was an outcast looking at a starved wife and family. It was a sad picture, which made him resort to drink. Teat was the secret of bis sinking so deep in the social fcale. Now what were the facts of the case in New Zealand ? The Government and their friends had gridironed the country and done other things to prevent the poo* man acquiring homes litre as in France. He thought the tendency of our legislation was to create a pauper population, and to make men drunkards and outcasts. He believed that if the previous speaker would only reason out his own arguments to their own reasonable conclusions, he would most assuredly come round to bis side of the House, and take care that not another acre of Native Imds were grasped for the purpose of acquiring great landed estates to the detriment of the population as a whole. In some of the countries referred to by the Premier in support of his p oposed poor law scheme, the chief scheme for taxation was drawn from the Bid. For instance, in Belgium 20£ per cent, of the taxation was taken from the land, but in New Zealand land was made to contribute next to nothing. He agreed with the previous speaker in thinking that this Bill was calculated to promote pauperism. If the Government would tear up their Native Land Bill and bring forward Bills for the purpose of promoting bona fido settlement, instead of promoting Piako Swamp jobs they would do more to prevent pauperism, more to prevent drunkenness, than all the charitable aid schemes could possibly do.

The Hon. W. Rolleston said that the reception this matter had met with convinced him that the country was now content to settle down to practical legislation. The question was one which had different origins ; therefore it required to be dealt with by different methods of treatment. The distress contemplated to be relieved by the measure before the House had had a variety of origins, for instance, indiscreet immigration promoted by the Government was one. Another want was that arising from the vicious habits of the population. A third was that which arose from accidents and disease. Each of these demanded different modes of treatment, and he claimed for the measure as having made ample provision for each of these cases. Sir W. Fox had spoken of certain evils which ought to bo dealt with as striking at the root of the evil, such as drunkenness and horseracing. He had to remind them that it was these evils in their secondary consequences, in their consequences upon the wives and families of the guilty men, with which they were mostly called upon to deal. What they had to do was to face the evil as existing, and he claimed for the measure that it would effect that object through its local bodies. By assisting the Government in making the Bill a complete measure they would do a good service to the country.

Mr DeUautoub could not agree with the Bill. It would boar particularly hard on the province from which he came. Outside DuF.edin all hospitals reared by the hands of the people would fall. They had not been in the habit of looking upon their hospitals as semiworkhouses, but as institutions provided by their forethought, and into which they could go without sacrificing their independence of character. As an administrative Bill it was bad. They were raising up new bodies responsible to nobody. It was to local bodies that they had to look for cheeking a tendency to pauperism. Again, unnecessary expenses and extravagance would be the order of the day, as it had been .in connection with their educational system. The Government ought to know that making grants without the exerciea of direct control by the Government was o very great blunder, one which had led to most serious abuses. In Scotland it was found that the out-door relief system had been the means of aggravating the evil of pauperism, and yet, with that fact before them, this Bill proposed to confer that power of out-door relief upon the dispensers of the Bill. He deprecated the combination of charitable relief with relief to accident and disease contemplated by the establishment of hospitals. This was an attempt to forego the system which had been established in his province, viz., the province of Otago, and place them on the footing of the Canterbury system. The Bill was calculated to create pauperism of the worst kind, and was fatal to our institutions as they existed. Bor these reasons he would oppose the motion. Other speakers had given the Government credit for good intentions in framing the measure. Ho would like to see good acts and not good intentions. The Hon. R. Olives spoke in support of the Bill. He maintained that the Bill was designed to foster a spirit of independence, and would tend to the more perfect management of charitable institutions.

Mr Speight thought that tho Bill had been presented to them in a straightforward manner. Still he took exception to a number of its provisions. The Hon. J. Hall denied tho statement that the Government desired to reduce the price of labor. When Government wanted labor it paid the current rates. When it did not want labor it provided, so to say, for those who were unemployed a kind of subsistence. It was right that the terms under these circumstances should bo such as to induce tho parties so situated to accept them for as a short period as they possibly could. In reply to the objections stated by Sir W. Fox, he said that they had a disease, and that it was absolutely necessary that they should deal with the disease as it was present with them. Had the evil been fever they would be bound not only to eradicate it, bnt take steps for the euro of tho afflicted. He denied the full necessity for encouraging habits of sobriety and thrift amongst the population. IE there was one man in New Zealand who had done much to encourage tho accumulation of large estates that man was Sir G. Grey, and yet he took every opportunity of twisting the subject so as to make it a weapon of offence against the present Government. It was curious that he should condemn a Bill which tho Government of which he was the head had prepared. Mr DoLautour not only sneered at the Bill, but sneered at those who had gone tho length of giving the Government credit for good intentions. He could not have read the Bill, or he would not have spoken as he did. He spoke about the tendency of the Bill to induce tho erection of extravagant buildings, the same has had been done under the education system. The fact was, however, that tho two were widely different. Under the education system districts provided no part of the fund, while under the Charitable Aid Bill, as proposed, districts would have to tax themselves to provide one-half of the money. He looked to local taxation to avoid any tendency of the kind. Tho motion was put and carried on the voices.

At 10.15 p.m. the House adjourned.