GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXI, Issue 1770, 22 October 1879, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, October 21. After formal business, Mr Whitaker proposed that the Council should only take the unimportant business on the Order Paper, and leave all debateable matter postponed from day to day till the no-confidence question was settled in the Lower House. The Council agreed to this course. First readings—Dividing Fences Bill, introduced by Mr Waterhouse, and Liverpool, London and Globe Insurance Bill, sent from the Lower House, In reply to Colonel Brett, Mr Whitaker said the Government would erect a telegraph station at Kirweo, Canterbury. In moving for a return, Mr Waterhouse spoke at length on the greatly increased cost of raising loans, which had more than trebled in some instances, too many persons having pickings. He moved for the return so that public attention might be directed to the question. The motion was carried. On the motion of Mr Campbell, a return in detail was ordered of the expenditure of £7OOO on the Civil list last year for Native affaire. "MV Miller moved for a Select Committee to inquire into Native land purchase expenditure for the past fifteen months. Messrs Waterhouse and Pollen spoke strongly on the Government entering into heavy obligations for land without Parliamentary authority, and considered a radical reversal of the policy necessary. Mr Watbehousb said the present unauthorised obligations amounted to nearly a million. Dr. Pollen said the late Government acted in direct contravention of Parliament on this matter. Mr Williamson thought there should be free trade in land, with precautions against speculators getting large blocks. After a long discussion the committee was appointed, with the understanding that it is to suggest remedial measures for the present unsatisfactory state of matters. The Council rose at 3.45. HOUSE OF EEPEESENTATIYEB. Tuesday, October 21. The House met at 2.30. SECOND readings. The Napier Swamp Nuisance Act Amendment, tho Primitive Methodists’ Temporal Affairs Management, and the Te Aro Eeolamation Bills were read a second time. ELECTION PETITIONS, The Selection Committee on the petition against Dr. Wallis and Mr Hurst reported the following to be the names of the Petition Committee : —Messrs Colbeck, Gisborne, Bain, Johnston, Swanson, Montgomery, and White. Tho following members were sworn in as members of the Petitions Committee on the petition against the return of Sir G. Grey for Christchurch: —Messrs Allwright, Oolbeok, MoOaughan, Fulton, Stewart, Moorhouse, and Tawhai. Mr Hall asked the Speaker if Mohi Tawhai was not disqualified from acting on the committee in consequence of a petition against himself. The Speaker was not aware of anything likely to render him ineligible to act. To-morrow, at 11 a.m., was fixed for hearing the above petitions. MISCELLANEOUS. Mr Eolleston, in reply to Mr Ireland, said it was intended to open land for settlement at Wuikake as soon as it was in the hands of the Government to deal with. Mr Hall, in reply to Mr Wright as to whether he will introduce a Bill to amend tho Debtors and Creditors Act so as to give artisans and laborers a preferential claim for wages due to the extent of three months instead of one, said legislation was desirable, and a Bill would be introduced on this subject. Mr Oliver, in reply to Mr Whyte, said steps would bo taken to construct shoots for coal at the Bail way Wharf, Auckland, and the wharf Onehunga. Mr Hall, in reply to Mr Finn, said it was intended to establish daily communication between Queenstown and Arrowtown if possible at a reasonable rate. Mr Eolleston, in reply to Mr Finn, said the Government would open a survey office at Arrowtown if it was considered advisable on enquiry. Major Atkinson, in reply to Mr Finn, said the Government might have on intention of taking steps to amend the land Tax Act, but could net say for a week or two if it was intended to repeal it. Mr Oliver, in reply to Mr Andrews, said it was intended to take steps towards a new survey for tho East and West Coast railway in the Middle Island.

Major Atkinson, in reply to Mr Seddon, said quarterly returns showing the expenpenditure on and receipts from water races constructed by the Government would be furnished.

Major Atkinson, in reply to Mr Seddon, •aid the Government could sot cause

quarterly returns to be published showing the amount of gold produced in each riding of the several counties in proclaimed goldfield, as it was impracticable, but the amount of gold within boroughs where there are goldfields was given. Instructions to receivers of goldfields revenue and gold duty, to pay direct to the credit of the county or borough funds the amounts due from 'this source, would be given, if it was possible to carry it out.

Mr Seddon suggested that gold buyers should be licensed. Major Atkinson said he would confer with the goldfields’ members, with the view of improving legislation on the subject. Mr Hall, in reply to Mr Seddon, said it was intended to bring in a Bill this session to amend the Counties Act, but not until the Electoral Bills were disposed of. Major Atkinson, in reply to Mr Seddon, said a return showing the igold exported from the colony to September last, and the duty paid thereon, the shipping ports, the place to which it was exported, and, as far as possible, the number which the adult population on the gold-fields averaged each year, would be found already published, except the average referred to ; but if desired he would lay the same on the table. It was usually sufficient to print the same in the “ Gazette.” Mi- Bbbtham asked the Speaker whether his motion re the petition against Mohi Tawhai could not take precedence, and a committee be appointed to dispose of it at once. The Speaker replied that it could not be disturbed in its order.

Leave was given to introduce the following Bills : —Mr Finn, Bill to constitute a Board of Trustees and vest in it certain public reserves near Queenstown, Otago, for purposes of a race-course; Sir George Grey, Bill to enable the Government to grant sites for working mens’ clubs ; Mr Sheehan, Dramatic Copyright Bill; Mr Bunny, Wairarapa Eacecourso Exchange Amendment Bill; Captain Bussell, Hawke’sJßay Eivers Amendment Bill. THB ELECTORAL BILL. The interrupted debate on the question that leave bo given to introduce a Bill to amend the law relating to electors qualified to vote at elections of members of the House of Eepresentatives, to which the “ previous question” had been proposed by Mr Sheehan, and the debate adjourned, was then called on. Mr Hall explained that the Government had exhausted every course of conciliation between themselves and the Opposition, and were not prepared to see anything done until these Bills had been proceeded with. They believed the voice of the House was with these Bills, and felt certain the country was with them in asking that these Bills should at once be proceeded with without further delay and obstruction. The question was about to bo put by the Speaker, when Mr Hall said he wished to reply to a few remarks made when the debate was on. He deprecated the charges made against Ministers by the member for the Thames, especially those tending to a personal character. They claimed to be actuated by honest and patriotic motives, and regretted this had not been carried out by others, especially by the hon. member for the Thames. That gentleman had said that his Excellency was guilty of an unconstitutional act, but he seemed to forget that he was responsible for the message on which the alleged unconstitutional act was founded, because he was at that time his Excellency’s adviser. The hon, gentleman, when himself the Governor of the colony, had dealt with the matter of recommendation of Ministers’ successors in the same way as his Excellency did. The hon. gentleman had] charged him (Mr Hall) with acting unconstitutionally in resigning his seat in the Upper House to take a seat in that House. He said he (Mr Hall) had broken faith with her Majesty in doing so. This was absurd. The hon. gentleman had said he did not know that he intended to contest a seat when he resigned, but the fact was he resigned some time before any election, and his intention was welljknown. He had been accused by the hon, gentleman of being a representative of the Canterbury land ring. Now he was the only person who had spoken of such a ring, because it did not exist. They had endeavoured to promote the beneficial occupation of the waste lands of Canterbury, and that was what their action had been most successful in accomplishing. But the hon. gentleman’s laws did not do that, and his regulations were rejected. Where these regulations were in force, outside the Canterbury block, large estates had been accumulated atssmethinglikeTsfidan acre. The Canterbury block was 40s an acre ; at the same time £20,000, offered for 20,000 acres, was refused, even when they were necessitous. That gentleman went outside the block and obtained, under Sir George Grey’s land regulation, 80.000 acres for a much less sum, and yet the hon. gentleman now accused them of being a great land ring. The Ministers themselves were really only cockatoos. Mr Eolleston said the charges, especially against himself, were base calumnies. The people of Canterbury had honored him repeatedly, and they knew whether the charges were well founded or otherwise. He would not trouble himself to answer such charges, but treat them with the contempt they deserved. The hon. gentleman (Sir G. Grey) was deposed, but had met his fate at the hands of those who were called his true and faithful friends, and that was not an enviable position. He could conceive no position no more humiliating. He saw opposite the member for Dunstan, who had not only reversed his vote, but spoken against them rather severely. He spoke of their measures as brummagem, but he had no doubt he would find out his mistake. He also condemned them as the continuous Ministry, although he was himself the whip of that Ministry. He could only say he (Mr Pyke) sat ignominious, but contented, under the shadow of a grateful portfolio. He had asked where was the scandal. He would tell him the scandal would be in the hon. gentleman being found a member of the next Ministry provided the present Ministry were put out. [Cheers.] He contended that what they wanted was a strong Government. They had on one side a united party supporting the Government, and on the other side two parties. His party were the independent Liberal party. The ether side were Greyites, and those Liberals who were dependent Liberals. If the Government went out they would have a majority, and certainly a majority of the country. [Cries of “ Try it.”] They were not afraid to try. [Cheers from Government supporters,] The country would not care for such a course, seeing they had so recently been appealed to; but they did not feel afraid of the result if they had to try it, and the Opposition need not lay the flattering unction to their souls that they would not have a majority at’their backs if they did so, Eeferring to the measures before the House, he said they were moderate practical measures, for which the country had been sighing, according to those who professed liberal sympathies. They had been kept dangling before the House and country by the late Government, and he asked them not to lose any time now they had the opportunity to pass those liberal measures. Sir Qeohqe Grey said the hon. gentleman claimed that they had a cockatoo Government. Now, he had thought of the words those birds had frequently uttered, “poor cookey,” and found them applicable on this occasion. [Laughter.] They were told that in a few hours a strong Government could be constituted on a former occasion, but he argued against it, and he now saw his argument confirmed in the leadership of a gentleman of the Upper House. He maintained that the hon. gentleman for party purposes had no right a second time to come down to that House. That was what he contended and what ho repeated again ; that had not been answered. He referred to the land regulations quoted by the Hon. the Premier, and held he was a benefactor to New Zealand in introducing those laws. It was possible by pre-emptive rights to wrong the public more effectually than by increasing the price of land. The shutting up of land by gridironing and pre-emptive leases had done incalculable injury in Canterbury, and no answer had been returned to those accusations. They were told supply was absolutely necessary at the present moment, and he was of opinion this debate should be delayed until supply was provided, for the Governor had sent down a message stating that the exigencies of the public service should be provided for without delay, but this message had been intercepted, and they were told if the question of no confidence was delayed Ministers would bring forward supply. This was contrary to all constitutional usage. The only persons who really ought to be consulted were contractors and the poor and needy of the land. And yet they were told these people must want their money unless they would promise to leave the Government undisturbed and not interfere with them. He contended that supply had been stopped in an

unprecedented manner, and they had a right to say that until supplies were provided for no business should go on. They were themselves forbidden to ask for supply ; but hon. gentlemen would tell him if he did not right interpret their feeling when he said supply would at once be granted upon being asked for. [Cheers from the Opposition.] He contended that if ever there was a period when the Crown should bo recognised and have a majority in that House, such time had arrived. Ministers should come down at once and ask for supply, and at the same time ask that the vote should bo taken. He contended that Ministers were representatives of the landed aristocracy in this country. Whatever had been said to the contrary, there were representatives of enormous land claims in the House, and such claims were urged upon the Ministry out of the House. Some sat in the House, knowing they could bring that pressure to bear, and provision had to be made to meet it, or the country and the votes of such persons went against them. He hoped that provision would be made excluding, as well as contractors, those persons who sought to acquire large blocks of land, which only the stroke of a pen of Ministers could award them. There were such persons in the House at that time. It was the duty of those on his side of the House to say no business should go on un'il supply was granted. The Governor should know they were able to form a strong Government when Ministers gave way. Ministers should follow the example he had set them, and withdraw if they were any obstacle to the progress of the business of the country. The 5.30 adjournment interrupted the speaker. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. PRIVILEGE. Mr Hall said, before proceeding with the Orders of the Day, he wished to speak to a mattes of privilege. The hon. member for the Thames had stated ho had not advised his Excellency to accept his (Mr Hall’s) resignation as a member of the Upper House. He had communicated with his Excellency as to what transpired on that occasion. The substance had been given to him in a document, which he wished to lay before the House ; but, as it was a private communication to himself, he could only do so with the sanction of hon. members. He had therefore to ask permission to make known the substance of the communication. The House having given consent, the document was read as follows : Memorandum for the Hon. John Hall. (1). Bir George Grey is reported to have said, when speaking of Mr Hall’s (resignation of his seat in the Upper House for the purpose of taking a seat in the House of Eepresontatives .- —“ 1 say that he ought not to have been alio wed to resign bis position in the Upper House without the Governor’s having been advised to receive his resignation. A resignation is not complete until the Governor ap. proves of it, and I say the Governor, in having accepted his resignation without advice, meant that the putting him back into this House for the purpose of leading a party was a personal act, &c. If I had advised it I should not have disclosed that advice. I did not advise it. I say, therefore, that ho sits here as the personal representative of the Governor in this Honae. Sir, that is the case. Without that had been done, he could not have been here.”

(2.) Anyone reading this report would infer that the Governor had accepted Mr HalFs resignation without the concurrence of his Ministers, and that the act was the personal act of the Governor, for which Ministers were not in any way responsible. But that is not the case. The facts are these: —

(3.) Upon the 18th August the Governor received a letter from Mr Hall tendering the resignation of his seat in the Legislative Council, and the same day sent in one to the Premier with the following endorsement :—“ For usual course. Has it been customary here for the Governor to accept such resignations by letter, or is the acceptance notified in the * Government Gazette’ ? (Signed.) H.E. 18-8—79.” (1) Upon the following day, the 19th August, the Premier called upon the Governor, his business being, as he stated, to speak about Mr Hall’s resignation of his seat in the Council. The Premier said he considered such resignation a most improper proceeding, and opposed to the spirit and intention of the Constitution Act, as the appointment being binding on the Crown for life the obligation implied mutuality. He said Mr Hall had twice before left the Council to stand for the House of Eepresentatives, and that it was within his knowledge that that was the object of the present resignation. He said he had always deprecated such a proceeding, and as he considered the necessity for the Governor’s acceptance of the resignation gave the Governor a discretion in the matter, and enabled the Governor to judge of the propriety of the resignation, ho could not advise, in a case like Mr Hall’s, that the resignation should be accepted. The Governor replied that the Constitution Act specified that it shall be lawful for any member of the Legislative Council to resign his seat, and that the Electoral Acts imposed no disqualification upon a person standing for the House of Eepresentatives on the ground of being an ex-member of the Legislative Council. He should, therefore, decline to lend himself to any device for placing one of the Premier’s political opponents under a disability not imposed by law. _ If the proceeding were held to be improper, such a disqualification as having been a member of the Upper House should be specified by Act, and pending legislation the Governor would certainly refuse to be a party to such an unprecedented and strained exercise of a mere formal act of the prerogative for party purposes. The Governor mentioned instances in New South Wales in which men had gone from the Lower House. The Premier admitted that there had been repeated instances in New Zealand of members of the Upper House resigning their seats and being subsequently elected members of the House of Eepresentatives, and said that one of his then colleagues, Mr Gisborne, had done so, but ho (the Premier) disapproved so strongly of the proceeding and had spoken against it so often in public, that for the sake of his own consistency he should feel obliged to record formally upon the papers his proposal and his advice that Mr Hall’s resignation bo not accepted. He added that, although the Constitution Act left the acceptance to the Governor, every act of the Governor must be done under advice and Ministerial responsibility. The Governor replied that this view was undoubtedly sound, but that the Governor conld always reject Ministerial advice if he were prepared to face the Constitutional consequences, and that in this case, if snch advice were tendered, he should unquestionably refuse it, which would leave the Premier with the constitutional alternative of resignation or acquiescence in the refusal. The Governor added that unless the Premier were prepared toreaignlio did not see how the tendering of formal advice would vindicate his character for political consistency. The Premier left, saying he would consult with snch of bis colleagues as were in Wellington and let the Governor hear further on the subject. Upon the afternoon of the same day the papers covering Mr Hall’s resignation were returned to the Governor from the Premier’s office without any adverse advice whatever thereon and with the following endorsement :—“ For his Excellency.—lt has been customary here for the Colonial Secretary to notify the acceptance of his resignation to the resigning member. Eesignations have been usually, though it appears not _ invariably, notified in the ‘ Gazette.’ —(Signed) W. Gisborne, 19th August, 1879 (in the absence of the Colonial Secretary).” (6.) Upon this the Governor made the following endorsement: —“The Colonial Secretary is requested to inform Mr Hall of my acceptance of his resignation, and to cause the nsnal notification to be inserted in the ‘ Government Gazette.’ (Signed.) H.B. 19—8—79.” (7.) This was minuted by the Minister as follows:—“To be acted on.” (Signed.) W. Gisborne, 20th Angt., 1879, and the same day a letter was addressed to Mr Hall from the the Colonial Secretary’s office, signed W. Gisborne, in absence of the Colonial Secretary, informing Mr Hall of the Governor’s acceptance of his tendered resignation. (8.) These facts show that Sir Geo. Grey’s statement, “I did not advise it,” was only half the truth. It is true he was adverse to the step taken by Mr Hall, and did not endorse on the papers words—“ I advise that the resignation be accepted,” but he caused the Governor’s memorandum, addressed to himself, to be returned by one of his colleagues without any advice, which was tantamount to the Premier’s formal acquiescence in the acceptance of Mr Hall’s resignation, and such acceptance having been officially communicated to Mr Hall by a Minister of the Crown, the Premier and not the Governo- became, under the constitution, solely responsible for the action. The Governor feels, however, in some donbt now as to the course that should be adopted in this matter. It is a constitutional maxim that the Crown ought not to notice a debate in the Parliament, but on the other hand it is equally unconstitutional for the Governor’s name to be brought into the debate as it has been. No Minister or ex-Minister has a right to reveal in Parliament what has passed between the Crown and himself without the express leave of the Crown, and when Sir G. Grey referred to things that had taken place between himself and the Governor he ought to have been stopped at once by the inquiry whether he had the*Governor’s permission to speak of them at all. As it is, a matter which is known fully only to the Governor and,his late Premier, has been alluded to by the latter in Parliament without permission, and placed by him in a light which la not in accordance with the whole truth, whilst the Governor may possibly be held to bo

technically precluded by the rules of Parliamentary privilege from refuting a charge which has in such an unconstitutional manner been brought against him by his late Minister. In those circumstances the Governor desires to place on record in this memorandum a statement of all the facts connected with the acceptance of Mr Hall’s resignation of his seat in the Legislative Council, and to leave the present Premier free to make such use of them as he may think proper. Hercules Robinson. Wellington, October 21st, 1879. Sir Gbobqb Gbby said he thought the statement fair, but some things were omitted which were important to the matter. He would not state what took place, but thought sufficient was said to show that he took the proper course under the circumstances. He was averse to advise the non-acceptance of Mr Hall’s resignation, but was left with the alternative of not opposing the acceptance or resigning his position, and as the Ministry were then appealing to the country, he merely declined to interfere. He thought he was quite justified in telling the House that the resignation was accepted by the Governor contrary to his advice. He moved that the paper be laid on the table and printed. On the question that the paper lie on the table,

Mr Dk Lautoue said he had a motion to propose. It was —“ That the hon. Premier in communicating the opinion [of his Excellency, referring to the speech of a member of the House, had been guilty of a gross breach of privilege of the House.”

The Pebmibe said such a resolution amounted to this, that in doing what the House ordered him to do he had been guilty of a breach of privilege. Mr Montgomery regretted that what constituted a breach of privilege, viz., a reflection on a member of the House had been brought before them, but the House having given consent, he thought the hon member for Mount Ida should withdraw the amendment, and so enable them ito get out of the unpleasant ma'ter. Mr Stewart said the Premier had led them into a difficulty, and thought it better to accept the advice of the last speaker. Mr Rolleston said Ministers had a right to defend the acts of the Crown, and he was sure they would do so while on those benches. It must not be stated that there was any act of the Crown for which Ministers were not responsible. Resignation was the clear course for any Ministry to pursue which did not concur in the action of his Excellency, Mr Gisborne said messages had no right to be sent down whilst the House was sitting founded on an anonymous report of business before the House. It was a dangerous precedent, and should not be allowed to pass. Mr Hislop hoped the matter would drop. The Opposition were not sufficiently on their guard in allowing the document to be read. Mr Wakefibld hoped both motions would be withdrawn. The whole matter arose from the habit of the member for the Thames of abusing his Excellency in the House.

Sir Geobgb Q-eet believed the memo, was aimed at him personally. It would show he had not sanctioned the resignation of thehon. gentleman, and thus corroborated what he said. He deprecated the conduct of the hon. gentleman in bringing forward the document without making him acquainted with its contents, thus endeavoring to spring a mine under his feet.

Major Atkinson quoted the speech of the member for the Thames to show that he had said the resignation of his seat in the Upper House by Mr Hall was accepted without his (Sir G. Grey’s) advice. He trusted that in future his Excellency’s name would not be allowed to be brought into the House. Mr Macandeew hoped Ministers would allow the document to be published. The amendment was withdrawn on that understanding. TEIENNIAIi PABLIAMENTS._ The second reading of the Triennial Parliaments Sill was called on. Mr Macandeew moved the previous question as an amendment. Mr Hale and Major Atkinson remonstrated. The latter said if the present course were persisted in another appeal to the country would be necessary. Although much boasting had taken place on these measures, if the previous question were carried the Bills would be in such a position as to endanger their passing. Mr Shbehan said the hon. gentleman told them they would not leave the Ministerial benches because they would not do justice to themselves, their party, or the country until the measures had passed the House. He called the attention of hon. members to this statement. No. 1 was themselves; No. 2 their party, as close as possible to themselves ; No. 3 the country a long way in the distance. No truer statement of their selfishness could be laid before the House. The liberal Bills would soon ,bo passed if the Ministry gave way. If they wanted the liberal measures passed they should pass themselves. No Ministry should remain in office not possessed of the confidence of the House. Ministers had been in office longer than they ought to have been, but the cry for a dissolution was a bogus one. He knew no single instance of a Ministry not possessing the confidence of the House remaining in their seats as as the present Ministers, but he knew his party well. Not a single man would swerve from their purpose. If Ministers would bring forward his friend’s motion of no-confidence and allow it to go to the vote at once, they would not oppose the measures, although they had been stolen from his party. If such had been done outside the House, Ministers would bo liable to be brought up for obtaining them under false pretences. Mr McLean contended that the present Ministry were honest. Tomoana rose to say that the Native Minister’s speech had disappointed him. He asked Ministers to seek some other Native to sit in his place because, though for many years his people had suffered, nothing was done. Ho said he would vote and deal honestly with Mr Hall. He wished to go honorably from his seat. He did not object to anything which had been said, but saw no good would come from it to his people. [The hon. member then walked from the Government benches and sat down alongside of the other Natives on the Opposition benches.] Mr Andeews supported the Triennial Parliaments Bill as an independent member. He had given his vote according to promise for Sir G. Grey as Minister, and was at liberty to vote as he thought proper on any measure. He deprecated the conduct of Ministers in retaining their seats against the wish of a majority, and was in favor of asking his Excellency to dissolve the House if Ministers persisted in the course they had adopted. Colonel Teimble spoke at some length in reply to the previous speakers. He said if members would allow the Bills to go to a division there were no objections on his side of the House to a full and fair discussion of the merits of Ministers.

Messrs Hutchison, Turnbull, Rolloaton, McLean, Hall, and Murray having spoken, a division was taken on the question of the adjournment of the debate, moved by Mr Oliver, with the following result—Ayes, 31; Noes, 37. Ayes—3l. Messrs Adams Messrs Moorhouse Atkinson Murray Bain Oliver Bowen Ormond Brandon Pitt Bryce ' Rolleston Driver Bussell (teller) Gibbs Saunders Hall Seymour Hirst Stevens Hursthonso Sutton Johnston Trimble Kelly Wakefield Levin _ (teller) Masters Willis McLean Wright Noes— 37. Messrs Allwright Messrs Moss (teller) Andrews McCaughan Ballance Montgomery Barron Pyke Bunny Beeves Colbeck Seddon DeLautour Shanks Finn Sheehan J. B. Fisher Speight (teller) J. T. Fisher Stewart George Swanson Gisborne Tainui Hamlin Tawhai Harris Te Wheoro Hurst Thomson Hutchison Tole Ireland Tomoana Lnndon Wood Maoandrew Pairs. For— Against— Messrs Studholme Sir G. Grey Whitaker Messrs E-eid Mason Wallis Kenny Shephard Richmond Turnbull Beetham Brown Fulton Hislop Dick Shrimski White Macdonald The House adjourned at 1.30 a.m.