GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume VIII, Issue 1052, 10 November 1877, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

[By Tblegbaph.] [PHB PRESS AGENCY.] Thursday, November 8. THE GOVERNOR AND THE MINISTRY. On the House meeting, Major Atkinson moved the postponement of the Orders of the Day to enable the motion of want of confidence being taken. A discussion on points of order was going on when Sir G. Grey announced a message from the Governor covering correspondence on the privilege case. This was read. After this Mr Stout thought the question had now assumed large proportions. It was no longer between the Governor and the House, but the Governor wished to make it one between the House and the Home Government. He kad not intended to raise any such question. The Governor now wished to make the Secretary of State judge of the privileges of the House. Who was the Secretary of State —he would like to know —that he was to dictate on such a question. He was a person unknown to the constitution, and had no right to interfere. The case also had another aspect. The Governor had assumed the position that the duty of the Ministry was to obey his views, not those of the House. This was at variance with all the principles of constitutional government. He moved—■“ That the correspondence be taken into consideration at 2.30 p.m. to-morrow.” Mr Rolleston suggested Monday. Mr Travers did not understand that the Governor had placed himself in any position antagonistic to the House. It was a question not as between the Governor and the House, but as to the position in which members stood to the Governor and to the House. That position was not a wise one, and Ministers were guilty of disrespect to the House in laying the original papers on the table. They were equally responsible with the Governor for the contents of those papers. It was a transparent patent trap laid by Ministers to catch the Governor. If actuated by honest feelings they should have drawn the Governor’s attention to the remarks to which Mr Stout afterwards took exception. The position of affairs was, on the part of Government, perfectly contemptible. They had dragged the Governor like a red herring across the scent to bring the House into collision with his Excellency in order to save themselves. It was not the question of privilege but a question of constitutional law, which had arisen between himself and his responsible advisers. The question was whether Ministers were not bound either to defend in the House His Excellency’s conduct or else to resign and allow others to take their places. He moved as an amendment —“ That the matter be taken into consideration at 7.30 on Monday.

Mr Rees contended that Mr Travers had entirely mistaken the meaning of the Governor's message. It distinctly referred to the privilege question and not to the position of Ministers. Ho commented strongly on the inconsistency between the views expressed by Mr Travers and those he now expressed. If the Secretary of State was to be made the judge of the privilege of the House they might as well tear up the Constitution .Act. Mr Gisborne did not understand the 1 Governor to wish to refer the privilege case to the Secretary of State, but that his Excellency desired to ask the Secretary of State | whether he had been placed in proper relation to the House by his Ministers. If Ministers could not, or would not, defend the Governor ; in the House, they should resign. ' Mr Sheehan compared Mr Travers to St. Peter, in constantly denying himself. He denied absolutely that the Government had set any trap for the Governor. He called Mr Travers, Mr Gisborne, Mr Rolleston, and those who had deserted, the seven last joints of the Opposition tail, and said they had promised most solemnly after Sir G. Grey was chosen leader to support him throughout the session. Mr Gisborne had gone so far as to say that he would support a ministry of six pairs of old shoes for the session rather than let Major Atkinson back. Ministers declined the position of being bound to support the Governor if he came into conflict with the House contrary to their advice, but if through taking their advice .any conflict arose they would support him to the utmost. He would not agree for a moment to any third party being called in to decide as to the privileges of the House. They were the judges of their own privileges. The Governor was an independent branch of the Legislature, and could be heard just as much if he come into conflict with any other branch, as the Legislative Council would if it came into contact with the House. It was therefore ridiculous for the Governor to compare his position jto that of 'a criminal, and to talk of being condemned unheard. Besides, the Governor had it in his power to dismiss his Ministry if he liked to take the responsibility. He would not for a moment lend himself to any quarrel with the Governor, whom as the connecting link with the House and the country, he regarded as a most valuable feature of the constitution. He and his colleagues had acted in most perfect good faith in the advice they had given to the Governor, and they would rather resign than promote any quarrel of a serious nature between the House and the Governor. He urged postponing the consideration of the matter till to-morrow

evening. Major Atkinsok thought it better to postpone the consideration of the matter until Monday. If the (roverument would take a division on the want of confidence motion tonight, they could have a holiday to morrow. He was prepared to take a division on that question at once and test whether Ministers had a majority or not. If they had, the Opposition would give them every assistance to get the business done, but until this question of who had the majority was settled the

Opposition would not suffer any business of any kind to be done. The majority would no longer consent to be ruled by the Ministry. Sir G. Gbey thought there might be a majority of the House obtained. No one knew now one side or the other, but the real question was who had a majority in the country ? Were the Opposition prepared to appeal to that tribunal to determine who had the majority. He believed the country would support them, and they would use every form of Parliamentary Government to retain the position they were now in. The Opposition had bribed in every direction they possibly could. Major Atkinson moved that the words be taken down. Sir G. Geey thought it would be well if he were allowed to complete the sentence. The words were taken down. Sir G. Gbey was going on to add —By promising subsidies [to -Road Boards and Boroughs. After some further discussion. Major Atkinson expressed himself quite satisfied with the explanation. The Speakee remarked that very wisely the matter would therefore be allowed to drop. Sir G. Gbey continued that he was determined if possible to keep the position he held, because he believed he had the confidence of the people, and that from their past policy it would be dangerous to allow the late Ministry to regain office. He believed great reforms could and would be effected in the colony, and the people be relieved of chains of debts and subserviency to those richer than themselves. He would therefore enter into no such compromise as Major Atkinson wanted, [but would adopt every lawful and legitimate means to retain office until the people were appealed to. He most indignantly denied the statement of Mr Travers about his having laid a trap for the Governor. For himself, he had done his utmost with his colleagues to prevent any request to the Governor to call Mr Wilson to the Council, and had only yielded to repeated representation as to the necessity for efficient legal advice. Then it was only the repeated solicitation of friends which had prevented his doing what he at first intended to do when his advice was refused on unconstitutional grounds, which was to at once resign. He had, however, on reflection, determined it to be his duty to take the course he had since adopted. He did not for a moment believe the Governor intended to force him to resign. Both the Governor and himself were desirous of having the great constitutional question which had arisen settled amicably and for ever, but he could not consent to any third party being brought in to settle a difference of this kind. It should be settled in the colony, and could be so settled without any quarrels, unless one was brought about by such intemperate language as Mr Travers had used. He believed the Governor would be most glad to see this question settled without invoking foreign aid, and it was their bounden duty so to settle it. No men would advise his Excellency more faithfully than his present Ministers, and with this end they would endeavor to bring about an amicable and honorable settlement within the colony. Those who advised differently were no friends of New Zealand.

Mr Reid could not conceive anything more feeble than the memo, from Ministers, and if that was a sample of how such questions could be dealt with in the colony it was not encouraging. It was very fine of Sir G. Grey to talk of relieving the colony of debt, when qhey were commencing by proposing to very largely increase that debt, and were consenting to spend money in all directions when members asked them. Sir G. Q-eey said it was not proposed to ask authority to borrow five millions, although that sum was really wanted to clear the country. Mr Reid continued that he disputed this statement of liabilities. If the Government was popular, it was through the delusive hopes it held out of profuse expenditure, coupled with lessened burdens. What had Sir G. Grey done in office to restore the people their liberties and to render the burthen of taxation more fair ? Sir G. Grey said he would do it if a dissolution were given, so that the people could return members to support him. He (Mr Reid) would prefer some practical scheme, to hearing vague professions of an intention to give everything to everybody at the expense of nobody. Ministers had shown they were not sincere in their expressed desire to pass the Land Bill. He feared there was little chance now of this Bill getting through this session, especially as it had yet to pass the Council. A position acquired by means to which Sir G. Grey owned his was not an enviable but a pitiable one. In defiance of constitutional law and precedent, and of the representatives of the people of whom he was always talking, Sir G. Grey was now persisting in retaining his seat on the Government benches. The House was the representative of the people. Any Government attempting to carry on while in a minority must bo necessarily wasting ime. Such tactics would disgrace any Road Board, and could only be supported by waste of time in speaking against time. Sir G. Grey should set an example, instead of attempting to destroy the Constitution and all Parliamentary Govern ment. Mr Delautoe spoke at considerable length in reply to Mr Reid. A motion for the adjournment of the debate until to-morrow was lost by 31 to 32. It was then agreed to adjourn the debate till Monday. Shortly before one o’clock Sir G. Grey moved the adjournment of the House, on which another long discussion arose in reference to Major Atkinson’s motion at the commencement of the sitting to postpone the Orders of the Day to allow the want of confidence motion to come on. The Speaker ruled that this could only be put by consent of all parties unless notice was given in the regular manner. Mr STOUT taunted the Opposition with their impatient anxiety to return to office. Mr Mooehousb asserted that the Opposition had a working majority of seven in the House. The Government was simply taking advantage of the forms of the House to deprive the country of its natural governorswko had a right to office. The Government were now in a respectable minority, and no amount of talking would alter a single vote. Mr Sheehan, in a long speech, chaffed thi Opposition about motion .No. 3, which hi called a neglected and criminal child. Thi Government had given the Opposition ful opportunity for fair attack, and it had failed Ministers would take their own time ti receive another attack, and Major Atkinson would have to wait the regular course for motion No. 3 to come on unless he would

accept a challege to go to the country to decide between them. He challedged Majoi Atkinson to agree to this. If he did ht (Mr Sheehan) would promise to contest the Egmont district with him, and not to come back to the House if he could not beat him there. The Government knew they had. the country behind them, and if there was to be a fight to the utmost they would carry it on with spirit. They had the right of arranging the order paper for the next three days, and would exercise it, and if the Opposition chose to obstruct public business the Government would give them an opportunity of obstructing some of their own pet measures. Mr Gisbobne admitted that Major Atkinson’s conduct was not conciliatory in opposing the adjournments asked for by the Government, but ho appealed to both sides to come to some compromise, so as not to obstruct the course of public business. The Government should not take advantage of a technicality to avoid testing the opinion of the House. The motion for adjournment was carried, and the House rose at 2.35 a.m.

Feiday, Novembee 9. ME LUSK IN EXPLANATION. The House met at 2.30 p.m. Mr Lusk, as a matter of peisonal explanation, desired to make a statement in regard to the circumstances under which the House had in his absence fined him for a breach of privilege. He did not think the Committee had treated him fairly in not having brought their report before the House before he had left for Auckland. They knew well that he did not admit the justice of their report, which cast gross imputation of untruthfulness on him. He had not the remotest idea the Committee would bring the matter before the House in his absence. He denied that the evidence in any way justified the report. It was on the contrary entirely confirmatory of all his statements. The Committee had not even asked the evidence of the other party to the transaction. He analysed evidence at length and commented on it. He contended that their Standing Orders had been stretched to find him guilty of any breach of privilege. If their orders said one thing in plain language, the House should not interpret them to mean something else, and so prove traps to members. He had not done what he was held guilty of; proper evidence had not been taken; and on these grounds he claimed consideration from the House. He read a letter from Mr Tonks confirmatory of his statements before the committee. Mr Whitaker had received £33 last year from the Thames Borough Council for drafting a Harbor Bill. It was paid to Mr Whitaker and Mr Russell. The House had never treated such conduct as an offence before his case, although it was constantly done. He did not in any way appeal to the House to reverse its decision. He had not done anything morally wrong, or committed any intentional contempt. NEW BILL. The Marine Act Amendment Bill was introduced by Mr Sheehan. On the Orders of the Day being called on, The Speakee said he thought Major Atkinson was entitled to move, according to notice, that all orders of the day be postponed until the House had disposed of the noconfidence motion. Mr Stout raised several points of order against this being done. A long discussion ensued, in which Messrs Rees, Travers, Reynolds, Whitaker, and Sheehan took part. The discussion was proceeding at 5 p.m.