GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXI, Issue 1798, 25 November 1879, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Monday, November 21. The House met at 2 30 p.m. PETITIONS, MOTIONS, EBPOBTS. Several petitions were presented against the increase of tobacco duty as excessive, Mr Sutton presented a petition from four Native representatives to the effect that a sum of some thousands had been paid to the credit of the legal expenses, and drawn out by the Hon. Mr Bussell and Mr Sheehan without their accounting for the same to the satisfaction of the petitioners. Mr Siieimski gave notice to ask if Mr W. J. Hurst, mentioned in the estimates as receiving £BO odd for certain services, was the W. J. Hurst, member of this House. Mr Reeves gave notice to ask if it was the intention to appoint an Inspector of Mines. The Reporting Debates Committee recommended that the speeches be condensed with consent. Mr Andrews gave notice to move for a reduction of five per cent on all salaries (inclusive of legislators) above £2CO per annum.

QUESTIONS. Mr Hamlin asked the Government if they will introduce and pass through all its stages an Act to indemnify George Buckland Worgan for any evidence he may give before the Native Affairs Committee tending to criminate himself, if advised by the law officers of the Crown that such a course is necessary for Worgan’a protection. The Pbbmibb said it was not advisable to do so until all the facts were before them. Mr Bowen asked the Minister for Public Works whether he will cause a platform to be erected at Bangiora on the Oxford railway at the western belt of the Borough of Bangiora. Mr Olivbb said he would make enquiry into the matter, with a view to the erection of the platform. . . Mr Bbis asked the Premier whether it is the intention of the Government to take steps to place the civil service of the colony on a more satisfactory basis in regard to increase of salaries, in order that the present power in the hands of under secretaries and heads of departments may be somewhat curtailed. The Pbbmibb said enquiries would bo made as to the salaries, but he did not think that any satisfactory arrangement could be made with regard to the latter part of the ques-

lion asked. Mr Bowbn asked the Minister of Public Works whether the improvement on the railway station at Kaiapoi, and the formation of a railway siding to Baven Quay, promised two years ago, will be soon taken in hand. Mr Olivbb said enquiry would be made. Mr Mtjbbat asked the Minister for Public Works if he will lay before this House the report of the Engineer upon the BrightonKaitangata and Outram-Clarendon Railway. Mr Olivbb said the report would be laid before the House.

Mr Hutchison asked the Government whether they will be prepared to call for tenders from local tradesmen for the supply of the saddlery required by the mounted division of the Armed Constabulary. The Pbbmibb said it was not worth while to do so. Mr J. B. Fishbb asked the Government if they will make enquiry during the recess as to the desirability of their acquiring tho Wellington and Westport Colliery Company’s extension of Westport and Ngakawhau Railways. Mr Olivbb said the Government recognised the importance of the work, and would make enquiries into the matter. _ i Mr Ebevbs asked the Government it they will cause immediate action to be taken, in order to have the lira extinguished which had been burning for some years past in a coal mine near Point Elizabeth, on the West Coast of the Middle Island. Mr Olivbb said the Government would cause enquiry to be made, and take steps, if possible, to have it extinguished. Mr Sheehan asked the Minister of Lands whether or not it is the intention of the Government to open up any portion of the Aroha block for sale and settlement, and if so, when would it be for sale and settlement; and what proportion, if any, of the lands when sold will be offered under the deferred payment system. Mr Kollbbton said this would bo done as soon as the railway works had further progressed, and a portion would be on deferred payments. Mr Sheehan asked tho Minister of Education whether he will place a sum upon the estimates for the Thames High School, in tho same manner as provision is being made for the Auckland Girls’ High School, Wellington College, the New Plymouth High School, and other similar institutions. Mr Bollbsion said tho Thames school had not been started yet, but next session steps would bo taken to place all schools on an equality. The Auckland school was established under the provincial system, and needed immediate aid as well as other similar schools. Mr Shanks asked the Government whether they will decline to accept the services of any more artillery companies until those already in existence shall have been fully equipped with small arms and guns. The Pbbmibb said the companies in existence would be considered to have a prior claim to any which may be formed. Mr Shanks asked the Government if they intended to secure the services of an officer of the Reyal Artillery as instructor to the officers of the New Zealand Volunteer Artillery. The Pbbmibb said an inspecting and visiting officer was already appointed. Mr Bain asked the Minister of Justice if he will issue instructions to the Registrar of the Supremo Court at Invercargill to register mining companies there, in accordance with the opinion expressed by the Premier on Friday last. The Pbbmibb said he intended to introduce a clause for this purpose in the Mining Companies Bill Amendment. Mr Ballancb asked the Colonial Treasurer if he will lay before the House a return showing the amount of land tax annually ■ payable on lands held from the Crown on lease and license in different land tax districts.

Major Atkinson said he had no objection to do so. Mr TUBNBCXn asked the Government it they would lay before the House returns showing the amount of land tax payable in each of the provincial districts. Major Atkinson said he had no objection to do so. Mr RichabdSon asked the Government if they will ask the Horae authorities to send a search vessel to look for the Knowlesley Hall, now long overdue, and will cause search to be made at the Orozei Islands for traces of the. vessel. The Pbemieb promised to see to the matter. BILLS INTHODUOED. Leave was given to introduce the following Bills:—(Mr Finn) —Bill to Amend the Appeals from Justices Act, 18G7. (Mr Finn) Marriid Women’s Property Bill. (Mr Thomson) —Bill to Amend the Inchclutha Act, 1878. (Major Atkinson) —The Property Assessment Bill. Mr Macandbbw gave notice to move an alteration in the Standing Orders. • SBCOND EEADINSS. The Debtors and Creditors Act, 1876, Amendment Bill, and Members’ General Assembly Expenses Bill, were read a second time. On the latter Mr Kexxy said he thought the Legislative Council ought to have been permitted to take their own course in the matter, instead of having their honorarium fixed for them by this House. The order for going nto Commitee of Supply was postponed until 7.30.

EEGULATION OF ELECTIONS DILL. The House then went into Committee on thsJEl -gulatioa of Elections Bill. On ctauso 28 a division was taken on the question to omit the words “ For any electoral district in the colony ” from the question put to persons offering to vote, viz., “ Have you already voted at the present election for any electoral district in the colony.” The chairman put the question that the words proposed to bo omitted stand part of the question. Ayes, 28 ; noes, 32. The clause then stood, “Have you already voted at the present ele-tion.” Mr Mintoojieey proposed to add the words “in more than ” after the word “election,” and a division was taken with the following result: —Ayes, 29 ; noes, 30. The question was lost. The Pbemibb then proposed to add the words “ in this electoral district ” after the wo'd “ election.” Carried. Messrs Qeobob and DeLautonb suggested that the words “ more than twice ” bo added, in order to restrict the nnmber of votes. Mr Swanson thought too fact that the elections were fixed for one doy should bo sufficient. Mr J. B. Fisiieb proposed to add the words “or more than twice in the colony” after the word “district.” A division was taken, with the result: Ayes, 29 j noes, 31. The clausa was negatived. The Pbemibb proposed to amend the now clause, to the effect that any person who should give a false answer to the above question shall be guilty of an indictable offence. Carried. The amended sections of clause 28 wore then adopted.

Clause 32 was then proposed as follows : “ Every voter before leaving the inner compartment shall fold up his voting paper so that the contents cannot be seen, and after showing the Returning Officer the official mark thereon shall then deposit the voting paper so folded in the ballot box.” It was proposed to omit the words “and after showing the Returning Officer.” But the question was negatived. Clause 33 was then proposed—“ Every voter for the district may vote for any number of candidates at an election, not exceeding the number of members then to bo returned for the district, but give more than one vote to each such candidate.” Mr His lop proposed to add the words “ nor bo allowed to vote at more than three electoral districts at a general election.” A division was taken on the proposal— Ayes, 26 ; noes, 27. Mr Stbwabt charged the hon. member for Geraldine with inconsistency in voting against this question after declaring in favor of it. Mr Hislop hoped the time of the House would not be wasted in pointing out the inconsistencies of the member for Geraldine, because ho did not know whore it would end. The clause as printed was adopted. The proceedings were interrupted by the 5 30 p.m. adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed. WANT OF CONFIDENCE. On the motion to go into Committee of Supply, proposed by the Premier, Mr Maoandbew said he intended to propose that the financial proposals of the Government are unsatisfactory. It had been stated that the deficiency of expenditure was such as to leave in debt two millions on the 30th of June next, whilst the papers laid before them showed that the engagements were not in reality more than £666,000. This was n species of finance which he was at a loss to understand. Nor could he understand why a depreciatory telegram on this subject should Lave been sent home calculated to injure the colony in the money market. It was proposed to equalise the expenditure with the revenue by raising the latter to meet the former. There was no attempt to reduce the expenditure, but rather the reverse. The estimates were not those of the late Government, as stated, but the de-

partmental estimates. He held that the taxation of the colon; was quite as much already as they could bear. They might be reduced, but additional burdens could not be borne. He would not support increased taxation to keep up extravagant expenditure. He had always opposed this, but knew that it was almost useless to oppose it until the death adder stared them in the face, or waited until the shoe pinched. They should really use the pruning more than the tax gatherer, in order to provide for our necessities, but ho knew they would not have recourse to this until necessity stared them in the face. They were in a similar position in Otago during tho gold fever, and the crisis came. The result was a wholesale reduction, and he had to suffer a loss of popularity at tho succeeding election in consequence of the steps then taken. He some time ago proposed a reduction of 25 per cent, off salaries, and he could not walk on the wharf without hearing “ There goes flve-and-twenty per cent.” He knew the difficulty of such a step. It might be heterodox finance, but it was sure, and as such claimed their earnest attention, unless they were determined to tax the community far beyond what they were able to bear, which of course might induce individual hardships. But if stern necessity demanded it he would not hesitate. He would give the servants thus disposed grants of land, in order that they might become producers instead of drones. The phiase “ financial revolution” was likely to bo misapprehended. What he meant by it was, that those who contributed to the revenue should have tho spending of it. He regretted that tho public works proposals were not before them, because if they were, and he anticipated they would bo unsatisfactory, then tho financial proposals would bo doubly unsatisfactory. This House had wantonly dispensed with the best system of local self-government they possessed, and they were suffering the consequence. It would take them all their time to get the ship of State back again into smooth water. Ho would not occupy their time, but would move —“ That the financial proposals of the Government are unsatisfactory.” Mr OsiVBB said the proposals were eminently unsatisfactory They admitted that, but they also knew there was no escape from it. They h r d sought, however, to adjust tho taxation in such a manner as to mike the burdens fall alike equally on those who pay them. They had net overlooked the property class in the colony in their arrangement of the taxation. When they took office they found estimates ready prepared, but they were the most extravagant ever seen in tho colony. They showed an increase in every department, and they had been compelled to give every civil _ servant notice that they need not expect any increase. They sought to administer tho service of the colony much more cheaply than before. The change of confusing the estimates between two millions and £666,000 was only made for a purpose, because there could be no doubt that the highest figures were unfortunately correct, and proof of this would no doubt be forthcoming at tho proper time, and it would be found that when the engagements were provided for there would be very little of the five million loan to be used for public works. If the lata Government had remained in office six months longer they would have had to resort to a policy of repudiation. That was his firm belief. Ho had confidence in the support of the House to support their policy, because they had shown a sincere desire to meet the difficulties in which they were placed Mr Monxgoiieev said he wished first to refer to a personal matter. He had charged the country, or the Colonial Treasurer, with a similar anticipation of revenue to that he now deprecated in others, and been told he was wrong. He had since gone into the matter, as no explanation had been vouchsafed by the hon. gentleman, and ho found that of the loans negotiated between 1870 and 1874, amounting to seven millions, the excess of expenditure was four millions. The finances of the colony at that time were such that tho financial

agents even pointed out the mess the colony was in consequent upon anticipating loans. The Treasurer told them that the falling off in the land fund taught them an important lesson, and warned them against using that fund in the manner it had been expended recently. The object was to show that this expenditure had only recently commenced, whilst the fact was the reverse, because the expenditure had formerly been met by the issue of Treasury bills, which would be added to their national indebtedness. They never had money to meet necessary expenditure without recourse to these bills, and the Treasurer professed to continue to make such provision. The fact was the late Government did not enforce taxation book enough upon property improved by railways. If that had been done four years ago, when he referred to the necessity, they would not have been in their present position. They had teen living in a fool’s paradise and had the.r eyes opened at last, but the state of this was due

more to the system of finance inaugurated years ago than to any extravagance of the late Government. He held that economy in expenditure was a sure mode of relief; but he objected to the Government after six weeks’ of office, coming down with the same estimates, when the necessity had been shown for greater economy. It would bo impossible to raise sufficient to meet expenditure in the present condition of the finances without the issue of Treasury Villa. Ho considered the property tax would bo very injurious to the colony. It was even proposed to tax. improvements, but the runholding class was not sufficiently taxed, because the small holder voold have the burden fall on him most heavily. He objected to the finance of the Government, because it proposed to pay the debts of the financial period by Treasury bills, and held out no prospects of departmental reductions. Colonel Teijible considered the finance of the last speaker of an antiquated character. The Government told them they should meet the deficiency by increased taxation, but the late Government told them it was better to slur over their condition in view of an application to the money market. He maintained that the Government which faced the matter boldly would he most appreciated by the Homo and country. They were told that their difficulties were not the creation of yesterday, although no attempt was made by the late Government to meet the deficiency of its own creation. He would support the Government, because they had given to the country a plain, unvarnished statement of the finances of the colony. Mr Thomson regretted that all the misfortunes of New Zealand should be attributed by the Treasurer to the late Government. It appeared to him that the colony had been drifting without anyone in charge for the past few months, and all they could do wa« to look on and note the latitude and longitude. It was well they should look at their position. When he became a member of the House, their interest and sinking fund was half a million per annum, but now it was a million and a half. Then the indebtedness of the colony was seven and a half millions, now it would soon be between twenty-eight and twenty-nine millions. They should look these facts in the face.

Sir G. Gbey said the course taken by the speakers to-night was the one side accusing the other of shortcomings. They should combine to readjust the finances. The Government had shown no spirit of economy. They brought in a Bill for payment to members of the Legislature of the sum of £420. Why should the Legislative Council be paid at all. They had no election contest, no extra expenses, and were appointed for life. Why did Government not reduce all salaries, even that of the Governor himself. The English Government would reduce the Governor’s salary, would dismiss him at a moment’s notice. Under our circumstances there wes a fair excuse for such a course. Then the Ministers might suggest a reduction of their own salaries, but no such proposal was made. Next lot them turn to the proposals of the Government. They stated the deficiency as between eight and nine hundred thousand pounds. It was stated by the member for Waitemata that land was not different from other property. He held different views. The land was like

no other in the world. It produced everything which rendered life valuable. Man could not live without it. There was no analogy between the two, and a law of the kind suggested was not applicable to this colony, tinder an income tax a man would commence to pay taxes from the time ho had something to pay it with ; but under the the other system, which was the most obnoxious, he commenced when his income had not commenced, and this was unwise. He knew of no more pernicious tax than this. They also had their pictures and books taxed, so that everything which delighted the eye or improved the understanding was discouraged in a country still in its infancy. This law would prevent progress in New Zealand. It would be easy enough by an income tax to touch only those who did not gain their living by bodily labor or mental effort. They had a right to see taxes imposed upon land, which had become valuable through no effort of the owner. It was proposed to impose school fees upon those least able, and in many cases unable, to bear them. The land was the great source of taxation. There was no merging of the tax with that of the property tax. It was a legitimate source of increasing the revenue. He would tax tho acreage—so much for 1000 acres, 2000, 3000, and so on. Up to this time there had been no full discussion of tho effect of tho proposed taxation, and until that discussion had taken place he thought they should not interfere with taxation. He should move that the debate be adjourned. The Speakbb said it was not in order to do so at that stage. Major Atkinson said he would endeavour to answer those who bad been supposed to attack the Government. He would first deal with what the last speaker said. The bon. gentleman had told them it was proposed to interfere with the present system of education, and ho wished to know in what way. The Government had no intention of interfering with tho present system, but the suggestion came from the leader of the Opposition and the late Minister for Lands, as a suggestion for relief in their present difficulties. It was easy enough to tell them that tho deficiency was slight, but it was not attempted to tell them how to get out of the deficiency. The land tax was merged in tho present Bill. They said the land was not the only property to he taxed, but they did not neglect to tax it. They were charged with taxing improvements on land, but the fact was that in every income tax the land was valued according to improvements. They had given their pledge to use their utmost exertions during the recess to inquire into the means of reducing expenditure in all departments and in taxation. As to the estimates they found them ready to hand on entering the Ministry, but knew nothing of them nor whether they had passed the Cabinet. They had asked for reductions, and had promised to reduce them still further when they found out during the recess how they could do so, consistently with tho efficiency of the department. Tho hon. member for Akaroa knew that when he came into office at the lime reierred to by him the expenditure had been incurred, and he took immediate steps to check the expenditure for tho future. He was surprised at the statement of the hon. rxember for Port Chalmers. He had laid a return before the House showing in detail the appropriations for all sums above which it was proved that tho loan was absolutely engaged up to the amount named by him. He had an engineer’s report to show that in addition to all this, a. proposal to spend £1,600,000 was to he brought before the House. And yet they were told that the deficiencies would not be anything like the amount represented. No reason had been given to show why they should pass the resolution before the House. It was true the financial position of the colony was unsatisfactory when looked at from any point of view. But they were not responsible. Their responsibility rested upon the hon. gentlemen who brought tho resolutions. When they found fault with the proposals of the Government to relieve the country from its position, it was only reasonable they should lay before the House something in the shape of proposals. But this had not been done, and until it was no notice could be taken of tho proposition. The £200,000 of Treasury bills issued were the result of former extravagant and wasteful expenditure. He would ask tho House whether the late Government were not responsible for the present difficulty, seeing the wasteful expenditure in Native and other departments. He thought they would take this view of tho question, and show no sympathy with the motion of the hon. member for Port Chalmers, which was intended as a vote of want of confidence in the Ministry. Mr Moss reviewed the financial proposals. He pointed out that new duties were upon articles most commonly used, and amounted to 3 1 4d in the pound on such things oven as paper collars, toys, and marbles. He held that any attempt to increase the Customs revenue would tend to decrease the consumption. Tiny were called upon to find this money to meet the falling off in tho land fund of tho colony. Direct taxation had been promised them years ago, and was not the creation of the present Government. He contended that the land fund was largely liable for taxation, and not the Customs to the extent proposed. Ho thought they

should regard a property tax as a necessary measure to adjust the incidence of taxation. The deficiency of £910,000 should not be got out of Customs, unless they wished to prostrate trade and injure the colony. Mr Tb Whbobo thought hen. member* had been acting like children for the past few days. Instead of the House acting in this way they should try and da good to those out-districts which needed assistance.

The motion for adjournment was then put and negatived.

Mr Tubnbull contended that the utmost extravagance had been shown in the Public Works expenditure for some years past, and loans, instead of being a benefit, had become a burden to us. The adjournment of the debate was then proposed. Major Atkinson opposed the adjournment, and hoped the House would not consent to it, A want of confidence motion had been brought forward, and ought not to be kept hanging over them. Mr Sheimski said the late Colonial Treasurer was not well, and hud been obliged to leave, end as ho had been attacked, it would bo only fair to postpone the debate. Mr Stuwakt said Mr Ballanco was not well, and it would be a graceful act to allow him an opportunity to speak on the question. Mr Rolleston said there would be plenty of opportunity when the Bills were brought down, as it was really not a question of the result of the motion, because they all knew what that would be. Mr Montgomery supported the adjournment of the debate. Messrs Hamlin, Macandrew, and Harris hoped Ministers would not consider this in the light of a want of confidence motion hanging over their heads, because that was not the impression sought to bo conveyed ia asking for an adjournment. The adjournment was then put and negatived. Mr Stbwabt spoke in support of the amendment of the hon. member for Port Chalmers, and soon after the attention of the Speaker was called to the state of the House, there being no quorum present. The ringing of the bell brought in members from the lobbies, and a quorum being present, the debate was proceeded with until the hour for closing the telegraph office, 2 a.m.