GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXI, Issue 1807, 5 December 1879, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Thuebdat, December. 1. After tho formal business, a largo nuinbor of minor Bills wore brought from tho Lower House, and read a first timo. On the motion for tho second reading of tho Wellington Te Aro Reclamation Bill, there was a debate of an hour aud a half, in which twelve members took pirt. Ultimately tho Bill was read a second timo, by 20 votes toll. The Mines Act Amendment Bill, and the Canterbury Church Property Trust Bill were read a third time. Second readings—Land Act Amendment Bill, Imbecile Passengers Act Extension Bill, and the Electric Telegraph Act Amendmont Bill. A largo part of the sitting was in committee, on several unimportant Bills, and tho Council rose for tho day at 5.30. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tnr/BSDAY, Decembeb 4. The House met at 2 30. the election teleoeams. Mr Macandbew brought up the report of the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the conduct of the Government in making known the contents of certain telegrams on election matters, which it was alleged wore paid for as private messages and ought not to have passed into the hands of the Government. The Committee resolved that it was their opinion that seven telegrams in a sealod envelope accompanying the report ought not to have been laid on the table of the House. The report set forth that five of the messages were originally paid for by the sender, and forwarded through by the Department to the destination of Ministers, and two were sent through by mistake of tho Telegraph office. These messages had been sealed up and left untouched. Seventy-six telegrams had been sent and received by the Government on election subjects. Mr Montgomery asked tihat the evidence be read. He might add that tho report was not a unanimous ono, as thero were three on one side and four on the other.

The reading of the report was opposed. The Speaker, in reply to a question, said the telegrams would remain in his custody until the House decided what course should bo adopted in reference to them. The motion to read the evidence was withdrawn in favor of one to print the same, after which the subject to be disoussed by the House.

Mr Speight asked what redreas the senders of the seven telegrams would have, and also by what right copies of those-messages were allowed to be taken by members of the House after they had been entrusted to the caro of the Speakor. Sir Gkokge Gebt said it was-clear that the resolution of the oommittee was only that of part of the committee, and if the chairman had been able to vote there was no doubt the votes would have been equal, and the casting vote in his favor. He (Sis George Grey) moved—" That the resolution of the committee, not adopted by them,, be read to the House." Mr Stewabt seconded.

Mr Wakefield opposed- the reading of minutes or resolutions not adopted. In answer to Mr Speight be might say no copies were taken o? telegrams, oo far ao ho was aware. Mr Geobgb hoped the report of the committee would not be agreed to. Mr Sutton opposed the reading of the minutes.

Mr Hislop said he understood that the opinion of the law officers of the Grown was contrary to the opinion hold by the head of the department. The latter held that the telegrams ought not to have been produced before the House, and bis opinion was entitled to more respect than the committee seemed to have attached to it. He hoped the House would see that tbe subject was important, especially as the opinion of a member of the Government seamed to have bean taken in preference to the opinion of tbe gentleman at the head of the department. Mr Bowbn said the statoment that the report had been referred to the Government was as aocurate as some of tbe rumours they had heard about the lobbies. The Pbeiiieb said he did not think it worth while to reply to much that had been said which was a mere throwing of mud in the hope that some would stick. He would oppose the reading of a y part of the report, believing that the proper courie was to have the whole minutes printed. Mr Speight regretted that questions be bad aßked were not printed. He knew the messages now sealed were not so sealed yesterday, when in hon. membsro' hands before the committee. It was no small matter that the secresy of the department had violated, and it came with bad grace from Ministers that an answer should not be given. Mr Macandbew said, with tbe exception of the seven sealed telegrams, all the messages had been peiU3ed by the committee and loft with the clerk unsealed. The motion to read tho minutes of the previous day's proceedings in committee was then put and the division taken, when the ayes wero 32, and tbe noes 51. Mr Tolb said that no denial had been given by the Government to the charge that the draft report of the committee had been submitted to the Governmont. It was true that Mr Bowen had given it a oontradiction, but he was not authorised to do so, and he must believe that the Government were made awaro of the contents of the report. Ho should therefore move as an amendment to the motion to lay the report on the table—" That a Salect Oommittee be appointed to enquire into the allegation that the Government were made aware of the contonts of the report prior to its adoption." Mr J. B. FianEß seconded.

Mr Wakefield denied that any person had any knowledgo of the contents of the report before it was adopted by the Committee. He drew up the report, and was quite sure no person could have been informed of its contents except by himsolf, and he would assure the House that not a scul knew anything of it. Mr TotK said after this explanation, ho felt bound to withdraw hij amendment.

Mr Sotiok oontended that any member had a right to copy any message whilst before the House, Ho had taken a copy of one. Mr Pitt said the messages were not copied whilst the Committee eat. They wero only read once, and wore sealed up each evening. The question that the report be printed, with the minutes of evidence and minutes of

proceedings, was about to be put, when Mr Sutton moved to add the words, " The telegrams," but afterwards withdrew the addition. Sir Q-. Grby thought the telegrams should be added, and would like to know the contents of the messages sealed up, which he understood were not doalt with in any way. He would move as an amendment —"That the report be referred back to tht Committee,

in order that details of the senders and the addresses of the sealed telegrams might bo recorded in the report." Mr Montgomery said ho believed all informa'ion would be found in the minutes and evi ience.

Mr GeobGE said tho information was necessary if any injured sender wished to prosecute for a violation of telegraph secrecy. Mr SnuKHiS said tho House had been called upon to condone a felony. The telegrams had been illegally obtained, and the culprits having found out their mistake, caused them to be sealed up, and wished to return them after making what use thoy thought proper of them. If he did not know a way to open that package, ho should not sit still under it, but he knew a powor higher than the H use or Speake-, in whoso custody they wero, and he should uso that power to find out who took the telegrams from (he office, and what whore tho means of publication in one rewapaper in New Zealand. Ho knew that ono of the telegrams sealed up had been sent to a newspaper. He maintained that as tho commiltco decided that certain messages were unlawfully laid upon the table of tho Houso, thoy had a right to knew whose messages thoy wero. He contended that the return laid on tho table ought to have boon returned to the House in the samo manner as it was received. Ho asked tho Speaker's ruling on that point. Tho Speaker said he did not think tho oommittee had exceeded its functions in separating the telegrams. Mr Siieeiian maintained that tho return should havo ben brought back in the same condition as it loft tho House. There was nothing to show that tho soaled packet contained telegrams. The Speaker said ho understood all tho telegrams had been returned.

Mr SnEErrAN contended that he should decline to receive other than tho package sent from the House to the committee, and would like the Speaker's ruling ai to whether he was satisfied he had got back all tho telegrams which left tho House. The Speaker said it was for tho House to deal w'th tho telegrams and the package.

Mr GisiiOßNE said tho function of the committee was not to commit a further breach of law by divulging the contents of private messages. If tho House chose to do so, the Committee would not. Sir G. Grey obtained leave to withdraw his amendment in order (hat another proposition might be submitted. The Premier said they had no objection to printirg tho minutes. Mr Finn* moved as an amendment to replace Sir G. Grey's—" That tho Speaker open tho sealed packages received from tho Committee, and that thereafter tho packets lie on tho table of the House." Mr Macandrbw eaid this all arose from tho refusal to allow tho minutes as':ed for to be read. He regretted this watte of time. Mr Sr/Tio>f said, if this Mmndiuent was negatived, tho telegrams could not be laid on the table, and he thought that was what an hon. gentleman wanted. Mr Fisher moved that tho sealed packet bo oponed and the names of tho senders and receivers of telegrams and dates of same be communicated to the House. Mr Oliver oppoocd this course. He maintained that it was a scandalous pervers:'o ) to say these telegrams wero wilfully produced in tho first instance. Mr Shbimski maintained that the p r> version was on tho part of Ministers. Mr OLlVEß'denied this emphatically. Mr Brown said ha understood the packet contained one of his messages, and he would like to know if that was tho case. Mr Reeves moved the adjournment of the debate, which was loai on the voices, but a division was interrupted by tho hour of adjournment. EYENING 03TIING. Tho Houso resumed at 7.30 on the Orders of the Day. PAPERS AND NOTICES. The Premier laid on the table the census returns of tho colony for tho paßt year. Major Atkinson brought up a return of tho land tax collected, and statistics of the colony, which were ordered to be printed. Sir G. Grey gave notice to ask the Government if it was true that tho Te Puko block of land, in tho Bay of Plenty, had been disposed of. SDTPLY. A resolution reported from the Committee of Supply was adopted. property assessment bhvl. Major Atkinson moved the second reading of the Property Assessment Bill. He said tho first thing to be decided was whether the proposed tax was fair and reasonable, after its ueccssity had been affirmed. However much they might regret the necessity of the tax, there was no doubt they had gone as far as they could with indirect taxation, and it was for them to find out what property there was, and what should bo taxed. There was no doubt that men with similar experience had come to directly differont conclusions as to the necessity of taxing property, and the general conclusion was it was more prudent to fix property directly, instead of income derivable from property. Those who had studied the matter well find that tho inquisitorial nature of an income tax was infinitely greater than in tho case of tho property tax which thoy proposed to introduce. There was no difficul'y in arriving at tho value of property, but with income it was not so easy. In estimating his income, when giving a return, a man would havo to expose all hie affairs to Government authorities,.but und'r the tax, as proposed, no such inquisitorial inquiries would be made. In one case a man was compelled to expose tho naturo of all his transactions, but in the other tho matter rested with himself entirely. A man with a thousand a year would pay the tax thereon, and if he saved £SOO out of £IOOO, he would again bo taxed on his savings. So it was a tax on thrift and industry as well as upon income. The property tax was not levied to catch anyone, but partly for the purpose of adjusting tho revonuo. If they put sixpence per lb on tea, a man with a small income sometimes consumed as much as one with a larger, and therefore the former paid unequally. When they were told particular persons would escape the tax, tho reply was, it was not meant to catch everyone. The poraon who spent his money was caught under tho net on in direct taxation, if ho did not contribute on property. It might bo fairly asked, what property was proposed to be taxed ? and to this he could reply, that groit care was found necessary in the matter. Tho principle was to levy tho tax upon all property of whatever description a man might bo pleased to invest in. He hoped thoy would hear no such cry as that the unearned increment of land was not taxed, because, not only was that taxed but all other property. They should seek to do away ' with tho injustice of imposing a tax on all land because some p?rsons choose to speculate in land. He considered it was an injuatico to tax an important part of the community, in order to get at those who speculate in land. Ho would like to explain a few of tho provisions of the Bill, which had necessarily bean drawn rather hastily. The main principle was to tax all a man possessed, except £3OO. It was proposed to value by means of a Government valuer all real property, personal property to be valued by the person himself. A return would bo furnished to bo filled in by the person. If the Commissioner did not cousidor the return correct, tho person would be called on to substantiate his return before three reviewers, sworn to secrecy and altogether disconnected with the Government of the day, and independent of them. Tho proporly of j local bodies was exempt, but works of art or books wero not exempt beyond tho £3OO, which was intended to cover personal effects rather than provide that all personal effects should be exempt. Law libraries could not be exempt, and aB they were tools of a profession, so also the tools of a tradesman could not bo exempted. There was an error in the Bill which he desired to point out. It was proposed that mortgagors should pay tho tax, and recover from mortgagees, which would have the effect of double taxation in some cases, and tho committee would be asked to alter this so as to collect from the mortgagee instead of the mortgagor. As to companios whose head offices wero not in tho colony, they would bo asked to mako a declaration of their capital, as as to bo placed on an equality with thoso having their head offices in the colony. He hoped the House would not mix up the questions of taxation and their financial condition. The Govornmont should be placed in a position to put their hands on so muoh taxation as would meet the requirements of the colony. Thoy had no idea of levying a tax of Id in tho £1 upon property. In the Bill before them no sum was specified. They wished to levy each year sufficient to meet requirements and provide for the public creditor, and not to over-esti-mate their probable expenditure. They would uso every endeavour to reduce that expenditure during the reoess, but they felt it WM

desirable to calculate it on the basis of last year's expenditure. If they levied a penny property tax the first instalment could not be lovicd before next August, and when they met in May they could reduce the amount to whatever was necessary. It was possible the loan would not bo floated till March, and they would bo in a muoh better position if they were able to say that they had provided by increased taxation a way to make both ends meet. "When the estimates of income and expenditure wore before thorn they could reduce as they thought proper. He hoped they would determine that the property tax should bo ao available as to give a certain revenue. [Cheers.] Mr Baleancb commented on the statement that the penny tax was chiefly made for the purpose of raising the credit of the colony in tho London money market. In order proporly to deal with the question, tho whole financial proposals Bhould bo traversed.. Tho Treasurer informed tho House that an incomo tax was moro inquisitorial than a properly tax, but ho failed entirely to afford any proof in eupport of the statement. There wero a largo number of companies in Now Zealand in which very considerable capital was invested, mining companies for example, which had no incomo. Now this Bill would full as heavily on concerns yielding Bmall incomes as on those paying large ones. They had evidence that tho land tax, which was condemned by tho Treasuror, was being resorted to by other colonies. If thoy eliminated all objections from tho land tax incidental to its inauguration, then ho would say they had adopted a tax acceptable to tho whole country. Thero was great danger in suddenly changing from one tax to another ; yet that was precisely what the Trousuror proposed to do. If a scramble were to be permitted in committee ao they had partly been prepared for by the Treasurer, tho Bill would emerge from committee in a Bhape very different from what it professed to be. Tho credit of the colony depended, not as tho Treasurer would load them to suppose on one tax, but upon tho wholo system of taxation. They had been told it was. to be a shifting lax, small in prosperous times, and heavier at other times. Ho contended that taxation was not called for. A sum of £200,000 had been miscalculated ia tho estimates. A largo amount of the reported deficiency was duo to tho manner in which tho Treasurer brought down his slatement. Ho saw no reason to reduce the estimate of revenue by £250,000, as tho Treasurer had done. The lato Government wore blamed for not calling tho House together earlier than they did. He however contended that there was no reason from a financial point of view for doing so. Ono chargo made against the lato Government wa3 that it lived on tho land fund. It was the present Treasurer who first established tho principle of bringing lauds into tho public account in 1875. Mr Ballance went on to show that tho late Government had lived on that fund to a far less extent than the previous Government. Even now tho present Government had not ceased to exist on tho land revenue. He thon proceeded to defend the estimates which ho prepared when in office, and which he said were as correct, if not more correct, than tho estimates of any other Treasuror in Now Zealand. Ho questioned very much if tho estimates of the present Treasurer would prove so correct. Ic would be romembercd that thoy estimated the land tax to yield £IOO,OOO, and it realised £DS,OOO. He held that the deficit should bo £57,000, inEtead of £845,000, as set firth by tho Treasurer. Now he hold that tho first principle of taxation was to meet tho liabilities of tho colony with tho lowest tax poesiblo under tho circumstances. Ho then criticised very narrowly the details by which the Treasuror arrived at his permanent deficit, contending that several very serious miatakos in computation had been made, which would largely lesson tho defioit, amounting altogether to £70,000, and, accordingly through this and other discropencies, he contended that the net deficit was £318,799, and that was all that was required to be provided for by taxation. He then criticised the estimates of the Treasurer at great length, to show that thoy were arrived at without duo consideration of the sources from which they were derived, and this was eminently conspicuous in the margin of tho land tax, on") that waß thoroughly sound in principle. He feared that in the present oscillating between two descriptions of taxation, the interests of the people as a whole must materially suffer. [Loud applause.] On the House resuming at 10.30 there was a very thin House, and, nobody rising to speak, the Speaker called upon the Treasurer to reply. Mr Shbimski pointed out that it would be very improper to go to a division on so important a question without a more general expression of opinion. He then condemned the statement recently made by the Treasurer as calculated to seriously injure tho credit of the oolony in tho London market. He pitied tho people of the colony if the Bill became law.

Mr Macandhew said after what they had seen already in the Houso of the Government majority affirming the financial proposals, they had only to record their votes against what he might call tho "desiccating furnace" to which tho people of New Zealand were about to be introducod. It was a great pity all moans ha I not been exhausted before thoy had recourss to taxation worse than that at Home, and which mado him feel like looking round for some other country where taxation pressed lejs heavily.

Mr Hutchison could not understand the conduct of the Govornmont, and must raise his protest against the course adopted. The tax proposed would raise up a perfect regiment of spies, whom it would be difficult to get rid of after tho tax was repealed, as it undoubtedly would bo. He was surprised that a .new country should come to a tax which was so great and bo vicious in principle. It included stock-in-trada and everything which a man possessed. Stocks varied, and some persons with small stocks did more than others with larger ones, and in other cases slocks were held for a rise. He believed the whole thing would turn out to be a premium on fraud. As to the secresy of commissioners, he did not believe in it. They would have a state of things which would be very undesirable, arising from tho operation of the tax. He ventured to say there was no necessity for tbis system of taxation, or even for taxation to this extent. It was the duty of tho Government to reduce their expenditure in proportion to their income without the taxation proposed. He saw no difficulty in making a saving of £50,000 in the Public Works Department, £IO,OOO in the Native Department, £SOOO in the telegraph to! India, £25,000 on rewards and aids to gold discoveries, which he did not think would bo required, £SOOO on printing, and £72,000 on tho vote of £284,000 f jr our West Coast standing army. The £IO,OOO for contingencies, Colonial Secretary's office, ought to be reduced, and £12,000 for sheep inspection. The army of Resident Magistrates ought to bo reduoed. Ono half the land tax would bo collected if tho other was abandoned, and this would add to revenue. Ho would not refer to the unearned increment, of which they had heard so much, but he would say they would do well to hold to a land tax in a country where land was used as a means of producing wealth. From this source they had £157,000, and what would go far towards making up tho deficiency. Instead of rushing into a vicious system of taxation, it would bo better to take this year's land tax, which would suffice, with tho reductions proposed, to meet their deficiencies and answer all purposes necessary. Mr Tttbnbttli, said they had been told increased taxation was necessary to raise the credit of tho colony—a most extraordinary statement. He maintainod that tho reductions mado in the estimates when passing through tho House, and those proposed by the member for Wanganui would amount to £110,320, which would go far towards enabling thorn to do without the proposed taxation, because to this might be added land tax £157,000, and other rciuctiono. On theso grounds ho should vote against the Bill, becauso ho did not believe thoro was any necessity to lay these heavy burdens on tho people. Ho would counael his side of the House to have nothing to do with the proposal, but allow the Government and their supporters to carry tho measure unaltered, so far as they were concerned. Mr Dick said he was sorry so litHe interest was taken in this important matter. It was of serious import to the country, and would be regarded as such outside the House, if not within it. Ho did not agree with the proposal of the Treasurer. Ho did not object to the principle of the Bill, which he regarded as an improvement over the land tax, but it was irregular and unjust in operation. There was no means of getting at those making money I in various ways, but the poorer people had no means of escape. He thought the_ late Government made a mistake in their cheap breakfast table proposal. He did not think

education should be altogether free, becauso £IOO,OOO couia be easily saved by this means. Then there was a considerable inorease due from improvement in trade, the effect of which they were beginning to feel. The proposed property tax would increase tho burdens of the mortgagee, and tend to keep back money from Home to a greater extent than under present circumstances. He quoted a large namber of spocial items on the estimates to show that the year was an exceptional ono, and the possible deficit in 1881, which Ministers thus provided against, was not likely to occur to tho extent suggested. Mr J. T. Fisher considered the tax most unjust. He had been adding up his tax on a little over ono thousand acres of land which he farmed, and found it would amount to £SO por annum from all sources. This was an intolerable burden. Mr Harris said he concurred in tho remarks of tho last speaker. His own experience was tho same.

Mr Saunders followed, and was speaking at tho timo of closing the telegraph office.