THE RAILWAY MAP INQUIRY.

Globe, Volume XXI, Issue 1709, 12 August 1879, Page 3

THE RAILWAY MAP INQUIRY.

The following abstract of the more important part of the evidence taken before the Bail way Map Inquiry Committee, is published in tho " New Zealand Times" :

Mr G. Didsbury, Government printer, sworn and examined —What information did he (Mr Koch) give you on the question ? When Major Campbell asked me first if I could gather information as to whether any alteration had been made in the map after it was placed in my hands for lithographing, I went up to the lithographic office, questioned the foreman there, and got what particulars I could as to when it was printed, and by whom the draughtsman's work was done. Mr Koch happened to be in the lithographic department at the time, working at one of the stones there, and he told me that he had plotted the railway lines in. I asked if he could tell me whether any alteration was made from the original map after it was placed in his hands. He told me no alteration was made after it was placed in his hands, but he knew it was not in the same condition now as when it was presented to the House. Mr A. Koch, draughtsman in Public Worts Department, sworn and examined—Are you quite clear that when the map was handed to you by Mr Didsbury, this red line, showing the railway from To Aroha to Grahamstown, was on the map ? Yes ; this red line was not originally on the map. Thero is a piece added on to it. It is a different color altogether. I saw it when I held it up to the light. This piece from Te Aroha to Grahamstown is an additional piece put on. I told Mr Wrigg I thought so, and he said, " Yes, I put it on myself sometime ago." My reason why I observed it was it being just the time the sod was turned at the Thames. I said to Mr Wrigg, " The sod is turned upon the red line, because the line shows red through to Grahamstown." Mr Wrigg said he had put it on afterwards.

When did this conversation take place between you and Mr Wrigg; was it after the session had closed ?It was about the 20th February. This map has been out of the House, and in the hands of the Clerk of the House, and afterwards in Mr Didsbury's hands, between September aud February, and I only put this on the stone in February last, about four or five months ago. . . . Mr Wrigg brought the map from Mr Didsbury and told me to put it on the stone. I asked him what lines I should show in the lithography, and he said, " Show big, strong lines, nearly a quarter of an inch thick." I looked down upon the map, and pointing out a piece, said, " That piece is added." He said, " Yes, I added it since."

Mr Rolleston—Since when ?—Since tho map was on the table of the House.

The Chairman —Did you ever see this map with the red line terminating at Te Aroha ? I saw it before, but I certainly could not take an oath that it was not done then. My reason for saying it was done since was the different color, knowing at the time the alteration had been started from there.

Mr H. C. W. Wrigg, chief draughtsman, Public Works Department, sworn and examined.

Did you put on the extension from Te Aroha ;o the Thames ?—Yes, I did.

Can you give us any idea when you put on the extension from Te Aroha to Grahamstown ? —I can positively state it was done before the 23rd September. This document was laid on the table on the 10th September. I think I understood you to say it was on the same day, but you think it was on the 23rd? —I think so, because we had a copy filed on the 23rd September, on which the alterations appear. It has never been out to my knowledge since. Then you are quite sure on the 23rd September this extension is shown on it ? It is only put on in red pencil on the record plan, but that plan has not been out since. Who put on that red pencilling ?—I believe I put that on. And you made the pencil-mark ?—To the best of my belief I did. I did all the copies also.

Are such records as letters ?i your keeping ?—Whenever there has been attached a record plan on the face of the document. If there was written instruction for this extension from Te Aroha to Grahamstov»n, in whose hands would that record be ?—I fancy in the hands of the chief clerk. Who is the chief clerk P—At that time Mr Benzoni, Is he still in the office ?—Yes.

Would you inform the committee who put on this red line showing the proposed railway from Hamilton to Te Aroha ?—I could not tell the draughtsman's name, but it was done under my directions, from instructions received from the office. I do not know who gave the instructions, but it went through just as it appears in this plan, without the addition.

Mr McLean—Do you state positively that this red line from Hamilton to Te Aroha, and this line from Te Aroha to the Thames, were put on this map within a day or two of each other? —I cannot swea- that, but I think so. Certainly it was before the 23rd. I believe it was the same day. You will not swear it was before the 11th September ?—No; because the maps only left me about the 10th September. You remember Mr Koch pointing out to you that that additional line between Te Aroha and Grahamstown had been put on subsequently to the other ?—He drew attention to the difference in the colors, which is quite perceptible. Would you answer the question I have put to you ? Do you remember his calling attention to the fact that it was put on subsequently to the other ?—Yes. Do you remember what your reply was ? At the timo I did not think much of it at all. He said it was a swindle. I said, " I believe it was put on the very day the map left my hands."

Hon. Mr Richardson—Do you remember the conversation that took place at the time, because it has been stated here in evidence that Mr Koch called your attention to the fact that that line—the extension from Te Aroha to Grahamstown —had been put on the map subsequently to the portion between Hamilton and Te Aroha ?—Yes, I remember that.

Do you remember what conversation took place on his calling attention to that fact ? Well, he drew my attention to the fact by saying that it was a swindle. What further took place ?—I said, "So far as that goes, to the best of my belief, it was done on the Bame day that the map went on the table."

Did you ever see that map again from the time you put that line on yourself till it was brought to you ? —Never. Would there have been any record of it if it had been in the hands of any officer of jour department ?—lf that map had come up for alterations or additions I shouldjhave entered it in the book, but not if the alterations were small. I asked you the question before, but I should like to ask you again, oan you state positively that the the map was in the Public Works Office after the 10th September till February ? —Not in my charge. I cannot state positively whether it was put on the table on the 10th.

You stated in the reply you made just now that Mr Koch, in pointing it out to you, said it was a swindle. What do you consider he meant at the time ? Did you pay any particular attention to that P—l am not a politician but I f anoy he meant to say that it was something political. I inferred it was some little move that was on, and took it for granted that it was such.

Did you put the line from Te Aroha to the Thames on this map that was laid on the table of the House before it was put on the record map—Yes. Oan you recollect how long before you put it on the record map ?—No j but it was before the 23rd. Was it before the 10th ?—I will not swear that. I have no record when the map passed my hands after then; it was supposed to be out of my hands on the 10th. I believe it went out of my hands on that day. Mr Blackett, Engineer in Charge, North Island, sworn and examined—When did you, as Engineer in charge of these railways, show the contemplated extension from To Aroha to Q-rahamstown? —It was not in the way of contemplation, but the result of an order to prepare contracts beginning at Q-rahamstown. I mean with regard to putting it on the map?—l have explained as nearly as possible what took place. The order was given in the Minister's own office to produce

the red line that stopped at Te Aioha Grahamstown. Do you know whether that was before the Minister made his Publio Works Statement or afterwards ?—I think the map was prepared at tbe instance of a member who asked for it, to be shown in the House. Would you look at the map prepared for the Public Works Statement, and say whether that line indicated the extension from Grahamstown to Te Aroha ?No ; that shows it to Te Aroha, and Btops there ; and that is the line described in my annual raport in detail as from Hamilton to Te Aroha.

Was there any estimate of the cost of that line from Hamilton to Te Aroha?— Yes ; it is contained in the Minister's Statement.

What was the probable cost ?—I think it is £168,000. Was there a preliminary survey of the line from Hamilton to Te Aroha ? —Yes ; there was a preliminary survey, and an estimate formed.

Was there any estimate of the cost from Hamilton to Q-rahamstown ? —Not before the order was given to make contracts at Grahams - town.

Had your department made any estimate of the cost from Q-rahamstown to Te Aroha before the Assembly rose last year ? —No. Hon. Mr Richardson—Has that line between Te Aroha and Graharnstown been surveyed up to the present time ? —No ; it has only been surveyed about nine miles up the Thames from Grahamstown.

Where did that survey commence ? —At Grahamstown, working up the valley. Why has not that survey been completed ? —I think, when the surveyors got to the place where they stopped, the Natives stepped in and preventod them going any further. Are you aware of the 3rd clause of the Railways Construction Act of last session, which states that you, as an engineer in charge of the North Island, have to certify that the best route for the railway has been taken before it can be commenced ?—Yes.

Did you make any such report upon that ? —Yes ; bo far as the contracts were let.

How far were the contracts let ?—They did not proceed beyond Eauaerauga—merely the foreshore of the Thames.

Mr Rolleston—What was the length ?—I think about a mile and thirteen chains. They were just the reclamation contracts.

Hon. Mr Richardson—What is the amount of tho contracts ?—Grahanistown contract, twenty chains, £7538 13s 5 Shortland contract, seventy-three chains, £8393 Is 43. Mr Bolleaton—There is only that mile and thirteen chains upon which your report goes ? —I have only certified that it is the best available route as far as the work is let. Hon. Mr Richardson—l moved in the House on the 3rd September last year, a few days after the Public Works Statement was made, for a copy of a plan to show " the railways now proposed." Was there any plan in existence at that time showing that railway between Te Aroha and Grahamstown as a line propoEed to be constructed—that is, was there anything in the office to show that the railway was then proposed to be constructed by the Government ?—No 5 I had prepared no plans of it whatever. There is no public record that shows it, so far as you are aware P—Not that I am aware of.

If there had been any plan you would have been aware of it ?—Yes.

Then I understand that a proposal to extend the line from Te Aroha to Grahamstown came before the department after the 3rd of September of last year ?—That being the date on which you asked for it ?

Yes ?—Oh, decidedly yes. Were you called upon during the last session of Parliament, or before the last session, to make any estimate of the cost of that line between Te Aroha and Grahamstown ?—No.

Have you ever made such an estimate ? No.

Not up to the present time ? No ; merely verbal.

You have made no official estimate ?—No.

The Chairman—When a railway is to be constructed in the North, whoso duty is it to prepare an estimate?—The engineer of the district generally goes over the line, makes a survey, and compiles an estimate, which is submitted for approval at head-quarters. Hon. J. Macandrew, Minister for Public Works, sworn and examined—Have you any recollection of Mr Blackett sending this plan or bringing it to your room in accordance with the order of the House ? —I have no recolleotion of any order of the House. Have you any recollection then of your specially ordering Mr Blackett to have this line put upon the map from Te Aroha to Grahamstown ?—I have no recollection of ordering Mr Blackett to do anything of the sort, but if he says so I have no daubt I did. Look at the difference in these two ? —I see it.

You see there is a difference in the tint of that line to Te Aroha, and the space where you ordered it to be put on down to the Thames j it is just double the distance ? —I do not know that it is. Ido not see much difference in the tint.

If the draughtsman says he did put it on afterwards, and the Chief Engineer says it was put on by your order, will you contradict them ?-—My own opinion was that the railway was to go to Grahamstown, and I believe that was the intention of the previous Government for some years before. I want to get out how this piece was put on the plan. You are aware that thirty-two miles were put on from this Public Works Statement ?—I do not know the length.

You can see that from Hamilton to Te Aroha and from Te Aroha to the Thames is just about the same distance ?—I suppose it is.

Would it not strike you as rather strange that you should put on double the distance ? I do not know how how far I am required to answer these questions, Mr Chairman. Question repeated—lf the committee is to go into the political position of the matter, and the policy of the Government, then I submit that is not the Order of Reference, and I ought to have been made a member of the committee. I believe that when Mr Richardson put the question the map either had been or was being prepared upon a larger scale than the one attached to the Public Works Statement.

The Chairman —Did you feel that in laying this map on the table you were showing a different length of railway from that shown in your Public Works map?—No doubt to show a line to Grahamstown, when it was not show in the previous one, implied that the railway was longer —that is to say, if it were taken to Hamilton. I do not think that it implies that the railway should be more than a given distance. It all depends upon the House. The whole thing was a proposal, and the map was intended to show what was proposed to be made. Of course it was all subject to the vote of the House ?—Yes.

Did any question arise last session as to whether the railway should terminate at Te Aroha or Grahamstown ?—Not that I am aware of.

Mr McLean—When a promise is mode to the House that an exact copy of a map shall be placed on the table in some distinctive colors, in order that members may see at a glance where railways are going, do you think it is a proper thing to put a map on the table with different railways on it to those exhibited on the map of which a copy is asked for ?—I should think it would depend on the circumstances. I think the order has been literally complied with. [Mr Richardson's question (No. 4, 3rd September, 1878) read.] That is literally complied with. Mr Rolleston —This was not proposed in the Public Works Statement ?—Yes, it was. [Quotation from Public Works Statement read by Mr Richardson.] No doubt that is a special survey, but it does not follow that more than thirty miles of railway need be made now. It is for the House to say whether the thirty miles shall be exceeded or not. [Report of engineer of North Island produced.] That is cerrect. There appears to be only one survey to that extent. Mr McLean—Suppose, now, I, as a member, stuck to your Public Works Statement, and suppose you were in my place, would you, as a member of the House, be content to look at your Public Works Statement map, and be satisfied with that, without going to any other map that wa3 ordered as a copy of it to be put on the table of the House in distinctive lines, to see whether it would bo altored? — It would be very difficult to say what I might think if I were in your place. Suppose you were a member of the House and not in the Government, and you Baw a piece added to another map which was supposed to be a copy of the map attached to the Public Works Statement ?—I am on my oath to give statements of fact, not suppositions. Then, if Mr Blackett swears that he brought this map to you in accordanoe with this question of the House, and you ordered him to add this thirty miles to Qrahamatown ?

If ho swears it, I will believe it, but I have no recollection of it.

I Mr J. Knowles, tinder Secretary for Publio Works, sworn and examined.—Then, when the Public Works map was prepared and appended to the statement, why did it not show the extension to Grahamstown instead of terminating at Te Aroha F Because there was then no record to show that it was intended to go beyond Te Aroha, but between the date of the statement and the laying on the table of this map the records show that it was decided to carry the railway on to Grahamstown. I will read the telegrams on the subject:— " Grahamstown, 27th August, 1878. " Hon. James Macandrew, Wellington.— You are not clearly reported last night. Do you mean railway from Grahamstown to Waikato ? Publio anxious to know, therefore excuse troubling you. "L. Ehbbnpbied. Acting Mayor." " Wellington, 28th August, 1878. " I/. Bhrenfried, Acting Mayor, Grahamstown.—lntended railway is Waikato to Gra- j hamstown. "J. Macandekw." " Grahamstown, 29th August, 1878. " Hon. the Premier, Wellington.—l am instructed to forward to you resolutions passed unanimously at a large public meeting tonight : " Ist Resolution. ' That this meeting tenders its best thanks to Sir George Grey and his Government for having placed upon the Public Works Statement tho line of railway from Grahamstown to Hamilton.* " 2nd Resolution.—' That in the presence of the depression now existing in many upon this field, and the great want of employment amongst the wages-earning population, and the distress consequent thereupon, the Government be most earnestly prayed to at once commence the railway works from Grahamstown to Waikato.' " L. Ehbbitpeibii, Deputy Mayor."

" Wellington, 6th September, 1878. "L. Ehrenfried, Esq., Grahamstown.—No authority for making the railroad has yet been received from Parliament. When it has been received, arrangemente of various kinds will necessarily have to be made before the works can be commenced. " G. Gbby." The OHairman—From these telegrams you have read to us, are you satisfied that this map, when laid on the table, would show the extension from Te Aroha to Grahamstown ? I am satisfied of that in my own mind, and I will give you the reason why. Ido not know it from my own knowledge, but I believe Mr Black ett took this map in to the Minister on the morning of the 10th, in order to see whether it was correct. It was then only as far as Te Aroha, but the Minister told Mr Blackett to carry the line Te Aroha to Grahamstown. That was in the morning, and this map was laid on the table in the afternoon. This is the reason why lam satisfied that it would show that extension.

But was the obvious explanation not that Mr Richardson had every reason, when he saw the map he had asked for was not there, to ask how the addition was made ? You made no allusion in your memorandum to the addition ?—The additior was not put on after the map was placed on the table, so far as I know. I do not say the map laid on the table last year was what Mr Richardson asked for; that was not what my memorandum went to show. I had nothing to do with whether this map was or was not what Mr Richardson asked for. I had only to explain that this is the map that was then laid onjthe table. But did not your memorandum contain a phrase liko this—" Mr Richardson appears to be under a misapprehension with regard to the two maps ?" Would not the proper explanation have been—"Mr Richardson appears to have been led into a mistake because of the addition that was made in excess of what he asked for?"—You seel had nothing to do with the question of what map Mr Richardson last year had asked for. All I had to do was to explain to the Minister how it was that Mr Richardson had conceived there was any discrepancy in these maps. Hon. Mr Richardson—Look at the map ; does it not appear that the line has been laid on at different times ?—lt has buen laid on at different times.

Mr M'Lean—Would you, without any interference from a Minister, have placed that map upon the table as a copy of the Publio Works Statement map ?—No, certainly not; because it was not the Publio Works Statement map. You said, the last time you answered tho question, that Mr Blackett pointed out to Mr Macandrew that it went only as far as Te Aroha ?—Yes. While in the evidence of Mr Blackett he says that the map was prepared in accordance with the question of the House, and that when it went to Mr Macandrew for approval, ha sent for Mr Blackett and ordered thirty miles to be put on ?—My reply to that is that what I state on that point is only hearsay. Mr Blackett is more likely to be correct. Mr Pyke—When this map was prepared in accordance with the question of Mr Richardson, was it presented to the Minister showing the line only as far as Te Aroha?—Yes. And, subsequently, it was ordered that the extension should be shown to Grahamstown? —Yes.

And the alteration was made distinctly by the Minister's order ?—Yes.

Then the map, as first prepared, was in accordance with the question ?—Yes. Hon. Mr Richardson—Would Mr Knowles state what contracts there are on that line ? There are two contracts for sleepers—one for 5000 sleepers, £947; another for 10,000 sleepers, £12,083. There are two works contracts—one called the ShortlaHd contract, £8393; and the Grahamstown contract, £7538 ; total, £28,961. There is also an order for rolling-stock, which has g»ne Home; and we shall have to charge it to some vote. The amount is £27,000. Then there is £28,961 incurred already, and £27,000 for rolling stock, while there is a vote of £30,000 only ?—Yes. What is the amount provided for this railway ?—£30,000. That was the vote for the year ending 30th June last. Mr McLean—Do you understand, Mr Knowles, that the £30,000 was voted for this line, or only for the line in accordance with the Public Works Statement— namely, from Hamilton to Te Aroha ?—The vot« is Waikato to Thames. Did you consider that vote was for the line already surveyed ?—The vote was for Waikato to the Thames. I have nothing to do with what the interpretation of "Thames" may be. Was not the line mentioned in the Public Works Statement as " Waikato to Thames " the line described in the appendix to the survey as " Hamilton to Te Aroha ?"—So far as my record shows, it was. Ido not know what was the Minister's mind. Hon. E. Richardson, M.H.R., Bworn and examined — Mr McLean When you asked that question of the Minister for Public Works the map that you wanted made was an exact copy of the Public Works Statement, but in distinctive colors ? —Exactly so ; aad the question was clearly worded in order that there should bo no possible mistake, and to pin the Government to what they intended to do.