DEPUTATIONS TO MR ROLLESTON.

Globe, Volume XXII, Issue 1872, 23 February 1880, Page 3

DEPUTATIONS TO MR ROLLESTON.

o THB TTNITBESITr SENATE. A deputation from the New Zealand Universify Senate, consisting of the Chancellor (H. J. Tancred, Esq.), Hon. W. Gisborne, Rev. O. Fraser, Bev. Mr Stuart and Bev. Mr Habens, waited on the Minister of Education on Saturday, after the Senate adjourned, in the Library of the Canterbury College. The Chancellor of the Senate stated the subjects which they, as a deputation, had been authorized to bring under the attention of the Minister for Education, namely, the desirability of establishing a prop r connection between the University and the various hospitals, in view of the establishment of medical schools; also of placing the reserves set apart for higher education in such a position that they might be utilised as intended when they were so set apart. The Bev. Dr. Stuart, in regard to the first matter, remarked that it was necessary the medical school should have free access to the hospital. He stated what had been the experience in Dunedin, where a difficulty had originally been experienced with the Hospital Board, but had since been surmounted. He pointed out that it was impossible the teachers of anatomy and surgery could properly fulfil their functions without students and professors were admitted to those institutions.

Mr Bolleston asked whether it was considered that the officers of the University ahould also be officers of the Hospital Board.

Dr Stuart replied in the affirmative. Mr Fraser said it was highly necessary that the officers appointed by the University ahould have all due facilities afforded for imparting instruction to the students, to whom certain wards in the Hospital, might be opened specially. Mr Gisborne suggested the advisability of meeting the case by inserting a clause in the Charitable Institutions Bill, making a suitable arrangement between the respective bodies mentioned, so as to provide for the utilisation of the Hospitals in connection with the Medical School.

Mr Bolleston said he had never experienced any doubt about the object to be obtained, but he confessed there still appeared to be some difficulty connected with it. He should like very much to have some guidance from the University Senate on the matter, as they were obviously in a position to form a good opinion concerning it. Here the Medical School, as he understood it, originated with the officers of the Hospital, whereas in Otago the University took the initiative. If the Senate would indicate how in their opinion, by formal resolution or otherwise, the object sought after could best be attained, it would prove of great assistance to the Government.

Dr. Stuart explained with regard to Otago, that the Provincial Government gave the University the freest access to the Hospital for all medical purposes. When, however, the Hospital Board was established, a little difference arose; but that was satisfactorily eettled. Still there was a possibility of there being another Board who might renew the difficulty. Mr Bolleston—Do you know how they manage in Melbourne and Sydney ? Dr. Stuart—There an Aot of Parliament gives them access to the hospitals. He also ■explained the customs prevailing in Edinburgh.

Mr Bolleston —Does your system contemplate attaching the students to the hospital ? Dr. Stuart—The students must walk the hospital so many sessions. In reply to another question from the Minister, as to the recognition by the authorities at home of the medical students here,

Dr. Stuart explained that they were recognised through their teachers, who obtained special recognition on application to the corporation of Edinburgh. Mr Gisborne said the Senate were anxious that the principle of establishing a proper connection between the University and Hospitals should be recognised. Mr Bolleston—A recognition to that effect would be obtained by a clause in the Act providing for the Government making such arrangement. Dr. Stuart submitted-that the proper plan would be, in cases where medical schools were established, to instruct the hospitals to place one or more wards at the disposal of the lecturer or professor of surgery, and give due facilities to the students.

Mr Bolleston pointed out that in the case of laying it down rigidly in the Act that so many wards should be given, a great many technical difficulties were likely to be raised. His impression, therefore, was that it would be better to recognise it generally that arrangements should be made to the end desired as occasion arose.

After some further conversation, Mr Bolleston promised that the representations of the deputation should receive careful consideration, and it was understood that the Senate would make recommendations with the view of the matter being dealt with by Goverriment.

With regard to reserves for higher education, the deputation represented the necessity of taking measures to render the reserves available for purposes of these institutions in various parts of the colony. Mr Rolleston said the question had been raised at a late period of the session, and a doubt arose as to the appointment of trustees, that doubt turning upon a somewhat subtle interpretation of the law. Mr Gisborne thought it might be presumed that the Act enabled the Government to appoint trustees. Last year the Minister of Lands told them that fresh legislation would be required. They had petitioned Parliament and applied to the Government, but at a late stage of the session. Their object, however, was to induce Parliament to adopt fresh legislation if such were neoessary ; on the other hand if trustees could be appointed under the existing law, it should be done as eoon as possible, no utilisation of the lands having taken place since 1874. What they wanted to secure waß that some revenue might be accruing from the reserves. He also referred, to the 20,000 acres of land promised at Tauranga, which had been taken for the purpose of a special settlement, and that land was taken out of the schedule of the Act of 1875 passed to confirm the fromisej a 3 to reserves for higher education, n the petition sent to the House, it was urged in relation to this matter, that higher education had a claim to some compensation or equivalent for the land so appropriated. Mr Bolleston, in reply, alluded first to the last matter spoken of by Mr Gisborne, namely, the Tauranga reserve, and pointed out that it was a question whioh rested with the Legislature at the time, and they threw it out. With regard to the question of the reserves generally, the Attorney-General had made a minute to the effect that fresh legislation was required. He promised that their ■representations should be duly attended to. CHEIBTCHTJECH OlTif COUNCIL. A deputation from the Ohristohurch City Council waited on the Minister for Lands this morning, introduced by Mr E. O. J. Stevens, M.H.B. for Ohristohurch. The deputation comprised Councillors Ayers, Hulbert, Bishop, Taylor, and the Town Clerk. Mr Stevens briefly introduced the deputation, stating that the object of their visit was to bring under the notice of the Government the unfavorable position of Christchurch in the matter of reserves for municipal purposes, as compared with other cities of a similar size in New Zealand.

Or. Hulbert said that the purport of the deputation waß to bring before the Government the unfavorable position occupied by Ohristchurch with respect to revenues derivable from municipal endowments as compared with the other cities of the colony. Had the Minister been anyone but Mr Bolleston, it would probably have been necessary to have gone into a lengthened explanation of '(Si matter. But he (Or. Hulbert) thought tnut Mr Bolleston, from nis long connection with the provinces, would be fully aware of all the circumstances of the case. It therefore only remained for him to read to Mr Bolleston a statement which, though hurriedly collected, was nevertheless correct, of the endowments held by other cities of the colony SB compared with Ohristchurch, the amount of rate paid in the £l, and the acreage value and rental derived from the landed estate owned by each. In 'doing so, he would shortly comI inent on the items, so as to afford Mr Bolleston every information on this important point. He thought it could scarcelv be denied that Ohristchurch had been very hardly dealt with in the matter of municipal reserves for endowment purposes by the predecessors of Mr Bolleston, both General and Provincial. When he came to quote the amount receivable by the municipality of Ohristchurch from the reserves which had been given to it, Mr Bolleston would at once see that it was patent that to enable the municipality to carry out their works, sanitary and otherwise, whioh were so necessary, they mußt _ receive from the G-eneral Government that aid in the way of endowment to which they were clearly entitled. As the population increased so would the demand for works, sanitary and otherwise, and they would find themselves in the position of having large works to carry out without the means, except by rating the people, of doing so. He would now invite the attention of Mr Bolleston to the figures he had referred to. „ In Dunedin the rate was Is 3d in the pound; the acreage of reserves 1600 acres ; and the annual rental derivable therefrom £3OOO. This, he would desire to point out, was from endowments pure and simple, and not from any real estate. Mr Bolleston—That does not include the Princes street block ?

Or. Hulbert thought not, but the Town Clerk would be able to say. Mr Haskins said the estimate did not include the block referred to by Mr Bolleston.

Cr. Hulbert proceeded to say that in Wellington the rate wes 2s 18d in the pound; the acreage of Municipal reserves 1016 acres, valued at £112,000, from which a revenue of £3780 annually was derived. But in addition to this Wellington had real estate valued at £276,000. In Auckland the rate was 2s 3d in the pound, the acreage of reserves being fifty acres, valued at £IOO,OOO, from which a yearly revenue of £427 was derived. Judging from the value attached to the Auckland reserve he (Or Hulbert) presumed that it waa town property. Then they came to Napier, where the rate was 2s 61 ; the reserves 2029 acres, valued at £7575 ; and the revenue derivable from which was £427. Ohristchurch, with a rate of Is lid in the pound, had 3101 acres of reserves, valued at £16,675, and producing a yearly revenue of £156. He would ask Mr Eolleston to compare the revenue derived by Ohristchurch from its municipal reserves with that of Dunedin, Wellington, or Auckland. He (Or Hulbert) might state with regard to the figures he had quoted that the reason why such a small rental as £156 was derivable from the reservesvalued at £16,675, was that the selections comprised in the land granted had been very badly made. The 2000 acres selection last made had been ascertained by the reserves committee of the Council to be practically valueless for years to come. It was poor land, and likely to be unproductive for some time. It had been submitted to auction for leasing, but had failed to elioit a single bid. This, as Mr Bolleston would observe, was 2000 acres out of the whole reserves possessed by the City Council amounting to 3,101 acres. Then there was 90 acres of Sandhills, the only uae for which was a place of deposit of night soil. That would explain to Mr Bolleston how it was that so small an amount of annual rental was received compared with the extent of acreage of the reserves. As regarded the rates payable in the different cities mentioned in the comparative figures he had given, he would point out that in Dunedin the Is 3d in the £ covered all rates payable, whilst in Ohristchurch the city rates, including only 7d of the drainage rate, was Is lid in the £. Besides this the Council had in contemplation works of a highly necessary character, -which would greatly increase the amount now payable in the £, so that the position of Ohristchurch was this : That they had every probability of a large increase in their rates without any means beyond the ratepayers' contribution to meet them, unless means were taken by the Government to relieve the ratepayers, as now asked by the deputation. The object the deputation had in view was to ask the Government to plaoe Ohristohuroh in the same position as regarded endowments as was occupied by other cities of the same size and population in the colony. He took it that it was only right for the Government to render such assistance to municipalities like Ohristchurch in deab'ng with a young and growing city as should enable them to carry out works, sanitary and otherwise,whioh were so urgently needed as the population increased. If the Government could not see their way clear to grant the request of the deputation, then they would desire to ask that a Boyal Commission should be appointed to examine into the matter and report upon the statements made as to the present position of Ohristchurch compared with other municipalities. If this were done, he felt sure that the Boyal Commission would report to the Parliament that the case of Ohristchurch was one deserving their considera* ion. It must be recollected, speaking of the amount of rates, that the Is lid which they now paid in Ohristchurch only included the drainage rates up to 7d in the £. The rates, as stated for other municipalities, included all that were payable, so that if the whole drainage rate were payable, as it would be, the total rate would be about 2s 6d in the £.

Or. Bishop said the Is lid included the drainage rate as far as it was at present struck, but it was increasing yearly, so that really they would find that the rate would r--ach up to 2s 4d in the £. Besides this, they would soon be called upon to pay an additional'ls 7d in the £ for works which were in contemplation. Mr Stevens —Or a total of about 4s in the£?

Or. Bishop—Yea; that will be about the amount.

Mr Bolleston asked the deputation whether they came to him as the Minister of Lands for a land endowment for Christchurch, or as a member of the Ministry, to bring generally under the notice of the Government what he (Mr Bolleston) was already fully aware of, viz., the unfavorable condition of Ohristcl «';h as regarded municipal reserves compared with other municipalities of the colony ? Or. Hulbert said they came to Mr Bolleston as a member of the Government to get them to place Christchurch in the same position as regarded reserves as others. Mr Bolleston said he did not think the appointment of a Boyal Commission was at all necessary, as the statement of the deputation was perfectly clear, and it was undeniable that the position of Christchurch at the present time was a very disadvantageous one. The question was what was the Government to do under the circumstances. Were they to give a land endowment, and if so, where ? They could not do so in the city, as the Government did not possess sufficient now for building purposes. Besides this, the Legislature in 1878 had decided by Act that no more roferves should be granted for municipal purposes. Mr Stevens said the Legislature had limited the endowments to 2000 acres irrespective of the size of the boroughs. Mr Bolleston—That was by the Act of 1876. But when it waß found that there was an evident desire for the creation of boroughs all over the country to get this 2000 acres quite irrespective of whether they were necessary or not, the Legislature decided to put a stop to it. It was felt that there would be a difficulty in giving away the lands of the colony to municipalities in this way, and the Legislature by the Act of 1878 decided to grant no more. Mr Stevens —It would, I think, require an Act to do what the deputation require. Mr Bolleston —No further reserves could be made without legislation. Mr Stevens would like to enquire if Mr Bolleston had considered the matter with a view to giving more relief to Christchurch. As Mr Bolleston would see from the Btatementsjof the deputation, it was really a very serious matter, as he (Mr Stevens) had often urged upon the Government. Mr Bolleston was well aware of the position of Christchurch, as he had it before him frequently, but he also desired to point out

that there were a number of difficulties in the way of the Government dealing with the question. Mr Stevens quite recognised the difficulties alluded to by Mr Bolleston. As he had pointed out to the gentlemen of the deputation, it resolved itself into a question of rating power. But if the Government would undertake to appoint a committee to consider the matter and to report upon the whole question as affio iig boroughs of a certain size, with a v ew of putting them on a footing of equals y as regarded endowments, it would relieve the Government of any charge of favoritism He (Mr Stevens) would move for such a committee himself, but, as Mr Bolleston well knew, there were many difficulties in the way of getting a motion forward by a private member which would not apply with regard to the Government.

Mr Bolleston—Such a course might result in a general scramble for the lands of the colony. He would bring the matter before his colleagues, and he need hardly say it would receive his best consideration. Ho might say that the question had been before every Ministry who had gone into it. There was no doubt the case of Ohristchurch was an exceptional one, but he did not think they would be able to get it dealt with exceptionally. Or. Hulbert desired earnestly to impress upon Mr Bolleston the fact that to them delays were dangerous in the extreme. Every year their burdens were increasing, with no corresponding increase from their endowments to aid in meeting them. As regarded other municipalities this was not the case, as every year the value of their properties increased, and consequently their revenue also. Mr Bolleston said all he could promise to do was to bring the matter under the notice of his colleagues. They had a very active member in Mr Stevens, who would not let the matter drop. He might say that he had had similar applications from other municipalities which he had visited, but that he had not held out any hopes elsewhere, and he did not see how he could do so here, as it was impossible to disregard the decision of the Legislature as conveyed in the Act of 1868. Or. Ayers desired to point out that at one time Ohristohurch was one of the richest municipalities in the colony as regarded reserves, and if they had their rights they would be so now, but their reserves had been absorbed by the Provincial Government. Mr Bolleston did not dispute that for one moment. The present position was this : That Ohristchurch was less provided with reserves of any city of the same size in New Zealand. The question was, how was this disparity to be remedied. They would see that the solution of the question wbb surrounded with considerable difficulty. The land fund was the only revenue available. [Mr Stevens—Or the land.] Well, the land really meant the land fund, and then came the broad financial question which it would be found very difficult to settle. Or. Ayers thought that if a committee were appointed, as suggested by Mr Stevens, they would be enabled to lay before the House such a statement as would show the necessity of some consideration being shown to Ohristchurch. At present they had to go into the market to borrow money for works, and the only pledge they were enabled to give was the pockets of the ratepayers. They, therefore, were borrowing at a great disadvantage, which would not be the case if, as was the position of other municipalities, they had real estate, when they would be enabled to borrow on more favourable terms.

Mr Stevens thought that as the Government were likely to consider the whole financial system with regard to local bodies, they might take into consideration the case of those who only had subsidies to depend upon, in addition to rates locally raised. Mr Bolleston said he thought the only thing the dep"tation could expect him to say at present was that he would fully represent the matter to his colleagues. At the same time he did not wish it to be understood that he saw his way clear to meet the views of the deputation by granting further reserves of land. He fully recognised the position of Ohristchurch—a position which it had drifted into through not securing reserves when other places had done so. The deputation having thanked Mr Bolleston then withdrew.

BOABD OF EDUCATION. A deputation, comprising the chairman of the Board of Education and several members of that body, waited on Mr Bolleston with regard to the financial position of the. Board.