GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XX, Issue 1410, 22 August 1878, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[PBB PEE 33 AGENCY.] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday, August 21. bills advanced. In the Council this afternoon the Trades Unions Bill was read a third time and passed. The Interpretation Bill was referred to a Select Committee. The Land Claims Final Settlement Bill was read a second time, and referred to the Waste Lands Committee. The Waitaki High School Bill was referred to the Local Bills Committee, and the Executive Councillors Bill passed through committee with an amendment moved by Mr Waterhouse. Mr Miller moved the second reading ot the Oamaru Waterworks Bill j but the debate was interrupted by the adjournment. HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, August 20. the electoral bill. The debate on the Electoral Bill was continued after ten last night. Mr Fox could not support the portion of the Bill which had reference to the native franchise. No one wished to deprive the natives of the franchise. He regarded tl o endowment of the franchise on Maoris as a statesmanlike act which had been the salvation of the country. He objected to double representation, and the flooding of European constituencies by native votes. That was really the outcome of the present system. For instance, in Manawatu 200 names had been placed on the roll, and these 200 votes could be manipulated by one man. The Maoris did not ask for it—indeed, some natives north of Auckland petitioned against the system. He objected to double votes of European--. If there was to be manhood suffrage, it should be fixed upon some intedigible principle. There should not be a dual vote, giving property holders an undue advantage, more particularly in the South Island, where there were greater facilities for transporting voters from place to place. As to manhood suffrage, ha had studied it in America, Switzerland, and other countries, and admitted the suffrage must come to that. His only desire was to see it surrounded with sufficient safeguards. He knew the American constitution and representative system, and regretted the social and political immorality in that great free country. But ho did not attribute those evils altogether to manhood suffrage. They were in a large measure the reßult of the great socialistic wave which was sweeping over all the oldest countries in the world, as well as the newest, whether democratic or monarchial. In America it was very powerful. Thousands of loafers were preaching and producing socialism, all of whom had the franchise. It was a terrible power. The outlook was not cheerful, but he had great confidence as to the future, and believed manhood suffrage would be a safety valve which would enable America to stepr through her trouble. It could not bo said that he was opposed to manhood suffrage, but he was dc eirous of seeing it surrounded by safeguards. Addressing himself to the question of women's suffrage, he contended that if taxationJVas the basis of representation, representation could not be denied &o women who

paid taxes, more especially as the principle was admitted in municipal affairs. The Bill did not go so far us that, but still he should supporU'ae Bill »s far as it went. Generally he should support the Bill, but objected to some details. He also favored the Bill of the hon. member for Waikato with some exceptions. He had great doubts as to Hare's system, not so much on the abstract question, bull with respect to details. Mr Mandees supported the Bill, though objecting to s ime details. Mr Feldwick pointed out several defects in the machinery which would require alteration. Mr BABTING3 strongly supported manhood suffrage, and to that extent did rot entirely ugree with the Bill. Woman should have a property vote, but nothing further. Mr Babff regarded the Bill as very imperfect, but would vote for its second reading. Major Atkinson congratulated the Government on the unanimity of its followers in respect to the first great measure brought forward for the purpose of freeing the serfs of New Zealand. Nearly every one had taken objection to its principle and details, and had given fatherly advice as to what ought to be done. The Premier and the Government promised manhood suffrage pure and simple, and it was with surprise he had seen the Attorney-General rise to introduce the Bill, because it was the peculiar province of the Premier to have introduced it. It was not the Bill which the Premier promised, much to the relief of both sides of the Houbo. It was a relief to the supporters of the Government that they would not have to vote for a policy of "Bunkum" —to use the expression of the hon. member for Iloslyn—and a relief to the Opposition, who were afraid of what the Government were going to propose. It was not, the Bill promised in the recess and afforded another proof of the correctness of the statement of Mr Reader Wood in the Auckland Provincial Council, that "no one and nothing could bind the Premier." There was no liberalism in the Bill. The property holder was given three advantages ; one in respect of freeholds; next in respect of leaseholds, and next the clerks of Road Boards were to take care that property holdeis were on the rolls, while the 70,000, the pith and marrow of the country, were left to take care of themselves. The class least used to writing and attending to these matters was left entirely out in the cold. How did this peculiar cise of property favoritism (?) tally with the Premier's speeches ? It was another evidence of the talk of the Premier and his utter failure to act in accordance with his talk. There were many absurd provisions in the Bill, proving that Ministers who ran about the country during the whole of the recess could not present well digested proposals to the House. For instance, a man personated was to be disfranchised, though he had done no wrong. Then if a momoer was doubly returned, and did not elect his seat in twentyeight days according to the intention of the Bill, there was no penalty for his non-fulfil-ment of the condition. There was no provision for ascertaining who were residents. No provision for identifying names on the roll in respect of property; no means of keeping rolls pure. Mr Ballance thought it a pity the hon. member for Egmont had not dealt with principles instead of with details, and contended that the Bill was more liberal and simple than that of the hon. member for Waikato. No more complicated system than Hare's could be imagined, nor could any system be dovised which was better calculated to destroy the rights of tha people than Hare's system. If the 'hon. gentlemen on the opposite side were sincere about liberalism, let them drop Hare's system, and go in for the remainder of the Bill brought forward by the member for Waikato.

If the 'hon. gentlemen on the opposite side were sincere about liberalism, let them drop Hare's system, and go in for the remainder of , the Bill brought forward by the member for , Waikato. i Mr Whitakeb—l accept that at once. Mr Ballance —Would the hon. gentle* man's friends accept it ? No ! As to Victoria, the provision of the Government Bill was on all fours with the Victorian practice. He j was not going to contend that the extension of the suffrage would have such a great effect upoa the liberties of the people ; but it was necessary for the good of the country to dis- ; tribute political power over all the people, and to give manhood suffrage with reasonable , restrictions, The principle of the Government was, that, they extended political privi- | leges by the residential qualification, and no • more liberal franchise than that provided by Bill could be given. As to the Maori ques- • tion, -why the Government had not given the t Maoris any new power, but had restricted it in certain directions. The grievance was, that the Natives did not pay rates and assist in paying for making roads, and the principle of this Bill was to induce the Maoris to pay rates and obtain political privileges thereby. , That was a policy which the country at large would accept. As to the educational test, a high educational test was not justified by experience. For instance the University of Oxford at Home had opposed every liberal measure now on the statute book, and rejected Mr Gladstone for his liberal ideas. The principle of the representation of minorities was a fallacy. It was un-English; and further, every reform in England had been carried by a simple majority. The genius of the English constitution was the simple majority, but minority representation was not excluded thereby, for almost every shade of Opinion was appreciably represented in the House of Commons under the present system. The fact was that Hare's system was a machinery for making divergent minorities a majority and not for the fair representation of the opinion of the country. Dr. Wallis had charged certain members of the Government with ultra-conservaiimi, and hinted at divisions in the Cabinet. Why, naturally, there must be divers individual opinions, and every great measure could only be the outcome of the united mind of the Cabinet, and this measure really did represent the mind of the Premier in that it extended the suffrage greatly. No doubt there were minor defects, but wero there not such in every great proposal brought before that or any other House. Was the principle of the Bill acceptable ? He believed the answer of a large majority in the House would bo in the affirmative. On the motion of Mr Seaton the debate was adjourned. The House adjourned at 12.30. Wednesday, August 21. The House met at 2.30. AUCTIONEBBS' LICENSES. Mr Shbimski gave notice to ask Government whether they intend to introduce a Bill this evening to deal with auctioneers' licenses. TNSULAB SEPAEATION. Mr Babton asked, without notice, whether Government had any intentions of forming two provinces, with a Government at Auckland and another at Christchurch, in accordance with a statement made in a leading Wellington print. The Pbemieb said that the rumor was a mere political canard, without the slightest foundation. The Government had always taken the House into its confidence. o'connob's case. Mr Babton moved for all papers connected with O'Connor's case. Mr Shebhan said they would be laid on the table. dbainaoe bill. In reply to Dr Hodgkir.son, Mr Stout said the Government contemplated introducing a Drainage Bill this session, but the measure was so large, they feared they would not have time to deal with the matter this session. QUEENSTOWN-CEO.UWELL BAILWAY. Mr Macandbew, replying to Dr HodgkinBon, said there was no immediate likelihood of a survey being made for a line of railway between Queenstown and Cromwell. SPECIAL SETTLEMENT SCHEME. Mr SHEBHAN, in reply to Sir R. Douglas, said he would lay on the table any papers relating to a scheme settling Portuguese and natives of Madeira in portions of the northern districts of Auckland. JAPANESE COMMISBIONEE3. Mr Fox aaked if the Government had received the information desired respecting the Japanese commissioners. Mr Ballance said a telegram had been seut to Australia with that object, but no reply had been received. LICENSE FEE3i In reply to Mr Richmond, Mr Sheehan said provision would be intro-

duced into the Licensing Bill to equalise licensing fees throughout the colony.

BIPLE ASSOCIATION. Mr Hamlin asked—(l) If a rifle association were formed on the basis of the National Rifle Association of England, the Government would consider a proposal to hand over to such association the equipment hitherto used at, colonial meetings; (2) Whether they would pi ice a sum of money on the supplementary estimates in aid of the funds of :,ho association ; (3) whether they will be prepared to consider a proposal to aid such association by allowing them the use of a Government reserve in some central part of the colony for a few days each year. Mr Shekhan said the Government were prepared to favorably consider the first and third questions. When they saw that the association really meant business would be time enough to talk about subsidies. PIBST READINGS. Several Bills were read a first time. THE BAILWAY FESTIVAL. Mr Bastings moved—" That the House at its rising on Thursday, sth September, at 5.30, adjourn until Tuesday, tho 9th, at 7 30, to enable members to visit the opening of tho Dunedin-Christchurch railway. The motion was agreed to without discussion. COUNTY OF WALLACE. Mr HODGKINSON moved that the county of Wallace, being unable to fulfil the duties cast upon it by tho Abolition and Counties Acts, £3OOO be put on the supplementary estimates to enable the county to carry out certain necessary public works. It was a degrading position in which to be placed, and such a thing ought not to be allowed to continue. The hon. gentleman quoted from a Riverton paper to show that the county openly admitted its inability to carry out its proper functions. Mr Macandbew said there was no objection to opening up the whole question when the House went into committee on the 28th.

repealing counties act. Mr Saundebs withdrew his motion for repealing the Counties Act.

bbwi on MB POX. In reply to Mr Fox, Mr Sheehan laid upon the table a further communication from Rewi to himself regarding Mr Fox's remarks on Native matters, and in which Mr Fox was called an unbelieving man, and recommended to follow the example of Mr Sheehan and Sir G. Grey.

Mr Sutton said it was quite clear that Rewi was under the tutelage of some Government officer.

Sir G. Grey explained that the Maoris were entirely uninstructed with regard to proceedings in that House by tho Government. The fact was they took different newspapers, and had them translated by their own interpreters. the govebnoe's despatches.

Mr Fox moved—" That his Excellency be requested to lay before tho Houso all correspondence between himself and the Secretary of State for the colonies which had taken place since last session."'

Mr Stout said they had no objection to ask his Excellency to lay on the table all such correspondence and papers, as Ministers might advise his Excellency might be so laid on the table.

The Premier pointed out it was not always proper to ask for all theae despatches. Mr Fox differed from him as light differed from darkness. The House had a perfect right to be acquainted with the whole of it. This had been the practice for many years. The motion was agreed to. railway employes' holidays.

Mr Mandsbs moved -'' That it is expedient that railway employes should obtain a week or a fortnight's holiday during the year, the conditions to be arranged by the managers of the railway departments." Mr Stout hoped the House would negative the motion. It was absurd to expect the House to interfere in a matter of that kind. Mr Feldwick supported the motion, and instanced hardships of the kind occurring in Southland. Mr Macandbew denied that there was any foundation for the allegation of the cases of hardship referred to. The motion was negatived. consolidated bevenue and expknditube. It was agreed, on motion of Mr Green, that a return should be prepared showing the total amount of consolidated revenue received in each provincial district for 1877-78, also the expenditure within the same district for the same period. FEMALE TELEGBAPHIBTB. Mr Delatoub asked if the employment of women in the telegraph offices of the colony had proved satisfactory and if the Govarnment will place any statistics before the House on the question. Mr Fisheb said that as a whole the system had not been satisfactory. Women seldom reached to be efficient operators, though being very well adapted for certain kinds of clerical work. Statistics on the matter would be laid on the table. THE SUBVEY SYSTEM. Mr Beatham moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the mode of conducting the surveys of the colony. What he wanted was that prior to survey an engineer should lay off the roads. Mr Stout opposed the motion as one which no Government ought to submit to. It was almost equivalent to a motion of no confidence. Messrs Mubbay, McMinn, and Gibbs considered the question ought to be inquired into, being exceedingly important. The motion was negatived on the voices. MINES ACT. On the motion of Mr Mandbbs the Government agreed to instruct the Goldfields Committee to ascertain in so far as they see fit, whether it is not practicable to amend the appendices and regulations of the Mines Act, 1877. Messrs Babfe, Pykk, and Reeves strongly opposed the motion, and talked till 5.30. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. MINES BEGULATION BILL. Mr Wason moved the second reading of the Mines Regulation Bill, which he explained was introduced solely on account of the Bill introduced four years ago by Mr Kichardson, having remained a dead letter. The coal trade was assuming such magnitude that the Act should be brought into operation. Threefourths of the accidents occurring in mines in the colony were what might be called preventable accidents. So important had the question become at Home that the miners themselves were glad to take action in the matter. Too often the mining operations of the colony were carried on without proper precautions in timbering, and providing good air, and it was necessary that the Legislature should take action as would prevent the working miners of the country being placed at the mercy of any mine manager. The Bill was read a second time. NAPIEB SWAMP BILL. Mr Sutton moved the second reading of the Napier Swamp Nuisance Act Amendment Bill. The object of the Bill was to enable the corporation to carry out legally what the other Bill had failed to do. The Bill was read a second time. PABLIAMENTABY BEPBESBNTATION BILL. Mr Joyce commented in strong terms of disapproval of tho modification of Hare's system introduced into the Bill. It was a gift not worth having, any more than an estate that was swallowed up by mortgages. As a matter of fact, Hare's system was not required in the colony, where they already had too many minorities represented, instead of tho great body of the people, the artisan, and labourer. Were it not so, they would probably have seen some of the great landed estates of the colony figuring less conspicuously. He proposed that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr Thompson pointed out that our present electoral system was very imperfect. Under it a majority of the House might not represent a majority of the people of the colony. Though our system of election was the representation of majorities, it could not be held that the minorities should not bo represented. It was to remedy this unfortunate state of affairs that the member for Waikato'B Bill was introduced. He wanted not only majorities, but the whole people of the colony represented. Sr.ill it was only an experiment, and not sufficiently understood by the peopla to go on with it now, though tho member for

Waikato deserved thanks for facing a question which would soon have to be dealt with.

Mr Oliveb thought the people of the colony only wanted a measure which while extending democratic privileges to the bulk, would prevent any single claBS obtaining undue representation. When the Premier propounded his system of manhood suffrage, he (Mr Oliver) could not sympathise with him. He believed a majority of the people were averse to it, and it was with a sense of relief that the colony heard the Treasurer's views on the subject. The Government Bill he considered generally acceptable inasmuch as it was progressive as well a« conservative. Referring to Mr Whitaker's Bill, ho considered Hare's system as calculated to confer great benefits, and he only regretted the hon. member had not adhered to the lines laid down by Hare, whose system had certainly not been improved by the alt orations. It had been argued that abolition had been achieved by an absolute minority of the colony. Though that was possible under the present system, it would be perfectly impossible under Hare's system. A good deal had been said (especially by tho Attorney-General) that Hare's system tended to return representatives of cliques, who could only represent special views. But take the AttorneyGeneral himself, and the member for Wanganui, who were representatives of special views, such as local option. Could it be said that either of those gentlemen was unable to take a broad and comprehensive view on general questions of policy ? Indeed, enthusiasts were not objectionable, for few great things were done without the aid of enthusiasts.

Mr Rkes supported the amendment, and quoted from Professor Hearn to show the undesirable results which must necessarily arise from the adoption of Hare's system. One evil especially was that it would throw the whole of the electors of the colony into the hands of a few who were anxious for political power, and who chose to employ electioneering agents. Mr Moss said there were so many defects ia the Bill of the member for Waikato, notably one provision, which threw a dangerous amount of power into tr-e hands of Government, that he could not support the Bill. All the country required was contained in the Government Bill. He argued at some length to show there was a good deal of difficulty in working Hare's system. He then proceeded to comment on the possible effect of the Government Bill and their other great measures. He could not sny what results were looming in the distance. One thing was certain, they had thrown down one constitution, and were engaged building up another, and that one had an unmistakeable tendency to centralisation. One bad effect of that was the inevitable growth of a tyranny of under-secretaries, and the only preventative to that was to go back to decentralisation as quickly as possible. Mr Gisbobne objected to the Bill of the member [for Waikato, on account of its not recognising the rights of representation of property. Before making such an'organic change, good reasons ought to be urged, but none had been given. He objected to Hare's system, because it destroyed all electoral enthusiasm, which was the life and soul of our elections. It destroyed the popular voice, and placed elections in the hands of a few skilful manipulators. He thought the Government, however, might with advantage adopt the system of registration in Mr Whitaker's Bill. He would vote for rejection of the Bill.

Mr Tole thought that certain of the provisions of Mr Whitaker's Bill might well be incorporated in the G-overnment measure. As a whole, however, he must oppose the Bill under discussion. He could not approve of the system of nomination, the closing of public houses, and the female vote in the Attorney-General's Bill. The ratepayers' qualification for Maoris, though perhaps was not defensible in theory, ought for the present to be retained. Otherwise the Bill met all the requirements of the country. The dpbate is continuing.